Barriers of Reminscence: Long forgotten Lore

[MetaGross66]

Barriers of Reminiscence: Long forgotten Lore

Terrifying, is it not? Yes, these moves have been banished to the realms of the forgotten moves, yet they can serve a tremendous use through their effects; need I remind you, they double the defenses of the pokemon under it when active, and this can easily be abused by sweepers making it quite a potent strategy if you ask me. Today, people are focused on semi-stall and bulky offense from what I see in pokemon like Gyarados, Scizor, Latias, and Tyranitar. Screens effectively neutralize these would-be threats and allows for the disposal of such pokemon quite easily under certain conditions.


Firstly, you must have set up sweepers or sweepers that can hit hard from the start. Generally, set up sweepers will serve you more good as they really hit hard after a few turns, but have a common enemy which is pseudo hazing. This is where the off the bat hard hitters become handy, but with these pokemon being on only like 20 percent of teams seen today it isn't too much to worry about. Furthermore, you are forcing your opponent to attack you as you set up in his face if utilizing the move substitute which serves handily in the face of teams that rely on paralysis and trick. With good synergy, a team utilizing this tactic can easily run right through teams when set up. There are some enemies to this tactic, though, and they shouldn't go without mention.


Taunt- This move prevents any set up, but the most common users in mid-game are pretty slow or are KO'ed easily after one turn of set up (Tauntdos and Gliscor). Early-game is where this move hurts especially since the most common users are pretty fast, faster than Alakazam, the fastest user of both screens. Corbat and Aerodactyl are both mentioned, but neither are common enough to be considered threats as only five percent of all teams carry Aerodactyl and even less carry Crobat.


Pseudo Hazers- These are only a threat if your team doesn't utilize an off the bat sweeper. If so, the most common users are Swampert and Skarmory so HP grass Heatran should suffice, though I personally have found another set up sweeper better.


Enemy Set up Sweepers- These pokemon can give you some trouble if you lack balance in typing and choice of moves. Otherwise, a fast taunter from the beginning should keep early-game sweepers away. Besides, most are late-game sweepers and your sweepers should be ready to sweep by then.


Brick break- The bane of all DS teams. Thankfully, this move is extremely weak and so many disregard it when making a team. Besides, most of the users of this move are choiced (Scizor) so a bulky ghost can easily help here.


Besides those four things, little should give you trouble. Synergy and the pokemon you choose play a major part in the success of teams of this kind so don't immediately dismiss that just because you have screens to back you up. A balance between defense and offense can easily be achieved by these moves. They can be used in so many ways it's just amazing. I have been seeing more teams like this. This leads to GoldDraconian who thought we made something somewhat new labeled "bulky HO". What he sent me in a PM which I thought was interesting is below.

What HO Does:
Basically, regular HO works by aligning your pokes so they're all more or less all countered by the same monster or small set of monsters, then working to undermine your team's counter(s) and then set up a sweep. Typically, this means you run all physical guys or all special guys so that any walls directed at the other side of the spectrum become useless and essentially dead slots, although you can also specialize by overloading on types (usually Dragon or Water) to get a similar effect. Dual screens aren't really the essence of HO, they just make it easier for the team to beat down its counters/problem Pokemon early on, and later on it eases setup leading to sweep. It's just another element of controlling the tempo, slowing your opponent down and letting you set up and force them to keep reacting rather than implementing their own game plan. Stathakis's archived HO team actually does not make use of dual screens at all.

Problems with HO:
That said, HO can be hard to play against teams with multiple Scarfers or fast Pokemon or priority, or against strong stall teams when they play correctly, and it's pretty vulnerable to hax since you have little bulk to protect you. It also tends to lose almost guaranteed if anything ever sets up against it, so it becomes critical to prevent things from even getting the opportunity to set up safely, which forces your hand when picking out movesets (since you can't use any Pokemon that common setup Pokemon are not threatened or Taunted by).

