CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll

[X-Act]

Hehe, I always end up posting this in typing threads, because I see it in all typing threads.

"Type 1 hits X better than Type 2"

The above can be the truest thing in the world, but it is sadly not a very good argument to decide whether a Pokemon needs to be Type 1 or Type 2. The reason is simple: CAP11 can be Type 1 all it likes... it doesn't stop it from having moves of Type 2!

The only difference is that the Type 2 move would then lack STAB, in which case I ask: is this really a limitation? I'm fairly sure that the majority of moves used in Pokemon games do not have STAB. Tyranitar uses Earthquake pretty well. Most Water types use Ice Beam quite well. Hidden Power is the epitome of "move that does not (usually) get STAB but is very useful despite having a measly 70 BP".

So don't worry if your type doesn't win and you want moves of that type... it could well happen that it will still get them! :)

 

[HeliosEchi]

One day Togekiss and CAP 11 will be skipping in the park holding hands and shit like best buds until Jolteon comes up in that mug and starts firing off Specs Tbolts. What, is your Fighting type gonna have like 255 base HP and 135 Sp. Def with Natural Cure and recovery? If Ground isn't at least somewhere on this CAP's typing, we've fucked up, and badly.

It could have that or a slight amount of investment in either Atk or SpA and either Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch seeing as STAB of either of these with some offensive investment is enough to kill a fragile little Jolteon.

 

[SJCrew]

@ X-Act: Ground stops lightning from clipping Togekiss's cute little wings and still handles most of its main counters on both the offensive and defensive front. Fighting doesn't help much offensively nor defensively, and only amplifies its weakness to stuff like Zapdos and Rotom-A, who are almost always around the corner when Togekiss wants to do anything. When people think Fighting, they're thinking "oh, ttar and blissey!!!!", when they should be thinking "oh shit, now togekiss's counters can come in even easier!!!".

 

[Venator]

I can't help but wonder if the reason why Fighting has moved up so much is because of Grounds weakness to Ice.

You know, not every perfect duo has to resist EVERYTHING. And so what if Ground syncronizes with other Flying-types well: It won't be OU if it's not Over Used. While this perfect mate will raise the usage of Togekiss, it must also be able to be used with other Pokes, though not as effectively as with Togekiss. Are we also forgetting the idea that this thing can get a second type? That second type can deal with any remaining big problems. Not that unSTAB Special Ice is a real threat to Togekiss, anyway.

I hate typos.

 

[SJCrew]

Like I said earlier, having the odd Mamo or Weavile mess up the dynamic duo is ok because they're not top OU threats (not that they're even guaranteed to, since this CAP can either be too strong, too fast, or too bulky for them to exploit it). There's no such thing as a truly impregnable offensive/defensive core; Pokemon has way too much strategy and variety for that.

 

[firecape]

It could have that or a slight amount of investment in either Atk or SpA and either Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch seeing as STAB of either of these with some offensive investment is enough to kill a fragile little Jolteon.

Please dont post without actually doing a little research, CAP would need 345 Base Attack to always OHKO Jolteon after SR with an unboosted STAB Mach Punch, even with an Adamant nature and 252 Atk EVs according to the Smogon Damage Calculator.

 

[SJCrew]

A 2HKO after SR would work just fine, broski.

 

[tawp64]

I think the CAP should be ground to complement kiss, and others can use Machamp whenever they want and see how it works. Combining typing, natural stats, moves etc. I've taken some of Togekiss' counters and showed which type covers them better.

Lets determine the better choice:

Blissey: Fighting
Cressilia: Electric (Shadow Ball)
Lanturn: Ground
Zapdos: Ground (Stone Edge?)
Bronzong: Fighting (Most likely)
Dragonite: Electirc (HP Ice)
Rotom: Ground
Scizor: Ground (Defensive)
Metagross: Ground
Salamence: Electirc (HP Ice)
Gyarados: Electric
(Lucario): Ground (Defense)
(Gallade): Ground (Defense)

So Blissey and Bronzong(?) are probably the only benefits to a fighting. Electric is a better choice than Fighting! Steel...kinda....no.

