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Baton Pass Marathon (Coded! Looking for a server)
- Thread starter Rumors
- Start date
Is Punishment really that useless?
Yes, yes it is.
20+20BP per boost on the target is crap for a number of reasons. It has to compete with Foul Play, which is powerful regardless of how boosted the enemy is, and for instance one Swords Dance is 95 BPx2 for Foul Play while Punishment will be... 60 BP after one enemy Swords Dance. It also has to compete with Topsy-Turvy, Psych Up, Sacred Sword, Chip Away, Frost Breath, Storm Throw, and even Focus Energy: a target with x4 Defense will take, from Punishment, a 140 BP attack that does 1/4th its base damage eg basically a 35 BP move, vs these other effects more meaningfully punishing being hugely statted up (Topsy-Turvy, Psych Up, Foul Play) or flat out ignoring the boosts while having actually decent BP. (Sacred Sword, Chip Away, crits) Even Pokemon with maxed Defense and Special Defense (Or some other stat) getting hit by Punishment is the equivalent of a 70 BP attack, which is still crap compared to these other options. (OK, to be fair, Chip Away is only 70 BP) You have to have something beyond 18 total boosts before Punishment starts to look good compared to these other options, basically, and that just reinforces the utility of Transform/Imposter, Topsy-Turvy, Psych Up, Haze, etc.
It would be another thing entirely if there was even a single instance of a Pokemon with Unaware and Punishment, which would actually be really amazing against walls trying to wall. Three stat boosts and it's equal to Crunch, and past that it will quickly equal and then exceed Boomburst, followed by V-Create, and then even Explosion. But no such Pokemon exists.
The one real exception is that if Quiver Dance ends up dominating the metagame Punishment starts to be appealing, since it won't have its damage lowered and Foul Play runs off Attack in specific. Even so, Topsy-Turvy etc.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
punishment has a base power of 60. and then adds 20 per boost aquired. so for example, a poke with +2 on every stat would be:
60+(200)=260.
yeah...definatly a considerable option for a metagame like this. too bad the distribution is crap.
Huh. Thought it was a base of 20. +40 BP doesn't do much to change my point though, Punishment will generally be a poor choice when compared against Foul Play, etc.
Though it is worth commentary that A: it doesn't care about net positive (A Pokemon with +4 in one stat and -4 in another stat will not be hit with a 60 BP Punishment, it'll be 140 BP) and B: it'll be a lot more reliable in a meta that's going to revolve around stat boosts that rarely die. Some Pokemon might actually prefer to run it over Crunch/Night Slash just because it'll be really rare for it to be weaker than them.
Though it is worth commentary that A: it doesn't care about net positive (A Pokemon with +4 in one stat and -4 in another stat will not be hit with a 60 BP Punishment, it'll be 140 BP) and B: it'll be a lot more reliable in a meta that's going to revolve around stat boosts that rarely die. Some Pokemon might actually prefer to run it over Crunch/Night Slash just because it'll be really rare for it to be weaker than them.
Also, btw, i named the few stuff from my head that i remembered, but topsy turvy and punishment sure are viable choices
Oh, and i thought of this:
Primeape @ Focus Sash/Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt/Whirlwind
- Seismic Toss/Punishment/Insert Damaging move here
- Encore/Whirlwind
- Substitute/Hone Claws/Work Up
Sweet utility mon, stopping a sweep or defog switch-in,works well with hazards as it can abuse whirlwind,taunt,encore and substitute causing switches easily. Also, if you encore a status move and then use taunt, you can setup and proceed to switch, even though its really frail, if you bring it out at the right time, it can really do some work.
Oh, and i thought of this:
Primeape @ Focus Sash/Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt/Whirlwind
- Seismic Toss/Punishment/Insert Damaging move here
- Encore/Whirlwind
- Substitute/Hone Claws/Work Up
Sweet utility mon, stopping a sweep or defog switch-in,works well with hazards as it can abuse whirlwind,taunt,encore and substitute causing switches easily. Also, if you encore a status move and then use taunt, you can setup and proceed to switch, even though its really frail, if you bring it out at the right time, it can really do some work.
The best Punishment user is going to be Mega-Absol, as it gets STAB, is immune to Stored Power, and has Magic Bounce
In that vein of thinking, Storm Throw and Frost Breath will be good moves. I think we may want to start talking about individual pokemon. As I have mentioned, Mega Absol will be good with Magic Bounce. It can also pass Swords Dances and Nasty Plot. It is also powerful enough to easily beat Quagsire, which is the main physical Unaware pokemon. It may have with Clefable however. Speaking of Quagsire, it will be a good pokemon for its ability to use attack and defense buffs from other to easily beat the opposing team. It will also experience less Toxic stall I predict, as this metagame will faster paced unless Unaware really takes off. Mold Breaker can still bypass Unaware
Yeah, ive been thinking about frost breath and storm throw, so maybe anger point users may be viable somewhat.
