Balanced Hackmons Central

[QT]

Cause Im a goose I forgot how to quote, but that's ok.

You said how Shed and Chansey beat Dialga. Well, if you didn't see my set has Roar. Roar phazes out Shed into a mon that can get killed by Doom Desire.

+3 252+ SpA Dialga Doom Desire vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Chansey literally dies I don't know why you mentioned this at all especially with sub. They have to run Whirlwind which I'm not gonna say is uncommon cause that'd be a lie. It's on about a quarter of Chansey in the tier. So 3/4 times Dialga beats Chansey.

Garchomp isn't exactly the biggest threat in the meta, 6% usage means I'm on average going to see this mon on 3/50 teams on the ladder. Not to mention that 4% of these Garchomps are actually running Dual Chop, and assuming you are talking about the Adaptability set which has the power to break the sub, that's only seen 3% of the time. I don't think Garchomp is going to be a problem for Dialga in the current meta.

Magic Bounce/Unaware needs to be played very VERY carefully in order to beat Dialga, assuming you have both on one team. If you just have Unaware, Dialga Roars out and gets a kill, if you only have Magic Bounce, Dialga sits behind a sub and kills with a +3 Doom Desire. If you do have both, its a 50/50 chance that you play the Dialga correctly.

"it doesn't even hit particularly hard..." What? This mon is one of the hardest hitters in the metagame. +3 252+ SpA Dialga Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 8+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 148-174 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Ass Vest Regi can only click U-Turn to go to something that may or may not be able to break the sub. A lot of the things I'd agree with you if it was only on paper, except in actual practice Dialga performs stellar.


Both Regi and Slaking struggle with Imposter, that's what team support is for. Regi needs an Aegi or a Shed with Recycle and Imposter isn't too much of a problem anymore. The -ate is actually a huge deal, especially when the opponent is relying on Ray being able to revenge kill, or Diancie for that matter. And be careful when you click Shift Gear so you don't need to sack something to Imposter.


You didn't acknowledge the Spider Web set which would be the main selling point of it being better than Metagross. It traps the -ates and can kill or stall them out. Patience is key when playing this set, and if anything its on the same level of Metagross.


And why should Kyurem-B drop exactly? It's main set is SD right now which is honestly an incredible set. SD / Espeed / Steel Killer / Filler. This set is crazy good at taking down so called counters. I don't use it personally but playing against it is difficult, despite having -ate counters. I don't see a reason for it to drop.

First off, usage doesn't have anything to do with the rankings. We don't care how good a mon is at beating bad players, we care how good it actually is.

It's weak compared to the strong mons- latios, PDon, MRay, MBlaze, MMY
+3 252+ SpA Dialga Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 696-820 (204.1 - 240.4%) -- guaranteed OHK

252 SpA Sniper Mega Mewtwo Y Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew on a critical hit: 699-823 (204.9 - 241.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO nuetral Mew
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 625-736 (183.2 - 215.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO unboosted
+3 252+ SpA Soul Dew Mega Latios Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 783-922 (229.6 - 270.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO stronger
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mega Mewtwo Y Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 840-990 (246.3 - 290.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO stronger
252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Blaziken V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Harsh Sunshine: 849-999 (248.9 - 292.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO stronger unboosted
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Harsh Sunshine: 1236-1455 (362.4 - 426.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO much stronger after a shift gear

Dialga also takes 3 turns to do damage, so anything it fails to OHKO it can't KO at all. It has a low DPT, is vulnerable to actual attacks, and just loses to useful moves like whirlwind, heart swap, encore, taunt, and attacks.


I didn't acknowledge spider web because spider web is useless, on account of it losing to the ates it's trying to trap (maybe it beats some diancie? I mean I guess)

So KYub should drop because it's outclassed. MRay can do any set it has better, and the fact that it doesn't should say a lot about how "useful" KYub-Bs niche is. Literally the only reason to run KYub is to not die to other refridge/have a slightly better matchup vs Ray, which is self defeating.

 

[motherlove]

Literally the only reason to run KYub is to not die to other refridge/have a slightly better matchup vs Ray, which is self defeating.

Nah KyuB is IMO better as a physical attacker because it beats Giratina with ease and beats Diancie after a Shift Gear, ice is actually really good currently because ppl started running Groudon, Garchomp and stuff like that. It's also neutral against stuff like Ttar.
The major problem with Kyurem is that it's predictable, which Ray isn't.

Anyway the best trait about Regigigas / Slaking which you failed to acknowledge is that its stab hits twice as hard as Chansey's Stab, its typing is also neutral to every -ate so it can dump all EVs into attack. If you say it struggles against Chansey it's because you're running a subpar set, Facade / Shift Gear / Dank Void / Coverage (Koof / Blades) is better since it lets you beat Unawares, a lot of physically defensive walls that can force you out and fast stuff that you can't kill like diancie or Chansey.
Anyway from all the time I used Slaking the lack of special bulk has never been an issue and if anything I was Glad for the extra Physical Bulk since you handle chansey better as well as any RKer (Slaking actually has significantly more phisical bulk than regi).
But then again the Meta is a bitch to Regigigas, PH tina is everywhere and pretty much walls it and can get rid of its ability or just shuffle it out, Registeel can Encore it and topsy turvy it and Ttar can set up alongside it and beat it.

I have no idea what any of you are talking about with groudon, it's really not very good, the PH set is completely outclassed by Garchomp, the Fur Coat set is shit and the Soundproof set isn't even very Good at walling -ates, it also loses to Kyurem. I don't know why everybody stopped using Slowbro but it's just better in every way, more bulk, resist ice, resist magma storm, slower pivot, can switch on Pdon and is generally annoying with scald.

Mega Aero is crazy good idk why its that low.

I legit don't see why you'd ever use Steelix except for some Volt Switch imposter trapping shenanigans which isn't that good or unpredictable to begin with. I don't know what the Spider web set you're talking about is but I don't see why you'd want to trap -ates when you can just kill them.

Also quantum you're underestimating how annoying Dialga is to deal with on Bulkier teams, just the fact that is can Roar on any mon is a Pain in the ass and it's the ONLY mon that can do that well.

 

[HailFall]

pikachu shouldnt be ranked at all and it CERTAINLY shouldnt rise. its basically a meme thats reliant on a coinflip to determine whether it actually accomplishes anything at all in a matchup. Its easily picked off by priority and its entire niche is matchup and luck reliant cheesing of the opponent.

 

[QT]

pikachu shouldnt be ranked at all and it CERTAINLY shouldnt rise. its basically a meme thats reliant on a coinflip to determine whether it actually accomplishes anything at all in a matchup. Its easily picked off by priority and its entire niche is matchup and luck reliant cheesing of the opponent.

I'm not sure you've played with pikachu, which isn't unreasonable, but that isn't true at all. The only time you rely on times is if you are badly losing or when you have a bad team. When use dproperly, which is what we are ranking it off, pikachu comes with nuzzle, glare, or occasionally tailwind support, making ties unnecessary. It's only picked off by priority if you play badly, especially since you can, you know, imposter the priority- generally, imping -ate is the goal of pikachu sets.
It also has a major niche over Chansey in t hat it isn't beaten by common Improofing, especially when paired with mold breaker for shed. Glare+pikachu usually 6-0s offense, a strings like Mega Rayquaza literally cannot be switched in on.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I advocate for dialga moving up to a. Against more offensive teams the 3-turn delay can just be too long of a wait, even if you are able to shuffle enemy team members around. Most of the HO mons can easily take out dialga with precipice blades or -ate boomburst (Specs Ray kills it even on a resist, and it's neutral to both pixilate and refrigerate). For defensive teams, it's true that Doom desire can really cut a chunk out of a lot of defensive mons, and roar stops you from switching in the right counter, but a well-made defensive team can usually pp-stall doom desire's 8 PP.
And usually then it only carries spacial rend/draco meteor for coverage which only also has 8 pp. A lot of defensive teams don't have a roar user so the mons are often hit with +3 or +6 doom desires which ohko or 2hko everything.

 

[Rumors]

It also has a major niche over Chansey in t hat it isn't beaten by common Improofing

"sigh" How many times do I need to say this every so often. Imposter Proof sets are ones where Imposters are helpless or can only do negligible things to the copied Pokemon, such as Judgement / Secret Sword Mega-Gengar, Bolt Strike / Precipice / Leech Seed Landorous, or anything that uses Imprison before the Imposter can switch in. These are sets where any Pokemon with Imposter loses 100% of the time outside of very specific instances, such as packing a Spooky Plate for Gengar. Imposter-resistant sets are ones where the Imposter can hurt the copied Pokemon, sometimes significantly, but, in an even match-up, the copied Pokemon wins the vast majority of the time so long as hax are not involved. Pretty much any Poison Heal set falls under this, as does things like -ate using Frustration.

