BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Princess Bubblegum]

I don't care about UU and below, but last time there was a discussion in OU about banning sand veil and snow cloak, the populace seemed to want to go backwards and instead unban evasion items. Unless the council decides to totally go against the whole of the populace completely, or if opinion has changed that much, I don't see sand veil ever being banned.

Again this isn't something to be discussed though for a month or two when the metagame stabilizes.

 

[Taylor]

For the community's sake, I would like to announce that I plan on a cohesive explanation as to why I firmly believe suspects who were banished during the first half of BW deserve a second chance now BW2 is official. As of now, I will repeat what has been said time and time again: do not discuss bans/unbans until there is a dedicated thread related to the topic at hand.

Another staff member may introduce Smogon's "plan of action" regarding suspects and reintroducing them into the tier. I ensure you all we have acknowledged the demand for a retest; hell, I am one of those who strongly desires a more open metagame with a wide variety of team building capabilites.

In short, I'd rather Excadrill be retested under the assumption you can use him in any team made, whether or not that is sandstorm. You're still looking at Skarmory as a hard counter (in theory, it's not an order to use Brave Bird and it's very unlucky to flinch twice in a row to LO Rock Slide), and the likes of Techniloom and Azumarill are solid checks. You can run Excadrill in hail, set up Stealth Rock, provide your team with Rapid Spin support and should you struggle versus a well-oiled sand team, your Excadrill can thrive in such a weather: all for one slot in your party. Is this bad for competitive Pokemon? No.

Rain is undoubtedly the focal point of BW2 with Thundurus-t, Tornadus-t and Keldeo sparkling under that nightmare of a weather. If everyone fears sand will dominate Standard OU if we were to retest Excadrill and Garchomp, then I sincerely believe you do not play this game enough to warrant a valuable opinion on suspects as a whole. What is wrong with including Excadrill in rain? Or Garchomp?

Other than Garchomp and Excadrill, regular Thundurus is another suspect I insist we all take some time to think about the benefits they would have on BW2 OU as it is now.

Warning: This is just a taste of what's to come, but I expect you all to hold off responding to my proposal until we have a definitive thread with details as to how we wish to carry the metagame forward. For then we will be able to take this discussion to a whole new level and I expect both sides of the argument to put their ideas forth by predicting the outcome of these unbans and their effect they would have on Standard OU, not why they're "BROKEN" before even tested. Who really knows what is broken anymore? Do not answer this question!

 

[superbadd]

I tried a bulky set with rough skin chomp once in dw and it doesn't work nearly as well on paper. Practically everything carries an Ice or dragon move to use on it making it difficult to set up a sub.

Once the set is figured out it doesn't take long till something like cloyster comes in and destroy chomp.

A set w/Dragon tail/Earthquake/(toxic/stealthrock)/substitute would be most viable.

I tried out a similar set a long time ago b/c stall teams had difficulty w/excadrill, blaziken, and HO sand and physically defensive/mixed defensive comp did a good job at checking these things.

But the two threats mentioned above won't be coming into standard anytime soon and outside of that, this set it is outclassed by parashuffler dnite. Who has better bulk, a reliable recovery move and can be much more bulky with multiscale intact.

It does have a few things over dragonite though such as SR resistance, better speed, and with the debut of BW2 it can use SR legally with rough skin. But it finds difficulty setting up and is more often worn down due to lack of recovery. Not sure how something like rest-talk would work though...

Overall it just seems like something tailored to take out specific threats and isn't much viable outside of that.

 

[Bruno Magno]

I liked HustleClaws Durant a lot. Stone Edge is pretty bad on it, and Jellicent still remains an hard counter (damages through Scald and Will-O-Wisp, prevents boosts with Taunt, has Recover to let Durant suicide with Life Orb), and, especially, Stone Edge's accuracy after a boost gets to a mere 85%, and it takes two HoneClaws to get perfectly accurate, i don't think it's worthy the slot

 

[Earthduster]

What does Durant do that SD Scizor doesn't? Having +2 BP more than makes up for the speed difference, although I guess it lets you outspeed Tran & non scarfed Magnezone.

 

[ginganinja]

Im not quite sure how to respond to Taylor, when one mod says don't talk bout unbaning / banning, and then another mod proposes an idea unbanning Excadrill and other suspects I am unsure what to do lol. With this in mind, I won't really respond to your proposal Taylor, however, I do want your proposal (if im allowed) to factor in "whats changed" since 'X pokemon' was banned. For example, Excadrill really only got Tech Loom as a new Revenge Killer (according to your post), and gained Iron Head which means that it has an even easier time against Gliscor.

