BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[NoUserName]

What Bronzong set do you use?

I think Gyro Ball, HP Ice, Earthquake and Filler, like Stealth Rock/Toxic or even using it with CB and Trick.

I agree Bronzong is not bad really, not as good as it used to be in 4th gen, but not bad. It counters pretty well some of common Pokes, like Gliscor and Fire Blast-less Tyranitar and everpresent Mamoswine.

The biggest drawback of Bronzong is, like Porygon2, it could be a sitting duck against certain Pokes, if not Toxiced on the switch.

 

[Skore]

Is it me or are people using Spikes and Toxic spikes less these days?
Most seem content to get SR up and leave it at that.

 

[Shouting]

I'm actually using the trick room version. Trick Room, Gyro Ball, Earthquake, HP Ice (or Hypnosis, maybe even Zen Heabutt) with a macho brace. It hits hard and destroys offensive teams.

Now that I think about it, a Choice Band set sounds good, but it won't outspeed things, which is a bummer.

Is it me or are people using Spikes and Toxic spikes less these days?
Most seem content to get SR up and leave it at that.

Yes, I've found this true too. Even things that in theory should carry spikes (Ferrothorn, Forretress, etc.) are either not carrying it or just not using it. Maybe it's because starmie is fairly popular?

 

[Nitrous]

I'm reconsidering toxic spikes, actually, because tentacruel is so common these days, and easily absorbs them, and steel types are rampant. I'm running a gravity team, though, so might as well try it out a while longer.

PS: jeez, I barely recognize anyone here since the last time I hung around.

 

[ANinyMouse]

PS: jeez, I barely recognize anyone here since the last time I hung around.

I remember you :)

I don't really play the simulator - not because I dislike it, no, I just hate having to play in front of the computer. That's it, really. I love that it shaves time and let's you get right into battles, but I like the ability to play without an internet connection better. Thus, I play the actual game. I thus don't have any current metagame experience, since BW2 isn't out in English yet.

All that to ask this: I was wondering... is stall dead because of the therians? Stall in weather seems more than possible, but the perfect storm of attributes that the therians posses seems to put massive offensive pressure on the opponent. Tornadus isn't afraid of Stealth Rock anymore, and Tornadus muscles through a metagame in spite of Electric immunities and resistances...

 

[doughboy]

All that to ask this: I was wondering... is stall dead because of the therians? Stall in weather seems more than possible, but the perfect storm of attributes that the therians posses seems to put massive offensive pressure on the opponent. Tornadus isn't afraid of Stealth Rock anymore, and Tornadus muscles through a metagame in spite of Electric immunities and resistances...

Stall isn't completely dead, but it is really difficult to pull off so it is pretty off now so it is pretty much non-existant. Thunderus and Tonadus-T have very, very few real counters. Thunderus isn't even that big of deal for stall its Torndaus-T because Thunderus is vulnerable to residual damage!

For starters Tornadus isn't weak to any hazards at all, it doesn't care for SR because of Regenerator. So taking it out through repeated switches is a no go. Very few Pokemon in OU actually resist flying and out of those who don't fewer still can sponge it. The problem is that LO Tornadus just can smash the almost all the pokes who can take repeated Hurricanes. The pokes who you would want to use on a stall team that can take both LO Hurricane+Superpower is Jirachi, Chansey, and Sp. Def Jellicent/Sp. Def Skarmory (just barely, any hax=death). But when you have to switch in your one thing into Tornadus-T constantly, he can wear you down faster than you can him because of Regenerator.

This isn't even considering its filler move, Taunt or Heat Wave, and Hurricane's retarded confusion hax :|

 

[Luigi player]

Is it me or are people using Spikes and Toxic spikes less these days?
Most seem content to get SR up and leave it at that.

Not sure if it's true... I still see everything. (Toxic Spikes is pretty rare, but it always was like that, maybe a little bit less now...)

Although I myself mostly use SR, because it hits EVERYTHING (getting rid of sashes) and is just really strong against flying types. It's important against Dragonite/Salamence and also Cloyster and Volcarona... oh and the Therian Formes too, of course.

Sometimes people have poison types so it's almost useless to even set up since they'll just come in and eat them up again. And there are so many flying and steel types. It always seems to me that Toxic Spikes would only affect like 2 Pokemon of my opponent which isn't that appealing (unless they're REALLY annoying to my team). At least they affect weather starters...
Spikes take a long time to set up and don't hit flying types..

SR definitely seems like the best choice there.

 

[Electrolyte]

@Electrolyte
What item is attached to Mamoswine in your calculations?
I typically use life orb, and that seems to do the trick for me, and if your calcs don't include that, then that makes those potential OHKO's for sure. Even Expert Belt could make those hits much more likely to be OHKO's because those moves are super effective.

Lol, sash. I use endeavor+ice shard. I like the idea of an expert belt though. LO won't work as well because after Thundy Focus blast and one round of LO, Mamo goes down.
Love the avatar btw, I am an avid player of minecraft myself.

