I'm tl;dring this hard but basically if the Smogon team really wanted Latios banned they should've waited a few more weeks. There was 0 tournament results and the one tournament there was were still were playing with Blaziken, another Pokemon that was just quickly shot. I don't think Latios is a big deal but if it was a big deal then let people actually play with the new meta instead of subjecting them to constant change that made it nearly impossible to assess anything.
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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
Whether you agree with it or not, half of the playerbase wanted Latios to stay, so for now there is no point in complaining about the result.
Manaphy is another different thread. Before Latios was gone, a Suspect got promised for it and nothing changed. It still destroys almost every slow team.
The Tier definitely can adapt to Manaphy ( even Kyogre and Mewtwo are possible to adapt to) , Shedinja exists, CM Blissey exists, Unaware Clef exists and Mantine too. I have used Scarf Zone with Thunder, Scarf Rotom-C, Abomasnow, Mirror Coat Cradily in Sand and Yache Berry Exeggutor too.
However, the situation is very different. Latios threatened offensive teams only. Manaphy meanwhile threatens everything that is not a fast offensive team and even those are not entirely safe. Latios had more than one common fittable check, only CM Blissey is really a common one for Manaphy and despite being able to be sort of used in even offensive teams, it's not Scizor level splashable. Also, Latios as a check is not really good, Manaphy has to be damaged for even Specs one to KO, which can be obviously done, but a smart Manaphy user that is not HO, will have some kind of Volturn and hazard control to support it.
In short, Manaphy restricts the Tier far more than Latios even could and it's checks are far less common and splashable. I recommend and support a Suspect and will be voting Ban if it happens.
Manaphy is another different thread. Before Latios was gone, a Suspect got promised for it and nothing changed. It still destroys almost every slow team.
The Tier definitely can adapt to Manaphy ( even Kyogre and Mewtwo are possible to adapt to) , Shedinja exists, CM Blissey exists, Unaware Clef exists and Mantine too. I have used Scarf Zone with Thunder, Scarf Rotom-C, Abomasnow, Mirror Coat Cradily in Sand and Yache Berry Exeggutor too.
However, the situation is very different. Latios threatened offensive teams only. Manaphy meanwhile threatens everything that is not a fast offensive team and even those are not entirely safe. Latios had more than one common fittable check, only CM Blissey is really a common one for Manaphy and despite being able to be sort of used in even offensive teams, it's not Scizor level splashable. Also, Latios as a check is not really good, Manaphy has to be damaged for even Specs one to KO, which can be obviously done, but a smart Manaphy user that is not HO, will have some kind of Volturn and hazard control to support it.
In short, Manaphy restricts the Tier far more than Latios even could and it's checks are far less common and splashable. I recommend and support a Suspect and will be voting Ban if it happens.
As an avid enjoyer of 
Ghost spam in SSOU, and just passionate about spam archetypes in general-- I've wondered if it would be possible to recreate a Ghost spam archetype in this format... And I am glad to say that it is!
Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt / Hex
Obviously the best ghost type, and an obnoxiously strong Pokémon, Gengar has proven itself as quite the offensive threat now that Pursuit is gone, making its Choice Specs set a lot more risk-free and a lot more potent due to the lack of competition, its important speed tier letting it speedtie the Lati twins and the removal of Heavy-duty boots putting Weavile on a tighter timer and forcing damage on Blissey and its stabs being spammable and very risk-free making it an excellent choiced Pokémon.
I don't need to go indepth about why Gengar is good, it's Gengar
But the question is, who's the other ghost? (No don't worry it's not haunter)
The options are.... Quite mediocre.
There are 10 fully evolved Ghost types- 9 excluding gengar, all of these ghosts were either terrible or didn't provide any utility for Gengar to work with- except one!
Enter
!
While I would definitely absolutely run two Gengars, Species clause is quite the party pooper... That aside! Mismagius is very passable as it possesses Levitate, an important speed of 105 letting it outpace the dangerous Garchomp, and most importantly... Pain split which Gengar lost.
Mismagius @ Spell Tag
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Pain Split
- Substitute
This set performs as a Stallbreaker, threatening to pp stall Blissey and using it as its health pack, while also threatening Clefable overtime thanks to hazards and potential special defense drops
Nasty plot allows to discourage switching between Blissey and another Pokémon as it gives it the potential to snipe it with a +6 Shadow ball
This set also has very decent emergency utility, like being immune to Garchomp's earthquake and simultaneously being faster.
And this set punishes setup attempts or status moves or something like a Heatran missing Magma storm with Substitute
Ghost stab is very hard to deal with in this tier, with the only sturdy check type being Blissey (Umbreon does not count!!)- With spell tag and nasty plot this patches up it's unimpressive base 105 special attack stat
Pain split allows it to stay healthy to spam more substitutes and makes up for the lack of Leftovers as it needs Spell tag
Important calculations:
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 218-257 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Clefable: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. -1 252 HP / 64+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 244 SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 225-265 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
(Nasty plot on the switch, take the Bullet punch then Pain split, this lets you live the next one & knock it out)
Worst case scenario when Mismagius is not applicable, that means Gengar will just eat the enemy team up (Either that or you face an umbreon & report them for cteaming!!)
Note! This core really wants:
-Spikes / Toxic spikes support
-Speed control support
Pros of this core:
- Offensively very potent, to both offense and fat alike
- Exploits the shortcomings of the tier when it comes to defensive counterplay to Ghost types
- Very applicable and consistent game in game out
- Funny mischievous ghosts
- You can do a little trolling
- Immune to some forms of priority (Extreme speed and Mach punch) while playing around Bullet punch just fine
- They have matching colors which proves they pair well together
Cons of this core:
- 110 speed and 105 speed can be underwhelming, forced out by the Lati twins, Starmie and so on
- Solo'd by Calm mind Blissey (Yowie!!)
- Very mediocre defensively
- Mismagius sometimes feels very deadweight although that always means Gengar is very potent in that battle
In conclusion, this core focuses around threatening Blissey, and it's pretty decent at doing so as long as it's not calm mind
My take on the core: https://pokepast.es/2ded35bfd4636672
Ghost spam in SSOU, and just passionate about spam archetypes in general-- I've wondered if it would be possible to recreate a Ghost spam archetype in this format... And I am glad to say that it is!Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt / Hex
Obviously the best ghost type, and an obnoxiously strong Pokémon, Gengar has proven itself as quite the offensive threat now that Pursuit is gone, making its Choice Specs set a lot more risk-free and a lot more potent due to the lack of competition, its important speed tier letting it speedtie the Lati twins and the removal of Heavy-duty boots putting Weavile on a tighter timer and forcing damage on Blissey and its stabs being spammable and very risk-free making it an excellent choiced Pokémon.
I don't need to go indepth about why Gengar is good, it's Gengar
But the question is, who's the other ghost? (No don't worry it's not haunter)
The options are.... Quite mediocre.
There are 10 fully evolved Ghost types- 9 excluding gengar, all of these ghosts were either terrible or didn't provide any utility for Gengar to work with- except one!