Only if you bother to bolster your crit rate somehow -Super Luck, Scope Lens, Focus Energy- because otherwise it's just jumping from a 6.25% chance of occurring to a 12.5% chance of occurring, which is not something to count on. And Focus Energy being a +2 to crit means it would bring Punishment up to a 50% chance of critting, at which point the potential to have vastly more BP on a highly boosted target combined with good odds of a crit starts to look better. And if you've got a Scope Lens or Super Luck+Focus Energy then Punishment will be a 100% crit chance anyway, rendering Night Slash irrelevant. (Absol gets Super Luck, Punishment, and Night Slash, so this isn't even academic)
how come no one else has posted this!? this will be EXTREMELY useful, the only reason NOT to use this would be if you want to use psych up
Have to note that Absol is the only abuser, and enjoys the mega anyways, meaning it loses out on Super Luck and Scope Lens. Plus, due to a huge lack of distribution, it really isn't very noteworthy (Landorus, Weavile, and Absol being the only remotely decent users of it, and all being frail, which will be a pain in the ass in a game revolved around constant offensive buffing and Terrakion likely becoming a thing.)
until someone decides to use haze..... or unaware..... or a bug type move.
After going through the thread a couple of times, and seeing no real opposing arguments, I'm going to go ahead and ban Acupressure on the grounds of it being able to violate Evasion clause too reliably. Consider this part of the initial list of clauses. I'm not willing to change any mechanics beyond the effects of normal switching, so adjusting the move itself is out of the question. I'd also rather not create a clause for a 1/7 chance effect on a single move either.
To keep things going, Trick Room came to mind as a potential strategy in this meta. Normally Trick Room, while viable, is not an easy strategy to execute and the best Pokemon for it are fairly limited since they need to be slow and have stats competitive with the tier you're playing.
However, I suspect boosting speed will be relatively common, if just by Q. Dance, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, or Smeargle's Geomancy. And Sticky Web might also be because of the stacking speed debuff. As such, while they're boosting speed, you could focus on defense and offense boosting exclusively. And, once you're ready to sweep, reverse the speed tiers and make the opponent (hopefully) cry now that their speed buffs/Sticky Web are working against them. Also, speed boosting/Sticky Web makes the natural speed tiers less meaningful, which means faster Pokemon could probably be viable on a BPM Trick Room team who wouldn't be very compatible with the strategy in standard.
However, I suspect boosting speed will be relatively common, if just by Q. Dance, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, or Smeargle's Geomancy. And Sticky Web might also be because of the stacking speed debuff. As such, while they're boosting speed, you could focus on defense and offense boosting exclusively. And, once you're ready to sweep, reverse the speed tiers and make the opponent (hopefully) cry now that their speed buffs/Sticky Web are working against them. Also, speed boosting/Sticky Web makes the natural speed tiers less meaningful, which means faster Pokemon could probably be viable on a BPM Trick Room team who wouldn't be very compatible with the strategy in standard.
And you can just set up curse. Outspeed everything in TR.
Using Curse would probably set alarms ringing in any decent player's head in this meta. I'd be cautious about using it in even a Trick Room team.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Sorry for the threadcromancy, but I was browsing serebii and found a move that would work pretty well here: Chip away. It's 70 BP and ignores target's stat changes, meaning all those cotton guards are worthless. And some pretty decent pokemon get it, such as Conkeldurr or Tyranitar. Or if you want a real nuke, you can always run it on banded slaking just to take something out, then switch out again. Given you've only got to take out one poke to break the baton pass chain, it could be pretty effective. Quagsire still walls it, but teams should probably be running mons to deal with unaware users anyway.
There's also Sacred Sword that does the same thing, except stronger and far less distribution. Either way, might be the first meta where Chip Away is actually good.
Also, it occurs to me that Infiltrator may be very useful. I suspect substitute will be common and Infiltrator will let you bypass that. Off the top of my head, Chandelure is a good user, but I'm not sure who else. Crobat?
Also, it occurs to me that Infiltrator may be very useful. I suspect substitute will be common and Infiltrator will let you bypass that. Off the top of my head, Chandelure is a good user, but I'm not sure who else. Crobat?
Noivern also gets it, so that's nice.
Also, I have discovered the quickest way to get to max attack and some defencive buffs! Boosts, my name is Numuel!
Numel @ Focus Sash/Eviolite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 SpD
Careful Nature
- Growth
- Stockpile
- Flame Charge
- Substitute
This set is required to be used with a sunny day/drought user. You see, in sun Growth boosts Attack and special Attack by 2. Numuel is the only pokemon to get both growth and simple. This allows it to get +4 Attack (times 3) in one turn! It also has stockpile and flame charge to get up more boosts! I think this has a lot of potential if you pass some defensive buffs to it beforehand.
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G-Luke used Max Revive!!
Eevee said to focus on caring existing metas instead of making new ones all the time, so here are some sets for Baton Pass Marathon!
Well, I hope people will OBEY UR MASTER GENERAL look into this meta, as it has crap loads of potential.
Eevee said to focus on caring existing metas instead of making new ones all the time, so here are some sets for Baton Pass Marathon!
