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Gen 3 Ban Baton Pass Teams
- Thread starter Lycomedes
- Start date
I agree with banning those from ADV, it may be old gen but it doesn't automatically mean it can't be improved.
Speed passing was banned in newer gens, and move Baton pass even completely removed. ADV may not have the same kind of op speed receivers, but in combo with other stat boosting moves they can ussualy be stopped only by phazing (in Mr. Mime case just by WW), or by use of Perish song (again Mime) or Haze, both of which don't have many reliable users.
I think BP should stay part of meta, and using it as a move to get tempo for mons like Jolt or Zap is fine, also passing a single boost like agility or SD doesn't mean auto loss since it can be still countered by bulkier or faster mon.
Problem arises when you have 6 BP mons than form a unbreakable chain which you need to phaze in right time (considering you have a phazer, which many offensive teams don't carry) so if you want to do well on ladder you are obligated to bring skarm, boom in the right time (you get only one chance for that, and you can boom in a sub, protect, a mon that can take the boom like scizor, or even in a +def boosted mon).
Lead Ninjask guarantess you'll be faster than anything, and if paired with Mag you even lose with a Skarm. So bassicaly you are playing a game where you need to hax one of the 5 do nothing mons before they bring in the receiver, and you need to play perfectly to even have the chance of doing so.
BP chains as they might seem lazy, do require some tactical knowledge, unlike Drum pass which is straight off coinflip. Lead suicide Zap on Tar into Drum pass Spore Smeargle hoping your opp doesn't have Skarm, and if it does, you end up with consolation prize +6 Cradilly which can often be enough to single handedly sweep entire team. With no team preview lead Zap doesn't really tell you what are you facing, since it's the second most common lead in the game, and RS from Tar into Zap is the most normal thing to do, but then ooops, faster Smeargle comes in, Subs/Spores/Drums/BP's.
If you pull of Agility/Sub with Zap lead or you include Mean Look in the mix you are even in a better position. Smeargle as a Spore, Spikes, Explosion set is ok, so banning Drum Pass on it like it's already been done with Ingrain is enough imo, since there are some niche mons like BellyZard who use it so banning the move itself would hurt them. I don't think Belly Drum is broken or op, since sacrificeing half your health to get to that +6 is a fair trade, however some other mon doing it and then passing like Smeargle who already puts out of commision one of your mons through Spore is too much.
Ladder should promote skill, and better players should win most of the time, but no matter how skilled you are, even if you play perfectly against those kind of teams and predict every move, you sometimes still need to pray to Lord Helix for a hax in your favour which is simply dumb. Not to say that we don't see many valid playstyles like mixed or phys offense on ladder exclusively cause people don't want to lose bunch of points to some low ladder bp hero, and that drives people away from laddering and further promotes lazy building.
Banning Ninjask, Mr. Mime and B. Drum on Smeargle wouldn't restrict creativity since there are like 3 teams of those, but exactly the opposite, it would open up metagame and ladder to building teams that aren't standard TSS variations in fear of losing to something like Drum Pass or BP chains.
Speed passing was banned in newer gens, and move Baton pass even completely removed. ADV may not have the same kind of op speed receivers, but in combo with other stat boosting moves they can ussualy be stopped only by phazing (in Mr. Mime case just by WW), or by use of Perish song (again Mime) or Haze, both of which don't have many reliable users.
I think BP should stay part of meta, and using it as a move to get tempo for mons like Jolt or Zap is fine, also passing a single boost like agility or SD doesn't mean auto loss since it can be still countered by bulkier or faster mon.
Problem arises when you have 6 BP mons than form a unbreakable chain which you need to phaze in right time (considering you have a phazer, which many offensive teams don't carry) so if you want to do well on ladder you are obligated to bring skarm, boom in the right time (you get only one chance for that, and you can boom in a sub, protect, a mon that can take the boom like scizor, or even in a +def boosted mon).
Lead Ninjask guarantess you'll be faster than anything, and if paired with Mag you even lose with a Skarm. So bassicaly you are playing a game where you need to hax one of the 5 do nothing mons before they bring in the receiver, and you need to play perfectly to even have the chance of doing so.