Enter
! While I would definitely absolutely run two Gengars, Species clause is quite the party pooper... That aside! Mismagius is very passable as it possesses Levitate, an important speed of 105 letting it outpace the dangerous Garchomp, and most importantly... Pain split which Gengar lost.
Mismagius @ Spell Tag
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Pain Split
- Substitute
This set performs as a Stallbreaker, threatening to pp stall Blissey and using it as its health pack, while also threatening Clefable overtime thanks to hazards and potential special defense drops
Nasty plot allows to discourage switching between Blissey and another Pokémon as it gives it the potential to snipe it with a +6 Shadow ball
This set also has very decent emergency utility, like being immune to Garchomp's earthquake and simultaneously being faster.
And this set punishes setup attempts or status moves or something like a Heatran missing Magma storm with Substitute
Ghost stab is very hard to deal with in this tier, with the only sturdy check type being Blissey (Umbreon does not count!!)- With spell tag and nasty plot this patches up it's unimpressive base 105 special attack stat
Pain split allows it to stay healthy to spam more substitutes and makes up for the lack of Leftovers as it needs Spell tag
Important calculations:
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 218-257 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Clefable: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. -1 252 HP / 64+ SpD Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 244 SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
+2 252 SpA Spell Tag Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 225-265 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
(Nasty plot on the switch, take the Bullet punch then Pain split, this lets you live the next one & knock it out)
Worst case scenario when Mismagius is not applicable, that means Gengar will just eat the enemy team up (Either that or you face an umbreon & report them for cteaming!!)
Note! This core really wants:
-Spikes / Toxic spikes support
-Speed control support
Pros of this core:
- Offensively very potent, to both offense and fat alike
- Exploits the shortcomings of the tier when it comes to defensive counterplay to Ghost types
- Very applicable and consistent game in game out
- Funny mischievous ghosts
- You can do a little trolling
- Immune to some forms of priority (Extreme speed and Mach punch) while playing around Bullet punch just fine
- They have matching colors which proves they pair well together
Cons of this core:
- 110 speed and 105 speed can be underwhelming, forced out by the Lati twins, Starmie and so on
- Solo'd by Calm mind Blissey (Yowie!!)
- Very mediocre defensively
- Mismagius sometimes feels very deadweight although that always means Gengar is very potent in that battle
In conclusion, this core focuses around threatening Blissey, and it's pretty decent at doing so as long as it's not calm mind
My take on the core: https://pokepast.es/2ded35bfd4636672
Latios Flies Freely: Good or Bad?
Latios has been subject to lots of debate in the BDSP OU metagame. With voters just barely deciding to keep Latios unbanned, there's undoubtedly going to be controversy surrounding this result.
My opinion admittedly doesn't hold a ton of weight ~ besides being friends with a few staff members, I'm far from being close to a notable player. Still, I've deeply looked into the meta of BDSP OU, and I'd like to give my take on Latios.
Is Latios Checked Well?
It's not a conspiracy that Latios is an insanely strong Pokémon, with its brutal STAB moves and near-perfect coverage. The first checks to Latios that come to mind are Fairy-types like Clefable, alongside Steel-types like Heatran. While these Pokémon can definitely take one, or even two of its attacks, the reliability of always coming in and absorbing its attacks is not there. Clefable gets solidly 2HKO'd by Specs Psychic, and Heatran similarly can't switch into Surf. This is a pretty common trend with Latios's checks ~ it's not impossible to tank one attack from Latios, but it's extemely hard to tank all of its 4 attacks. This is why Pokémon like Tyranitar, Empoleon, and Slowking can't take Latios alone.
There are a couple of Pokémon fortunate enough to take any of its hits. Unfortunately, this number is really limited to just three metagame-relevant mons. Jirachi, Scizor, and Blissey all take a maximum of under 50% damage from its Specs-boosted attacks. They also can handle its other sets, like Calm Mind and 3 Attacks + Roost, quite decently. In most scenarios, having a top-tier breaker with three legitimate counters is fair enough. What makes this an issue in this situation though, is the exploitation of those three counters. Latios is commonly paired with the metagame's most prominent Pokémon ~ Scizor, Gliscor, Feraligatr, you name it. What many of these Pokémon have in common is the complete dismantling of Latios's checks.
Right now, offensive cores featuring Latios are dominant in the meta. Pairing already great breakers with a nuke has made offensive teams dominate. Scizor is easily disposed of by Latios's partners, especially since it NEEDS Special Defense investment to counter Latios. As a result, it can get overwhelmed by physical mons like Lucario and Feraligatr, who abuse its limited coverage. This is also given that Scizor isn't facing off a Magnezone, who freely KO's it. This is a similar story with Jirachi, who is also weak to Knock Off users like Crawdaunt and Gliscor. Blissey is known for being physically frail, so it's obvious that it's going to be fearing any physical attacker.
Why Latios's Strength Leads to Dichotomy
So, what do players do about Latios's ability to power through almost anything? Ultimately, Latios loves having offensive partners enable it, which is why high-powered team styles like DragMag and HO have taken off during this meta. In response to that, one simply can't just use one Pokémon in response to Latios, and build the rest of their team off of their own ideals. Many great teams in these recent times have been Stall or Semistall, stacking checks to Latios and others together. Alternatively, players turn to stacking fast wallbreakers together that can revenge kill Latios, or overwhelm it enough so that it can never safely enter the field. Even then, Choice Scarf Latios has served as a fantastic anti-offense tool.
Sadly, this disparity comes with consequences. Balance teams and Bulky Offense teams have dropped off massively in viability, due to the inability of these teams to catch up with the extremism we're seeing today. While this might not seem apparent, as inevitably people will still try to make this work, this can have massive implications on a long-term level. A common trend in the least balanced metagames (Pure Hackmons, Anything Goes, etc) is the prominence of Stall and Hyper Offense clashing against each other. With Latios remaining unbanned, I fear a similar result with BDSP OU if tiering action isn't proactive. This is to no fault of the council, though.
Almost every prominent player who got reqs voted in favor of banning Latios. That isn't what happened though, because Latios is free today. With the requirements for Suspect Tests being reduced, more room has been available for more voices to be heard. This is where conflict arises ~ although most people who got reqs favored an unban, most of the noteworthy, high-reputation players voted in favor of a ban.
I think there's an issue finding a balance for suspect voting. While it's important to uplift the voices of many people in the Smogon community, this might drown out the input of the more knowledgeable and experienced members. Did that dilemma cause Latios to be unbanned? Potentially.
The Verdict
In a vacuum, Latios isn't broken. It has its checks and counters, at the end of the day. However, not only do these come in limited numbers, but these checks can be exploited by the metagame that lets Latios easily surpass its few flaws.
I think Latios should've been banned
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Maybe if there were proper tournaments we would be able to properly able to assess the metagame and not everyone who voted not ban for Latios is as bad as you think they are? Assign a BW OU player who's inexperienced in something like GSC and you'll figure out that being an expert on one tier doesn't make you a mastermind on everything to ever exist. Hate these passive aggressive bitchfests oml.