Pikachu cannot beat Imposter-proof sets if it copies the set, period. Especially since for Imposter to win the match up it just needs to happen to be carrying the right item, which Light Ball isn't. And even then, some sets, like the Landy and Imprison ones, item doesn't even matter. Pikachu can, however, beat some Imposter-resistant sets that rely on the Imposter not having full access to the set against the copied Pokemon by virtue of out muscling its opponent, but only so long as Pikachu is still holding the Light Ball. Once it loses it, it's strictly worse than all other viable Imposters in BH.

These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

I think this line on the D-rank explanation explains why Pikachu should not move up. It needs status support from other teammates to avoid coin flips, it needs its team to stop the opponent from using Heal Bell if the move is present, it can only use the Light Ball which it must not lose, it must not get statused, it needs switch-in support since a powerful attacker will take it out on switch, AND it must copy a non-Imposter proof set that's also not resistant enough to beat Pikachu anyway with reasonable enough offensive power to sweep the opposing team. Yes, you can make it work by building a team around it, but that's a heck of a lot of necessary conditions for Pikachu to reliably do its job successfully.

 

[QT]

I advocate for dialga moving up to a. Against more offensive teams the 3-turn delay can just be too long of a wait, even if you are able to shuffle enemy team members around. Most of the HO mons can easily take out dialga with precipice blades or -ate boomburst (Specs Ray kills it even on a resist, and it's neutral to both pixilate and refrigerate). For defensive teams, it's true that Doom desire can really cut a chunk out of a lot of defensive mons, and roar stops you from switching in the right counter, but a well-made defensive team can usually pp-stall doom desire's 8 PP.
And usually then it only carries spacial rend/draco meteor for coverage which only also has 8 pp. A lot of defensive teams don't have a roar user so the mons are often hit with +3 or +6 doom desires which ohko or 2hko everything.

I'm... not sure what your getting at? I can't tell if this is a reading comp fail or what, but you seem to disagree with yourself a lot.

"sigh" How many times do I need to say this every so often. Imposter Proof sets are ones where Imposters are helpless or can only do negligible things to the copied Pokemon, such as Judgement / Secret Sword Mega-Gengar, Bolt Strike / Precipice / Leech Seed Landorous, or anything that uses Imprison before the Imposter cannot switch in. These are sets where any Pokemon with Imposter loses 100% of the time outside of very specific instances, such as packing a Spooky Plate for Gengar. Imposter-resistant sets are ones where the Imposter can hurt the copied Pokemon, sometimes significantly, but, in an even match-up, the copied Pokemon wins the vast majority of the time so long as hax are not involved. Pretty much any Poison Heal set falls under this, as does things like -ate using Frustration.

Pikachu cannot beat Imposter-proof sets if it copies the set, period. Especially since for Imposter to win the match up it just needs to happen to be carrying the right item, which Light Ball isn't. And even then, some sets, like the Landy and Imprison ones, item doesn't even matter. Pikachu can, however, beat some Imposter-resistant sets that rely on the Imposter not having full access to the set against the copied Pokemon by virtue of out muscling its opponent, but only so long as Pikachu is still holding the Light Ball. Once it loses it, it's strictly worse than all other viable Imposters in BH.





I think this line on the D-rank explanation explains why Pikachu should not move up. It needs status support from other teammates to avoid coin flips, it needs its team to stop the opponent from using Heal Bell if the move is present, it can only use the Light Ball which it must not lose, it must not get statused, it needs switch-in support since a powerful attacker will take it out on switch, AND it must copy a set non-Imposter proof set that's also not resistant enough to bear Pikachu anyway with reasonable enough offensive power to sweep the opposing team. Yes, you can make it work by building a team around it, but that's a heck of a lot of necessary conditions for Pikachu to reliably successfully do its job.

I'm... sorry? Not only do we not have an official imposterproof definition, you just listed an example of what I'm talking about. Even if we go by your definition, Leech See Landot loses to Pikachu, as do several others like Mold Breaker MGar:
+2 0- Atk Light Ball Pikachu Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
And Unaware MChomp:
8 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 274-324 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I suppose you could define the term still further as "any set that doesn't los ego imposter, but then you've made trapping+no attacks PP stalking pretty much the only solution, which takes away all usability of the term. Maybe it would have been more clear if I said common imposterproofing cores?

What, exactly, is the point of this? There are three imposters in BH. Chansey is strictly worse without an item then Blissey- does this mean that it's not worth running? Of course not.



This is exactly the kind of terrible argument you are complaining about. The rank descriptions were meaningless before they were written, and all they are good for is getting a starting idea. We care about how well it performs, not how it compare so to mostly-arbitrary sentences. If we had a Pokémon that swept the entire metagame, but needed a reliable answer to imposter to function at all, we wouldn't keep it in B ranks for that (in fact, we already don't). Heck, by that logic Mega Blaziken and Shedinjs should be in the D-ranks because they need sun and hazard removal. You are also greatly overestimating the support required- with the exception of heal bell you literally described MLatios- MGar removal, check. Item stay on? Check. Team support to allow it to not get walled by a few common mons (FC Maudino, MMetagross, aegislash/Registeel depending on set, potentially Chansey), Check.
Obviously Pikachu isn't as good as Latios by any means, but your arguments against upranking are really reaching.

 

[Rumors]

Quantum Tesseract It kinda does have an official. Maybe not "Verbatim/Flint camer out and said its official" official, but proof and resistant have been used to differentiate since Gen V.

On the Gengar set, you're making the assumption that either Pikachu boosted for free vs Gengar or the Gengar user was silly enough to Shell Smash while carrying Pursuit vs a team with Pikachu. More likely calcs.

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pikachu: 500-590 (182.4 - 215.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Pikachu Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 44-54 (16.8 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

And even if Gengar boosts and Pikachu swaps in safely, Gengar wins slightly more than 50% of the time, making Pikachu a luck-based check without status support.

On the Lando set, Lando-T has 319 HP vs Piakchu's 279, so Leech Seed does slightly more damage to Lando. Lando carries Lefties or, for some reason, Recover and it outstalls Pikachu.

Not sure why you're bringing up Mchomp since I did not. I'm not sure Mchomp is Imposterproofable outside of dumb stuff like Air Balloon with Ground + Electric coverage.

And, no, trapping and stalling are not required to imposter proof. It just has to not be vulnerable to Imposters. Trapping helps beating the Imposter, sure, but a good Imposter set won't care in the long run anyway. Imposter-proof sets do not have to have the goal of killing Imposter, just the goal of doing their job without Imposter able to do anything significant to stop them.

Also, there's more than three Imposters. You also have MLatias, whose Soul Dew gives it free calm mind basically over its opponent and it has enough power to kill Illusions on its own. There's also Marowak, though outside of bulk, it's probably outclassed by Pikachu as long as both have their items. There's also super-niche in stuff like Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Clamperl, but they're probably all outclassed. There's also Megas with their gimmick of copying the move set on mega-evolving, notably Mega-Kanga getting an opponents set with Parental Bond, though that's fairly gimmicky.


And how is my argument terrible? Pikachu requires a ridiculous amount of team support, specific circumstances in battle, and to be against the right enemy team. For example, if BH's meta became stall-heavy for a while, Pikachu would become absolute trash. Additionally, everything in C-rank can perform at least two different roles and run several different sets. Pikachu? Its Imposter or trash. Period. And if the circumstances aren't right, it's still trash whereas all the C-rank could still be theoretically useful in most situations that are poor for them.

So, you tell me. Why should a Pokemon that literally only does one thing and pretty much needs a chunk of its team to be built around it and require the enemy to have a favorable team composition be put into the same rank as Pokemon that can do at least a small variety of roles, can operate somewhat independently, and are not reliant on the opponents team to do their job?

 

[QT]

Quantum Tesseract It kinda does have an official. Maybe not "Verbatim/Flint camer out and said its official" official, but proof and resistant have been used to differentiate since Gen V.

On the Gengar set, you're making the assumption that either Pikachu boosted for free vs Gengar or the Gengar user was silly enough to Shell Smash while carrying Pursuit vs a team with Pikachu. More likely calcs.

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pikachu: 500-590 (182.4 - 215.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Pikachu Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 44-54 (16.8 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

And even if Gengar boosts and Pikachu swaps in safely, Gengar wins slightly more than 50% of the time, making Pikachu a luck-based check without status support.

