Base Power Damage

[Temporaryanonymous]

Approved by The Immortal and Eevee General and also Unfixable thinks it's cool

A move's base power generally gives you an idea of how powerful it is, but the actual damage requires a complex formula of adding, multiplying, and dividing. What if moves and damaging were simpler? What if a move's base power decides how much damage it does?

The Main Rule:

• On normal situations, a move's base power decides how much damage it does. (Swift does 60 damage, Flamethrower does 90, High Jump Kick does 130)

Extra Rules:

• STAB is taken into account as a 1.5x boost (A water type using Surf will do 135 damage while a non-water type using Surf will do 90)
• Type effectiveness is taken into account (Ice Beam against a Gliscor will do 360 damage while Ice Beam against a Zapdos will do 180 and Ice Beam against a Cryogonal will do 45)
• Moves with variable base power (Gyro Ball, Water Spout, Seismic Toss, Psywave) do damage based on its base power
• Abilities are also taken into account (Adaptability users get 2x on STAB, Fur Coat cuts physical damage in half, Thick Fat halves Fire and Ice damage, Blaze/Overgrow/Torrent/Swarm will increase the power of Fire/Grass/Water/Bug moves by 50% if the user has 33% HP or less, Technician increases damage done by 50% if the move has 60 base power or less, Strong Jaws boosts biting moves by 50%)
• Stat changes are taken into account (A neutral +1 Dragon Claw will do 120 damage while a neutral +2 Dragon Claw will do 160 damage, defense boosts work likewise)
• Critical hits will increase the damage by 50% and ignore offensive drops and defense boosts
• Type boosting moves boost damage done by that type by 20%. Expert Belt increases Super effective moves by 20%
• Choice Band/Specs increases physical/special damage by 50% but locks you into a move. Choice Scarf works as normal
• Life Orb increases damage done by 30% at the expense of 10% HP loss each attack
• Certain Pokemon-exclusive items like Thick Club or Light Orb or Stick work like they're supposed to (either doubling attack/damage or increase critical chances)
• A Pokemon not fully evolved holding Eviolite takes 33% less damage
• Moves that heal or do damage based on a % work as normal
• Secondary effects work as normal

In this meta, more Pokemon will be able to make use of both their physical and special movesets, as with almost the removal of atk/def/spA/spD base stats, there is a bigger emphasis on HP and spe. Of course, most Pokemon will be running 252hp 252spe+ sets. Pokemon like Wailord and Drifblim will be able to shine because of their ludicrously high HP, making them extremely hard to take down, while also hitting just as hard as most other Pokemon.

Possible bans:

• Huge Power and Pure Power seem powerful, and thus will have no effect for balance
• Some high HP Pokemon that are too strong
• Eviolite, Pokemon-specific items for possibly being too powerful
• Recovery moves

 

[Kit Kasai]

I think you mean eviolite reduces damage, not increases it.

Anyways you should probably ban high hp mons because this looks extremely difficult to kill:

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Soft-Boiled

Cool meta idea though. Means that everything is a lot bulkier now, as attacking stats mean nothing. Also means that certain mons that were previously defensive can take sweeping roles (like chans above).

I'll look for more interesting stuff later.

 

[Tarontos]

huge power and pure power should have some effectmaybe tone it down to a 1.5 times multiplier

 

[Mulan15262]

Recovery moves should be banned immediately. They would allow you to wall anything if your max HP is high enough.

 

[omnisc]

Approved by The Immortal and Eevee General and also Unfixable thinks it's cool

A move's base power generally gives you an idea of how powerful it is, but the actual damage requires a complex formula of adding, multiplying, and dividing. What if moves and damaging were simpler? What if a move's base power decides how much damage it does?

The Main Rule:

• On normal situations, a move's base power decides how much damage it does. (Swift does 60 damage, Flamethrower does 90, High Jump Kick does 130)

Extra Rules:

• STAB is taken into account as a 1.5x boost (A water type using Surf will do 135 damage while a non-water type using Surf will do 90)
• Type effectiveness is taken into account (Ice Beam against a Gliscor will do 360 damage while Ice Beam against a Zapdos will do 180 and Ice Beam against a Cryogonal will do 45)
• Moves with variable base power (Gyro Ball, Water Spout, Seismic Toss, Psywave) do damage based on its base power
• Abilities are also taken into account (Adaptability users get 2x on STAB, Fur Coat cuts physical damage in half, Thick Fat halves Fire and Ice damage, Blaze/Overgrow/Torrent/Swarm will increase the power of Fire/Grass/Water/Bug moves by 50% if the user has 33% HP or less, Technician increases damage done by 50% if the move has 60 base power or less, Strong Jaws boosts biting moves by 50%)
• Stat changes are taken into account (A neutral +1 Dragon Claw will do 120 damage while a neutral +2 Dragon Claw will do 160 damage, defense boosts work likewise)
• Critical hits will increase the damage by 50% and ignore offensive drops and defense boosts
• Type boosting moves boost damage done by that type by 20%. Expert Belt increases Super effective moves by 20%
• Choice Band/Specs increases physical/special damage by 50% but locks you into a move. Choice Scarf works as normal
• Life Orb increases damage done by 30% at the expense of 10% HP loss each attack
• Certain Pokemon-exclusive items like Thick Club or Light Orb or Stick work like they're supposed to (either doubling attack/damage or increase critical chances)
• A Pokemon not fully evolved holding Eviolite takes 33% more damage
• Moves that heal or do damage based on a % work as normal
• Secondary effects work as normal