That's a fair enough statement, but tiering action is very commonly done quickly & with dilligence. Many things are still up in the air, but something that's been understood since day 1 is that Latios is a top tier threat.
nobody who got reqs is "bad", to be clear. and more importantly, anyone who got reqs is way better than me LOL
not to mention, the leaders that voted ban have been active in the community for years, and not just in one tier. for example, we all know how active finchinator has been over the years, but it's not like all he does is just ou.
i have respect for differing opinions, which is why i pointed out latios's counters and the strength they have. it's also why i pointed out the importance of not just having the fate of the meta in the hands of a select few. i also have my own set of opinions, which is why i went in-depth on why i feel the way i do.
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At the end of the day I agree that the suspect testing system is and has been flawed, but there just isn't much point in theorizing what would happen "with a better system" if you don't have any solutions. I personally enjoy the idea of having actual tournament results being the qualifications alongside having a suspect tournament with a cutoff allowing unnoticed players to get a chance (i.e. how they handle most if not all past gen tests) but that requires to acknowledge that the ladder =/= the tournament scene and the Smogon team needs to figure out what type of system they value more because there are pros and cons to each.
Another thing that would significantly help is if there was at least a semblance of idea what the "ideal meta" is even like, for Latios' case I'm running these same Pokemon for stuff like Alakazam and Starmie whom I would argue are even more difficult to teambuild around. I'm not saying you have to suspect test them immediately, but if there's a certain meta you want at least mention their names being on the radar so that there would be an ease of mind that there is something actually planned. Most importantly though, all of this relies on people actually having the time to figure things out just like people were genuinely discovering that Zam is a Pokemon early/mid suspect test.
While I too believe that Latios should be banned, I have done some digging onto a mon that could check a variety of variants. The answer: Snorlax.
Specifically, bulky variants of Snorlax. With a strong HP and Special Defense stat of 160 and 110 respectively, Snorlax could serve as both a special tank and an answer to Latios.
Snorlax @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 52 HP / 200 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Brick Break/Rest
This set is capable of withstanding many hits from Latios and being able to cleanly 2HKO it back. Both Body Slam and Crunch can do this with Body Slam even offering the chance to paralyze Latios. If you want a more offensive set, adding a Choice Band is possible with a slightly changed set of EVs: 40 HP / 224 Atk / 4 Def / 240 SpD with Choice Band equipped. Leftovers is a solid item to use but Chesto Berry and Rest offers more immediate healing capabilities. The Choice Band EVs are designed to allow for a clean OHKO while enduring against 2 Draco Meteors and anything else from the most dangerous Latios variant: the Choice Specs variant. These sets can wall the Life Orb and Soul Dew variants very effectively.
Snorlax is admittedly slow and it isn't always easiest to use, but I feel that it should be contributed as another check to Latios. Furthermore, team support can make Snorlax that much more dangerous. With Trick Room, that low speed becomes a powerful tool that allows it to scare out all Latios variants. Clerics can allow Snorlax to heal up with Rest, retreat, and then come back fully charged for another round. With hazard support, Snorlax can be more threatening as it tanks hits.
While no means perfect, Snorlax is certainly usable as a special tank and I feel it deserves mention.
Specifically, bulky variants of Snorlax. With a strong HP and Special Defense stat of 160 and 110 respectively, Snorlax could serve as both a special tank and an answer to Latios.
Snorlax @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 52 HP / 200 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Brick Break/Rest
This set is capable of withstanding many hits from Latios and being able to cleanly 2HKO it back. Both Body Slam and Crunch can do this with Body Slam even offering the chance to paralyze Latios. If you want a more offensive set, adding a Choice Band is possible with a slightly changed set of EVs: 40 HP / 224 Atk / 4 Def / 240 SpD with Choice Band equipped. Leftovers is a solid item to use but Chesto Berry and Rest offers more immediate healing capabilities. The Choice Band EVs are designed to allow for a clean OHKO while enduring against 2 Draco Meteors and anything else from the most dangerous Latios variant: the Choice Specs variant. These sets can wall the Life Orb and Soul Dew variants very effectively.
Snorlax is admittedly slow and it isn't always easiest to use, but I feel that it should be contributed as another check to Latios. Furthermore, team support can make Snorlax that much more dangerous. With Trick Room, that low speed becomes a powerful tool that allows it to scare out all Latios variants. Clerics can allow Snorlax to heal up with Rest, retreat, and then come back fully charged for another round. With hazard support, Snorlax can be more threatening as it tanks hits.
While no means perfect, Snorlax is certainly usable as a special tank and I feel it deserves mention.
Of the 46 people who voted, 24 of them had at least one badge. Counting only the users who had a badge who voted, you would have a 13/24 Ban Votes, which amounts to 54.1%. Granted that is still a simple majority, but it's still short of the 60% needed for the vote to go through. Restricting the voterpool down to the more influential people in the community likely wouldn't have changed the result.
Besides all of these people meet the requirements to vote in the suspect test anyways regardless of their badge status, and as such I think their opinions should be held in the same regard here. No offense, but the logic of "We should value these peoples votes more because they have a shiny png underneath their avatar" comes across as very elitist, and I really don't like that many users of this website have adopted this logic throughout the years (Mostly due to how it discourages newer users from posting since it makes them feel their opinion is worth less).
Let me just state for the record that I'm not trying to defend Latios here (In fact, I wanted it banned too), I'm just trying to argue against these types of arguments against the current suspect test system we have.
Since it hasn't really been mentioned in this capacity before I would like to bring attention to what I think the absolute best offensive partner to Latios is: 
To explain why I think this let's go over all of the defensive answers to Latios (including the fringe ones that some people have mentioned that I might not even agree with):
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
Setting aside Clefable and the frail Gardevoir (which I personally don't even think is a good answer to Latios but thats not here nor there) every single one of these mons is outsped and weak to one of Infernapes STAB moves. In addition to that Apes ability to go mixed means that really strong walls on one side of the defensive spectrum won't destroy it (ie Close Combat and Blissey). Every single one of the aforementioned non-fairy Latios answers is at best 2KOd by Infernape, with a large number being OKOd. I personally have found a lot of success with this set:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Slack Off
Life Orb is key to this set as a choice lock means that some mons that you should beat will suddenly become good answers once you get locked in, although if you don't want the LO chip then Expert Belt should work fine enough. The evs are the thing that I think could use the most improving, max speed is obviously important to beat other Ape and 24 SpA is needed in order to 2KO fully Sp Def Jirachi but aside from that the evs are non-essential for beating Lati's answers. I put the rest into attack as I find CC to be a fairly spammable move in the tier as it hits most mons at least neutrally, but they could be changed to do things like 2KO Sp Def Gliscor if you want. I chose naive over hasty (-sp def over -def) in order to deal with not very effective Bullet Punches and U-Turns easier, although I don't think hasty in unviable by any means.