BP chains as they might seem lazy, do require some tactical knowledge, unlike Drum pass which is straight off coinflip. Lead suicide Zap on Tar into Drum pass Spore Smeargle hoping your opp doesn't have Skarm, and if it does, you end up with consolation prize +6 Cradilly which can often be enough to single handedly sweep entire team. With no team preview lead Zap doesn't really tell you what are you facing, since it's the second most common lead in the game, and RS from Tar into Zap is the most normal thing to do, but then ooops, faster Smeargle comes in, Subs/Spores/Drums/BP's.
If you pull of Agility/Sub with Zap lead or you include Mean Look in the mix you are even in a better position. Smeargle as a Spore, Spikes, Explosion set is ok, so banning Drum Pass on it like it's already been done with Ingrain is enough imo, since there are some niche mons like BellyZard who use it so banning the move itself would hurt them. I don't think Belly Drum is broken or op, since sacrificeing half your health to get to that +6 is a fair trade, however some other mon doing it and then passing like Smeargle who already puts out of commision one of your mons through Spore is too much.
Ladder should promote skill, and better players should win most of the time, but no matter how skilled you are, even if you play perfectly against those kind of teams and predict every move, you sometimes still need to pray to Lord Helix for a hax in your favour which is simply dumb. Not to say that we don't see many valid playstyles like mixed or phys offense on ladder exclusively cause people don't want to lose bunch of points to some low ladder bp hero, and that drives people away from laddering and further promotes lazy building.
Banning Ninjask, Mr. Mime and B. Drum on Smeargle wouldn't restrict creativity since there are like 3 teams of those, but exactly the opposite, it would open up metagame and ladder to building teams that aren't standard TSS variations in fear of losing to something like Drum Pass or BP chains.
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I'll preface this post by saying that I personally don't see Baton Pass as a broken strategy that requires fixing. I reassure you that this isn't some hastily made opinion either. I've been contemplating about full bp for quite some time. Around June this year, me and undisputed decided to look further into it, trialling bp chains across a wide array of teams.
I'd also like to note that i don't deem CBBpass to be worth mentioning here either as most often than not the user has to win the majority of reads. That team typically requires the Smeargle user to read the substitute/spore scenario correctly and even then can be forced to pass to suboptimal targets. For instance Cradily who requires Salac to get to +2 in order to outspeed the metagame, making it status weak. The remainder of my post will be concerned about full bp chains utilizing Mime and Umbreon. They are the variant that's scarier at the moment. Yes yes, I'm aware of the clamperl ones and the Hypno variants too. I also won't make any mention of ninjask as that's a bp team asking to lose. Ninjask makes the Skarmory counterplay a lot harder. Dedicating a slot to Magneton is often hugely detrimental to those lineups.
The Chain: Common Suspects
At the moment my judgement is that no action should be taken. BP seems to be taken care of by offenses with booms that can interrupt Umbreon's trap-pass. I disagree with the statement that bp promotes TSS. From my experience, it felt like facing TSS was just as a headache for the chain as it was for more offensive based Spike teams (Jolteon based ones) and the aforementioned boom offenses.
Even then, regarding the TSS matchup, the chain relies on a few things:
a) Not facing lead Tyranitar. Not having the speed boost early on makes the chain very susceptible, making stuff like Explosion Gengar a near victory for the TSS. Yes you can EV Zapdos to tank Rock slide comfortably (see mine), however past that point Zapdos has to pass to Vap/Mawile, opening it to the risk of Roar from turn 2.
b) Not facing a phazer Tyranitar. Very difficult for the chain to handle, most likely loses that as the pressure on Mime/Umbreon is huge. Roar Swampert is slightly more manageable in my opinion, but it can be something for the chain to be wary.
Despite that, the chain still has to outplay the skarm player to win. They have very strong matchups against forre TSS, and setup based offenses which dont use as many booms however. Other than that, things like Roar Jolteon Spike and Roar Suicune (offensive variants) based teams tend to massacre them.
I have an archive of around 60 replays which I'm happy to share with anyone interested. Just PM me on discord for the pastebin.
Mr Mime is arguably the cornerstone of the team since his Encore makes using roar a huge gamble for the opposing team once Mean Looked. Provided Umbreon cannot trap something, its generally very hard for the chain to win without having to outplay the majority of sequences in my opinion.