On the Lando set, Lando-T has 319 HP vs Piakchu's 279, so Leech Seed does slightly more damage to Lando. Lando carries Lefties or, for some reason, Recover and it outstalls Pikachu.

Not sure why you're bringing up Mchomp since I did not. I'm not sure Mchomp is Imposterproofable outside of dumb stuff like Air Balloon with Ground + Electric coverage.

And, no, trapping and stalling are not required to imposter proof. It just has to not be vulnerable to Imposters. Trapping helps beating the Imposter, sure, but a good Imposter set won't care in the long run anyway. Imposter-proof sets do not have to have the goal of killing Imposter, just the goal of doing their job without Imposter able to do anything significant to stop them.

Also, there's more than three Imposters. You also have MLatias, whose Soul Dew gives it free calm mind basically over its opponent and it has enough power to kill Illusions on its own. There's also Marowak, though outside of bulk, it's probably outclassed by Pikachu as long as both have their items. There's also super-niche in stuff like Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Clamperl, but they're probably all outclassed. There's also Megas with their gimmick of copying the move set on mega-evolving, notably Mega-Kanga getting an opponents set with Parental Bond, though that's fairly gimmicky.


And how is my argument terrible? Pikachu requires a ridiculous amount of team support, specific circumstances in battle, and to be against the right enemy team. For example, if BH's meta became stall-heavy for a while, Pikachu would become absolute trash. Additionally, everything in C-rank can perform at least two different roles and run several different sets. Pikachu? Its Imposter or trash. Period. And if the circumstances aren't right, it's still trash whereas all the C-rank could still be theoretically useful in most situations that are poor for them.

So, you tell me. Why should a Pokemon that literally only does one thing and pretty much needs a chunk of its team to be built around it and require the enemy to have a favorable team composition be put into the same rank as Pokemon that can do at least a small variety of roles, can operate somewhat independently, and are not reliant on the opponents team to do their job?

Imposter Proof sets are ones where Imposters are helpless or can only do negligible things to the copied Pokemon, such as Judgement / Secret Sword Mega-Gengar, Bolt Strike / Precipice / Leech Seed Landorous, or anything that uses Imprison before the Imposter can switch in. These are sets where any Pokemon with Imposter loses 100% of the time outside of very specific instances, such as packing a Spooky Plate for Gengar. Imposter-resistant sets are ones where the Imposter can hurt the copied Pokemon, sometimes significantly, but, in an even match-up, the copied Pokemon wins the vast majority of the time so long as hax are not involved. Pretty much any Poison Heal set falls under this, as does things like -ate using Frustration.

Pikachu cannot beat Imposter-proof sets if it copies the set, period. Especially since for Imposter to win the match up it just needs to happen to be carrying the right item, which Light Ball isn't.

The fact that it's a 50-50 is meaningless- Mega Gengar is a clear example of an imposterproof mon that is beaten by having the proper item, which in this case light ball is. For pikachu, MGar is not imposterproof here due to failing on all three counts (not helpless/negledgible damage, using shell smash is not a rare occurrence, pikachu can win). In this case, light ball is the (or at least a) correct item.

Unaware MChomp is a decently viable example of what you suggested- it doesn't care about imposter unless it has<40% HP, by which point it's more the imposters team winning than the imposter (ntm that even then it has a 50-50. With Shift Gear, Thousand Waves, Bolt Strike, and Recover, it sets up while destroying imposter. It's at least as good of an improofer as your example. Recover landot doesn't fix your issue, as imposter can now heal, switch, and reset. I suppose you could make a decent case for leftovers Landot, but that's a) worse than goggle smost of the time and b) still badly demolished by imposter (2 pikachu or pikachu+anything bulky utterly destroys it).

All of the imposter Megas are literal garbage on the level of clamperl, is there's no need to bring them up. Lati was the third one I referred to (although ig there are two of them but w/e), and it's not meaningful in this situation as the same is true of it- after knock off, all commonly used imposters are suboptimal compared with Blissey, but that doesn't make them bad, so using that as an argument isn't helpful for your case.

If you want to know why I consider your argument terrible, look there. What would happen if BH became stall centric is completely and totally irrelevant. We don't care about how the metagame could be, we care about how it is. To give a similar example, if every mon were to run soundproof Boomburst would be absolute trash. Do you see how useless that statement is?

Not every Pokémon in the C ranks performs 2+ roles. Deoxys-A has one, Kyuw has one, Blaziken has one, Gengar has one, KYub has one, she'd has one, TtAr has 1 1/2, PDon has one...


It shouldn't. However, that's not what the C rank is. Deo-A requires Hazard support, needs fakespeed answers, and often fails to secure a KO against teams with priority. M-Scizor requires half a dozen mons removes and a really solid answer to PDon. It seems like you are trying to argue as to why Pikachu shouldn't be in the A ranks, but that's not even in question at all.

 

[tysequaine]

Since whether or not Pikachu beats Mega Gengar seems a large part of this argument, here is some data, with references. You're welcome. The following calcs and battle are all assuming a 0 EV / 0 IV spread with a Timid nature (unless stated otherwise), the nature and EVs of which are used ~49% of the time in the 1760 usage stats[1] and ~36% of the time in the 1500 usage stats[2], and the IVs of which are used by people that pay any actual attention to how they build their team. First of all, some calcs.

The following calc has the attacking M-Gar's base Attack adjusted to accommodate for Light Ball's doubling of raw Attack[3].
+2 0- Atk Mega Gengar Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 214-254 (81.9 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The following calc is using a Mild nature and 4 EVs in attack, which is the default in the teambuilder if you have a moveset of Shell Smash / Judgment / Secret Sword / Pursuit[4], and the attacking Mega Gengar's Attack is once again adjusted to be double that of the defending Mega Gengar's Attack, with the Attack EVs removed to create an exact double[5]. It should be noted that in the 1760 and 1500 usage stats, Mega Gengar runs Pursuit ~19%[6] of the time and ~11%[7] of the time respectively. It should also be noted that this calc is identical to what you'll receive by using a Hasty nature with the same spread, which is found in ~6% of Mega Gengars in the 1760 usage stats[1] and ~3% of Mega Gengars in the 1500 usage stats[2]. I also gave Mega Gengar 31 IVs in attack again.
+2 0 Atk Mega Gengar Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Gengar: 328-386 (125.6 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here is a battle, using a team full of Mega Gengars with the most popular spread[8] and 0 IVs in Attack, and a team full of Pikachus with Light Balls and the ability to transform into the Mega Gengars[9]:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-447215647

TL;DR: In conclusion, Quantum Tesseract is absolutely right: Mega Gengar is no longer reliably imposterproofed thanks to Light Ball Pikachu. As long as it's running Pursuit, and a Hasty/Mild spread or 31 Attack IVs, Pikachu will have a 50% chance of beating it. And if the Gengar in question is running a Timid nature without 31 Attack IVs, all you need is Stealth rock or a little bit of prior damage and Pikachu absolutely DESTROYS Mega Gengar 62.5% of the time. If you win the speed tie. For these reasons I believe that we should switch Pikachu and Mega Gengar's positions on the viability rankings to reflect how dangerous Pikachu is to Mega Gengar's viability, and the meta in general.

References
[1] https://gyazo.com/7b26e9b3bb1cff6b02a1b94dfb036eff
[2] https://gyazo.com/77569ad755094a975e4b7db911d1bb3e
[3] https://gyazo.com/d38281831dbebd6765b2bc46344c15c8
[4] https://gyazo.com/0ac4a307b3f3a6f063b2da6fae5f5267
[5] https://gyazo.com/41490790c380e49d7d62cb7b8aa0a593
[6] https://gyazo.com/01d5fcd9e12891bf5131fafe72a8b2be
[7] https://gyazo.com/3579ce22910f716398a79652efdbf8c1
[8] http://pastebin.com/gZQVRHSf
[9] http://pastebin.com/Y6wwG1n4

 

[motherlove]

Since whether or not Pikachu beats Mega Gengar seems a large part of this argument, here is some data, with references. You're welcome. The following calcs and battle are all assuming a 0 EV / 0 IV spread with a Timid nature (unless stated otherwise), the nature and EVs of which are used ~49% of the time in the 1760 usage stats[1] and ~36% of the time in the 1500 usage stats[2], and the IVs of which are used by people that pay any actual attention to how they build their team. First of all, some calcs.