In this meta, more Pokemon will be able to make use of both their physical and special movesets, as with almost the removal of atk/def/spA/spD base stats, there is a bigger emphasis on HP and spe. Of course, most Pokemon will be running 252hp 252spe+ sets. Pokemon like Wailord and Drifblim will be able to shine because of their ludicrously high HP, making them extremely hard to take down, while also hitting just as hard as most other Pokemon.

Possible bans:

• Huge Power and Pure Power seem powerful, and thus will have no effect for balance
• Some high HP Pokemon that are too strong
• Eviolite, Pokemon-specific items for possibly being too powerful
• Recovery moves

 

[xJownage]

high HP mons + setup rules this meta, to the point where its absolutely insane what will happen to all archetypes. Sounds like a cool idea, although not my favorite thing since this is about fast boosting.

belly drum is actually amazing here.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Recovery moves should be banned immediately. They would allow you to wall anything if your max HP is high enough.

Far from true. Recovery only has 16 pp and mons can easily boost over. Same reason recovery moves are not op in standards.

Edit:

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

COME AT ME BRUH

 

[Klang]

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Softboiled

You should dump the rest of the EVs into speed since both attack and defense stats are useless here.

With that said, Shell Smash Smeargle sounds absolutely ridiculous here:

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Spore
- Knock Off

After setting up a smash, Boomburst does 504 damage not taking type resistances into account. Knock off kills ghosts and if something walls you then you just spore it lol.

EDIT: Since confusion damage is a base 50 power attack against oneself, will the new mechanics apply to confusion as well?

 

[omnisc]

i'm scared of wobbuffet. anyone else agree?

 

[FlameUser64]

A Pokemon not fully evolved holding Eviolite takes 33% more damage

I'm confused by this. Do you really mean "A non-fully evolved Pokémon that is not holding Eviolite takes 33% more damage"?

 

[Tarontos]

pretty sure they mean evolvite reduces damage by 33%(ie one stage)
Sounds fun-Choice band victini though could be deadly thats 180*1.5*1.5=270*1.5=405
you need at least 101 base hp to tank that hit on a neutral hit
if Stealth rock is up 127HP assuming neutrality to both fire and rock

And what tier is this in?
the whole Eliminating of offensive and defenses stats may make pretty much every thing equal.
Can natures be taken into acount to take .91 damage from say physical attack or deal 1.1 damage on a physical attack
one more thing
Belly drum Linnoone 4*1.5*1.2(Silk Skarf)*80=576
4*1.5*1.2*102=734.4(enogh to oneHKO a blissey and 2hko a chansy)
480 gunk shot
240 thief

 

[FlameUser64]

pretty sure they mean evolvite reduces damage by 33%(ie one stage)
Sounds fun-Choice band victini though could be deadly thats 180*1.5*1.5=270*1.5=405
you need at least 101 base hp to tank that hit on a neutral hit
if Stealth rock is up 127HP assuming neutrality to both fire and rock

And what tier is this in?
the whole Eliminating of offensive and defenses stats may make pretty much every thing equal.

It's called Eviolite, not Evolvite. lol.

You should dump the rest of the EVs into speed since both attack and defense stats are useless here.

With that said, Shell Smash Smeargle sounds absolutely ridiculous here:

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Spore
- Knock Off

After setting up a smash, Boomburst does 504 damage not taking type resistances into account. Knock off kills ghosts and if something walls you then you just spore it lol.

EDIT: Since confusion damage is a base 50 power attack against oneself, will the new mechanics apply to confusion as well?

By the way, use Extreme Speed on this to not get killed by priority y/n? 80 * 1.5 * 1.2 * 2 = 288 damage before resists.

 

[DinaIsha]

Why ban Recovery moves? By that argument, Setup moves should be banned as well.

Wait around until the Meta is coded and hosted to decide on bans.

Off the top of my head, Light Orb Fake Out + ESpeed + Volt Tackle Pikachu sounds scary.

 

[Mygavolt]

From what I can tell, 252 HP / 252 Speed Timid (or 248 HP to mess with residual damage) is the optimal spread for everything (sans Trick Room) and whether a Pokémon uses physical or special moves depends not on its superior stat but on the stat to which its boosts are dedicated.