While its true that Skarmory is a decent counter, according to the Honko Calc, +2 RS has a 22% chance to 2KO after SR, which means that mathmatically, on occasion just a single flinch will end you. Even if Rock Slide failed to flinch, what exactly are you doing back? You can WW it out but its hardly a proper solution, when Excadrill weakened you enough to try for a sweep R2, and if you Roost stall to burn out LO, then the odds only increase that you get flinched, or hit with a Critical Hit, or so on.

With all that said, I don't actually want to fully argue all this, I just want to make the point that personally, if I wanted to be open about allowing previous ubers into OU, I kinda want to know what makes them less "broken" than they were deemed before.

I will let you make your argument first tho, my apologies if I derailed.

EDIT

Just realised I just came off as kinda elitist, might go back and edit to change the tone lol. Sorry.

 

[RitterCat]

Im not quite sure how to respond to Taylor, when one mod says don't talk bout unbaning / banning, and then another mod proposes an idea unbanning Excadrill and other suspects I am unsure what to do lol.

As of now, I will repeat what has been said time and time again: do not discuss bans/unbans until there is a dedicated thread related to the topic at hand.

...

Warning: This is just a taste of what's to come, but I expect you all to hold off responding to my proposal until we have a definitive thread with details as to how we wish to carry the metagame forward. For then we will be able to take this discussion to a whole new level and I expect both sides of the argument to put their ideas forth by predicting the outcome of these unbans and their effect they would have on Standard OU, not why they're "BROKEN" before even tested. Who really knows what is broken anymore? Do not answer this question!

I don't see where your confusion comes from :/

 

[Lee]

your best bet at convincing me (and doubtless, many others) to get on board with an excadrill unbanning is increasing the versatility in the pool of Rapid Spinners available. What really kills OU for me is the imbalance in difficulty between setting up entry hazards and removing entry hazards. if you want your matches to last longer than 25~ turns you're basically forced to shoehorn a starmie/forry/cruel/donphan into your team lest you get raped by the SR/Spike spam that infests the metagame. Excadrill is hand down the best spinner in the game and i'd claim that the stagnancy he caused is nothing compared to what this entry-hazard plagued metagame is generating...

 

[Emperor]

Big news!

http://www.serebii.net/black2white2/globallinkpokemon.shtml

Shadow tag Gothitelle

 

[superbadd]

This is great news for UU's physical attackers! Goth can trap and kill slowbro, Amoongus, and gligar! Now with trick it can decimate UU stall. Lovin' this.

 

[UltiMario]

Note that BW2 gave Gothitelle Trick. We have our first Trick Trapper entering the metagame. Not to mention Gothitelle has enough bulk to take special hits too.

It's hard to call at this moment. She honestly could end up being a monster.

 

[Eeveelover824]

I don't care about UU and below, but last time there was a discussion in OU about banning sand veil and snow cloak, the populace seemed to want to go backwards and instead unban evasion items. Unless the council decides to totally go against the whole of the populace completely, or if opinion has changed that much, I don't see sand veil ever being banned.

Again this isn't something to be discussed though for a month or two when the metagame stabilizes.

so wait there thinking of banning snow cloak and sand veil?...i don't see that being that threatning to be honest...if you gunna be banning snow cloak then there no point to be using a frosslass anymore to be honest...i think she a beast in the hail...

 

[HardCore]

So I've been using Air Balloon Agiligross on the Ladder. It's a nice late game Pokemon to use. I've swept late game rain and sun teams just fine. Seeing Landorus T makes me happy, because it's an easy set up. Here's the set!

Metagross @ Air Balloon
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- Agility
- Earthquake

Jolly would probably work late game, but Metagross needs the power to pull this set off most effectively I'd say. His steel typing is great for taking hits from common scarfer's and He's great for revenging +1 Dnite, Gyarados, Haxorus, and so on. No need for a stab when you have this kind of great coverage.