The following calc has the attacking M-Gar's base Attack adjusted to accommodate for Light Ball's doubling of raw Attack[3].
+2 0- Atk Mega Gengar Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 214-254 (81.9 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The following calc is using a Mild nature and 4 EVs in attack, which is the default in the teambuilder if you have a moveset of Shell Smash / Judgment / Secret Sword / Pursuit[4], and the attacking Mega Gengar's Attack is once again adjusted to be double that of the defending Mega Gengar's Attack, with the Attack EVs removed to create an exact double[5]. It should be noted that in the 1760 and 1500 usage stats, Mega Gengar runs Pursuit ~19%[6] of the time and ~11%[7] of the time respectively. It should also be noted that this calc is identical to what you'll receive by using a Hasty nature with the same spread, which is found in ~6% of Mega Gengars in the 1760 usage stats[1] and ~3% of Mega Gengars in the 1500 usage stats[2]. I also gave Mega Gengar 31 IVs in attack again.
+2 0 Atk Mega Gengar Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Gengar: 328-386 (125.6 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here is a battle, using a team full of Mega Gengars with the most popular spread[8] and 0 IVs in Attack, and a team full of Pikachus with Light Balls and the ability to transform into the Mega Gengars[9]:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-447215647

TL;DR: In conclusion, Quantum Tesseract is absolutely right: Mega Gengar is no longer reliably imposterproofed thanks to Light Ball Pikachu. As long as it's running Pursuit, and a Hasty/Mild spread or 31 Attack IVs, Pikachu will have a 50% chance of beating it. And if the Gengar in question is running a Timid nature without 31 Attack IVs, all you need is Stealth rock or a little bit of prior damage and Pikachu absolutely DESTROYS Mega Gengar 62.5% of the time. If you win the speed tie. For these reasons I believe that we should switch Pikachu and Mega Gengar's positions on the viability rankings to reflect how dangerous Pikachu is to Mega Gengar's viability, and the meta in general.

References
[1] https://gyazo.com/7b26e9b3bb1cff6b02a1b94dfb036eff
[2] https://gyazo.com/77569ad755094a975e4b7db911d1bb3e
[3] https://gyazo.com/d38281831dbebd6765b2bc46344c15c8
[4] https://gyazo.com/0ac4a307b3f3a6f063b2da6fae5f5267
[5] https://gyazo.com/41490790c380e49d7d62cb7b8aa0a593
[6] https://gyazo.com/01d5fcd9e12891bf5131fafe72a8b2be
[7] https://gyazo.com/3579ce22910f716398a79652efdbf8c1
[8] http://pastebin.com/gZQVRHSf
[9] http://pastebin.com/Y6wwG1n4

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, I think you are but will assume you aren't for the sake of argument.

So to summarise, if Mega Gengar is running pursuit (20%) and if it's running Shell Smash (24%) and if Pikachu wins the Speed tie (50%) then Pikachu has a 0% chance to OHKO Mega Gengar.
But if Stealth Rocks are up and have been up before Mega Gengar switched in and assuming that the Mega Gengar user has clicked Shell Smash, then Pikachu has a STAGGERING 56.3% chance to OHKO Mega Gengar.

Which means that all things considered, from team preview, Pikachu is a relevant threat to Mega Gengar around 1.4% of the time (running pursuit, running shell smash, winning speed tie, ohkoing). (yes I know this isn't exact but w/e)

And the logical conclusion to that is:

Quantum Tesseract is absolutely right: Mega Gengar is no longer reliably imposterproofed thanks to Light Ball Pikachu.

What?


Anyway not to say that I disagree with a Pikachu raise, the rank description are pretty arbitrary and rarely even used, mons have always been ranked by how well they perform. Pikachu has a solid niche in BH which makes him an insanely threatening sweeper. Pikachu's viability in a battle is also directly increased by just running a second Pikachu just because of how stats work, brushing off Pikachu as a shitty gimmick is kinda like AG ppl who brush off Moody as a shitty gimmick even thought it has proven to be good in the past.

Btw why is Giratina-O even ranked and why is Zekrom higher than Amphy?

EDIT: Lmao I went on showdown and just realised Tysequain is actually Tys, 8/10 bait, fell for it. GG.

 

[Rumors]

Quantum Tesseract Well, as Tysequaine just showed, Mega-Gengar could have reliably defeated Pikachu six times in that little replay even after a Shell Smash. Painfully, but it would have won, which means even the least ideal yet viable set to pit against Pikachu still (very softly) counters Pikachu. And besides, if Gengar isn't running Pursuit? It's not like its only set is Moldy Pursuit.

Unaware Chomp is not Imposter proof though. It's Imposter resistant if its only able to win with 40% or more HP. Look, if it helps, Imposter-proof sets hard counter Imposters, period. Imposter-resistant sets soft counter or check Imposters. If the anti-Imposter set can't beat a full HP Imposter while at around ~10% HP, its not Imposter-proof. Besides...

252 Atk Mega Garchomp Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pikachu: 160-189 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Thousand Waves vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 213-251 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Pikachu is still in a 50/50 without status support.

As for Lando, it's not a real sight these days anymore, but the one I was thinking of was the old Earthquake / Bolt Strike / Leech Seed / Swords Dance sets. Imposters become set-up bait and it breaks bulky stuff after. EQ is because I'm referring to pre-1k Arrwaves/Precipice days, ability was whatever you wanted (mine ran Swift Swim). Item could be whatever, but Lefties work to tick off Pikachu. It has trouble with double Imposter switching back and forth, but it still safely keeps the Imposter locked down and lets the Lando player dictate when the battle changes. Either way, its probably not the most relevant since its only niche over Groudon and Garchomp right now is Imposter-proofing, but it's what immediately came to mind.

On other Imposters, not so much to help my arguement but point out there are other alternatives. Marowak would be superior to Pikachu if the meta became only physical attacking for some reason, for example. Ditto would be friggin' amazing if Gen VII for some reason allowed Quick Powder to work while its transformed.


And no, I don't see how useless the statement is, nor do I see how one statement in my overall arguement makes the whole thing irrelevant. But seriously, look at our tiers. If the meta had a drastic shift, most, if not all Pokemon, would move very little. Defensive types would perhaps shuffle up a little bit while offensive types would shuffle down a little, but pretty much everything on our list outside of D-rank would have roughly the same viability regardless of whatever the flavor of the month is. They're resistant to meta-shifts, which is why they're good. Pikachu? Only viable if the meta is offensive enough.


And oh, very well on the C-rank. Lemme break it down.

Cress - Pretty much any defensive or support set. Poison Heal, Prankster, Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat... you name it, Cress can do it and do it at least reasonably well. It's still one of the best defensive Unawares too.

Kyurem-W - Refrigerate and Contrary are its primary two sets, but its also the best niche Hail Blizzard sweeper.

Lugia - Probably the fastest defensive Pokemon in the meta. Its basically Cress with a different typing that's currently harmed by the existence of Refrigerate and made a little less useful by 1k Arrows.

Mega-Aerodactyl - Magic Guard, Aerilate, Mold Breaker, and Sand Stream I've seen it perform

Mega-Aggron - Anything Registeel can do, plus reasonable offensive presence if needed. It can actually hurt stuff with Gear Grind!

Mega-Sceptile - Mainly Sheer Force or Contrary, but it could run Moldy Spore very nicely.

Mega-Steelix - Another flavor of Registeel and Aggron, can do what they do basically. Except can hit reasonably hard with Ground-moves.

Mega-Venusaur - Main claim to fame is Prankster and dick trick with Black Sludge, but can run other defensive sets, like Bounce and Unaware, on the right team.

Palkia - Decent Contrary, biggest use is probably its nasty as heck Swift Swim set. But its unique typing and good bulk could let it also do stuff like AV Regen, bulky PH, or what have you.

Deo-A - ...wait, wasn't this only C-rank because of Protean? Why is it still here?

Deo-S - Fastest user of any support set, period. And I mean any support set.

Hoopa-U - Likes to run a nasty Hustle set, but can still be deadly with a lot of other possibilities, such as Trick Room abusing.

Mega-Scizor - Mostly defensive Pokemon of the Registeelish type, but you can run offensive sets on it. Just has kinda bad type coverage. Probably really great at pissing off Diancie and T-Tar though.

Reshiram - Contrary abuser, Chlorophyl abuser. Could also run some other offensive sets too and I've seen a decent PH Reshiram before.

Giratina-O - It runs Mega-Gengar stuff, except bulkier. Or bulky offensive sets. I kinda wonder why its never used more? Why don't I use it more?

Mega-Swampert - Aside from its own self-Drizzle > Swift Swim set, it plays rather similarly to Gyrados and can run a lot of sets similar to it. Poison Heal, Tough Claws, etc. Also only one rare weakness, so it does bulky offense pretty darn well.