The moves are the best STABs for Mixed Ape with CC over Focus Blast almost entirely for Blissey. Fire Blast is a really strong move even with miminal investment and lets you hit stuff like Scizor on its weaker side. If you want to run Flamethrower over Fire Blast that is an option, but I would run 72 SpA evs to 2KO fully Sp Def Jirachi. U-Turn is a great move in general I don't think theres much I need to say. Slack Off is a really good 4th move that makes Ape able to stick around for much longer with hazard and LO damage and in longer games you can usually scare out a mon in order to heal up, paired with Recover Latios they are much harder to wear down then they would seem to be at first. Poison Jab is a good alternative to Slack Off if you find yourself not using it as it lets you beat the two remaining answers to Clef in Sp Def Clefable and Sp Def Gardevoir.
tl:dr Non-choiced Ape beats Latios' answers, give it a try and see the opponent weep
To explain why I think this let's go over all of the defensive answers to Latios (including the fringe ones that some people have mentioned that I might not even agree with):
, , , , , , , , , , Setting aside Clefable and the frail Gardevoir (which I personally don't even think is a good answer to Latios but thats not here nor there) every single one of these mons is outsped and weak to one of Infernapes STAB moves. In addition to that Apes ability to go mixed means that really strong walls on one side of the defensive spectrum won't destroy it (ie Close Combat and Blissey). Every single one of the aforementioned non-fairy Latios answers is at best 2KOd by Infernape, with a large number being OKOd. I personally have found a lot of success with this set:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Slack Off
Life Orb is key to this set as a choice lock means that some mons that you should beat will suddenly become good answers once you get locked in, although if you don't want the LO chip then Expert Belt should work fine enough. The evs are the thing that I think could use the most improving, max speed is obviously important to beat other Ape and 24 SpA is needed in order to 2KO fully Sp Def Jirachi but aside from that the evs are non-essential for beating Lati's answers. I put the rest into attack as I find CC to be a fairly spammable move in the tier as it hits most mons at least neutrally, but they could be changed to do things like 2KO Sp Def Gliscor if you want. I chose naive over hasty (-sp def over -def) in order to deal with not very effective Bullet Punches and U-Turns easier, although I don't think hasty in unviable by any means.
The moves are the best STABs for Mixed Ape with CC over Focus Blast almost entirely for Blissey. Fire Blast is a really strong move even with miminal investment and lets you hit stuff like Scizor on its weaker side. If you want to run Flamethrower over Fire Blast that is an option, but I would run 72 SpA evs to 2KO fully Sp Def Jirachi. U-Turn is a great move in general I don't think theres much I need to say. Slack Off is a really good 4th move that makes Ape able to stick around for much longer with hazard and LO damage and in longer games you can usually scare out a mon in order to heal up, paired with Recover Latios they are much harder to wear down then they would seem to be at first. Poison Jab is a good alternative to Slack Off if you find yourself not using it as it lets you beat the two remaining answers to Clef in Sp Def Clefable and Sp Def Gardevoir.
tl:dr Non-choiced Ape beats Latios' answers, give it a try and see the opponent weep
me shifting the convo to badges was a bad idea, because i completely agree that it's ultimately a png.
i completely agree that new players shouldn't feel like their opinions are less valuable, because at the end of the day we're all people. however, i also believe that when it comes to massively impactful metagame decisions, it should be left in the hands of the most knowledgeable people that will make the most informed & experienced decisions.
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Tios is staying so I would like to bring attention to this core really quickly
Don't have time to do a full write up but these two together manhandle a lot of bulky offenses, most BOs can't realistically fit Blissey and Unaclef is dropping off so the combo can do some serious work against bulky offense right now. Scizor and Rachi are very unsafe against Flame Body Heatran, and Latios abuses a lot of things that Tran doesn't really like, such as Infernape and Rotom-Wash. This is especially good with CM Latios (and Latias I guess) and can really put in some serious work. Definitely worth trying if you haven't already.
Don't have time to do a full write up but these two together manhandle a lot of bulky offenses, most BOs can't realistically fit Blissey and Unaclef is dropping off so the combo can do some serious work against bulky offense right now. Scizor and Rachi are very unsafe against Flame Body Heatran, and Latios abuses a lot of things that Tran doesn't really like, such as Infernape and Rotom-Wash. This is especially good with CM Latios (and Latias I guess) and can really put in some serious work. Definitely worth trying if you haven't already.
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
I find it funny that the main reasons provided from pro-keep players in the discord-the one revolving around there being 'decent checks and answers'-is being immediately invalidated by people posting already great mons that cover up all of Latios's (few) weaknesses. In fact I think I need to go on a bit of tirade about it-just because there exists answers to a Pokemon does not mean that the mon is balanced or even healthy for the tier. It seems obvious but a large amount of people believe that latios is balanced because X defensive pokemon can always switch-in or y pokemon can threaten it out-and the reason why this line of logic falls apart is simple:
Note: not trying to imply there aren't some solid pro-keep arguments because there definitely has been. But I have big issues with the ones I see the most.
- So what? Most pokemon that end up being banned from competitive tiers don't totally exist without counterplay-in fact, there are very few banned strategies, moves or otherwise in Pokemon that literally exist without some sort of counterplay. A good example from the UU tier would be (funny enough) the Latias ban that occurred several months ago-nobody tried to argue that Latias didn't have some counterplay. Mons like Celesteela and Jirachi were always super popular and there were a host of weird mons in the lower tiers that were good answers to Latias. What made it broken was just how much of the metagame it muscled past, the fringeness of some of it's checks, and Latias's ability to break through those checks over the course of a given game (not to talk of how massive of an effect it had on the tier in general).
In that same vein, Latios having some limited defensive or offensive counterplay in of itself does not make Latios a reasonable Pokemon. Even with those options, it's still an extremely fast, absurdly strong Pokemon that places a lot of pressure on the teambuilder in a meta where an entire staple archetype is unplayable already. And hey, let's actually take a look at the counterplay!:- Blissey: Too passive to ever be seen outside of stall.
- Heatran: No reliable recovery to be a long-term answer against rocks + specs draco meteor. Has to be very defensive to take a hit and has to run fucking payback to deal damage, too. And then if Lati runs surf this doesn't matter.
- Jirachi: Actually a pretty good answer with decent recovery...until Latios starts clicking shadow ball. That sounds bad but Latios doesn't need much more than draco meteor to be a terrifying presence in a battle. Running shadow ball to check one of your few, non-stall threats is worth it.
- Tyranitar: Has to be very defensive to even qualify as a check...a check that takes 40% every time it switches in, has no recovery whatsoever and doesn't have pursuit.
- Clefable: If it's not dedicated spdef it gets 2hko'd by psychic. If it is dedicated it has to run magic guard or risk the 2hko from psychic + rocks. On top of that, Latios can literally just click psychic ad infinitum since moonblast doesn't come close to killing and you get 3hko'd no matter what.
- Empoleon: Actually not the worst of answers, but it has no recovery and has to run ice beam to deal any damage.