New Direction:
None of these are insurmountable, but most people by nature lean towards bulky offense, which does not have the same kinds of issues. Bulky offense is much less efficient offensively though, because it allows more enemy walls to be effective because it does not overload on specific kinds of attacks (physical attacks, Water attacks, etc.) and does not run the same amount of setup. So what I'm proposing is basically a hybrid, where the principles of HO are still used as a guideline, but without pushing it quite as far- for example, being a little less stingy with the defense EVs, even though it does cut down on the absolute offensive capabilities, because you still have some intrinsic advantages over regular bulky offense while not really sacrificing much to get them. The team would be more or less "bad HO" if you look at it from an offensive perspective, but that's acceptable because it's not intended to blitz people necessarily, and it gains compensation defensively compared to HO.

Example:
At the moment I am most curious about an all-special "bulky HO" team, for a couple of reasons. First is that I'm generally a little more comfortable with special HO than physical, so I feel like I'm a little more qualified to go in this direction. Second, special attackers have a much more limited pool of potential counters as a group, and the metagame definitely leans physical, so there are natural advantages to refusing to play that game. Finally, the most common setup move for special attackers, Calm Mind, also helps out defensively. On the physical side you're running mostly Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, which are only aggressive in nature.

So a regular special HO team might look something like:

Azelf @Focus Sash
4 Atk/252 SpAtk/252 Speed, Naive
~ Psychic
~ Flamethrower
~ Stealth Rock
~ Explosion

Gengar @Life Orb
36 Atk/220 SpAtk/252 Speed, Naive
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast
~ Hypnosis
~ Explosion

Infernape @Life Orb
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Speed, Timid
~ Fire Blast
~ Focus Blast
~ Vacuum Wave
~ Nasty Plot

Raikou @Life Orb
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Speed, Timid
~ Thunderbolt
~ HP Grass
~ Shadow Ball
~ Calm Mind

Starmie @Life Orb
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Speed, Timid
~ Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunderbolt
~ Pain Split/Recover/whatever

Empoleon @Life Orb
16 HP/252 SpAtk/240 Speed, Modest
~ Agility
~ Ice Beam
~ Grass Knot
~ Hydro Pump

* I prefer Life Orb over Petaya here because if anything else lures a Scizor to lock into Bullet Punch, you can immediately set up and threaten to win the game. It also saves you from the embarrassing situation of setting up Petaya then running into Blissey or Vaporeon and just being forced to switch out at 25% and with no Berry left, since the team has no room for Toxic Spikes.

Basically, Azelf/Gengar/Infernape all kill Blissey, Empoleon/Starmie/Infernape/Gengar all handle specially defensive Tyranitar to varying degrees, and everything except Infernape can beat up Latias reasonably well. There isn't much else that walls special moves solidly over the long term, so after those are cleared out you can generally clean up easily.
That said, Scarf Latias and Scarf Rotom are both big nuisances, and if Salamence (with Dragon Claw) or Gyarados ever manage to DD up, the whole thing threatens to just fall apart.

An all-special "bulky HO" team might look something like this:

Forretress @Shed Shell/Leftovers/Light Clay
252 HP/4 Def/252 SpDef, Careful (or possibly more Defense at the expense of SpDef)
~ Stealth Rock
~ Toxic Spikes
~ Reflect
~ Earthquake

Jirachi @Leftovers
252 HP/76 SpAtk/180 Speed, Timid
~ Substitute
~ Calm Mind
~ Flash Cannon
~ Thunderbolt

Suicune @Leftovers
252 HP/56 SpAtk/200 Speed, Timid (or possibly Modest and drop down to ~244 Speed stat)
~ Substitute
~ Calm Mind
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam
* Optionally, could instead be CroCune, or use HP Electric over Substitute.