Zekrom - AV Regen, especially when Kyogre is popular. Makes a decent Refrigerate, Poison Healer, and other various types of bulky sweepers.

And because you mentioned them despite not being C-rank...

Kyu-B - Officially has three: standard Fridge, anti-Imposter Fridge, and lure Skill Link. It can do other things as well, but physical ice is a little lacking. Either way, I should know here, I wrote the analysis on it.

Blaziken - Contrary, Tough Claws, Chlorophyl, Sheer Force are all successful sets I've seen.

Gengar - Are you kidding me when you say Gengar has only one set? Moldy is the big one but aside from the variety it can do with that, everything from anti-Shed to all out Imposter-proof offense to offensive support, it can also run Imposter-proof Bullet Proof sets and Normalize-Curse sets. Heck, Gengar is THE poster boy for Normalize Skill Swap set-up sets! And then there's also the Shadow Tag sets too! No offense, but if you think Gengar only does on thing, your view is narrow as heck.

Shedinja - Mostly Sturdy, yeah, but it can do a lot with it. Endeavor + Extreme Speed, Shell Smash + Baton Pass, general annoying support. If you want to know the laundry list of Shed's capabilites, just ask lcass.

Ttar - Poison Heal is the common one yes, but I've seen successful Unaware and bulky offensive ones too. Sheer Force Shift Gear Crunch/Diamond Storm is nothing to scoff at unless you're like... Fur Coat Chansey maybe.

Pdon - Its pretty limited since Red Orb, but it can choose between sort of semi-stally to bulky offense to all-out attacking even with its limitations.

All of that vs...

Pikachu: Imposter. Just Imposter. Nothing else. Ever. At least, that it can do successfully. Maybe if you give it like... Sheer Force and Baton Pass it a lot of boosts...


But yeah, no offense again, but saying any of the Pokemon C-and higher are limited to only one or two sets is extremely short sighted. Yes, a lot of them have only one or two common sets, or sets they perform the most effectively, but nothing's stopping them from running a variety of other sets or potentially fitting into other roles and sub-roles. Meanwhile Pikachu? It can only Imposter with a Light Ball. Hardly matters what moves it runs. It can't reliably use any other item or ability. Only Imposter Light Ball. Period.

 

[QT]

Quantum Tesseract Well, as Tysequaine just showed, Mega-Gengar could have reliably defeated Pikachu six times in that little replay even after a Shell Smash. Painfully, but it would have won, which means even the least ideal yet viable set to pit against Pikachu still (very softly) counters Pikachu. And besides, if Gengar isn't running Pursuit? It's not like its only set is Moldy Pursuit.

Unaware Chomp is not Imposter proof though. It's Imposter resistant if its only able to win with 40% or more HP. Look, if it helps, Imposter-proof sets hard counter Imposters, period. Imposter-resistant sets soft counter or check Imposters. If the anti-Imposter set can't beat a full HP Imposter while at around ~10% HP, its not Imposter-proof. Besides...

252 Atk Mega Garchomp Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pikachu: 160-189 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Thousand Waves vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 213-251 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Pikachu is still in a 50/50 without status support.

As for Lando, it's not a real sight these days anymore, but the one I was thinking of was the old Earthquake / Bolt Strike / Leech Seed / Swords Dance sets. Imposters become set-up bait and it breaks bulky stuff after. EQ is because I'm referring to pre-1k Arrwaves/Precipice days, ability was whatever you wanted (mine ran Swift Swim). Item could be whatever, but Lefties work to tick off Pikachu. It has trouble with double Imposter switching back and forth, but it still safely keeps the Imposter locked down and lets the Lando player dictate when the battle changes. Either way, its probably not the most relevant since its only niche over Groudon and Garchomp right now is Imposter-proofing, but it's what immediately came to mind.

If losing to an imposter at 10% means you fail to be imposterproof, then leech seed make sure it impossible to be immproof, pursuit Gar isn't improof to regular Chansey, etc. Your definitions and your examples directly contradict one another.

And no, I don't see how useless the statement is, nor do I see how one statement in my overall arguement makes the whole thing irrelevant. But seriously, look at our tiers. If the meta had a drastic shift, most, if not all Pokemon, would move very little. Defensive types would perhaps shuffle up a little bit while offensive types would shuffle down a little, but pretty much everything on our list outside of D-rank would have roughly the same viability regardless of whatever the flavor of the month is. They're resistant to meta-shifts, which is why they're good. Pikachu? Only viable if the meta is offensive enough.

Mega-Sceptile - Mainly Sheer Force or Contrary, but it could run Moldy Spore very nicely.

Hoopa-U - Niche of Imposter-proofiness with Hyperspace Fury, but can also be deadly with stuff like Trick Room or other offensive sets.

Gengar - Are you kidding me when you say Gengar has only one set? Moldy is the big one but aside from the variety it can do with that, everything from anti-Shed to all out Imposter-proof offense to offensive support, it can also run Imposter-proof Bullet Proof sets and Normalize-Curse sets. Heck, Gengar is THE poster boy for Normalize Skill Swap set-up sets! And then there's also the Shadow Tag sets too! No offense, but if you think Gengar only does on thing, your view is narrow as heck.

Shedinja - Mostly Sturdy, yeah, but it can do a lot with it. Endeavor + Extreme Speed, Shell Smash + Baton Pass, general annoying support. If you want to know the laundry list of Shed's capabilites, just ask lcass.

Pdon - Its pretty limited since Red Orb, but it can choose between sort of semi-stally to bulky offense to all-out attacking even with its limitations.

All of that vs...

Pikachu: Imposter. Just Imposter. Nothing else. Ever. At least, that it can do successfully. Maybe if you give it like... Sheer Force and Baton Pass it a lot of boosts...

But yeah, no offense again, but saying any of the Pokemon C-and higher are limited to only one or two sets is extremely short sighted. Yes, a lot of them have only one or two common sets, or sets they perform the most effectively, but nothing's stopping them from running a variety of other sets or potentially fitting into other roles and sub-roles. Meanwhile Pikachu? It can only Imposter with a Light Ball. Hardly matters what moves it runs. It can't reliably use any other item or ability. Only Imposter Light Ball. Period.

Sheer force MScept is literal garbage, but I can see a moldy spore w/o goggle being useful, and thus imp resistant even after Koff, so that works.

Hoops-U can't run that because fury isn't improof. It's basically a worse deo-a with a slightly better Tr set. Not the best example of multiple sets.

Gengar- why the fuck would you run any of those instead of just running mega Gengar? I can maybe see skill swap normalize+mega evo, but they a) win regardless if they play smart, and b) Gengar is super weak to RKing regardless. It's only usable set is the psong+encore+filler set; what else would you do, try and trap Maudino with sludge wave?

Shed still fails when used with any other ability, and has 2, maybe 3 on certain lures, viable items. Why does the extra item give it a pass of not 1 but 7 ranks? Shed is ranked for it's one main set of pivot+endeavor+whirlpool+recycle, or the slight variation with ice shard. Regardless of any other sets, it would still be at the same rank as it is now. One viable set is just as useful as multiple slightly less viable sets unless they have radically different checks and counters. Again, this isn't implying that pikachu is as good as shed (its not), but the fact that it only has one set isn't a major issue.

PDon's "options" consist of Draco Meteor, Sacred fire, and precipice blades, none of which are another actual set. It's ranked because its just so good, not because it has some kind of unpredictability about it.

Heck, if this is the low bar for alternate sets, then spooky plate Pikachu is a thing because it bluffs light ball really, really hard (and before you say noone would use this, no one would use blizzard Kyu-W either.

 

[morogrim]

Hi I'm a part of the GG (it may be confirmed or not idk) and I have some issues I'd like to address some problems I see with the viability rankings. Ill just go in order of what I think should be changed.

--> A: This one is probably the least likely to happen buy ya know what are you going to do... Tail Glow/Sub/Doom Desire/Roar with Soundproof. Counters? Well depends on how the user of Dialga plays it. If played correctly the only real counter is a Whirlwind mon that outspeeds Dialga so it doesn't get roared out, or a Prankster Regi/Aegi to play around with Encore and Topsy Turvy. Imposter has trouble beat it cause of Sub, and in most cases Dialga stalls out of pp. And when compared with mons in A- and A ranks, I think Dialga is better than all A- mons, and better than Mega Mewtwo X and possibly Mega Audino as far as effectiveness in its role goes.