- Scizor: An actual solid answer with recovery that lati cannot beat.
- The only lati problems that don't have some serious problems are blissey, empoleon and scizor-and unfortunately those three share a lot of common faults as pokemon. It's not difficult at all to patch up these holes-good ol' Hobie has already pointed out how infernape beats every single imaginable lati counter, which includes the extremely gimmicky ones like umbreon or fucking shedinja.
- In terms of offensive counterplay there are literally only five pokemon that naturally outspeed it. One being a (niche-y) rocks setter and the other being a suicide lead (Azelf). So that's three-gengar, zam, starmie. Gengar can admittedly run a train on latios but starmie and zam can never ohko.
Note: not trying to imply there aren't some solid pro-keep arguments because there definitely has been. But I have big issues with the ones I see the most.
Well said! I agree with the majority of this post
I'd like to add though that Scizor in itself is not actually a permanent roadblock for Latios
Allow me to elaborate:
- Scizor typically runs mixed bulk, although heavily invested into special defense compared to physical
- Scizor is not just used because it checks Latios (And its usage will not decrease significantly if at all if Latios were to get banned), although that's a very huge boon it obviously has to check a lot of other pokemon, and it typically takes damage before U-turning
In conclusion it's impossible to keep it full health, especially without Heavy-Duty Boots
Enter Specs Latios
Either one of two scenarios can happen:
Scenario 1
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 240 SpD Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is an insane amount of damage and it implies that Latios is VERY likely to get Scizor into the 2 shot range with Surf after stealth rock, as little damage as taking one round of stealth rock puts you in heavy risk of this happening
Scenario 2
Psychic Special defense drops are funny
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 248 HP / 240 SpD Scizor: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. -1 248 HP / 240 SpD Scizor: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Minimum damage: 29 + 44.6 + 12.5 = 86.1%
Maximum damage: 34.9 + 52.4 + 12.5 = 99.8% (Yowie!!)
Even if you don't accomplish either, Latios forces a momentum sink from Scizor to roost otherwise it risks being unable to check it anymore even on a bad read hitting it with Psychic or Draco, this is very valuable because it's nearly impossible to punish Scizor's U-turn in this metagame
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I think you got your speed tiers mixed up, Gengar has the same speed as Latios (110), the one than should go there is Weavile.
And there are other forms of offensive counterplay in some scarfers like other dragons, priority from Mamoswine, LO zam dont need much cheap to kill it with Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball, if it was locked into Psychic there is Crawdaunt, it if was meteor you can use Azumarill and plenty of set up sweepers than can take advantage of going -2 (and that alone sometimes prevent latios from clicking meteor), i think there is more than enough offensive counterplay, specially compared to other mons in the tier that may or may not be broken themselves.
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I dont want to sound mean, but it seems like a lot of people than disagree with the outcome (here and in other places) didnt vote, casting your opinion should be as important as making it count towards the result, i know we sometimes dont have the time to ladder, and this is a difficult time of the year to give time to your hobby, but the results are out and i feel we should respect the result as it was decided by the community and every vote should have the same weight. Maybe it would be a good idea to have the suspect again, but only after some time as the meta is still young and we didnt get enough time to experience the tier post drizzle ban before going into a suspect for a mon that was nerfed by it. Let some tours happen first and there are many other dangerous mons that we should discuss.
Not like i oppose to keep discussing Latios place in the meta, i have no authority to decide what we are allowed to discuss (i even think blacklisting mons from competitive threads like the viability rankings is bad, if anyone suggest something stupid it should be told why is stupid, if i say something dumb here or in the suspect thread i would like to know, maybe next time my vote could be different, or not).
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
whoops my bad
Scarfers function as standard offensive counterplay to everything that not's boosting speed, though. And they're easy to take advantage of if you can predict whatever move they're clicking (which is almost always something super-effective). Nevermind the fact that the scarfer has to actually ohko else they just get bombed into oblivion anyways.
I'll agree that mamo can function as a decent offensive check via priority and that zam can attempt to kill it with sball (if it's not running two attacks plot) but then:
I think counting this as 'offensive counterplay' is a stretch since it depends on them being locked into a specific move. Offensive counterplay obviously isn't suppsoed to switch in but your suggestions are too specific and depend on something getting blasted first. Nevermind the fact that Latios also has soul dew and life orb sets that make this 'counterplay' even more invalid
the rest of your post is actually aight, yeah some of the people who disagree didn't vote but straight-up I'm too busy kek. And yes, we shouldn't retest Latios immediately because that would be a massive middle finger to the pro-ban votes.
good post overall
It's really funny that u say that where the Latios suspect requirement is 60% to ban and the ending result was 22ban -25keep. Its not even 50%. Trying to cheat around w/ arguing who's the better voters is nonsense too, I could say the same thing that your entire post invalid because u don't have a badge in this logic? Debating about the prowness of Latios is ok but please don't sneak in the bias.
That being said, the suspect itself seemed quite a rush, and I'm in favor of a re-suspect of Latios once a few other suspects run through / more tournaments take place.
Shifting to
suspect:Even though the council promised the Manaphy suspect after Latios, I plead to delay it for a few weeks. The metagame changed a lot from the start of the suspect of Latios to the end of it, so much that I think the metagame still has a lot of potential to evolve. Please give it some time and let us improve during the time too!
About
itself:Manaphy had been a threat mostly vs slower balance and tbh the 100 base power is quite weak. Its main advantage that lets it to seem so versatile is due to its higher than average bulk that allows it to force trades against more offensive teams. I'm curious to how Manaphy performs against offenses that adapt to it , and whether it will still guarentee trades in those scenarios or become of a deadweight in those mus.
In retrospect, my argument about voter disparity isn't sound and isn't fair to most players. Regardless of my intentions, ultimately my arguments undermined opposing opinions.
For the sake of transparency, I won't delete my post (unless you guys want me to), but I will cross out and strikethrough the portions of my argument that throw people under the bus.
For the sake of transparency, I won't delete my post (unless you guys want me to), but I will cross out and strikethrough the portions of my argument that throw people under the bus.
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
At the time hiss made their post, the ban was at a 21-21 split or so, at least, it was 50% when the actual decision to unban it happened....exactly 50%! Obviously it changed after that but, context is important. Also, he didn't try to argue that lati ban should've occurred despite it not being 60%. He's arguing that it's controversial. The evidence for that being true is pretty much every post made post-lati ban and the entire discord.