@LuigiPlayer: Many people run more offensive teams nowadays- because the sweepers are getting stronger but the walls aren't getting very much bulkier. I think even SR is quite rare nowadays, as players are getting more and more offensively inclined.

 

[Thaldios]

Is it me or are people using Spikes and Toxic spikes less these days?
Most seem content to get SR up and leave it at that.

I find this largely true. As a veteran of Rain, I cut Spikes on every Ferrothorn I use, pretty much. SR is all I have time for. I see not many Tentacruel nowadays, not sure why that is. Maybe the Thundurus-T running around. I think the only Spikes I see is a random Forretress that gets a "once-in-a-blue-moon" chance. Skarmory is just about sacked in this metagame because of all the Rain threats, so there's your best Spiker gone to Timbuktu. Plus with SR as a tutor move, so much more can now be viable setters (PH Gliscor). When you have as fast-paced a metagame as this, SR is all you can get before you become set-up bait to a Salamence or other.
:evan:

 

[Bad Ass]

i run deoxys d + specs politoed + 3 batshit rain sweepers + tr np cofagrius and it works great! spikes are incredibly hard to play around tbh

 

[Electrolyte]

i run deoxys d + specs politoed + 3 batshit rain sweepers + tr np cofagrius and it works great! spikes are incredibly hard to play around tbh

A lot of the tier's premier pokemon get around Spikes, wether it be through typing, levitate, or air balloon.
Air balloon

Hide

Heatran
Magnezone
(probably some more I've overlooked

Flying type

Hide

Tornadus-T
Thunderus-T
Landorus-T
Gliscor
Gyarados

Levitate

Hide

Gengar
Lati@s
Rotom W

I probably missed a shit ton of pokemon but that's enough to prove that Spikes aren't what they used to be.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Spikes still has merit because a lot of the more defensive pokemon around that stop sweeps are actually effected by spikes, so it can be a pretty good idea to get them up. Its still a critical part of wall breaking.

There are honestly to many steel types around though on top of flying types that don't give a shit about poison, and remember you have to set up both layers for it to be effective, no easy task.

Rocks are probably being pushed more now though because of the prevalence of thundurus and tornadus. Yes tornadus isn't that weak to them, but its still going to be at 75% every time it comes in.

 

[wobbahax]

Spikes still has merit because a lot of the more defensive pokemon around that stop sweeps are actually effected by spikes, so it can be a pretty good idea to get them up. Its still a critical part of wall breaking.

There are honestly to many steel types around though on top of flying types that don't give a shit about poison, and remember you have to set up both layers for it to be effective, no easy task.

Rocks are probably being pushed more now though because of the prevalence of thundurus and tornadus. Yes tornadus isn't that weak to them, but its still going to be at 75% every time it comes in.

Adding to this I've noticed an increase in magic bounce users (espeon and xatu specifically) and they pretty much make people reevaluate the usefulness of rocks/spikes. Also things like Lum berry ttar can set up while others use entry hazards.

Tornadus doesn't care because of regenerator, and Thundurus can come in on electric moves to heal off SR.

 

[NoUserName]

Stop saying that Tornadus doesn't care about SR. It's impossible to negate that helps him a lot, but it is a lot more "easy" to handle recovering 8% than 33% on the switch.

Stalls teams have a hard time against Thundurus-T, however, NP I-don't-have-any-reliable-counters are pretty rare right now.


What about the pony? Is Keldeo usually used in rain?

 

[doughboy]

Stop saying that Tornadus doesn't care about SR. It's impossible to negate that helps him a lot, but it is a lot more "easy" to handle recovering 8% than 33% on the switch.

Stalls teams have a hard time against Thundurus-T, however, NP I-don't-have-any-reliable-counters are pretty rare right now.


What about the pony? Is Keldeo usually used in rain?

It cares less about them when it is a defensive/stall team's best method of trying to get damage on him seeing as how many defensive attacks are weak. Using "doesn't care about SR" was rash to say. What I mean it is more of nuisance to it more than "I really need SR off the field as a priority" compared to something like Thunderus.

 

[wobbahax]

Stop saying that Tornadus doesn't care about SR. It's impossible to negate that helps him a lot, but it is a lot more "easy" to handle recovering 8% than 33% on the switch.

Stalls teams have a hard time against Thundurus-T, however, NP I-don't-have-any-reliable-counters are pretty rare right now.


What about the pony? Is Keldeo usually used in rain?

Yes, most are used with Drizzle politoed to fire off boosted STAB hydro pumps.

 

[NoUserName]

Yes, there is a little difference.

I was doing calcs for the post of counter the mon, which now is Thundurus-T, because I am not going to post any counter, I consider interesant show them here:

The calcs are using Timid, not Modest.