--> B+: This mon is honestly only prepared for because Gira/Regi/Aegi are so commonly used for other threats. Aegi struggles with Regi because of Shadow Claw. Oh and if I didn't mention I'm focusing on the PH Shift Gear Facade/Shadow Claw/WoW set. Regi struggles at beating this as well if it doesn't have Encore/Topsy Turvy, and Gira can't break it without Metal Burst/Entrainment or Gastro Acid/Topsy Turvy. Why is this better than Slaking? The spdef. First it survives Ray's Fakespeed combo if Ray comes in to revenge kill when Regi is at 100% and has a shift gear up (this scenario is a lot more common than you would think). Boomburst is a roll for 4 investment with a bit of HP investment with Regi, you can do a bunch of customization with the set goes honestly.

--> B: Don't really use this mon but it's annoying to face when using -ate mons. It becomes easier to deal with once rocky helmet gets knocked off but until then you have to play safe or go for hax. It's a cool alternative to usual -ate counters and useful enough to warrant a raise.

--> B: Wow this thing is ranked crazy low. I mean really? It's mixed in with niche stuff like Cress and Palkia? First off it's moldy set is a very reliable answer to Shedinja and can get rocks up nice. Also a check to Ray because Dragon Ascent hits crazy hard. Next up Ive been trying to build around a Magic Guard LO set with Head Smash and Brave Bird and that hits like a fucking truck. Crazy wall breaking and can OHKO Gira. I look forward to using this more, and I don't see any reason for it not to be in the same rank as Slaking and Groudon.

--> B: Its better than Aggron and Metagross and I think those mons are fine in their respective ranks so please move it up to B. Same sets as Aegi/Regi with better defense and has a fun spider web set that's cool on certain teams.

--> C: Annnndddd there goes all credibility in this post. Since most of you are probably gonna skip this part anyway Ill make it short and sweet. Imposter Light Ball is honestly so unprepared for. Imposter Pdon 2HKOs non Fur Coat Gira with V-Create. Copying an -ate user is scary with Boomburst. Try it out, but don't play it like you would a Chansey.

That's it. Shout out to all my gooses.

Since there's a bit of controversy for the one post I'll chip in my own two cents:

Dialga:

I think A- is fine for Dialga since it's on about the same level of wallbreaking as Mega Latios. In addition, the set which does this is the Tinted Lens set and not the Soundproof one and as we all know, the Tinted set cannot function without proper team support. Since one of the main measures of the placement of mons into different viability rankings is required team support, I think A- is a good spot for Dialga as it definitely is not on the same level of requiring team support as mons such as Mega Tyranitar and Registeel. As for the Soundproof set (which I think Dina came up with), it's definitely a cool set but its easily wallable and manageable as a good majority of teams have a Prankster encore user. So while it doesn't require Imposter proofing support anymore, it falls short on the wallbreaking department which the Tinted set performs so well in.


Regigigas:

The PH set does not run WoW as it enables Imposters to counter sweep....idk where that set came from but it's definitely not the one commonly used. The set that is commonly run is usually SG/Facade/coverage/utility (or coverage, in some rare cases Espeed even). So an example set would be something like SG/Facade/Thousand Arrows/Knock Off (or Spiky Shield). Even with Knock Off, the common PH Giratina set completely walls this Regigigas thanks to Topsy-Turvy. Steels can also wall this if it is running Knock Off + Spiky Shield which is also a common set since Spiky Shield enables Regigias to function without pivot support. So in essence, Regigigas needs to trade team support for coverage which hurts it in either case in terms of its viability (full coverage is still wallable AND needs pivoting support, 1 coverage move + Spiky Shield makes it even easier to wall). Once again, as mentioned before, a higher viability mon requires less support from the team and has less flaws. Regigias has the main flaw of not being able to obtain a good coverage with only 2 attacking moves (since Ghosts are immune to its STAB while types such as Rock and Steel resist it, and there is no coverage move that hits all of these types super effectively), which severely limits it when compared to other physical PH sweepers which only need 2 moves (such as Koff+Diamond Storm in the case of Mega Tyranitar), which in turn results in requiring more team support and a lower viability ranking. Unfortunately in BH where the strongest defensive typings are Steel and Ghost, Regigigas is not that strong when compared to the other PH sweepers since its main STAB is not good vs either defensive type, which is the main reason why Regigigas is at the B rank. To compensate for this notable flaw, Regigigas needs to sacrifice something to gain something else (so either sacrificing Spiky Shield for an additional coverage move or sacrificing the coverage move for Spiky Shield), which in either case results in requiring some sort of team support (pivot support for the first one and wallbreaking support for the other). For these reasons, I think that the B rank is fine for Regigigas.

Groudon:

The Soundproof set is indeed seeing a comeback since the usage of Techno Blast is decreasing, but keep in mind that Groudon's viability entirely depends on the foe's -ate user. If it is using Boomburst, Groudon is great; if it's running Techno Blast, you're screwed. Having such a shaky -ate answer greatly reduces its overall viability as your whole team's vulnerability to -ate users rests entirely on essentially a coin flip of whether the -ate user is carrying Boomburst or Techno Blast. This is why Soundproof users are usually accompanied by another -ate answer, which together form an -ate walling core. Once again, this is screaming team support which once again reduces viability. Oh, and not to mention that Groudon is weak to Refrigerate, which is kinda rising in popularity due to the increased usage of stuff like Mega Garchomp (cough cough) which once again reduces its viability. For these reasons, I think Groudon's B- rank is fine.

Mega Aerodactyl:

The common niches that Aero is used for are the Mold Breaker and Magic Guard sets, both of which are awesome. However, each of them are also held back by a lot of things and they are also used for very specific niches; otherwise there are better options that generally outperform Aero in those respective roles. Let's talk about the Mold Breaker set first: the niche offered by Aero is the amazing Speed tier which enables Aero to revenge kill faster threats such as MMY in addition to the common Mold Breaker roles of beating Shedinja and setting hazards/putting stuff to sleep. So if a team doesn't need some sort of MMY check for example, there are better alternatives to Aero (such as Giratina and Mega Gengar). Also keep in mind that the Mold Breaker Aero set usually doesn't carry recovery (it usually has Pursuit/DStorm/Stealth Rock+Taunt or Spore+Koff or some combination of these) so it is easily worn down, also its typing means that it cannot directly switch into Shedinja as Endeavor+priority can take it down (unless if it carries Rocky Helmet, which makes it vulnerable to Prankster Spore). Once again, emphasis on the notable niche part of this set which I will get back to later.

As for the Magic Guard set, once again it has a very notable niche which is being able to outspeed and KO things like MMY. If the Speed tier isn't a concern, Mega Diancie performs better than Aero as it can opt for a mixed wallbreaker set with LoR/Head Smash/Flare Blitz which can break much more effectively than the mono-physical set of Aero.

If we take a look at the description for the C rank viability, it says "Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the BH metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon." Does this sound familiar? This is indeed a perfect description of Mega Aero, which is exactly why it belongs at the highest C rank viability, C+.

Mega Steelix:

I won't go too in depth on this one but in the BH meta where mixed attackers are all over the place, purely one dimensional tanks are inferior to mixed walls. This is why Registeel and Aegislash are so much more common than the likes of Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix. For this reason, the one dimensional walls need to compensate for their weaker defensive stat in either the form of an ability (Fur Coat, Soundproof), an item (Eviolite), or sometimes both (RegenVest, FC Soul Dew). If used as an -ate answer, Mega Steelix needs to run Soundproof whereas the mixed bulk Steels are free to chose their ability. In addition to this, the same argument used for Groudon can be used here: Soundproof users are potential liabilities for the team if the foe is carrying Techno Blast. With Mega Steelix's weak SpD, even a resisted Techno Blast does a lot of damage. In addition, any special coverage also defeats Mega Steelix (Magma Storm, Ground Plate Judgment, etc) whereas the mixed bulk Steels can sometimes even avoid getting KO'd thanks to their abilities (Prankster, RegenVest, Flash Fire, etc). Being on the same viability ranking as Mega Aggron imo is fine as well as the additional Ground typing makes Mega Steelix neutral to Refrigerate in addition to making it weak to Water. Besides, Groudon outperforms Mega Steelix as well and Groudon is B rank which means that Mega Steelix shouldn't be at that same level of viability. In conclusion, I think Mega Steelix is fine at C+.