 

[X-Act]

@ X-Act: Ground stops lightning from clipping Togekiss's cute little wings and still handles most of its main counters on both the offensive and defensive front. Fighting doesn't help much offensively nor defensively, and only amplifies its weakness to stuff like Zapdos and Rotom-A, who are almost always around the corner when Togekiss wants to do anything. When people think Fighting, they're thinking "oh, ttar and blissey!!!!", when they should be thinking "oh shit, now togekiss's counters can come in even easier!!!".

I think you misunderstood my post completely. :(

I agree with everything you said above, except for the 'offensively' bit (for both types). My point was: what stops us from having a Fighting Pokemon with Earthquake (Machamp), or a Ground Pokemon with Focus Punch (Rhyperior)? If people are voting Fighting because they want STAB Fighting moves, or they're voting for Ground because they want STAB Ground moves, then that's surely NOT the reason to vote for a main type. As you said, the typing of a Pokemon mostly provides the defensive aspects of that Pokemon: your argument above revolved mostly about the defensive aspects of Fighting and Ground. That's how we should think, not as "<Typing> is good because it hits <Pokemon> very hard!".

 

[Brave]

One day Togekiss and CAP 11 will be skipping in the park holding hands and shit like best buds until Jolteon comes up in that mug and starts firing off Specs Tbolts. What, is your Fighting type gonna have like 255 base HP and 135 Sp. Def with Natural Cure and recovery? If Ground isn't at least somewhere on this CAP's typing, we've fucked up, and badly.

note that it dosent have to be a fighting type. Electric would work just as well, with great STAB and resistance to all of the electric attacks Togekiss hates. Besides that, it lures in ground types who come expecting to EQ the crap out of this only for togekiss to come in and destory it.

And i'll say this again: i know this is the poll for Main Type, but i think that for the second, if of course we pick Electric for the main, that Poison should be considered, as it shuts down all of the fighting types people are talking about and acts as an even greater lure for Ground types. besides its weakness to ground, the only other type it would be weak to is Psychic, which barely appears at all in the current OU meatgame, aside from perhaps Starmie. and of course if something tries to poison Togekiss then switch in this and toxic is menaingless, not to mention that if there are any toxic spikes on the ground they'll be soaked up too. Really, the only option is Electric/Poison.

 

[Vaz]

Ground Type is what the Main Type of this CaP should be. Ground provides such a better use over the other types as stated and proved by many. The main factors that make Ground a more dominant choice over other types is the fact that:

- Ground resists two out of three of Togekiss's weaknesses.

- Resists Stealth Rock damage, a vital instrument to allow it to constantly switch in to Togekiss's enemies.

- Provids much versitality when choosing a second type.

 

[firecape]

Jolteon had no defence in that calculation, and how is a 2HKO good because Jolteon cant really switch on anything but electric attacks so that isn't very realistic. Also, im not sure if the calc is wrong or something, but it says CS Hitmonchan does 34.7% - 41.3% with Iron Fist.

 

[Venator]

What moves does Fighting lure, anyway? Flying, and Psychic, neither Togekiss resists.

What does Ground lure? Grass, Water, Ice and Bug. Togekiss loves Grass and Bug attacks and can handle unSTAB Special Ice attacks. The only problem here is Water but a secondary type solves that problem readily.

So what if Fighting hits Rock, Dark, Normal (a type not too common in OU), Steel and Ice for SE damage. It's resisted by Posion, Flying, Dub and Psychic.
Ground hits Rock, Steel, Poison, Electric, Fire and Poison for SE. It is resisted by Bug and Grass.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

Fighting doesn't lure bug or poison, since it resists bug and poison is a horrible offensive type.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

"what gives togekiss problems?" rotom-a, zapdos, and jolteon come to mind. so why exactly are people voting fighting, and how did fighting even make it into this poll?

i voted for ground. ground stops those huge electric moves, and with decent sdef, can easily beat up these three pokemon. like reachzero said, ice attacks are pretty weak (most of them have 70 base power)

Voted Electric.