Latias @Life Orb
4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Speed, Timid
~ Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
~ Surf
~ Thunderbolt
~ Recover
* Optionally, could run more HP to help vs. setup pokes, or could even replace with e.g. Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Hydro Pump/Roost Salamence for Intimidate

Rotom-A @Light Clay
252 HP/(remaining EVs distributed to taste)
~ Thunderbolt
~ Shadow Ball/Hydro Pump
~ Reflect
~ Light Screen

Empoleon @Petaya Berry
12 HP/52 Def/252 SpAtk/192 Speed, Timid
~ Agility
~ Substitute
~ Ice Beam
~ Surf

This latter team somewhat resembles yours from the RMT, but it focuses entirely on special attacks and permitting special attackers to sweep. It misses out on being able to run two pokes with dual screens, but Forretress gains the key ability to drop Toxic Spikes and make it a whole lot easier to set up Suicune/Jirachi/Empoleon, and the lack of Light Screen is not a big deal as far as the CMers are concerned anyway. DS Rotom is both critical as a spinblocker to keep the TSpikes down and acts as the only "proper" dual screener. Jirachi/Suicune/Empoleon are the offensive setup core, and as an added bonus, Empoleon and Suicune are countered by almost exactly the same things and one can therefore blow a hole in the other team to permit the other to set up and win the game.

This specific team is not very refined and could certainly be optimized in various ways; it's still a little too prone to being forced to switch for my liking, among other things, and it might be better off dropping Empoleon and/or the Toxic Spikes plan for a little more direct offense or more immediately threatening setup pokes. I still think it more or less demonstrates the concept however.

It's also worth remembering that the team could instead focus on something like spamming Water moves, something like Empoleon, Suicune, CursePert, Kingdra, plus a Toxic Spiker of choice (Roserade/Forretress/Venomoth) and whatever filler. All-physical and all-special are not the only ways to go, just the most common.

Conclusion
I hope that gives you a better understanding of the direction I have specifically been curious about, and I hope I've intrigued rather than bored you with the explanation. Please let me know if this was useful to you or if you're interested in pursuing it further.

So, how game changing do you think such a style can possibly be? Discuss, please.


Here's the team Justinawe and I made for an example team of a refined and tested bulky HO team:


Rogue ZZ (Azelf) @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
---
Pegasus Magic (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/216 Spd/40 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Surf
- Ice Beam
---
Leo Kingdom (Lucario) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 86 HP/240 Atk/184 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
---
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/176 Spd/80 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
---
Dragon Sky (Salamence) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 236 HP/64 Atk/92 Spd/116 SDef
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
---
Megaman (Rotom-w) @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/100 Def/56 Spd/100 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
- Reflect
- Light Screen
---

 

[iruchii]

Terrifying, is it not? Yes, these moves have been banished to the realms of the forgotten moves

Stopped reading there. Can I have some of whatever you're smoking?

 

[boredomisbliss]

i dont think there is a lot of difference between hyper offense/heavy offense, as outlined http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61631, and a DS team. outside of heavy offense there really is little reason to use dual screens, especially since the point of things like suicune is to be able to take hits and set up over time, usually more than the 5-8 turns offered by screens. and the example team really is little different than a hyper offense team.

 

[MetaGross66]

Stopped reading there. Can I have some of whatever you're smoking?

So you're saying you've seen people use it? I haven't seen many people use this before....

The screens allow Suicune to set up on threats it otherwise couldn't. Some include stuff like Scarflatias, and bulky rotom with no special attack EVs. There is quite a difference between the two and how they are played. ;)

 

[boredomisbliss]

ive seen many teams use DS teams, the team i use in UU has a DS uxie lead

and the point of suicune is to be able to take those hits, as it can get in those crucial CMs, and then repeat, all the while wasting the enemys PP.
and why not run max hp on suicune if you are using substitute so you can set up on blissey

 

[iruchii]

So you're saying you've seen people use it? I haven't seen many people use this before....

The screens allow Suicune to set up on threats it otherwise couldn't. Some include stuff like Scarflatias, and bulky rotom with no special attack EVs.

Not many months ago, "Double Screens" was everywhere. Now, with the popularity of Heavy Offense, the screens are still pretty common. So yes, I see lots of people using them.

 

[MetaGross66]

Yeah, I'll modify it as it is has a few changes added before. Jirachi sets up on Blissey, though. If you look at the usage statistics not many people were using DS in Standard OU before September or around that time. UU DS teams are pretty common from what I see.