Pikachu:

And now, the main topic of controversy. First, let's talk about why Pikachu over Chansey. The only reason for this is Light Ball giving the Imposter a +2 boost in Atk and SpA, which can be devastating for the opponent if their team is not prepared for Imposters. The one thing that holds Pikachu back however is its weak bulk. This means that unlike Chansey, which usually doesn't care about losing Speed ties (which is why it's so viable to use), Pikachu can potentially get KOd if it loses the Speed tie. So far, using Pikachu seems like a horrible idea since you are essentially relying on coin flips. However, with proper team support (Tail Wind, Nuzzle support, etc.), using Pikachu can become more justified. With the mention of team support also comes decreased viability so we already know that since Pikachu requires extensive team support (unlike Groudon for example which only needs an -ate core partner), it won't be anything higher than a C+. But now let's take a look at the descriptions of both the C and D ranks and see which one suits Pikachu better:

"C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the BH metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon."
"D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it."

While both descriptions could potentially work for Pikachu, we need to ask ourselves which one is the better fit. While Pikachu has a notable niche and requires significant support to be effective, it is also only capable of doing a specific task and nothing more. It also has the crippling flaw of low bulk+Speed tie risk which prevents it from being successful a majority of the time, unless if accompanied by significant team support. I think the defining factor here is the fact that Pikachu cannot do anything other than Imposter+Light Ball, which fits the description for the D rank viability.

 

[motherlove]

So I'm just curious, when did we stop Ranking mons based on how good they are or how well they perform in the current meta and instead started ranking them based on a definition that was most likely added after the VA was done and can always be interpreted in multiple ways? Adrian even told me that the early VR were not constructed based on the definition.
I mean most rank description say the exact same thing at different degree and it seems kinda dumb to say "Mega Ray is fantastic while Gengar is only amazing".
Most OMs and most official Tier don't use Rank description, because they're just kinda stupid. So why does everyone act like they're so important in BH?
If it went only by definition than Swampert or Venu would probably be around B while Groudon or Yveltal would be like C, even Chansey would go down.

I mean the D rank description even says "Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it."
But Pikachu isn't outclassed, it's by far the best at what is does, so the C rank description would be better, since it literally says the same exact thing but without the untrue end part, plus Pikachu is probably a hell of a lot more viable and used than MegaZor or Cress is.

I mean wether it raises or not isn't even what I'm arguing about, but this "The Rank description says that so WE CAN'T POSSIBLY PUT IT HIGHER" kinda logic is pretty disappointing.

 

[Rumors]

motherlove The definition is there to define the ranks. If it is wrong or irrelevant, then they should be changed, refined, or removed. I'll keep arguing using them because they're the official definitions and have been for well over a year. But if those definitions are changed or removed, then I'll change or drop those arguments when the time comes. At least, that's my opinion. I simply feel if they're there, they should be adhered to. And if we should be ignoring them, then they should be removed.


Quantum Tesseract I put the ~10%, or roughly 10%, for a reason. It'll, of course, vary. But needing 13% instead of 10% isn't much of a difference. But generally, as I said, proof = hard counter. Resistant = soft counter or check. I don't think I can be any more clear.

...also, please stop arguing Pursuit for Gengar not being Imposter-proof in general when it runs it less than 20% of the time even in high ladder, as tysequaine pointed out. Over 80% of the time, the Imposter does not have that tool against Gengar and, 100% of the time, Gengar one-shots the Imposter anyway. (Well, Chansey might take two, but it is not two-shotting Gengar with Pursuit)

As for Sheer Force Mega-Sceptile...

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

3HKO on one of the best standard special walls in the tier is certainly garbage, I agree. It'd be less if Chansey invested in special defense, but the tier isn't kind to one-sided walls right now and it'd be begging for Scept to carry Secret Sword to end it.

As for Hoopa-U, I admit I have little experience using it, and someone corrected me and I edited out the Imposter-proof bit, but my observations of seeing it in action and looking at its stats suggest it can do a few neat things with its typing.

On Gengar, all of those except Mega-evolving for Shadow Tag were Mega-Gengar. I simply didn't type Mega over and over because I assumed you'd realize Mega. My fault for not being clearer. But Mega-Gengar is really flexible beyond shot nuking stuff. For example, Normalize with Entrainment / Curse / Substitute / Recover is a disruptive asshole. Sure, it can't trap, but it's frustrating as hell to deal with and grabs the game's momentum by the balls and twists until the opponent makes a dumb move or you understand enough to make a favorable switch. Only thing I hate about the set is some random I battled came up with it, not me. There's also Normalize with Entrainment / Trapping / Perish Song / Filler. And the classic Normalize with Skill Swap / Shell Smash / Judgement / Secret Sword that often failed because noobs used it but was disgustingly good when used properly. It can also be an non-item reliant Anti-Imposter using Bullet Proof with Shadow Ball / coverage Judgement / coverage or filler from there. That one's kinda gimmicky, but still really fun and effective.

Shedinja can run Magic Guard and Scrappy to some effect for surprise factor, though these are generally less desirable than Sturdy. But work nicely with a Sturdinja. Study Shedinja can do other things that I already illustrated. Seriously though, I'm not the expert on Sheddy. Lcass comes to mind as the one who, AFAIK, knows Sheddy the best and you're better asking him for everything it can do.

Pdon's limited on item and ability, but it has fantastic stat spread and typing. Just distribute stats differently and choose some different moves and it can perform a different role. Often more or less offensive, because why waste that 180 Attack? But, V-Create, Sacred Fire, Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves, Precipice Blades, Nichequake, Eruption, Blue Flare, Earth Power, Ice Shard for Mega-Ray, Synthesis, Will-O-Wisp, Spiky Kings Shield, Taunt, Dragon Tail, Shift Gear, Swords Dance, Coil, Hone Claws, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, Shell Smash, Dragon Tail, honestly any physical coverage move you could need, and more all seem to have potential usefulness on Pdon for different things. It's just a wee bit lacking on the special defensive side, and its special attack isn't great, though Desolate Land seriously helps its Fire-STAB. Think outside the box! Metas don't change and shift by sticking to the same thing!

Sure, you can use Spooky Pikachu, but then it's outright outclassed by a few hundred Pokemon with Imposter. And before you say nobody uses Blizzard Kyurem, I use Blizzard Kyurem on occasion. Speed Boost with Tail Glow / Blizzard / Spacial Rend / Earth Power makes for an excellent win condition on a Hail team of mine (that, admittedly, needs some updating). Slow Pranskter Copycat Kyurem also is fun with Blizzard, though probably too gimmicky for super serious use.


But, this is way, way off topic. So even if you reply, I'm going to stop unless its about Pikachu's viability ranking or you wish to continue this discussion in an on-topic area, like the main BH thread.

 

[morogrim]

So I'm just curious, when did we stop Ranking mons based on how good they are or how well they perform in the current meta and instead started ranking them based on a definition that was most likely added after the VA was done and can always be interpreted in multiple ways? Adrian even told me that the early VR were not constructed based on the definition.
I mean most rank description say the exact same thing at different degree and it seems kinda dumb to say "Mega Ray is fantastic while Gengar is only amazing".
Most OMs and most official Tier don't use Rank description, because they're just kinda stupid. So why does everyone act like they're so important in BH?
If it went only by definition than Swampert or Venu would probably be around B while Groudon or Yveltal would be like C, even Chansey would go down.

I mean the D rank description even says "Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it."
But Pikachu isn't outclassed, it's by far the best at what is does, so the C rank description would be better, since it literally says the same exact thing but without the untrue end part, plus Pikachu is probably a hell of a lot more viable and used than MegaZor or Cress is.

I mean wether it raises or not isn't even what I'm arguing about, but this "The Rank description says that so WE CAN'T POSSIBLY PUT IT HIGHER" kinda logic is pretty disappointing.

Pikachu isn't the best at what it does (which is Impostering), obviously Chansey does. Why? Because Chansey requires no team support and fits into any team pretty much while Pikachu is a liability if not provided with a significant amount of support. The defitions for VR, as you can see, were not just some random crap lol they actually had some thought put into them. Also, VR definitions aren't descriptions that say "the same thing at a different degree." You could even look and compare the two definitions of Rank C and D that I posted and you'll see they are very different definitions...

 

[QT]

motherlove The definition is there to define the ranks. If it is wrong or irrelevant, then they should be changed, refined, or removed. I'll keep arguing using them because they're the official definitions and have been for well over a year. But if those definitions are changed or removed, then I'll change or drop those arguments when the time comes. At least, that's my opinion. I simply feel if they're there, they should be adhered to. And if we should be ignoring them, then they should be removed.

We already aren't using them- this is actually the first time they've been mentioned since the VR was made. We stole them nearly dirrectly from OU, who has already retired them.

Pikachu isn't the best at what it does (which is Impostering), obviously Chansey does. Why? Because Chansey requires no team support and fits into any team pretty much while Pikachu is a liability if not provided with a significant amount of support. The defitions for VR, as you can see, were not just some random crap lol they actually had some thought put into them. Also, VR definitions aren't descriptions that say "the same thing at a different degree." You could even look and compare the two definitions of Rank C and D that I posted and you'll see they are very different definitions...