But from the looks of it this will be a battle between choosing "Ground CAP #3" or "Fighting CAP #4."

oh but electric cap #3 is ok

 

[SJCrew]

I think you misunderstood my post completely. :(

I agree with everything you said above, except for the 'offensively' bit (for both types). My point was: what stops us from having a Fighting Pokemon with Earthquake (Machamp), or a Ground Pokemon with Focus Punch (Rhyperior)? If people are voting Fighting because they want STAB Fighting moves, or they're voting for Ground because they want STAB Ground moves, then that's surely NOT the reason to vote for a main type. As you said, the typing of a Pokemon mostly provides the defensive aspects of that Pokemon: your argument above revolved mostly about the defensive aspects of Fighting and Ground. That's how we should think, not as "<Typing> is good because it hits <Pokemon> very hard!".

I understood your post perfectly and it's wrong. We need both offensive and defensive synergy because its practical and that's what our Topic Leader wants for this CAP. Good STAB is important in OU for optimum offensive capabilities, as that Machamp's EQ won't be able to KO Metagross without STAB under its belt.

I don't want Fighting to be the main typing for this CAP because it won't help nearly as much as Ground will. If you want that Fighting type to take a Specs Tbolt constantly and threaten Jolteon out, you'll need to give it incredible Sp. Def and a recovery move, as well as the offensive capacity to OHKO it no matter what. That's way too presumptuous.

We don't need a "pretty good mate", we need the perfect mate. If we don't invest our efforts toward making CAP11 form the best overall dynamic with Togekiss possible, this concept is both a failure and a waste of our time.

 

[Venator]

@Viashino wizardhttp://www.smogon.com/forums/member.php?u=16799: I included it because those types resist Fighting. Shall I edit it?

 

[SJCrew]

Uh, yeah? It's not just about which types resists what, it's about which Pokemon are using those types and whether or not they'll be able to threaten both Togekiss and this CAP.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

I understood your post perfectly and it's wrong. We need both offensive and defensive synergy because its practical and that's what our Topic Leader wants for this CAP. Good STAB is important in OU for optimum offensive capabilities, as that Machamp's EQ won't be able to KO Metagross without STAB under its belt.

I don't want Fighting to be the main typing for this CAP because it won't help nearly as much as Ground will. If you want that Fighting type to take a Specs Tbolt constantly and threaten Jolteon out, you'll need to give it incredible Sp. Def and a recovery move, as well as the offensive capacity to OHKO it no matter what. That's way too presumptuous.

We don't need a "pretty good mate", we need the perfect mate. If we don't invest our efforts toward making CAP11 form the best overall dynamic with Togekiss possible, this concept is both a failure and a waste of our time.

1: SpecsJolt is NOT THAT COMMON.
2: Ground makes CAP11 a better partner for Gyarados than Togekiss, something that should be avoided.
3: Secondary type can make CAP11 resistant to Electric, should Fighting be the chosen main type.
4: Nothing is or can be perfect; besides, many of the common duos have faults (SkarmBliss fails to MixApe, for example).

 

[TubaKing]

It's very understandable that Ground and Fighting are only currently nine votes apart.
I have very mixed feelings about having voted for Fighting.
Both Fighting and Ground have their merits, but ultimately I picked Fighting for all the same reasons FlareBlitz did:

Voted Fighting, for a number of reasons:

1) Fighting helps our partner switch in to Tyranitar, who greatly threatens Togekiss unless it runs Aura Sphere, which not every Togekiss does/should. Even with Aura Sphere a partner who can switch in to ScarfTar or CurseTar (who survives an Aura Sphere and KOs back) is valuable. Edit: After doing some calcs it turns out that any Tyranitar with some HP investment will survive Aura Sphere, so this is actually a major threat.

2) Fighting helps our partner quickly deal with Blissey, who walls NP Kiss.