Thinking about it, I assume that if you have a move with a base power that is not a whole number (e.g. Knock Off has 97.5 BP on a target with a removable item) then the damage output is rounded down (e.g. the aforesaid Knock Off to 97) after calculation (so if the Knock Off were super-effective it would do 195).

Also, with all this talk about setup, of course my mind turned to Unaware. Speaking of which, maybe Bibarel and Swoobat, who are better known for Simple, could actually make this ability useful now that their shaky stats matter less.
- 362 HP, 265 Speed. Yawn for potentially forcing a switch, Scald for a nice base 120 burning move, Thunder Wave for paralysis, and potentially Stealth Rock for utility. Icy Wind is a thing as well.
- 338 HP, 359 Speed. It can Taunt, Knock Off, Roost, U-turn, Air Slash, Thunder Wave...all sorts of things. Unfortunately, even though it is the fastest user (as little as that matters if the opponent has a Speed-boosting setup move and/or priority), it has the lowest HP of all the fully evolved users.
tfw no Whirlwind
- 394 HP, 240 Speed. It is understandable that Clefable is usually the go-to Pokémon for Unaware, what with its nice HP and great typing. It can pretty much run the OU set (with modifications to nature and EVs, of course) and use Wish+Protect to support itself and its teammates.
- 394 HP, 185 Speed. The slowest fully evolved Unaware user, although tied for the highest HP and having only one weakness. Unfortunately, its movepool is not much to behold; Scald and Recover are pretty much the most notable options it has.

You could also use a NFE Pokémon with Eviolite, but Knock Off is a thing. Nonetheless, here are the options:
- 322 HP, 177 Speed. Even though it has the best bulk of the NFEs, the slight margin is not worth being slower than Quagsire and lacking Scald.
- 314 HP, 267 Speed. It loses a lot of Speed compared to its evolution, but it's still faster than Bibarel and can definitely survive hits better. While it does not miss anything notable to which its evolution has access, its weakness to Knock Off does not help its cause.
- 314 HP, 141 Speed. The absolute slowest Unaware user, who still only has one weakness and does not lack anything significant that its evolution has (unless Rock Tomb is worth using on Quagsire).

 

[JungleB]

This seems really cool! I'll come up with some sets later because I'm off for school soon, but will some of the Ubers without absurd amounts of HP be unbanned? If so, I can foresee the Hoenn weather trio being very useful due to their high damage signature moves.

 

[omnisc]

Why ban Recovery moves? By that argument, Setup moves should be banned as well.

Wait around until the Meta is coded and hosted to decide on bans.

Off the top of my head, Light Orb Fake Out + ESpeed + Volt Tackle Pikachu sounds scary.

Fake out+Espeed is incompatible for pikachu, just saying. but things like pikachu and marowak could get scary..although pikachu,with low hp, may even be inferior

 

[canno]

Smeargle looks really fun in this meta.

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Soak

FakeSpeed Smeargle is actually kind of rad thanks to its access to Technician. FakeSpeed has the same power as Boomburst
40*1.5 (tech)*1.5 (STAB)*1.2 (silk) = 108
80*1.5 (STAB)*1.2(Silk)=144
144+108=252
140*1.5(STAB)*1.2(Silk)=252

It's pretty powerful. Soak might seem strange, but Soak allows Smeargle to deal with both Ghosts and resists with one fell swoop, unlike running a Dark / Ghost move. However, you can run a Dark move over Soak since it also hits resistances neutrally. Another options is Dark Void, although this set is more fo a revenge killing set. Alternatively...

Smeargle @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst / Exterme Speed
- V-create
- Frost Breath
- Bolt Strike

Smeargle has, hands down, the best coverage in the game - and the strongest coverage! Frost Breath might seem odd, but it actually hits 135 BP thanks to Technician and its auto-crit ability. Meanwhile everything else are just high BP moves that have good coverage. What separates this from Victini is tech Frost Breath and access to either Boomburst or ExtremeSpeed. You can also slip in Dark Void if that floats your boat.

 

[DinaIsha]

Please. Meet the really scary Smeargle:

Smeargle @ Life Orb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Frost Breath
- Spore

Everything is kill (Anything not kill is sleep). Or an outright Banded set with UTurn/Trick/KOff/Explosion.

And surprise, surprise Fake Out + Last Resort makes its return. And not just on Smeargle.

 

[Lcass4919]

since setup moves/choice items(bar scarf obs) are affecting the actual base stat, rather then the attacking move(life orb for example, affects the move rather then the stat) i don't think setup OR choice items should really do anything in this meta.

 

[Kit Kasai]

since setup moves/choice items(bar scarf obs) are affecting the actual base stat, rather then the attacking move(life orb for example, affects the move rather then the stat) i don't think setup should really do anything in this meta.