Wow, thanks, I didn't know that very mon with the same ability played exactly the same. Alright, we need to unrank Kyu-W because Kyu-B does refridge better, unrank Kyogre, TTar, Slaking, regigigas and MGyara because Giratina and Maudino do poison heal better, unrank sceptile because sheer force, mold breaker, and contrary are done better, unrank Aggron and Steelix because Registeel does their abilities better, unrank cresselia and Lugia because prankster and Unaware are done better, unrank Maudino because Giratina does ph, prankster, and unaware better while Chansey does FC better. Niches? Who needs those?

The problem isn't that we didn't read the rank descriptions, its that they are irrelevant. They are the same text with a few word choice changes (great vs fantastic, etc.). Even if we used them, however, it wouldn't matter in this case: nothing outclasses Pikachu, It has a real niche, it isn't unsuccessful a majority of the time without team support (which isn't onerous either as paralysis is great and so is registee like), and it's not mediocre.


Rumors thats a fair point, so lets go back on topic.
Pikachu is becomeing more viable in the corrent metagame as it shifts somewhat from balance to offense (ray is up 2, diancie up 9, mewtwo's up 3 each, MChomp up 7, etc). It performs a meaningful niche and does so well. It works well in practice. The team support it requires isn't much more extensive than what is assumed for ray/diancie (a registee like/aegislash), and is certainly less than what's required for Shedinja. It forces different plays from team preview even when not being used, and turns 2 of the 3 s-ranks into liabilities. Glare+Pikachu just destroys the current standard offensive team, and most of the others currently in use. Furthermore, an increasingly large fraction of teams are relying on poison heal to handle imposter, which Pikachu just destroys. While it only has one ability, that isn't unique to it, and even the fact that it has only one viable set is mirrored by Gengar.

 

[morogrim]

Wow, thanks, I didn't know that very mon with the same ability played exactly the same. Alright, we need to unrank Kyu-W because Kyu-B does refridge better, unrank Kyogre, TTar, Slaking, regigigas and MGyara because Giratina and Maudino do poison heal better, unrank sceptile because sheer force, mold breaker, and contrary are done better, unrank Aggron and Steelix because Registeel does their abilities better, unrank cresselia and Lugia because prankster and Unaware are done better, unrank Maudino because Giratina does ph, prankster, and unaware better while Chansey does FC better. Niches? Who needs those?

The problem isn't that we didn't read the rank descriptions, its that they are irrelevant. They are the same text with a few word choice changes (great vs fantastic, etc.). Even if we used them, however, it wouldn't matter in this case: nothing outclasses Pikachu, It has a real niche, it isn't unsuccessful a majority of the time without team support (which isn't onerous either as paralysis is great and so is registee like), and it's not mediocre.

Once again, doing something better in general doesn't mean a niche doesn't exist (which you said yourself...). I obviously already said that Pikachu has a niche but you obviously didn't even bother to read my first post. Once again, being unsuccessful 50% of the time without team support is imo a good majority of the time. Without team support, Pikachu is indeed mediocre.

I really do not want to argue about these pointless things (or anything, really) with you as previous experience (and current experience) shows that it never leads anywhere so I ask you to not quote anything I say anymore as you obviously aren't helping neither me or the forum users reading my posts (in addition to being a complete waste of time). Thanks!

 

[The Immortal]

Quantum Tesseract please stop trying to argue with everyone. You're not contributing anything valuable to this thread. Please stop treating everyone that disagrees with you as a bad player; please stop treating everyone that disagrees with you as beneath you. And please stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Your opinions are not fact. I'm not just talking about this thread specifically, your behavior across threads and in the OM room is very unfriendly. It discourages new players from participating and even potentially drives them away from playing. I've seen it first-hand. Try to chill; you don't need to respond to everyone and everything.

 

[Rumors]

Mega-Ray and Diancie can be played almost, if not entirely, independently though. They don't really need support, but anti-Imposter wall, pivot support, and Shed removal are appreciated and make them less risky to use both to it and its team. They aren't necessary for them to function reliably. Same goes to Shed, which only needs anti-Shed-removal support and scouting for Moldy Pursuit. Pikachu, on the other hand, must have pivot support to get in safely because of its fraility and needs Sleep, Paralysis, or Tail Wind support to perform reliably. Without either of those, Pikachu is extremely difficult to use and a potential liability. Its really more akin to Deo-A who, without its Protean set I don't think deserves to be above D-rank anymore, in terms of support needed.


Speaking of, while we're here, can I nominate Deo-A for D-rank? It has great mixed offensive stats, but its so frail Weedle can OHKO it with Bug Bite. Mega-Ray has similar offenses and a superior typing offensively and even defensively while the Mewtwos are better choices if not using mixed. Not to mention its practically forced into running Focus Sash to avoid KOs from stray U-Turns and Volt Switches. What does Deo-A bring to the table that justifies using over Mega-Ray except for situations where you want a stronger Psystrike or Psycho Boost? The Protean set had a niche, but that's gone now, so what does it even do?

 

[dsm77773]

Speaking of, while we're here, can I nominate Deo-A for D-rank? It has great mixed offensive stats, but its so frail Weedle can OHKO it with Bug Bite. Mega-Ray has similar offenses and a superior typing offensively and even defensively while the Mewtwos are better choices if not using mixed. Not to mention its practically forced into running Focus Sash to avoid KOs from stray U-Turns and Volt Switches. What does Deo-A bring to the table that justifies using over Mega-Ray except for situations where you want a stronger Psystrike or Psycho Boost? The Protean set had a niche, but that's gone now, so what does it even do?

Deoxys-A runs a Contrary set that is difficult to check/counter with Imposter (Imposter-resistant) since the Imposter can't switch in without risking a OHKO (even when Deoxys-A is unboosted, provided you run minimal defenses) and Sash will save Deoxys if Imposter comes in for free.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

Well it's obvious no one liked my nominations, which I still don't understand but ok.

Deo-A shouldn't drop, it's essentially a much frailer MMY, which is a good mon. The reason to use Deo over MMY is speed, mixed sets, or contrary. Speed isn't much of a reason so I'd rule that out. Mixed sets are incredibly powerful especially since mixed walls that can take on a mon as strong as Deo doesn't really exist. The Contrary set is harder to use with the better players you face, since you need the checks eliminated before you can do anything and a good opponent knows to keep them able of revenge killing Deo. It's definitely a downgrade compared to MMY but not so much worse where it deserves to be 3 ranks below it. I think where it is is fine.

 

[Rumors]

So, it does the same thing as Protean, but worse since it lacks immediate power? Contrary is strong and all, but it needs a few turns to get going. And Deo-A doesn't have a few turns to get going unless you're OHKOing everything... at which point Contrary is redundant. It doesn't really take advantage of V-Create either because its bulky is hideously mediocre. Mega-Ray runs mixed better since STAB Draco Meteor is more useful than Psycho Boost, it has the bulk to utilize V-Create, which also makes speed difference moot after one use, and it has the option of STAB Dragon Ascent as well. Ytwo does special better since it can use V-Create since it gains reasonable bulk after one or two. Xtwo does physical better because STAB Super Power.

Plus, Deo-A needs a boost or prior damage on the Imposter to reliably OHKO Chansey while using a negative nature. Which means Mega-Ray can also do the Focus Sash thing too if it gets a Draco Meteor off before Chansey switches in, Eviolite or not.

....so really, what does Deo-A bring to the table without Protean?

 

[IronicDouble (‽)]

I am here to Nominate GROUDON to B or B+ Rank.

For all you BH lovers, you probably know about the ladder. This new person, KmiJustWantDeath, has become #1 on the ladder. His team revolves around Groudon, a very cancerous pokemon that does alot.

His Set: Dark Void/Substitute/Thousand Waves/Leech Seed with Leftovers. Ability: Prankster. EVS: 252HP/252DEF/4SPDEF Impish

What does this set do? Well for 1, its Prankster Dark Void. Dark Void then allows Groudon to either, A. Set up a Substitute; B. Trap his opponent; or C. Leech Seed his opponent for residual recovery.

Now after whatever he does, he can procede to Trap the opponent, Leech Seed him, and then continue to use Thousand Waves for damage until the opponent is dead.

Groudon also has very nice physical bulk, so it can live many physical hits. Alternative sets include running specially defensive sets to even beat Aerilate and Pixilate.

I hope I gave a good explanation. If you have questions just ask.