So on that note, the bp chain seems to nerf the two ends of the spectrum. Offenses who gamble on not taking the big risks (explosion) and rather comfortably attempt to counter team standards (setup based styles with disruptive sets to the standard pokes) and the do-nothing stalls which themselves are attempting to counter standards by in virtue of outlasting them (refresh milo + claydol and friends).
Having bp chains on that note buffs boom offenses (both physical and special) and more aggro based spike builds (jolteon/cune based ones).
I won't get into complex ban hypotheticals, which would be a whole other can of worms since overall to me, the status quo is healthy.
I'd also like to end this post by saying that I'm not a fan of so-called 'universal policies' when it comes to tiering. Yes, dpp has had its issues with full bp, in particular having much better chain users, longer taunts and the inability of most teams to fit proper phazing (outside good old nidoclef). As such, each gen should be treated as its own entity. Opinions of the type 'its been done in the newer gens so it should be done everywhere' are very ignorant to the mechanics of ADV as they make bp way less of a threat than what it was in gens IV and moving forward.
I'd also like to note that i don't deem CBBpass to be worth mentioning here either as most often than not the user has to win the majority of reads. That team typically requires the Smeargle user to read the substitute/spore scenario correctly and even then can be forced to pass to suboptimal targets. For instance Cradily who requires Salac to get to +2 in order to outspeed the metagame, making it status weak. The remainder of my post will be concerned about full bp chains utilizing Mime and Umbreon. They are the variant that's scarier at the moment. Yes yes, I'm aware of the clamperl ones and the Hypno variants too. I also won't make any mention of ninjask as that's a bp team asking to lose. Ninjask makes the Skarmory counterplay a lot harder. Dedicating a slot to Magneton is often hugely detrimental to those lineups.
The Chain: Common Suspects
At the moment my judgement is that no action should be taken. BP seems to be taken care of by offenses with booms that can interrupt Umbreon's trap-pass. I disagree with the statement that bp promotes TSS. From my experience, it felt like facing TSS was just as a headache for the chain as it was for more offensive based Spike teams (Jolteon based ones) and the aforementioned boom offenses.
Even then, regarding the TSS matchup, the chain relies on a few things:
a) Not facing lead Tyranitar. Not having the speed boost early on makes the chain very susceptible, making stuff like Explosion Gengar a near victory for the TSS. Yes you can EV Zapdos to tank Rock slide comfortably (see mine), however past that point Zapdos has to pass to Vap/Mawile, opening it to the risk of Roar from turn 2.
b) Not facing a phazer Tyranitar. Very difficult for the chain to handle, most likely loses that as the pressure on Mime/Umbreon is huge. Roar Swampert is slightly more manageable in my opinion, but it can be something for the chain to be wary.
Despite that, the chain still has to outplay the skarm player to win. They have very strong matchups against forre TSS, and setup based offenses which dont use as many booms however. Other than that, things like Roar Jolteon Spike and Roar Suicune (offensive variants) based teams tend to massacre them.
I have an archive of around 60 replays which I'm happy to share with anyone interested. Just PM me on discord for the pastebin.
Mr Mime is arguably the cornerstone of the team since his Encore makes using roar a huge gamble for the opposing team once Mean Looked. Provided Umbreon cannot trap something, its generally very hard for the chain to win without having to outplay the majority of sequences in my opinion.
So on that note, the bp chain seems to nerf the two ends of the spectrum. Offenses who gamble on not taking the big risks (explosion) and rather comfortably attempt to counter team standards (setup based styles with disruptive sets to the standard pokes) and the do-nothing stalls which themselves are attempting to counter standards by in virtue of outlasting them (refresh milo + claydol and friends).
Having bp chains on that note buffs boom offenses (both physical and special) and more aggro based spike builds (jolteon/cune based ones).
I won't get into complex ban hypotheticals, which would be a whole other can of worms since overall to me, the status quo is healthy.
I'd also like to end this post by saying that I'm not a fan of so-called 'universal policies' when it comes to tiering. Yes, dpp has had its issues with full bp, in particular having much better chain users, longer taunts and the inability of most teams to fit proper phazing (outside good old nidoclef). As such, each gen should be treated as its own entity. Opinions of the type 'its been done in the newer gens so it should be done everywhere' are very ignorant to the mechanics of ADV as they make bp way less of a threat than what it was in gens IV and moving forward.