Suicune is supposed to get those CMs, but it can't on some pokemon and DS helps cushion those blows that make the difference between a sweep and being unable to sweep.

 

[RaikouLover]

I used Dual Screen pretty extensively on one of my balanced teams. Just keep in mind it's not just effective in setting up Pokemon, but can just make your teams defensively stronger as well. It can really help a balanced team help combat many threats.

 

[Ferrouswheel]

I use a dual screener, and have light screen on another poke to solve special defense problems, and it all tends to work well.

 

[Quaily]

I use a DS azelf on my HO team, lots of other people use it on their HO teams, and I see plenty of rotoms/latias/etc using it as well. About 12% of all azelfs are dual screeners

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Yeah, DS Azelf is extremely popular, so I really don't see why they are "forgotten moves". Azelf, Bronzong, even Cresselia are used often for their Screening capabilities, if it is on HO or even Rain Dance. I don't see a whole lot to discuss here as this is essentially HO and there's a thread for that anyway, albeit one that isn't getting anywhere either.

 

[MetaGross66]

12% isn't a lot considering only about 8 percent of all leads are Azelf. DS usage was below 8% in September. It just now became popular if you can call it that.

October:
| 1 | Azelf | 64287 | 8.12 |

| Azelf | Move | Reflect | 12.8 |
| Azelf | Move | Light Screen | 11.4 |

September:
| 1 | Azelf | 56963 | 7.39 |

| Azelf | Move | Reflect | 8.8 |

Light Screen wasn't even used as much to be on Azelf's list of moves.

 

[GoldDraconian]

For clarity, what I was interested in specifically was building teams that incorporated multiple elements of HO (dual screens, but also shared counters, redundancy, overloading on certain types of attacks, etc.) but with more bulk, permitting it to function in space somewhere between regular bulky offense and HO. The theory is basically a good product should be able to act like bulky offense except more efficiently on the offensive side because it can set up easily and overload counters and sweep. So I do not believe that just DS + bulky setup is something completely new, but mainly it has the seeds of something interesting.

 

[MetaGross66]

Ah, a mix of the two, basically. Well, it is possible, as that is what the example team is, but when we built it, we didn't think it would be a mix of the two. I thought it would be a variant of HO. I figured I wanted bulky sweepers to take the hits and set up with screens and then sweep. It's quite efficient once you see that it helps solve the problem of no reliable special priority. I also wanted another dual screener to back up the team when screens are down. The physical sweepers take on Blissey and help weaken some pokemon like Swampert and Skarmory to sweep with the special sweepers.

 

[petrie911]

Brick break- The bane of all DS teams. Thankfully, this move is extremely weak and so many disregard it when making a team. Besides, most of the users of this move are choiced (Scizor) so a bulky ghost can easily help here.

Keep in mind that, unlike Rapid Spin, the screen breaking effect of Brick Break is not blocked by ghost types.

 

[MetaGross66]

I am aware, which is why I chose Rotom as my bulky ghost. ;)

I updated the OP with what GoldDraconian PMed me. I thought it was pretty interesting, and would rather you guys focus on that. The beginning, you could say is an intro of sorts and a quick overview of what you might see in his PM.

 

[cantab]

My current team is an offensive Dual Screens team. It's not very good, but it's had some successes. Uxie lead - try and get Dual Screens up, then if my opponent brings in a sweeper I'll memento and switch in one of own my setup sweepers. Boost as they switch out, boost again thanks to the screens meaning I'm not getting knocked out, then sweep. Salamence with two Dragon Dances, or Breloom or Lucario with two swords dances wreck a lot of things.

 

[MetaGross66]

The problem might be that you are using Uxie, as it doesn't do as good of a job as Azelf on offensive Dual Screen teams. It's pretty slow (95 base speed I think) and prone to taunt from Gliscor.

 

[Despotar]

I wouldn't regard DS as a "forgotten move"
maybe not quite as much usage as it once had,
but forgotten is going a bit overboard.

 

[Diesel]

Stopped reading there. Can I have some of whatever you're smoking?