Latios @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Mememto
What kills, removes hazards (plus immune to BROKEN AS FUK Sticky Web), Lowers a teams evasion AND cripple offensive teams, all while maintaining momentum? Latios that's who! Its set is usually standard baring Defog and Memento. Draco to kill things (even though D.Pulse is better), Psyshock for blobs, Defog to remove ever present hazards and finally Memento, to cripple offensive teams and preserve momentum. Expect Latios everywhere to run this or a similar set.
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Mememto
What kills, removes hazards (plus immune to
Absol @ Absolite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Pressure
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Punishment
- Swords Dance
Combine w/ Sticky Web support, and you have probably the most DANEROUS sweeper in the metagame! With ALL the stat boosts (and drops) happening, Absol's claim to fame comes from having the strongest Punishment in the game. With a single stat boost or drop, Punishment hits 80 BP. But with all of the set ups going on, its not unlikely it hits at least 120 BP or even more! Sucker Punch hits faster foes and Play Rough provides stellar coverage. Swords Dance boosts it power to super threating levels! This is something that should be prepared for. Always
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Pressure
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Punishment
- Swords Dance
Combine w/ Sticky Web support, and you have probably the most DANEROUS sweeper in the metagame! With ALL the stat boosts (and drops) happening, Absol's claim to fame comes from having the strongest Punishment in the game. With a single stat boost or drop, Punishment hits 80 BP. But with all of the set ups going on, its not unlikely it hits at least 120 BP or even more! Sucker Punch hits faster foes and Play Rough provides stellar coverage. Swords Dance boosts it power to super threating levels! This is something that should be prepared for. Always
Shuckle @ Leftovers / Mental Herb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Sturdy
Bold Nature
0 IVs Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Rock Tomb / Knock Off
- Infestation / Toxic / Encore
Don't let powerful setup sweepers and Stored Power spam fool you, THIS is the bane of offense. The ability to GUAREENTEE that the opposing team is at least -1 speed is simply astonishing. The first two moves are mandatory, and the last moveslots are splashable! Rock Tomb does something and drops speed too! Knock off also does something, and removes items. Toxic annoys walls, Infestation is for trapping, and Encore traps stuff into moves (but since boosts always go away, its not always a good idea). Just know seeing this in team preview should send shivers in your back.
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Sturdy
Bold Nature
0 IVs Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Rock Tomb / Knock Off
- Infestation / Toxic / Encore
Don't let powerful setup sweepers and Stored Power spam fool you, THIS is the bane of offense. The ability to GUAREENTEE that the opposing team is at least -1 speed is simply astonishing. The first two moves are mandatory, and the last moveslots are splashable! Rock Tomb does something and drops speed too! Knock off also does something, and removes items. Toxic annoys walls, Infestation is for trapping, and Encore traps stuff into moves (but since boosts always go away, its not always a good idea). Just know seeing this in team preview should send shivers in your back.
Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Intimidate
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-Turn
- Knock Off / Explosion
Its kinda simple. Come in, Intimidate. U-Turn out. Kill shit with EQ and burds with SE if neccesary. Repeat. Its that simple. EQ and Stone Edge provide great neutral coverage, U-Turn is amazing and Knock Off and Explosion have their merits.
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Intimidate
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-Turn
- Knock Off / Explosion
Its kinda simple. Come in, Intimidate. U-Turn out. Kill shit with EQ and burds with SE if neccesary. Repeat. Its that simple. EQ and Stone Edge provide great neutral coverage, U-Turn is amazing and Knock Off and Explosion have their merits.
Manectric @ Manectite
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Lightning Rod
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power (Ice/Grass)
Its basically Scarf landy but special. I don't like Manectric that much, but it forms a great VoltTurn core with Landorus-T, stacking Intimidates.
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Lightning Rod
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power (Ice/Grass)
Its basically Scarf landy but special. I don't like Manectric that much, but it forms a great VoltTurn core with Landorus-T, stacking Intimidates.
Clefable @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SpA
Ability: Unaware
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Rest
- Cosmic Power / Calm Mind
- Charge Beam / Thunder Wave / Moonblast / Fire Blast
Cancerfable in the flesh. This OP boss has SOOOO many viable sets in this meta its hilarious. How can something so megear looking stat wise be so powerful? Unaware. This makes all those QDs and SSs insignificant, and , for this set, allows it set up a lot easier. Since it doesn't solely rely on itself to boost its SpA, its last moveslot can be used for a wide variety of things, from Moonblast to SRs. S-Ranked in OU, S-Rank in here too!
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SpA
Ability: Unaware
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Rest
- Cosmic Power / Calm Mind
- Charge Beam / Thunder Wave / Moonblast / Fire Blast
Cancerfable in the flesh. This OP boss has SOOOO many viable sets in this meta its hilarious. How can something so megear looking stat wise be so powerful? Unaware. This makes all those QDs and SSs insignificant, and , for this set, allows it set up a lot easier. Since it doesn't solely rely on itself to boost its SpA, its last moveslot can be used for a wide variety of things, from Moonblast to SRs. S-Ranked in OU, S-Rank in here too!
Well, I hope people will