Is it? Browsing through the policy review subforums shows many posts that center around similar ideas. People getting frustrated because the voters for a specific suspect seemed low-quality isn't a controversial idea; it's a complaint brought up a lot due to how Tiering Contributor badge works. I also recall the Mega Sableye ban from ORAS OU being greeted with a lot of controversy after the tier had 'ended'-mainly because the entirety of the council disagreed with the ban at the time but the voters went sideways. Personally saying "I think the more experienced players voted for lati' is annoying but I don't think it's an unfounded statement to make
edit: pronouns acknowledged
although between the three of us we haven't a single badge so nothing we say matters lmao
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why is the first thing i see when i open this thread is some1 using badges to classify ppl who r good at the game and not lol
This whole para, while fairly on point has issues on both sides. Jirachi can still lose to the rare but existing Earthquake Latios, so its really only CM Blissey and Scizor who consistently handle it, but swapping out Jirachi would be Shedinja, a Pokemon which has been seeing a lot of use on high level stalls. I would say Latios is extremely comparable to stuff like Tapu Lele, in which true hard counters are few and far in between, but just forcing it to not click its STAB option, in Latios's case the extremely spammable Psychic's or its 1 time nuke in Draco Meteor, basically means you check Latios well enough. And similiarly with Tapu Lele, you dont need consistent long term checks to Latios outside of stall, so the point about these checks not being long term enough is irrelevant. About how easily those counters are exploited, ill go into them specifically.
and Both run on stall, so in Blisseys case being forced to Soft Boil / CM and losing momentum really isnt much of an issue, or one at all, because you’ll always have defensive CPlay to Latios's other partners, thats how stall functions, barring specific exceptions like Sludge Bomb Life Orb 4A Crawdaunt VS Poliwrath-less Stall, or TrickPlot Mowtom VS Shedinja-less stall. Those Pokemon will always win vs the Stall team if played with an ounce of knowledge of the tier, regardless of Latios. So immedietely, thats off the table on Blisseys end. About Shedinja, Latios's inability to actually touch it mean it cant really be taken advantage off barring an aggresive double, since it isnt forced to waste a turn recovering etc. And the previous points about the specific exceptions apply to here as well, as they are specific stall CTeams, and thus will win regardless of Latios existing or not.
And yes, these two only fit on stall since Balance is unviable and will be terrible regardless unless half the tier is removed.
This Pokemon is really the only one I can agree with you that it is easily taken advantage off, and which is why I have recently been using different Steel-types / Tyranitar as my Latios deterrent, however I do think that there is some misconception, especially with less experienced players who think that you are forced to roost every single time Latios attacks, which of course you arent because not all Latios is Specs and not all Latios will click Draco Meteor and not all the time you will need Scizor healthy for the rest of the game, and sometimes maintaining that momentum is more preferred. Also, im confused about all your examples of “Pokemon that take advantage of Latios” barring Magnezone, which is fairly obvious. In the example of Feraligatr and Lucario (assuming they are sd/dd and sd respectively), if Scizor roosts as they come in, Scizor can still U-Turn as they set up, meaning they will only have gotten 1 boost at most (or non at all if they just attacked). Realistically, your team should have some form if counterplay to a 1x boosted Feraligatr / Lucario no? If your team immediately folds to them then thats a team building issue. On the example of Jirachi (which we established isnt a hard counter) , sometimes doesnt even run Wish (as shown on the sample sets, as well as a quick mini survey in the room) due to how incredibly passive Wish sets are, so Crawdaunt going hard into Jirachi is a terrible play, most of the time. In Gliscors case, again thats just momentum for the Jirachi users, but if they ARE Wish, then at the very most Glisc gets a SD? or Rocks or Fog possibly, and then Jirachi turns away healthy. If it does get a SD or two, Gliscor isnt really that hard to check so its not the most threatening thing in the world, and this is the absolute worst case scenario (Wish Jirachi > SD Gliscor, and Jirachi is forced to recover). So honestly, they arent as easily taken advantage off as you portray here.
HO as a playstyle has fallen off a bit, with Offense and Bulky Offense taking the wheel. Some might argue that HO > BO and vice versa, but what is definitely set is that HO definitely isnt the best, or even top 2 playstyle in the tier. Choice Scarf Latios is a terrible set, and is an even worse anti-offense tool than its counterpart. The thing about Latios is that it is naturally fast, and outspeeds a lot of the offense mons already, issue is it is weak as fuck and extremely predictable, and now Latios checks on offense like Heatran and Empoleon actually check you consistently, and stuff like Scizor doesnt need to roost! It would be a different story if say, Garchomp and Infernape outsped it normally. Realistically it is an inferior Scarf Latias as it honestly doesnt need the power, and the extra bulk and utility is much much much more appreciated, and it will be a relatively do-nothing Pokemon most of the time.
Balance teams are unviable and Latios isnt the sole offender, just one piece of the puzzle really, and Latios being banned wont suddenly make Balance viable, and people seem to forget that Latias still exists and is barely weaker, but also bulkier, which means the metagame will really not change once Latios gets banned. Maybe for a week, people will stop running Steels / Tyranitar / Blissey on every team, but right after then things will get right back to where they were. Another part about this is the fact that BO teams definitely have not dropped off, but rather come back up, as it benefits extremely from the Drizzle and Blaziken ban. As mentioned before, Stall and HO arent even the top 2 playstyle for most people, and HO has fallen off drastically post Blaziken ban, with some people even ranking it below BO. Furthermore, banning Latios as I mentioned early on in this post wont drastically change the meta state, you would need to ban half the tiers breakers to do so.
Anyways, while i was typing this out, you cancelled out the part about the Prominent vs Common players, which thankfully you realised how not only rude that was, but incredibly oblivious to how badges work, so I wont go into that part.
Personally I find it has a lot of prominent checks (refer to Lele comparison), and those that can easily be teched or just outright arent exploited easily. The suspect test requirements arent really lax, just flawed, and thats how suspect tests work, they definitely arent a 100% consistent way, but again there is no 100% consistent and “helps everybody” way for bans to be dealt with, so I dont think questioning the requirements and calling it lax are really the way you want to go about this, especially without proposing a solution that hasnt been proposed and shut down before.
1, stop being a dick, 2, stop being so rude.
Thank you.
Also to further expand on this, I also personally think the suspect and tiering action in general (although i cant lie i was happy when drizzle got banned) was quite rushed, and more time could have definitely been spent before tiering action was taken (After Kickoff was where I would start), since even right now the meta is at its infancy, and nothing is really set in stone; However I do understand why council would take action this early, although I disagree with that choice.
Adding on to this, Badge =/= good at the game, and vice versa, it means “person who chose smogon over touching grass”, and fhis is coming from a person with 2 Badges. You can have a badge and be bad at the game, and you dont have to have a badge and be good at the game. Having a badge means you just like to contribute, mostly has nothing to do with actual skill.
For this post, ill add my thoughts in straight to the post in colour.
The first part about Scarfers, “And they're easy to take advantage of if you can predict whatever move they're clicking (which is almost always something super-effective)” Prediction-based arguments are terrible, simply due to the fact that prediction can go both ways, and realistically this can go on and on with infinite, “what ifs” if prediction based arguments are counted as valid. Furthermore, the part about scarfers always being forced to OHKO or be “bombed into oblivion” is just untrue, as the main point of scarfers revenibg Latios is that Latios cant touch them back at all (Locked Dragon move into Fairy type, vice versa with Psychic and Dark types), or Latios is far too weak to do enough damage to matter (After Draco-ed), or the Latios user simply needs to preserve HP on the Latios for future defensive utility. Also, regardless of all of this, this is still again bringing back on the prediction argument which I already explained should be inadmissable.