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My issue with fullpass, (and yes I say fullpass, not baton pass as a whole) has never been that it is "broken" or whatever people like to call it. I believe the issue with it remaining in the metagame is what it requires you to do in regards to teambuilding. Certain threats like Ninjask and Umbreon require you to carry alongside a fazer to have any chance of breaking the chain to come. Many a time have I wanted to test out new, exciting offense teams on ladder, only to remember in the last few second before searching for a battle, that they are totally useless versus baton pass.
Ninjask: This mon can quite often be seen leading teams on low ladder I've I have ever seen a more stress-inducing, contemptible beast, I am having issues recalling it. This is the main reason I feel somewhat forced to bring a fazing move on ladder, near 100% of the time. With almost all sets running both substitute and protect, you are forced to either spam roar, or spam an accurate attack move. In the past, the players who ran these teams were forced to click "X" on the first sight of a skarmory. However, the novices that do wield these pests, have now realised that it makes an excellent bedfellow of magneton. When paired with the likes of Mr.Mime, these guys really can make you ask yourself why you decided to press the
button in the first place.
I rarely find myself sticking roar onto my offensively oriented teams. It seems farcical to stick a move that slows down the pace of the game onto a team that needs a high-paced game in order to succeed. This confines your counter-play to being a perpetual barrage of attacks against it's substitutes and protects until it is forced to switch out. Only when it does switch, it is so commonly paired with Mr.Mime or Umbreon, who are looking just for that barrage, so that their work can begin.
Umbreon: This threat here, for me, is the primary reason I believe fullpass as a strategy, deserves a further, more reforming look.
Tuberculosis (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Charm
- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
You can search far and wide for a player that enjoys opposing this mon in a game, I guarantee you, you will not find one. Taunt to prevent, your status, leech seed, roar/whirlwind, dragon dance, substitute, taunt of you own....you name it. Mean look to tie you down, and Baton Pass to start the chain. Your way around this guy, is having a surprise roar on a mon that isn't skarmory, or managing to 2-3 hit ko it somehow. Stab attacks usually aren't enough, and especially not after charm. What's even worse, is that Umbreon as a baton-passer, does not even have to be run on your usual fullpass team, it even works with semi/half pass
I understand that to most players, me included, that Baton Pass is not an intractable obstacle to circumvent in Advanced OU. This is mainly due to it being less formidable to the receivers available in the tier, as was aforesaid by Asta and Gacu. But there is no point in denying that the archetype as a whole, takes from the overall pleasure you get when playing the game. It makes no sense to me that an archetype which sees almost 0% usage at tournament level should be a sound reason to limit the teambuilding horizons of ladder players like myself. I am not even going to get into the whole sadism behind players who enjoy getting a BP chain off on their opponent, and watching their opponents blood pressure rise.
To conclude, I don't think that Baton Pass in the advanced meta, is by any means, game-breaking, and I don't think it's effectiveness was ever the question. I just feel that it carries a depreciation value on the overall quality, versatility and enjoyment the metagame. I feel as if the players who utilise this archetype have a very soul-less vibe to them. It is too often now that I've had to refrain from using a team I am genuinely intrigued to see fare in ADV, because of the intrinsic fear of BP a long-time enthusiast of the gen like myself possesses. In, the past, I've had to test my offensive/roar-less teams with friends, in private matches, and I'd like to be able to do that on ladder more comfortably.
Ninjask: This mon can quite often be seen leading teams on low ladder I've I have ever seen a more stress-inducing, contemptible beast, I am having issues recalling it. This is the main reason I feel somewhat forced to bring a fazing move on ladder, near 100% of the time. With almost all sets running both substitute and protect, you are forced to either spam roar, or spam an accurate attack move. In the past, the players who ran these teams were forced to click "X" on the first sight of a skarmory. However, the novices that do wield these pests, have now realised that it makes an excellent bedfellow of magneton. When paired with the likes of Mr.Mime, these guys really can make you ask yourself why you decided to press the
button in the first place.I rarely find myself sticking roar onto my offensively oriented teams. It seems farcical to stick a move that slows down the pace of the game onto a team that needs a high-paced game in order to succeed. This confines your counter-play to being a perpetual barrage of attacks against it's substitutes and protects until it is forced to switch out. Only when it does switch, it is so commonly paired with Mr.Mime or Umbreon, who are looking just for that barrage, so that their work can begin.