I stopped reading there also, then scrolled down and saw this comment.

@OP - You need to get rid of any mention of this moves being "forgotten" or rare (including the title of the thread), because it completely removes all credibility from the post. When I see that someone thinks these moves aren't used, I immediately think "this person has done all their 'testing' on Wi-Fi."

Personally I love screens, and use them on a lot of my teams. Dual Screen Azelf is my favorite (not necessarily as a lead) because it forces so many things out, and the switch-in may be completely unprepared to face a DS set. I essentially never fail to get both screens up, and still have plenty of HP left to switch or go BOOM.

 

[Anachronism]

This really doesn't need a new thread. You already have the HO thread and your RMT. This is essentially a thread for you to brag in, and since you haven't yet even created a good version of it, you have no reason to brag.

I think that the best lead for this type of team would be a roserade or venomoth. They are special attackers that both lay down toxic spikes. Roserade obviously has more SpA, but has problems with coverage when using only 2 moves. Venomoth might be preferred because of tinted lens, which allows bug buzz/hidden power ground to pretty much hurt everything. Shield Dust is another great ability that keeps jirachi from laying the hurt on you.

I still don't like your DS rotom. Screens aren't really that important to the team. I would rather see subcharge there.

I think that a team such as:

Standard Lead Roserade (this is sort of setup bait unfortunately)
Sub CM Jirachi
Sub CM Suicune
Sub Charge Rotom
Sub CM Cresselia
Sub Petaya Empoleon OR Sub CM Entei (yeah entei would be a bit gimmicky but it has the right resists)

 

[MetaGross66]

Where exactly have I been bragging? All I did was bring to attention to discuss what GoldDraconian told me might be a refined style of play, bulky HO, where it is basically a refined version of Bulky Offense, as he stated....

That would be a nice example there, Anachronism, but it doesn't utilize DS (not all have to). It really helps in setting up, though. As for offensive counters, please name some.

12% isn't a lot considering only about 8 percent of all leads are Azelf. DS usage was below 8% in September. It just now became popular if you can call it that.

October:
| 1 | Azelf | 64287 | 8.12 |

| Azelf | Move | Reflect | 12.8 |
| Azelf | Move | Light Screen | 11.4 |

September:
| 1 | Azelf | 56963 | 7.39 |

| Azelf | Move | Reflect | 8.8 |

Light Screen wasn't even used as much to be on Azelf's list of moves.

This explains why I said it was forgotten, but I guess you could say it isn't now that more people are using it. Also, that really isn't the focus of the thread.

 

[Orcelot005]

I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers are a lot higher when this month's stats are released. I don't know about anyone else, but the majority of Azelf leads I've seen recently have been the DS variant.

 

[Sei]

The tactic of Dual Screen wasn't exactly "forgotten." It has long been used ever since the dawn of DP Era, and even in the previous eras. What that statistic on the recent month show is that people were simply not finding the favor of using Dual Screen tactic, or were simply not informed enough of its usefulness. That is what a few of the above posters were trying to say.

Majority of people were simply following the style of team that were considered successful and had the most wins for certain period of the metagame, a few of them being the bulky offence and balanced teams with tricksters. But the difference with those were the lack of Dual Screen, simply b/c they had to sacrifice 1-2 slot(s) for the DS tactic to work, and some people didn't want to become too dependent on the sense of having the defensive capacity provided by only 8 turns of Dual Screen.

Anyway, I think this thread will be one of the good step going toward informing the masses the usefulness of Dual Screen. What I think you could do, if you're intending on making this thread into a sort of Dual Screen Guide, is to come up with list of useful Dual Screen users. That would greatly save people's time of going through the search. It would also show the people your efforts, which gives you more credibility. And then you could list out bunch of sweepers that would greatly take the advantage of Dual Screen. It can be for LC, NU, UU, OU, and Uber tiers.

 

[MetaGross66]

That originally was the purpose of this thread until GoldDraconian brought up something I found interesting which is the concept of bulky HO. I guess I could make it into a guide.