Crawdaunt switch into a Psychic-locked Latios, or Azumarill switching into a Dragon-move locked Latios isnt too specific at all, they are common interactions with Latios, and one of the main ways Specs sets are easily taken advantage off. And yeah, something does have to take the hit first (unless of course you want to bring up the prediction argument again), but I dont get why this is an issue, as you literally mentioned just a line before you mentioned “Offensive counterplay obviously isn't suppsoed to switch in”. I dont get why something else getting blasted is a problem, if you yourself know that offensive counterplay isnt supposed to switch into the things they are CPlay for raw.
Thinking experienced players should be the major decided factor is normal, and IMO should be for everything, but suspect tests are flawed and hard for it to be made perfectly where there isnt just a small pool of players + subjectiveness, and a high quality mark at the same time. And I think the main point they were trying to hit was the comparison of Badges = good at the game, which as I previously highlighted was wrong.
ok gn R8 Sputnik Lalaya Eve
Lalaya
Banned deucer.
im fueling a very good side of adam and im happy to see this unfold
btw only wanna add that, while shedstall is something non-BDSP players already grew to know and love (or hate), Shedinja being an answer to something is **NOT** an argument to use to decide that a Pokémon is broken or not, due to Shedinja's unique nature and the fact that shedstall are still very uncommon
btw only wanna add that, while shedstall is something non-BDSP players already grew to know and love (or hate), Shedinja being an answer to something is **NOT** an argument to use to decide that a Pokémon is broken or not, due to Shedinja's unique nature and the fact that shedstall are still very uncommon
ratio, get badges u noob
That said, I'd like to know why people are still arguing on Latios. Latios is going to stay, yes it sucks if you were pro-ban like me, but you've to accept it. If you think the metagame is unhealthy (like I do), try to think of other ways to fix it! That's why I would like to talk about some Pokémon I've read people asking actions on.
Council said there will be a suspect test on it soon after Latios' one, and I think the time proved Manaphy has been even worse than Latios. QY_CS said the metagame adapted to Manaphy but I disagree. Sure there is Calm Mind Blissey, sure some stall teams can afford to run Unaware Clefable + Shedinja/Mantine to cover Skill Swap Manaphy, but other teams can't. Manaphy is very hard to OHKO due to its great bulk, so it is almost always able to get a setup opportunity, especially with Dual Screen support. Defensively Water/Grass/Ice covers everything you don't want to run outside of stall, even breaking past Blissey. In my experience, Manaphy is just a pain to deal with if not running hard stall, and it almost always forces to sack the Pokemon it faces and trade some damage with the Pokemon coming to revenge kill it.
Life Orb is a monster to face with stall, with nothing reliably answering it and its ability to boost its Special Attack to skyhigh level while threatening on both special and physical sides. However, Focus Sash is the threat to most team, granting a free setup opportunity to Alakazam. Even if nothing comfortably takes +2 hits from Alakazam, the popularities of priorities and Choice Scarf users in the tier mean that you're almost never going to get swept by Alakazam. Also now that Latios is ensured to stay in the tier, Scizor is going to remain very popular and it is the best switch-in to Alakazam, being able to break the Focus Sash and bring a revenge killer with its slow U-turn and revenge kill it with Bullet Punch. Alakazam is an amazing wallbreaker versus stall and that's it. In my opinion, it could become unhealthier and problematic if Scizor gets worse, but atm it's no issue.
I lowkey find Gengar broken. Focus Blast means it has good odds to beat Blissey, especially due to it often not carrying a move that can touch it (even if Thunder Wave is really annoying), so even if it doesn't run Focus Blast it can defeat it with Sub. STAB Sludge Bomb lets it break Unaware Clefable. These two points give Gengar a positive matchup against two of the most common specially defensive wall. However, what's really making Gengar amazing is the lack of good Ghost resist in the tier outside Tyranitar and Blissey which aren't really safe versus Focus Blast anyway. This means Shadow Ball is very spammable, especially with Gengar's excellent offensive stats and great set of resists. In some games, I find Gengar hard to scout for, especially since you've to figure out what set it is (Specs, NP+3Atk, Sub+NP, Hex, etc...) and this sometimes gives it a great advantage. I don't believe Gengar is near as broken or restrictive as Manaphy or Latios, but I think it could become a problem long term.
Lalaya
Banned deucer.
this is genuinely what are my thoughts on it only written by an actual human being ily Tuthurratio, get badges u noob
That said, I'd like to know why people are still arguing on Latios. Latios is going to stay, yes it sucks if you were pro-ban like me, but you've to accept it. If you think the metagame is unhealthy (like I do), try to think of other ways to fix it! That's why I would like to talk about some Pokémon I've read people asking actions on.
that being said, I 100% agree that delaying the inevitable will lead us nowhere; right now the meta is in a state of chaotic disarray where we have Tios, Mana, Zam and Gar competing for whoever is the most broken ass threat in the tier (alongside the funny niche builds that we still have and I love that almost every Pokémon is getting at least a glint of usage), and as I said multiple times we HAVE to address at least one of them in order to get some progress done on balancing the tier proper
Mana is next on the chopping block, and it definitely deserves the ban seeing how restrictive it is on both teambuilding and on battle proper; while it CAN be beaten since his speed tier isn't the best, almost nothing oneshots him, and getting a free turn and kill with the funny blue mon is easy, ESPECIALLY on screens HO (which unlike Adam said I find them still very threatening; also, as discussed on the cord, i find very little reason in not using 3atks tailglow or 2atks + something like sub or skill swap, since its just straight up the most consistent in doing so, although it has a plethora of other sets that could rise up in due time); the fact that we're using Tios as an offensive check is just telling, and you still need prior chip to down it with a Specs Meteor; you could argue its easy to chip Manaphy with whatever you might have on the field, but we also have to consider how it might be a Pokémon that could just get killed (idk how many times I got a Manaphy volturned into me while getting something like Gliscor in, and it's not something you can really punish, as you already know); also, having to run defensively either shit like Unaclef or something you can only slot on stall, like CM Bliss or the even less usable Mantine (or Shedinja, but don't make me mention Shedinja), and while in this offense-driven metagame its not hard to play around Manaphy to get the kill done and end its menace, its not hard either to support the blue balloon with so much of a generic speed control tool, give it a Salac to make it even more of a cleaner (or a Resist berry to get a extra surprise kill), and its not like all six members of a team can kill Manaphy either (as it should be, anyway, you don't have to delegate the whole team to Manaphy), and lastly even if you DO end up killing him, it's only a good trade if you don't end up sacking half the team to it. And this is without mentioning how it's one of the key parts in how its existence invalidates an archetype and a half (which is arguably bullshit as an argument alone and balance has a million other problems than Mana), but it still puts a heavy strain on the teambuilder and you don't need heavy support to make it do enough work that the opponent can't do nothing but get in a losing position after they had to deal with Manaphy.
ngl should have kept this for the manaphy thread but Eve wanted a good manaphy post
Bad opinion coming right up.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but after playing the tier for a while now, I no longer see Manaphy as the broken threat I once did. A few things have happened to cause this change in opinion:
1. Drizzle is gone. Manaphy under rain had so much initial breaking power that it could more easily set up. Now without rain, it is a lot safer to stay in on manaphy and chip it for setting up.