Gastrodon 252 HP / 252 Sp Def +Sp Def against Thundurus-T +Sp 252 Sp Att:

Focus Blast: 27%-32%

Ice Beam: 51%-60%

Scald: 32%-38%

Most important, Gastrodon with EQ and non hindering attack nature deals a 26% to 252 HP Keldeo, thus, always breaks its Substitutes.

Keldeo with 0 HP, 31%-38%

Keldeo does to Gastrodon with Secret Sword: 44%-53% supposing 252 Sp Att Ev's of the pony and non Sp Att boosting nature.

Also, I have found the best counter to Thundurus-T, bar Shedinja(lol):

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Trace
252 HP / 252 Def or 252 Sp Def / 4 Spd

- Psychic
- Will-O-Wisp
- Filler
- Filler

Thundurus-T only deals to it between 27,3% and 32,5% without a Sp Def Evs and non boosting nature, when Life Orbed when Gardevoir deals to him 50%-59%, a clear 2KO without Rocks and no-Leftovers on Thundurus-T.
With boosting nature and 252 Evs in Sp Def: 20%-26%

Ok, if Thundurus-T uses Nasty Plot on the switch, and if Gardevoir has no Sp Def Ev's and not-boostering nature, Gardevoir will die, but Thundurus will be around 30% of health due to 2 Life Orb damage and Psychic damage.

WoW is almost needed for to damage those annoying Scizor and Tyranitar trying to pursue it and Psychic is necessary for "reliable" STAB and a way for to hit things. WoW isn't much expected on this thing.

The two slots are very customizable, because Gardevoir has a huge supporting movepool. Taunt avoids hazards, recovers and slow set-uppers, Wish/Pain Split for healing(sadly, Wish is almost needed with Protect which is annoying in a Pokemon which suffers a 4MSS)
Heal Bell to clean status, specially on Stall Teams, Reflect/Light Screen, Toxic, Torment+Protect(used against CB Scizor on the switch and force it out) HP Fire, HP Ice, Focus Blast for Heatran and Tyranitar, the underrated Healing Wish, Charm, Thunder Wave...

The main problem is trying it to work in the metagame. It sounds great in paper, but...(I haven't tested it yet) Trapping Pursuit users would be advisable(in fact, it's easy to trap them, Dug for Tyranitar and Magnezone/ton for Scizor)

Edit: I have realized that it can learn Disable, Protect+Disable for Pursuit. it looks curious.

 

[Marzbar]

I find Toxic Spikes very useful in the current metagame. A double layer of toxic spikes prevents Pokemon from powering up for a sweep. After a few swords dancers etc, their HP will be low enough to be killed by anything faster. Toxic spikes is also useful against bulky waters, Chansey and Blissey, and anything with a focus sash. And if you have any Pokemon with Protect or Substitute or Leech Seed, you can stall things to death.

Only problem is Tentacruel, Venusaur and Toxicroak.

 

[EonX]

There's also the myriad of Flyers, Levitators, and Steels. Not to mention the fact that most Choice users dgaf about 2 layers for the most part anyway since they very rarely stay in but for about 2 turns at a time. 1 layer would bother them a lot more than 2. Sure, Toxic Spikes can be useful and are great against certain things, but SR and Spikes just seem a lot better due to the immediate impact they have on anything that switches in (obviously Flyers and Levitators dgaf about Spikes)

 

[Marzbar]

Yeah I agree that Spikes and Stealth Rock are better. I just think all of them have their uses.

 

[GDK]

Yeah toxik spikes are meh since it correspond well to stall teams and they are really hard to make.

Even spikes, though good, is hard to set up entirely.

 

[Count Serperior]

GENESECT to be released on Wifi on August 11 for BW2 owners.

 

[Immoral Wombat]

GENESECT to be released on Wifi on August 11 for BW2 owners.

source

 

[Bruno Magno]

Question: With all the BW2 changes, will Weezing's usage improve? It walls almost completely Gliscor, is immune at Earthquake (thus making it a good switch-in to Mamoswine and Landorus), can spread Will-O-Wisp, has access to Thunderbolt for the evercommon bulky waters, and has Pain Split if things are getting bad.

What do you think?

 

[BurningMan]

Question: With all the BW2 changes, will Weezing's usage improve? It walls almost completely Gliscor, is immune at Earthquake (thus making it a good switch-in to Mamoswine and Landorus), can spread Will-O-Wisp, has access to Thunderbolt for the evercommon bulky waters, and has Pain Split if things are getting bad.

What do you think?

That is really unlikely Weezing, simply because there are so many better physical walls. It has a bad stab and unstabbed attacks from a 85 base SpA aren't hurting anything, it also lacks useful resistances outside of fighting (Bug Resistance is also nice, but the only Bug Move is U-Turn wich means the opponent gets in a counter) and Pain Split sucks as recovery for defensive Pokemon.
Sure it does well against some common threats, but the problem is that it is horrible against the rest of the metagame wich can easily set-up on poor old Weezing (really anything with Substitute/Lum Berry laughs at him).

Edit: fuck yeah Genesect