Umbreon: This threat here, for me, is the primary reason I believe fullpass as a strategy, deserves a further, more reforming look.
Tuberculosis (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Charm
- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
You can search far and wide for a player that enjoys opposing this mon in a game, I guarantee you, you will not find one. Taunt to prevent, your status, leech seed, roar/whirlwind, dragon dance, substitute, taunt of you own....you name it. Mean look to tie you down, and Baton Pass to start the chain. Your way around this guy, is having a surprise roar on a mon that isn't skarmory, or managing to 2-3 hit ko it somehow. Stab attacks usually aren't enough, and especially not after charm. What's even worse, is that Umbreon as a baton-passer, does not even have to be run on your usual fullpass team, it even works with semi/half pass
I understand that to most players, me included, that Baton Pass is not an intractable obstacle to circumvent in Advanced OU. This is mainly due to it being less formidable to the receivers available in the tier, as was aforesaid by Asta and Gacu. But there is no point in denying that the archetype as a whole, takes from the overall pleasure you get when playing the game. It makes no sense to me that an archetype which sees almost 0% usage at tournament level should be a sound reason to limit the teambuilding horizons of ladder players like myself. I am not even going to get into the whole sadism behind players who enjoy getting a BP chain off on their opponent, and watching their opponents blood pressure rise.
To conclude, I don't think that Baton Pass in the advanced meta, is by any means, game-breaking, and I don't think it's effectiveness was ever the question. I just feel that it carries a depreciation value on the overall quality, versatility and enjoyment the metagame. I feel as if the players who utilise this archetype have a very soul-less vibe to them. It is too often now that I've had to refrain from using a team I am genuinely intrigued to see fare in ADV, because of the intrinsic fear of BP a long-time enthusiast of the gen like myself possesses. In, the past, I've had to test my offensive/roar-less teams with friends, in private matches, and I'd like to be able to do that on ladder more comfortably.
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a) The hell does the ADV council have to do with the choices (or any choices) other old gen councils make?
b) How is exactly Ninjask a problem in ADV? Genuinely. The only borderline problematic chain uses Zapdos for speed passing.
This sounds like the type of post you'd make after ragequitting a ladder game.
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There is more than 1 old gens council because there is more than 1 old gen.
But why would you keep something so much uncompetitive broken or not Asta? Isn't this whole circuit of tours self called competitive?
What are you talking about ? Is that a meme ? Ninjask is not even a real staple in ADV Baton Pass anymore, it can only be used with Magneton, which is the old way to BP and is not really that great anymore ( Super weak to fast paced teams and rely on Skarmory being the only strategy your opponent use to beat your team ).
Zapdos + Chain BP teams are arguably the best at the moment, but it only punishes slow paced teams without a Roar Tyranitar, as it even loses to hard hitters / fast paced team, unless you run the tech Hypnosis on M.Mime, but then you lose some tools vs slowers teams and setups + you rely on a 60% accuracy move.
DrumPass is just pure cheese, and is not even a great one.
so ... I don't understand your point. Knowing that you are a good ADV player I think you are just trolling, otherwise feel free to elaborate on your statement, I'd be interested in reading any argues you can bring.
Zapdos + Chain BP teams are arguably the best at the moment, but it only punishes slow paced teams without a Roar Tyranitar, as it even loses to hard hitters / fast paced team, unless you run the tech Hypnosis on M.Mime, but then you lose some tools vs slowers teams and setups + you rely on a 60% accuracy move.
DrumPass is just pure cheese, and is not even a great one.
so ... I don't understand your point. Knowing that you are a good ADV player I think you are just trolling, otherwise feel free to elaborate on your statement, I'd be interested in reading any argues you can bring.
You are completely off on that, the issue is not even ninjask - my point applies for zapdos pass as well. Fast playing teams are not some auto win as you insinuate: my go to team for mucking around has 2 roar users and 1 ww... it is impossible to beat mr mime and octillery in combination, especially with unbreon and vap providing mean look / charm / taunt / faster phaze support. Golden Sun will share my sentiment that this is skilless aids that has propogated ladder recently.