That's true, but I think making them that way makes the meta more interesting (also makes it so recovery isn't op)

 

[Lcass4919]

That's true, but I think making them that way makes the meta more interesting (also makes it so recovery isn't op)

yes, but then technically you are revamping actual mechanics, which iirc would make this a pet mod... plus recovery is banned apparently. so "Eye for an eye" really.

i mean, correct me if im wrong im just sayin

 

[Kit Kasai]

Not really, if you define it as being something like "anything that results in damage being boosted boosts the base power of the move (and thus the damage)"

Ignoring attacking/defending stats

 

[Ghoul King]

Nifty. A big implication of this is that typing is considerably more important than non-HP defensive stats for deciding how tough you are -that and any relevant Abilities. Another implication is that there's really no reason to care about whether a coverage move is Physical or Special, barring Assault Vests, Choice items, etc. Your Physical Pokemon wants Water coverage, has no Physical Water, but it has Surf? Just slap Surf on!

Shedinja is, oddly enough, better here. Rather than having a merely OK 90 Attack holding it back, it punches as hard as its moves allow it to punch, and it gets Swords Dance. Though unfortunately its only use for EVs is to max its Speed, which is lame when everything is going to max HP and Speed anyway.

Lanturn is actually cool here, with an amazing typing and 125 base HP, while the fact that its Defense is crap is irrelevant. Huzzah for the happy anglerfish!

Aurorus is also better, in spite of its horrible typing, since its mediocre defenses are ignorable while its 123 HP is not.

Gogoat is cool.

Same for Lapras and Vaporeon.

Cresellia is goddamn terrifying.

Wigglytuff is going to be good, I suspect. Competitive!

Rhyperior is much better, since Special attackers can't murder it just because they're Special -on the other hand its 130 Defense is also useless, so it's not tanking Aqua Tail coverage. But still, 115 HP is nothing to laugh at, and it gets Rock Wrecker and Solid Rock... and it has an excellent Special movepool it normally has no use for. Not so here!

Stallrein: better than ever.

Oh god Mamoswine is going to be a terror.

You know, oddly enough Regigigas might be OK by using Special moves. Too bad its Special movepool is cruddy.

Emboar used Scald!

Darmanitan: better than ever. Now its HP is actually giving it real bulk!

Exploud is also better. Nice.

Malamar is going to be a terror, with spammable 120 damage self-boosting Superpowers off nobody-cares-about-stats.

Turns a lot of stuff on its head, in general. Really nifty.

yes, but then technically you are revamping actual mechanics, which iirc would make this a pet mod... plus recovery is banned apparently. so "Eye for an eye" really.

i mean, correct me if im wrong im just sayin

Recovery is not banned. It is a possible ban, which means it's on the watchlist, nothing more.

The Pokemon games also are extremely inconsistent about their framing as to whether something modifies stats or not vs the observable in-game result -for instance Burn supposedly halves Attack and Pure/Huge Power supposedly double Attack, but if a Pokemon with Huge Power uses Foul Play on a Burned Pokemon the result is that Huge Power doubles the Foul Play's damage and the target's Burn has no effect on the damage.

 

[Lcass4919]

Recovery is not banned. It is a possible ban, which means it's on the watchlist, nothing more.

The Pokemon games also are extremely inconsistent about their framing as to whether something modifies stats or not vs the observable in-game result -for instance Burn supposedly halves Attack and Pure/Huge Power supposedly double Attack, but if a Pokemon with Huge Power uses Foul Play on a Burned Pokemon the result is that Huge Power doubles the Foul Play's damage and the target's Burn has no effect on the damage.

ooooh, i see yeah, didn't notice the "possible ban" and yeah, for the most part they are inconsistent, so yeah, plus its one of those things that is impossible to actually "prove" so either or works really.

 

[Akumeoy]

Pineco @ Berry Juice / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
EVs: 156 Spe
Timid Nature
- Pain Split
- Giga Drain
- Explosion
- Utility move / Protect

Basically, a Level 1 Pain Split set to max your own HP and halve theirs, use Giga Drain for the kill. Explosion once you're up against a wall, or if you just want to get a free switch for something while doing massive damage in the process. The Speed EVs are purely there for the speed tie in the mirror match, if you feel like staying in for some reason.

Item and fourth moveslot choice are linked. You can add some utility move (such as Toxic, an entry hazard, whatever) and use Berry Juice as a failsafe to let you take some residual damage and heal back up. Alternatively, you can run Protect with Leftovers to stall for a little recovery (such as if Giga Drain doesn't do quite enough damage to heal you back up), as well as scout the opponent's moveset a bit. I prefer the first option though. Putting Lum Berry on as an afterthought for if you think you can avoid residual damage. I dunno.