Other Bulky Offense-- the King of XY(?)

[Chou Toshio]

Semi stall is in an interesting situation.

Semi-stall is the marriage between HO and Full Stall. It's usually 3 defensive pokes that make a good pivot core and stack hazards, and 3 set up sweepers (bulky or pure HO types, though you could see one or two Revenge Killer / Wall breaker instead of all setup sweepers). It's essentially a HO team that uses half of a stall team to stack spikes instead of a Suicide lead. It loses Speed and offensive power, but gains more switching ability and multiple chances to set up hazards.

On one hand, it shares the same weaknesses that both HO and Stall teams have to Defog-- an over reliance on Hazards to win. That said, unlike full stall, Semi-Stall has potentially lethal sweepers to deal damage, meaning it doesn't just outright lose its win condition with Hazards gone; and unlike full HO, Semi-stall is semi-reliable at stacking hazards multiple times (instead of just CUSTAP THEN KIlLL!!).

So to me it's very likely that two halves make a whole, or that the sum is greater than the parts-- while it will suffer some of the same issues both HO and Stall have to deal with, Semi-Stall may be better equipped than either to handle the XY metagame.

 

[Jaroda]

Bulky Offense is my JAM, I preferred almost no other playstyle. This is shaping up to be the best Gen yet imo.

People that think Defog is bad for everyone probably just aren't used to thinking on how a team can be successful and yet not hazard, keyword here, reliant. The reason that being able to nullify the playing field is so important is that it lets the smartest and well prepared teams rise to the top. A team that is dead in the water if its hazards or weather is gone? How can something like that be considered reliable when it can be so easily neutered? Teams like HO which are nothing but a SR sacrifice and 5 choice/LO mon is not strategy. Well, technically, it's a strategy, but it's an uninspired one. Heavy Stall and Heavy Offense teams CAN still be viable, they just can't be utterly polarized anymore and have to have some, you know, team building skills to win? Don't people want a metagame where the most uniquely crafted and intelligent teams are deserving of victory, rather than be relegated to pure statistical number crunching? That totally removes the human element of the game to me.

OK, I digress and probably exaggerated a tad bit, but regardless, my favorite style will blossom this gen and the meta overall will, in my opinion, blossom too as a result. Rewarding the most tightly synched teams and play.

ONE negative impact to BO style, imo, is that with the increase in Defog, utilizing screens for set-up and better defense is at risk too, since those get... "defogged" away?

 

[X5Dragon]

I think offense will fall in the blurry line between HO and Bulky Offense, for example using 2 bulky pokemon for support to enable an HO offensive sweep. You are not necessarily using those bulky mons to attack, but you need them for your HO pokemon to do their job.

Here is a match I played with which can be considered Sand Offense:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen6customgame-57790896

Hippo and TTar provide hazards, defensive support, weather inducing and occasional phazing/attacks. The rest of the team is decidedly HO, with Exca providing spin support on the side as well.

Edit: Also lol at me not realizing there is a check box for MEvo my Lucario until 2 turns later, could have finished that Rotom a long time ago :/

 

[Anartya]

Bulky offense would go great with trick room seeing as every field effect is now 5 turns. And these tanks have the defenses to pull it off and aren't necessarily dependent on it and can work outside of trick room unlike weather dependent mons.

 

[TwoBit]

A lot of bulky-offensive mons are vulnerable status and the like, while effective status users are vulnerable to hyper-offense. Maybe this type of rock/paper/scissors player was the intent behind the changes.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Name: Bulky Offensive
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature / Bold Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Hydro Pump / Surf
~ Ice Beam
~ Hidden Power Electric

 

[CWW]

Bulky Offense is my JAM, I preferred almost no other playstyle. This is shaping up to be the best Gen yet imo.

People that think Defog is bad for everyone probably just aren't used to thinking on how a team can be successful and yet not hazard, keyword here, reliant.

Exactly. Only pure stall is really affected which forces them to adapt.

Bulky Offense, the way I used it, only used Stealth Rock and sometimes Screens. I imagine Sticky Web will be a very interesting option for BO teams. While Galvantula has no bulk to speak of, it has the speed to pull off Sticky Web in the midgame when counters are whittled for your setup sweepers to sweep. My BO teams usually have two or three spots for supporting roles, whether it's Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Screens, Wish Passing or something else. It's going to be hard to find a spot for it, since the supporting guys have additional roles in countering or checking specific threats, and Galvantula can only check.