I was only answering to the things you brought in the discussion. Ok, then, you're not talking about Baton Pass as a whole, you're telling us that a specific combinaison of M.Mime + Umbreon MeanPass with Vaporeon, speed pass and Octillery as a cleaner is stupidly strong on the ladder at the moment, right ?
Ok so, Meanpass has always been super strong versus fat teams, because phaze moves fail to beat it due to being repeatedly Taunt'd and / or Abilities denying Phazing in combinaison with MeanLook, preventing you from switching yourself. So, you can have 6 Pokémon with Roar it changes nothing.
However, the best way not to lose at meanpass is super well known, using stuff like Metagross, Explosion Gengar, well, fast paced teams / exploders. Those are the team with the best shot at dealing with them, I even think that the matchup heavily favors the player that do not use Baton Pass.
In slower teams, you don't have such tools to beat MeanPass, I guess your best way is to continiously bluff boom with your Gengar, if you don't have an Explosion gengar, or if you're using LaxCune archtype, then .... I think you just straight lose, unless you have some edgy Boom Claydol or things like it.
What I'd like to say is that ladder always been the place where such strategies took place, I don't think it's enjoyable to play vs a stupid Meanpass user, but it's a relevant strategy, which is nowhere broken, it's just super good vs common team archtypes, and somehow risky to use. If you want to encourage actions vs that, maybe the smartest thing to do is to request a ban of the MeanLook + Baton Pass combinaison, as it's the only relatively " uncompetitive " thing you can found in ADV Baton Pass archtypes.
That's why it should be banned in this gen, like it is in all of the others
Competitiveness isn't about fun, it's about things being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy for the metagame. Fun is not an objective criteria so it should not be taken into account. I'd add that matchs in a tournament setting doesn't see that much Baton pass usage, well by " not that much " I want to say, " almost no usage ". Therefore, it's really shaky to ban Baton Pass straightfully like that.
In other generations Baton Pass won majors tour BEFORE they got banned, and the ban was still controversial. It's absolutely pointless to take hard measures against BP right now imo.
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Can we also ban Skarm and trappers? I find them not enjoyable to play against. Furthermore, I have recently not enjoyed Sand chipping my Sub/Tect/CM Entei, so can we also ban Tyranitar?
Sarcasm aside, no good point has been raised that I didn't joke about above. BP is not a legitimate threat in ADV and one's lack of enjoyment playing against it is not a valid reason. This thread should be locked.
Sarcasm aside, no good point has been raised that I didn't joke about above. BP is not a legitimate threat in ADV and one's lack of enjoyment playing against it is not a valid reason. This thread should be locked.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Smurf saying that WW / Roar should beat BP chain from turn 1 ?
It's a non-broken playstyle, there's no tiering shit to do for now. If you think it's broken then I encourage you to do big perfs in major tournaments using BP, then I'm sure things will be done.
It's a non-broken playstyle, there's no tiering shit to do for now. If you think it's broken then I encourage you to do big perfs in major tournaments using BP, then I'm sure things will be done.
I dont think youve provided any rational argument for why its non-broken tbh. Allow me to summarise:
- run explosion teams
- bluff boom gar
- doesnt see much tournament play
- hypnosis on mr mime can miss
If you cant see why these arguments are flawed im not sure what to tell you
I gonna correct that super quickly.
1) " Run Hard hitters or Boomers ", any fast paced team carry one or both of this
2) Bluffing boom Gengar can help you even if a really bad MU, taunt Gengar is also super handy, so if you have either one or both you're super fine ( 99% of Gengar. )
3) If something is broken it will be used in tours, there's no reason not to do so.
4) If a team has to rely on a 60% move that have to be well timed it's a bad team.
1. Requiring heavy offense teams that dont even work the majority of the time is by drfinition unbalanced
2. Doesnt make sense. Next.
3. People who have some sense of dignity have an unwritten “gentlemans agreement” as it were not to use cheese.
4. If a broken strategy only gives you a maximum 40% out (note mr mime doesnt need to rely on a make or break hypno in most cases) then that is uncompetitive
2. Doesnt make sense. Next.
3. People who have some sense of dignity have an unwritten “gentlemans agreement” as it were not to use cheese.
4. If a broken strategy only gives you a maximum 40% out (note mr mime doesnt need to rely on a make or break hypno in most cases) then that is uncompetitive
These are some thoughts that came up from a discussion with CZ.