3) Fighting has excellent offensive synergy with Flying. Together the STABs are resisted by...Rotom and Zapdos? And that's it. Since we're making an offensive combination this part is important.

4) Fighting plays very well with possible secondary typings. It has few readily exploitable weaknesses and a few important resistances already, meaning it's a very neutral and versatile type. We could pair it with all sorts of things, depending on the direction we ultimately decide to take this in. While Ground is also somewhat versatile, it is limited in this case by its weakness to Ice and Water, two fairly common offensive attacking types. Our secondary typing would need to cover that weakness if we want this to be successful, which would greatly limit our options.

Keep in mind that we want this Pokemon to not partner with every single flying type in the game, but with Togekiss specifically.

 

[tawp64]

Lucario Guy @ Just by the typing, we can't determine whether it will be a perfect mate for Gyarados or Togekiss. Ground will be the best typing for Togekiss anyway, so there's nothing you can do about making a perfect mate that dosen't help Gyarados.

Tubaking @ 1) Tyranitar is also beaten by defensive ground types

2) Blissey is probably the only reason to make it fighting type.

3) Ground generally has a better synergy with flying than fighting does.

4) Ice and Water are more special than physical. Even physical water and ice moves are sponged by togekiss.

 

[SJCrew]

1: SpecsJolt is NOT THAT COMMON.
2: Ground makes CAP11 a better partner for Gyarados than Togekiss, something that should be avoided.
3: Secondary type can make CAP11 resistant to Electric, should Fighting be the chosen main type.
4: Nothing is or can be perfect; besides, many of the common duos have faults (SkarmBliss fails to MixApe, for example).

Who cares about how common something is? New Pokemon, new metagame. Once this CAP comes out, it will become compulsory on our teams right along with Togekiss, so Specs Jolt gets to rise out of the ashes and ruin everything.

Besides, the point is not about Specs Jolt, that's just an example. It can be Specs Rotom, Specs Zapdos, standard Zapdos/Rotom, or anything with a strong Electric move. Electric Pokemon give Togekiss more hell than anything else and they need to be addressed first and foremost.

We don't know what the second typing is nor the movepool, so we don't know if it covers Gyara's ass too or anything. Quite frankly, I don't even give a damn if it does; that just means this CAP can function outside of partnering with Togekiss, which is a good thing if we actually want to create a viable OU of sorts.

 

[VulcanFenrir]

I honestly only see Ground/Steel being the only types on the list to complement Togekiss.

For one, they both resist 2 of Togekiss' weaknesses (Rock and Ice for Steel, Electric and Rock for Steel) however Ground actually gets an immunity to one. But Ground comes with 3 weaknesses, 2 resistances, and 1 immunity. However one of the resistances is to Poison, a VERY uncommon attack type in the current OU metagame. By choosing ground you now have a shared weakness of Ice, which can be covered later but can also be somewhat annoying. Between Ground and Flying (Normal has none, of course. Except for ghost) you only get 5 resistances, leaving quite the open attacks that would have to be covered in secondary typing and even then, unless Steel was the seconday, it wouldn't resist as much as Steel does just by itself.

Now let's look at steel. Steel comes with 11 resistances, 3 weaknesses, and 1 immunity, granted the immunity is to poison it still prevents toxic and toxic spikes meaning both pokemon could switch in should Toxic Spikes be up and have no consequences from it. Steel has the weakness of Fighting, Ground and Fire which Togekiss is immune to one and takes neutral from both, leaving only electric as super effective damage to Togekiss and neutral to Togekiss, and Fire, Water, and Fighting as the only types not resisted/immuned.

Now I know I'm not the only person when I say we don't need another Steel type pokemon in the Metagame, but for the purpose of this project I feel it is needed. One of the reasons CeleTran works very well is that it resists all types except for Rock. Steel provides just so many resistances for Togekiss to work off of, seeing as it only resists 2 and has only 2 immunities.

So my vote goes to Steel for a very nice defensive typing.