 

[Tesung]

Hyper offense is fine. While it likes it's spikes, only some sweepers care. Lucario cares a lot, but offensive qd volcarona doesn't give a fuck, it ohkos what it needs to and loses to heatran or dragonite regardless. Not to mention, it's gonna be easy as hell to keep hazards off the field, high is a dream come true for some sweepers (cough cough dnite volc). Just because hazard stacking HO is dead doesn't mean all HO is dead. Not to meantion how easy it will be I use random sash mons.

 

[Shroomisaur]

So to me it's very likely that two halves make a whole, or that the sum is greater than the parts-- while it will suffer some of the same issues both HO and Stall have to deal with, Semi-Stall may be better equipped than either to handle the XY metagame.

Well color me confused now, since you responded to my comment in the Defog thread with:

Bulky Offense/balanced maybe, but semi-stall-- no. Semi-stall is a team type popularized in the tail end of 4th gen, that used a 2-3 mon stall-type core (read: Skarmbliss) to handle defensive pivoting while setting up hazards to support offensive sweepers. It is just as the name "semi-stall" describes: The marriage between Hyper Offense and Stall-- the two team style most screwed by Defog.

You seemed very adamantly against semi-stall's chances, so is semi-stall the "most screwed" or is it "better equipped than either"? Defog is bad for every style, but I think semi-stall stands a good chance this gen.

However, I'm still pulling for Bulky Offense as it's always been my favorite playstyle and its pokemon are durable enough to come in multiple times in a match to set up hazards if needed! Another bulky offense Pokemon that will see probably see a rise is Empoleon, thanks to possessing Defog, SR, great typing and solid all-around stats.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I just learned of the accuracy buff to Will-O-Wisp a few minutes ago. I used to use paralysis support (and I did not like the previous 75% accuracy), as paralysis is a essentially a death sentence for a HO oriented Pokemon since it cripples their primary "defense" mechanism, outspeeding the opponent to OHKO or 2HKO them before the opponent can land a number of hits. In protracted battles, speed would have less of a consequence, although the 25% chance of paralysis is quite inconvenient, and the burn damage would play a larger role. 75% drop in speed is still huge and can override any drop on your Pokemon from Sticky Web and allow an uninvested Pokemon outspeed most fully invested Choice Scarf users, but the 85% accuracy significantly alters the risk-reward profile of using Wisp versus T-Wave.

Knock Off can also be used as a coverage move dealing some respectable damage on bulky attackers to strip Eviolite and Leftovers. That also helps in protracted battles too. But if it is used on a physical attacker, stripping Assault Vest is of little utility.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well color me confused now, since you responded to my comment in the Defog thread with:

You seemed very adamantly against semi-stall's chances, so is semi-stall the "most screwed" or is it "better equipped than either"? Defog is bad for every style, but I think semi-stall stands a good chance this gen.

However, I'm still pulling for Bulky Offense as it's always been my favorite playstyle and its pokemon are durable enough to come in multiple times in a match to set up hazards if needed! Another bulky offense Pokemon that will see probably see a rise is Empoleon, thanks to possessing Defog, SR, great typing and solid all-around stats.

Eh, the more I thought about it, the better semi-stall's position seems. And you'll notice neither of my posts say semi-stall is in a GOOD position-- I only said that it seems to have a better position than hazard-stacking HO and Stall.

I agree with XD5Dragon and others that HO can still be very effective-- and just adding a couple extra Bulkier Pokemon to their teams is probably more than enough to adapt to the nerf to hazards.

 

[Karxrida]

Name: Tyranitar
Ability: Sand Stream
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Def
Nature: Adamant
Crunch
Pursuit
Fire Blast (for Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Lucario)
Stone Edge

First time making a Pokémon's set. Any thoughts?

EDIT:
EVs 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spd
Pursuit
Crunch
Fire Fang (Fire Punch when we get PokeBank)
Stone Edge

 

[666lumberjack]

Those EVs are really inefficient, generally you want to maximise HP if you only have 252 EVs to throw into bulk since it boosts both of your defenses, the only time you would split between HP and defensive stats is if you had more than 252 EVs to throw around or you were trying to survive a certain attack and wanted to get HP and defense as close as possible to optimize bulk. I'm assuming your thoughts are just "maximise the stat that isn't boosted" though, in which case 252HP is better.