What does the community value? Let's suppose the following is desirable
1. A metagame where your skill level (measured by some rating) accurately describes the probability of winning a battle to a reasonable margin of uncertainty.
2. A metagame that is competitive in the sense that there are a sufficient variety of lineups, movesets, sequences of plays that are viable.
3. Staying true to mon choices available in the cartridge as a matter of principle of a sim.
The first two axioms are what I think represent the tendency that players want to feel that the effort they have put into building a good team and making good plays have paid off. The third is where I feel some players would like inaction (not banning) as a starting point, innocent until proven guilty, where the burden of proof lies with the people who want BP chains / cbbpass banned.
1) requires battles to have a sufficiently large number of opportunities for critical decision making and making up for RNG such that over the course of the game, the decision quality averages out. At the same time, not too large such that you will always lose to someone who is marginally better.
BP chains / CBB pass are at one end of the spectrum with some common matchups, where if you make a single mistake anticipating sub/acid on vaporeon, or sub/spore on smeargle, or if the chain runs gengar, you lose. A less extreme example down the spectrum would be mag offense facing a skarm dug double. I think we should have conversations about what distinguishes BP chains / cbbpass from these risky plays. One way is through the second axiom.
2) I think trappers and skarm add a variety of team archetypes, sets and plays that BP chains / cbb pass take away from your teambuilding if you want to make your team more resilient, as Dizno pointed out, and I would certainly like to be proven wrong on this.
Yet at the same time I think 3) sets a high bar for the ban.
What does the community value? Let's suppose the following is desirable
1. A metagame where your skill level (measured by some rating) accurately describes the probability of winning a battle to a reasonable margin of uncertainty.
2. A metagame that is competitive in the sense that there are a sufficient variety of lineups, movesets, sequences of plays that are viable.
3. Staying true to mon choices available in the cartridge as a matter of principle of a sim.
The first two axioms are what I think represent the tendency that players want to feel that the effort they have put into building a good team and making good plays have paid off. The third is where I feel some players would like inaction (not banning) as a starting point, innocent until proven guilty, where the burden of proof lies with the people who want BP chains / cbbpass banned.
1) requires battles to have a sufficiently large number of opportunities for critical decision making and making up for RNG such that over the course of the game, the decision quality averages out. At the same time, not too large such that you will always lose to someone who is marginally better.
BP chains / CBB pass are at one end of the spectrum with some common matchups, where if you make a single mistake anticipating sub/acid on vaporeon, or sub/spore on smeargle, or if the chain runs gengar, you lose. A less extreme example down the spectrum would be mag offense facing a skarm dug double. I think we should have conversations about what distinguishes BP chains / cbbpass from these risky plays. One way is through the second axiom.
2) I think trappers and skarm add a variety of team archetypes, sets and plays that BP chains / cbb pass take away from your teambuilding if you want to make your team more resilient, as Dizno pointed out, and I would certainly like to be proven wrong on this.
Yet at the same time I think 3) sets a high bar for the ban.
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I think 1 and 2 definitely take precedence in the heirarchy of considerations, I am a firm believer that remaining true to the cartridge should be a principle ahered to only with respect to mechanics - NOT uncompetitive strategies that detract from points 1 and 2. This is essentially the essence of the entire tiering and suspect process, otherwise why arent we playing unconstrained tiers?
Examples:
Sleep clause
Baton pass in dpp
Dugtrio trap
Evasion clause
Weather + speed bost
Maintaining full baton pass in ADV detracts from the former in favour of the latter, which is an indefensible position for a so called ‘competitive community’. Not a single person could present a legitimate team being adversely affected by the complex ban i suggested. Hmmm...
Examples:
Sleep clause
Baton pass in dpp
Dugtrio trap
Evasion clause
Weather + speed bost
Maintaining full baton pass in ADV detracts from the former in favour of the latter, which is an indefensible position for a so called ‘competitive community’. Not a single person could present a legitimate team being adversely affected by the complex ban i suggested. Hmmm...
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