 

[danmantincan]

So many people, for some reason, keep saying that they are going with Fighting instead of Ground because they feel that it would become a partner for the other flying Pokemon. If we look at the flying Pokemon that are ahead of Togekiss in the June stats, few of them, if any, would appreciate a ground type partner.

-Salamence: It wants a Steel partner to take Dragon and Ice attacks, while luring Ground, Fighting and Fire attacks. It does not want a partner that adds to its 4x Ice weakness.
-Gyarados: Sure, Ground gives and immunity to Electric and a resistance to Ground, however, bulky waters are common switch-ins to Gyarados, who would then eliminate CAP11 with STAB Surfs. HP Electric Celebi also laughs as it Grass Knot/Leaf Storms CAP11.
-Gliscor: Really?
-Skarmory: Ground removes the fear of Electric attacks, but Skarmory is still the target of many special attacks, such as STAB Surfs, and assuming CAP11 is going to have Defense>Sp. Defense, it can be 2HKOd by powerful neutral special attacks.
-Dragonite: Refer to Salamence.
-Zapdos: Doesn't need the Electric immunity since it only takes neutral damage and can make it a resistance if it is able to Roost first.
So saying that it will become the partner for other flying types is not true.

The movepool/ability/stat spread can also reflect the needs of Togekiss instead of the other flyers. I would assume that CAP11 will be better off on the physical side of the defensive spectrum to try and compensate for Togekiss' mediocre defense, but Gliscor, Zapdos, Salamence and Gyarados are able to stand there own in that department.
Some have said that Ground will do little to help against Zapdos and Rotom-A. As familyguyman said, we can easily throw Mold Breaker in as an Ability, which gives the big FU to Rotom-A. What competitively viable Ground Pokemon does not carry Stone Edge? None, so it would be a given on CAP11 (if it is Ground), meaning it can to heavy damage to Zapdos, and if it Roosts, it gets hit with a STAB Earthquake. Tyranitar gets hit with EQ, and Blissey loses a good chunk of health everytime it is hit with a STAB physical attack, coming off a respectable Attack stat.

 

[SJCrew]

I honestly only see Ground/Steel being the only types on the list to complement Togekiss.

For one, they both resist 2 of Togekiss' weaknesses (Rock and Ice for Steel, Electric and Rock for Steel) however Ground actually gets an immunity to one. But Ground comes with 3 weaknesses, 2 resistances, and 1 immunity. However one of the resistances is to Poison, a VERY uncommon attack type in the current OU metagame. By choosing ground you now have a shared weakness of Ice, which can be covered later but can also be somewhat annoying. Between Ground and Flying (Normal has none, of course. Except for ghost) you only get 5 resistances, leaving quite the open attacks that would have to be covered in secondary typing and even then, unless Steel was the seconday, it wouldn't resist as much as Steel does just by itself.

Now let's look at steel. Steel comes with 11 resistances, 3 weaknesses, and 1 immunity, granted the immunity is to poison it still prevents toxic and toxic spikes meaning both pokemon could switch in should Toxic Spikes be up and have no consequences from it. Steel has the weakness of Fighting, Ground and Fire which Togekiss is immune to one and takes neutral from both, leaving only electric as super effective damage to Togekiss and neutral to Togekiss, and Fire, Water, and Fighting as the only types not resisted/immuned.

Now I know I'm not the only person when I say we don't need another Steel type pokemon in the Metagame, but for the purpose of this project I feel it is needed. One of the reasons CeleTran works very well is that it resists all types except for Rock. Steel provides just so many resistances for Togekiss to work off of, seeing as it only resists 2 and has only 2 immunities.

So my vote goes to Steel for a very nice defensive typing.

You're thinking like a competitive novice. It's not just about the stats, it's about the Pokemon. We absolutely cannot have this CAP weak to Fighting because Togekiss can't vouch for it when any one of OU's Fighting types come to ruin it. That's far too wide a spectrum of Pokemon that break this combination for it to be effective.

I agree that we want a Ground type and something to lure Ground attacks, but Steel, in the grand scheme of things, will do more harm than good. Trust me.