It's also probably best to run Fire Punch > Fire Blast since 0 SAtk -ve Fire Blast is unlikely to do much even 4x effective. Otherwise that looks like a fairly standard assault vest Tyranitar - it might be worth adding some speed to beat slower defensive mons but it's hard to say when we know so little about how the metagame will evolve. I would probably just throw 8 Spe on there to speed creep 4 Spe Sylveon, but that's probably not necessary.

 

[56k]

In The Defense Of Stall:

Did any stally pokemon directly get worse this gen? Did any get better? Off the top of my head:

SpD Politoed got nerfed, his rain lasts less time. Tentacruel, Gyarados, and Vaporeon directly got a little worse because of that too. Hippowdon also has a nerfed sandstorm. SubSeed Breloom isn't as good anymore because Spore doesn't affect grass types. Dragonite has less time to use hurricane and his dragon moves are ignored by faeries. Jirachi is weak to ghost and dark attacks. Heatron and Skarmory do not resist ghost and dark attacks. Almost all of Latias's moves got nerfed. It is easier, now, to blow away spikes from Ferrothorn and Forretress and Skarmory.

Ferrothorn might dislike the lack of rain, but, HP Fire is weaker now and he actually survives a few more encounters. Fighting types WILL be less common now, too, because Fairy's resist fighting and Payback. Jellicent also doesn't need to fear Keldeo's HP Ghost or HP Electric. Grass types like Celebi can't be slept by breloom. Zapdos has a new tool (defog) and seems like a more useful teammate. Chansey doesn't need to worry about sandstorm as much. Tangrowth takes 12.5% less damage from HP fire / ice now. Gyarados takes 12.5% less damage from HP Electric.

Gastrodon is pretty much the same. Blissey is pretty much the same. Gliscor is pretty much the same. Rotom-W belongs on any team. Will-o-wisp is more accurate but hydro pump is weaker.

It's hard for me to make a judgement of whether stall is weakened or not this gen. On the one hand, bulkier and more reliable attackers like Landorus-T and Gyarados will probably be more popular than HO attackers like LO Keldeo and Band Terrakion and Specs Latios. That trend means stall teams will be taking weaker hits, but, scald and gyro ball are less threatening to those bulkier attackers.

One more note, rest recovery is more viable across the board, whether for offensive use to get around status, or defensive use for recovery.

The last thing I'd like to say is this. Stall is not popular to play mainly because it is not fun for most people. If stall is not played often on the ladder, part of the reason is because of it's viability, and another reason is because less people choose to try it. I wrote this to be encouraging! I love playing stall, and more players should take up the challenge.

 

[Jaroda]

A lot of bulky-offensive mons are vulnerable status and the like, while effective status users are vulnerable to hyper-offense. Maybe this type of rock/paper/scissors player was the intent behind the changes.

you sure about that? BO usually have means of shrugging off status. Gliscor had Poison Heal making him immune. Conkeldurr had Guts which made him stronger. Bulky Gyarados had Rest. Reuniclus had Magic Guard. The worst status could do was put one to sleep which is less reliable now, or pray for a freeze or full paralysis. Whereas if you paralyzed Blaziken or Burned Terrakion they were essentially finished. Heavy Offense focuses on speed and attack, they cant afford to compensate for setbacks like that. Bulky Offense abuses mon with good resistances or bulk and means of healing AS they attack usually. I see no triangle here.[/quote]

 

[JSND]

I use Ice Beam Mew. No Stall gonna have an easy time with W-o-W buff right thar

 

[Haruno]

As long as defog + Lugia + multi scale doesn't exist then I'm fine.

Honestly while I agree defog buff is huge, people are overhyping it to death. Being so used to the brain dead metagame that was BW OU and how you set up hazards early game and then proceed to sweep, isn't the correct way of viewing things. Sure if you play that way then defog certainly becomes the bane for stall and hyper offense but that's only how a bad player will play. A good player instead would rather set hazards early game still to apply pressure on the opponents defog mon and then do their best to neuter it since although defog sounds perfect in theory, there are still flaws with it that can and will be exploited. Not to mention that running defog stops you from having hazards yourself so you'll have to hesitate to use it if your opp has volc/drago/ho no and the likes. Overall I think defog is a high risk high return move that can make or break a game but it isn't something that kills stall/Ho despite what many believe.