2. Offense reigns supreme. Perhaps the most dominant team composition at the moment is varying forms of offense. There are just too many Pokemon that fit comfortably on these playstyles that together check Manaphy for me to consider Manaphy banworthy. You have Latios and Starmie which commonly run Electric coverage, Garchomp which outspeeds and does upwards of 50 with quake alone, Breloom which commonly runs sash, and quite a few other mons that can revenge. Manaphy cannot so easily set up anymore without rain boosting its attacks, giving it that initial offensive power to force a switch, and I for one have not been swept by a manaphy once since the Drizzle ban came through. It is just too easy to chip and revenge now since Tail Glow is so incredibly telegraphed.
3. The other dominant playstyle atm is stall, which comes equipped with a range of options to beat Manaphy, notably Clefable and Shedinja. Now I do think that stall has a rougher time into Manaphy than offense if only because its counterplay to Manaphy is literally telegraphed at team preview; however, the matchup is not unwinnable.
Is Manaphy strong? Absolutely. Mon is really good. Tail Glow for sure demands respect in the builder. Is it as strong as something like, say, Gengar? Not really, at least in my experience.
opinion coming right up.This may be an unpopular opinion, but after playing the tier for a while now, I no longer see Manaphy as the broken threat I once did. A few things have happened to cause this change in opinion:
1. Drizzle is gone. Manaphy under rain had so much initial breaking power that it could more easily set up. Now without rain, it is a lot safer to stay in on manaphy and chip it for setting up.
2. Offense reigns supreme. Perhaps the most dominant team composition at the moment is varying forms of offense. There are just too many Pokemon that fit comfortably on these playstyles that together check Manaphy for me to consider Manaphy banworthy. You have Latios and Starmie which commonly run Electric coverage, Garchomp which outspeeds and does upwards of 50 with quake alone, Breloom which commonly runs sash, and quite a few other mons that can revenge. Manaphy cannot so easily set up anymore without rain boosting its attacks, giving it that initial offensive power to force a switch, and I for one have not been swept by a manaphy once since the Drizzle ban came through. It is just too easy to chip and revenge now since Tail Glow is so incredibly telegraphed.
3. The other dominant playstyle atm is stall, which comes equipped with a range of options to beat Manaphy, notably Clefable and Shedinja. Now I do think that stall has a rougher time into Manaphy than offense if only because its counterplay to Manaphy is literally telegraphed at team preview; however, the matchup is not unwinnable.
Is Manaphy strong? Absolutely. Mon is really good. Tail Glow for sure demands respect in the builder. Is it as strong as something like, say, Gengar? Not really, at least in my experience.
While i agree that Drizzle being gone made Manaphy more manageable, i believe the trends you described (Offensive playstyles and Stall being dominant) are a direct consequence of Manaphy presence in the tier. Like with any offensive Pokemon, there are two mains ways to check Manaphy: offensively and defensively.
Defensively, Manaphy has answers, of course, otherwise Stall wouldn't be that good in this metagame: CM Blissey, Shedinja, Mantine or Unaware Clefable (assuming no Skill Swap) are prime example of such checks. However, those defensive checks fits better on stall than any other archetype, because they either requires specific team support or need solid defensive backbone alongside them to mitigate their passivity. Other bulky archetypes relying on defensive cores tends to lack the slots to be able to have a solid answer to most common threats of the metagame, and i strongly believe Manaphy is one of the presences responsible of this dynamic.
Offensively, i feel like Manaphy has ways around lot of its offensive counterplay (i will develop that a bit later in this post), which already feels a bit limited to me. Latios has been mentionned as an offensive check multiple times, and while it indeed is an offensive check to Manaphy, it has to be Specs or Life Orb to take on a healthy Manaphy, since raw Draco Meteor/Tbolt/Thunder does not OHKO Manaphy after rocks. LO Tbolt Starmie doesn't secure the KO itself without a fair amount of chip.
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 255-300 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 255-302 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 274-325 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Manaphy even has odds to survive specs Latios, assuming rocks aren't up:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Unless we go for Specs Thunder (which isn't super reliable either):
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 358-422 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 255-302 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 274-325 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Manaphy even has odds to survive specs Latios, assuming rocks aren't up:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Unless we go for Specs Thunder (which isn't super reliable either):
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 358-422 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Don't get me wrong, however: i currently don't have a strong opinion on Manaphy (yet), but i felt like it wouldn't be very correct to not mention that, under favorable circumstances, Manaphy can actually beat said offensive checks. Of course you can't expect those positionings to always happen, but in my opinion you can already argue that if there are scenarios where a Pokemon can beat its checks without involving haxx, there might be a problem with this Pokemon.
For now, while waiting for the Manaphy suspect to arrive, instead of debating whether Manaphy is too much or not for the metagame, i suggest we discuss how we could break Manaphy if it isn't already broken. How can we figure out if Manaphy if broken if we didn't figure out yet its full potential?
I'll start by discussing about the item slot. I believe there is some huge unexplored potential here, especially since most Manaphy i saw on the ladder run Leftovers for some reason. Here are some examples of items that can potentially be gamebreaking on Manaphy:
Wacan Berry and Salac Berry both allow Manaphy to break through all the offensive checks mentionned in dex's post bar Sash Breloom, either by significantly reducing the power of the Electric-Type coverage aimed at it or making Manaphy faster than the whole unboosted metagame, making Pokemon relying on their speed to check it obsolete.
That might look like a joke, but Manaphy is probably the best Quick Claw abuser in the metagame. Of course, it's not a reliable item, but Manaphy doesn't rely on its item to perform its main role anyway, and having 20% odds to bullshit through teams relying on revenge killers to deal with Manaphy is absolutely stupid. Quick Claw Manaphy also saw usage in the National Dex metagame while it was legal, and while comparing different metagames is usually not a good starting ground for a good argument, i personally don't see why Manaphy wouldn't be able to replicate this feat in the BDSP OU metagame. However, in my opinion, this item cannot make Manaphy banworthy by itself: even if we take Manaphy out of the equation, Quick Claw is an uncompetitive item by nature, and should be quickbanned from this metagame as soon as possible.
I would like to hear other people opinions about Manaphy (and, why not about, Quick Claw too): what other items could work on Manaphy? Do screens have the potential to break it as well? Any other innovations to share? I think it is very important to explore this Pokemon as much as possible before the suspect starts. The suspect thread will be a dedicated place to argue about Manaphy brokeness, so for the time being it will be more productive for the community to figure out Manaphy's full set of capabilities, to be as well informed as possible at the time of the vote.