 

[SuperChillarmy]

Durant's Stone Edge does hit Thundurus-T for super effective, while Iron Head doesn't. However, in most situations Iron Head is superior. Also, yes Durant can't take a special hit, but trying to get one of those pokemon in without losing another team member is tough. Pokemon mentioned were Tornadus-T, Starmie, Gengar, and the Lati twins, which, granted threaten Durant. However, with the appropriate move, they are all easily disposed of on the switch.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Durant's Stone Edge does hit Thundurus-T for super effective, while Iron Head doesn't. However, in most situations Iron Head is superior. Also, yes Durant can't take a special hit, but trying to get one of those pokemon in without losing another team member is tough. Pokemon mentioned were Tornadus-T, Starmie, Gengar, and the Lati twins, which, granted threaten Durant. However, with the appropriate move, they are all easily disposed of on the switch.

Trying to hit the Genies with Stone Edge on the switch really isn't that appealing,especially coming from Durant. Everyone would rather put dibs on using Terrakion first.

 

[Ningildo]

Trying to hit the Genies with Stone Edge on the switch really isn't that appealing,especially coming from Durant. Everyone would rather put dibs on using Terrakion first.

Thing is that Durant has a niche for reaching over 700 Attack at +1 and not being weak to nearly every common priority. Also, it has a very trolly speed tier (not Thundurus-I trolly but still...). Just for reference, base 125's with a neutral nature and max investment just barely miss 700...at +2.
But I see where you're coming from, seeing the worst move in the game just got worse on Durant...

 

[Ithilanor]

How common are powerful Fire-type attacks these days? I'm assuming the only major user is Volcarona; I'm pretty sure Infernape and Heatran are going down in usage, but I'm not sure.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

How common are powerful Fire-type attacks these days? I'm assuming the only major user is Volcarona; I'm pretty sure Infernape and Heatran are going down in usage, but I'm not sure.

Heatran is in the top 10, its not going down in use at all. Infernape and Volcarona have been about in the same rank for the whole gen, 30s, and 20s respectively.

 

[SuperChillarmy]

Trying to hit the Genies with Stone Edge on the switch really isn't that appealing,especially coming from Durant. Everyone would rather put dibs on using Terrakion first.

I'll give you that, but I don't think the opponent will want to risk switching in, even with that low of accuracy.

 

[Ithilanor]

Heatran is in the top 10, its not going down in use at all. Infernape and Volcarona have been about in the same rank for the whole gen, 30s, and 20s respectively.

Well, those usage stats don't reflect the B&W2 meta on PS, which is rather different, hence why I ask.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Well, those usage stats don't reflect the B&W2 meta on PS, which is rather different, hence why I ask.

I've seen a few Sun teams, though almost all of them barring a Volcarona, seeing as it gained Giga Drain it can handle rain with more ease. Haven't seen many Heatrans due to Tornadus-T being able to run through it.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Well, those usage stats don't reflect the B&W2 meta on PS, which is rather different, hence why I ask.

From what ive see on showdown, Heatran usage has only dropped a tiny bit due to rain everywhere, its still a relatively common pokemon. Volcarona usage has gone up a tiny bit because everyone likes playing around with giga drain and roost on it. I haven't seem much infernape, but its still out there enough to be OU.

 

[superbadd]

Seeing infernape in uu would be interesting... Plenty of checks and counters depending on the set but it's REALLY versatile. Lead, SD, NP, Choice, LO. The multitude of sets it can run successfully is astounding. Now that SR and T-punch are legal w/Iron fist it has even more options than before. Although it would probably be another year/year and half if it happens b/c of rain and sand dominance and it's superior coming back into the fray; blaziken.

 

[Shouting]

I don't think Infernape is getting much love because Stall is almost non-existent right now, so it can't mash Chansey/Blissey + Skarmory to bits if there is no Chansey, Blissey, or Skarmory being used.

But it does have Stealth Rock and Mach Punch, and while it doesn't hit the new genie forms very hard, it does hit Terrakion for super effective, as well as getting good damage on Keldeo.

 

[Ricky Horror]

I don't think Infernape is getting much love because Stall is almost non-existent right now, so it can't mash Chansey/Blissey + Skarmory to bits if there is no Chansey, Blissey, or Skarmory being used.

But it does have Stealth Rock and Mach Punch, and while it doesn't hit the new genie forms very hard, it does hit Terrakion for super effective, as well as getting good damage on Keldeo.

Breloom is a much better Mach Punch user, since Technician is now allowed. As for Stealth Rocks well there's the Stealth Rock tutor enough said :p