Edit: also wtf is with the stall is only spamming protect and the likes mentality.

 

[GrislyBear]

The reason people say it kills HO is that the fragile Pokemon HO uses need the hazards to secure OHKO and 2HKO that they would miss otherwise and that they would be checked or countered without said hazards.

 

[Haruno]

If defog didn't have that nasty side effect then I'd be inclined to agree. HO still has their god forbid volt turn core which if anything is even more impressive now that there isn't hazards to wear down said momentum grabbers.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Semi stall is in an interesting situation.

Semi-stall is the marriage between HO and Full Stall. It's usually 3 defensive pokes that make a good pivot core and stack hazards, and 3 set up sweepers (bulky or pure HO types, though you could see one or two Revenge Killer / Wall breaker instead of all setup sweepers). It's essentially a HO team that uses half of a stall team to stack spikes instead of a Suicide lead. It loses Speed and offensive power, but gains more switching ability and multiple chances to set up hazards.

On one hand, it shares the same weaknesses that both HO and Stall teams have to Defog-- an over reliance on Hazards to win. That said, unlike full stall, Semi-Stall has potentially lethal sweepers to deal damage, meaning it doesn't just outright lose its win condition with Hazards gone; and unlike full HO, Semi-stall is semi-reliable at stacking hazards multiple times (instead of just CUSTAP THEN KIlLL!!).

So to me it's very likely that two halves make a whole, or that the sum is greater than the parts-- while it will suffer some of the same issues both HO and Stall have to deal with, Semi-Stall may be better equipped than either to handle the XY metagame.

I can definitely see Semi-Stall teams utilizing VoltTurn as an alternative source to passive damage. A ScRotom + Forretress and a strong defensive core could have great potential.

Regarding Defog and hazards, I think we're overhyping the nerf to Hazards. Most of the Pokemon who learn Defog from Gen IV have a weakness to Stealth Rocks (Flying-types), so that generates a pretty bad situation to begin with. Not only that, a good portion of said Defoggers are extremely weak to priority (almost all of them are weak to Ice Shard, Shiftry is weak the Mach Punch, etc) and have no other outstanding traits (e.g. Pidgeot, Aerodactyl). This is more of a boon to Semi-stall and HO than Full Stall because they can retool their team kits to check such things (basically Mamoswine, CB Scizor, etc.)

To be honest, I really think that Defog and Hazards are just going to have an on-off relationship if everyone's hype of Hazards death is correct. If a majority of players stop using hazards, Defog will lose its utility and fall out of use. With its fall, Hazards will increase in usage and therefore Defog will come back up to, and so on and so forth.

However, regarding the utility of Rapid Spinners, their future looks uncertain...

 

[Sazoon]

Hydreigon has been getting a ton of shit this gen with the introduction of fairies, but honestly the faries are kinda underwhelming. But let's take a look at our favourite three headed dragon though. Base 92/90/90 defences aren't too shabby, eh? Also a look at his typing he has so many key resistances like electric, water (hey rotom!), fire, and immunities to psychic and ground. Also with the steel nerf, ghost and dark resists are more important (especially ghost). With his 105/125/98 offensive stats, he is the very definition of bulky offence. I also created a set that tries to get the most out of all his attributes by turning him into a fairly bulky offensive stall breaker.

Offensive Stall Breaker
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 92HP / 252 SAtk / 164Spd
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Taunt
- Roost

The spread may seem complex, but it really isnt. The 164+ Spd is used to out run neutral base 100's and the rest is thrown into the other stats. I originally made this set because I wanted to capitalize on all of those defensive attributes I talked about earlier to use alongside aegislash in a core. I tried using it with choice scarf but I found it got worn down far too quickly so this is what I ended up with. Despite only having 92 HP ev's, it's surprisingly quite bulky. You could also try replacing a move with u-turn. I also find this set to be very similar to the stall breaker crobat set in uu last gen except this one is more powerful at the cost of speed.

Basically this generation Hydreigon is amazing due to the general switch towards bulky offence. Also with his enourmous movepool and such tweakable base stats, I see Hydreigon being quite the hidden gem being able to effectively pull off a ton of sets.

 

[EtherDrive]

What about new hazards like sticky web and the crit mechanics for hyper offense. After a layer of webs alot of things can be incredibly threatening, and Focus Energy + Razor Claw/Scope lens opens up a potentially dangerous combination

if Mons Like Darmanitan, Kingdra, Salamence, Blaziken and Hydreigon (to name a few) get a focus energy off they can punch some major wholes in some teams, especially with web support

 

[Sazoon]

Also on the topic of defog, people are thinking about it all wrong. I feel as if defog will be a resort plan in case hazard stacking gets absurd. It gives the person using defog a ton of utility by being able to control the field. I used a set that utilized this idea to a fairly great extent.

I used the standard Gliscor ev spread on smogon, along with earthquake, taunt, defog, and stealth rocks. This thing was THE master of hazards. Due to it's excellent bulk it could come in on almost every stealth rock user, taunt them, defog, then set up my own hazards. The only problem with this set is that it was illegal and the staff caught on (well it's illegal with poison heal lol).

 

[Psylink]

Eh, the more I thought about it, the better semi-stall's position seems. And you'll notice neither of my posts say semi-stall is in a GOOD position-- I only said that it seems to have a better position than hazard-stacking HO and Stall.

I agree with XD5Dragon and others that HO can still be very effective-- and just adding a couple extra Bulkier Pokemon to their teams is probably more than enough to adapt to the nerf to hazards.

I think that the small addition of two bulkier Pokemon that can take out opposing sweepers not only cramps the amount of sweepers you have, but it makes it so you either have to run an annoying amount of coverage (HP Fire on Latias over Roost on the SubCM set, for example), to cover up the lack of two more attackers. That puts the B/W style of Hyper Offense in a very awkward positon.

I think Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall are two very similar things, as Bulky Offense is, as similarly stated in B/W ranking threads as "The use of tanks to outlast the opponent while sweeping". XY has essentially taking the power away from attacks that were boosted by just a Pokemon coming in, not an item (I'm looking at you, Politoed). Before, with this passive power boost, the sweepers could focus on Speed in their items (Keldeo is the prime example). Without the power boost this Gen, there is much focus on bulk since the sweepers can't outspeed without losing power from the recently nerfed weather. Sorry about the tangeant, I do that, but in my eyes, Bulky Offense is more focused on sweeping with more power and less hazards, while Semi-Stall is vice versa. Both take hits very well. If Semi-Stall has more incentive to run a Defog user for a defensive core, then it will rule XY. If not, Bulky Offense will sweep more efficiently than Semi-Stall, thus taking the lead.

XY is going to be a very diverse metagame, for the first time since before I even starting playing (ADV, right?).

 

[Chou Toshio]

^I don't think you understand what the terms mean. Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall are totally different. I also have no idea what you're trying to say in your post.

Bulky offense: Offense, using bulkier offensive Pokemon

Semi-Stall: Use a core of 2-3 stall Pokemon to support extremely offensive Pokemon (usually set up sweepers)


In the context of 5th gen, examples:

Rain Bulky Offense: Politoed, Scizor, Keldeo, Dragonite, Rotom-W, Landorus-T
Sand Bulky Offense: Tyranitar, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Heatran, Gastrodon, Scizor

^6 Pokes, all can be potentially powerful attackers, and they have some offensive/defensive synergy.

Sun Semi-Stall: Foretress, Cresselia, Ninetales, Dugtrio, Venusaur, Volcarona

^Foretress, Cresselia, and defensive Ninetales form a stall core that sets up hazards, removes hazards, and takes hits. Dugtrio adds further support. Than you have 2 hyper offensive set up sweepers (Venusaur and Volcarona) that finish the match up after the others have set everything up.

Weatherless Semi-Stall: Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Landorus-T (RP), Salamence (Scarf Moxie), Gyarados (Sub DD), Lucario (SD)

Ferrothorn and Jellicent form a Stall core, with Landorus-T also helping cover certain threats, but has RP to act like a setup sweeper too. After the enemy has been weakened, your set up sweepers come in to mop up.