Last edited:
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
AAA Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter Isaiah
- Start date
It has been tested and is a slicing move btw
Last edited:
It IS implemented on PS as a slicing move. Only replying to this to make sure everyone is aware.
WALKING WAKE IS NOW BANNED FROM AAA More serious reasoning: Water / Dragon is actually perfect coverage right now because Water / Fairy, Dragon / Fairy, and Grass / Steel are all illegal/unreleased (or are Azumarill lol). Choice Specs + Beads of Ruin disintegrated common specially defensive Pokemon like Iron Moth and Florges/Scream Tail, even going as far as forcing the latter to resort to Water immunity abilities for counterplay. Pokemon like RegenVest Dondozo popped up in an attempt to address Walking Wake, but even that folded after moderate chip damage. Other sets like Magic Guard + Life Orb gave Walking Wake the option to switch up moves and break down attempts to beat it by switching between Steel-types. There isn't a whole lot else to say, really. Strong special attacker was too bonkers, so we had to get rid of it a day in.
VOTES:
Ban - Isaiah, Jrdn, QT, atha
DNB - DFM
ABS - UT
Result: 4-1-1 BAN
Tagging Kris and Marty for implementation
inb4 someone makes a funny post about tatsugiri. It was legal since day 1 you aint a real one smh
i sniped isaiah on omcord but it got deleted
anyways here 2 things: hizo propaganda and my thoughts on a gholdengo-free meta
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 411-484 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 341-403 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 928-1092 (245.5 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
how about neutral mons?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 300-355 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO does anyone run regenvest max spdef tusk anyway
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sandy Shocks: 493-581 (158.5 - 186.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 643-758 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
blissey cant touch this at all btw, immune to ghost and normal. (hizo walls hizo)
thats all i have to say
next, my thoughts on a meta where gholdenGOld(ES) [i am a comedian]. most great tusk will stop running scrappy. those relying on eq as their way of hitting steels (bax, dnite) get so so much better due to ee / levi gholden no longer existing hence not walling them.
triage users like hatterene no longer have to
when seeing the epic corv garg gholden moth core (hariyama eats those but hates gholden so much)
gengar definitely rises in usage as the best ghost in the tier, but we shall see. ee / levi / wbb kingambit rises as the offensive defensive steel, but has an exploitable quad fighting weakness and can lose to a brick break / low kick from bax and dnite respectively (start running it over eq when gholden gets banned trust)
bax definitely needs to go, with nearly nothing checking it, barring dondozo, some corvi variants, etc
nite will definitely be better, in particular its ddance + roost variants, slot in low kick and call it a day as u ohko kingambit any day and murder garg with spikes support / chip. i wouldn't even be surprised with a dnite suspect
above average tusk would probably lack the need of scrappy and can go back to monke with banded adaptability / tclaws / sor
oh and spinning rocks away becomes much easier now
rmoon loses a bit of viability as checking gholden is one of its key points, it will still be good but not the same.
bye blobs may you never return again
thats about all i have in mind rn, this is just theorywork so dont expect this to be exact to the point barring some oBvious threAts that can easily be fiXed (banned)
anyways here 2 things: hizo propaganda and my thoughts on a gholdengo-free meta
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 411-484 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 341-403 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 928-1092 (245.5 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
how about neutral mons?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 300-355 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO does anyone run regenvest max spdef tusk anyway
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sandy Shocks: 493-581 (158.5 - 186.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 643-758 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
blissey cant touch this at all btw, immune to ghost and normal. (hizo walls hizo)
thats all i have to say
next, my thoughts on a meta where gholdenGOld(ES) [i am a comedian]. most great tusk will stop running scrappy. those relying on eq as their way of hitting steels (bax, dnite) get so so much better due to ee / levi gholden no longer existing hence not walling them.
triage users like hatterene no longer have to
when seeing the epic corv garg gholden moth core (hariyama eats those but hates gholden so much)gengar definitely rises in usage as the best ghost in the tier, but we shall see. ee / levi / wbb kingambit rises as the offensive defensive steel, but has an exploitable quad fighting weakness and can lose to a brick break / low kick from bax and dnite respectively (start running it over eq when gholden gets banned trust)
bax definitely needs to go, with nearly nothing checking it, barring dondozo, some corvi variants, etc
nite will definitely be better, in particular its ddance + roost variants, slot in low kick and call it a day as u ohko kingambit any day and murder garg with spikes support / chip. i wouldn't even be surprised with a dnite suspect
above average tusk would probably lack the need of scrappy and can go back to monke with banded adaptability / tclaws / sor
oh and spinning rocks away becomes much easier now
rmoon loses a bit of viability as checking gholden is one of its key points, it will still be good but not the same.
bye blobs may you never return again
thats about all i have in mind rn, this is just theorywork so dont expect this to be exact to the point barring some oBvious threAts that can easily be fiXed (banned)
Last edited:
Was Walking Wake banned already??? Wow, that was fast, on other terms, Electric Terrian Setters!!!
Electric terrain usually is just used for surge surfer sweepers, like Houndstone or (banned) Iron Hands.
Sandy Shocks can use a hardon engine to set it up, yet when abusing this strategy, it rarely is worth running terrain extender
Sandy Shocks @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Trick/Spikes
The notable users who can run a hardon engine with a terrain extender are Kilowatterel and Rotom Forms
Abusers usually consist of surge surfer or quark drive
No suitable competing terrain, and even with home Azelf lost its expanding force. Grassy Glide has basically been nerfed. Armarouge could try to copy Azelf, but it's too slow to be threatening.
Electric terrain usually is just used for surge surfer sweepers, like Houndstone or (banned) Iron Hands.
Sandy Shocks can use a hardon engine to set it up, yet when abusing this strategy, it rarely is worth running terrain extender
Sandy Shocks @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Trick/Spikes
The notable users who can run a hardon engine with a terrain extender are Kilowatterel and Rotom Forms
Kilowattrel @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Tailwind
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers/Choice Scarf
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Trick/Shadow Ball
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Tailwind
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers/Choice Scarf
Ability: Hardon Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Trick/Shadow Ball
Abusers usually consist of surge surfer or quark drive
Iron Leaves @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Ability: Sharpness/Dazzling
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade
- Close Combat/Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
Dazzling is an option for Bax's Ice Shard and Dragonite's E Speed
Houndstone @ Electric Seed
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Body Press
- Play Rough
- Substitute
You could run a choice band set, but sub can be used to counter tanks.
Hariyama @ Electric Seed
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Belly Drum
Budget Iron Hands
Ability: Sharpness/Dazzling
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade
- Close Combat/Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
Dazzling is an option for Bax's Ice Shard and Dragonite's E Speed
Houndstone @ Electric Seed
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Body Press
- Play Rough
- Substitute
You could run a choice band set, but sub can be used to counter tanks.
Hariyama @ Electric Seed
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Belly Drum
Budget Iron Hands
No suitable competing terrain, and even with home Azelf lost its expanding force. Grassy Glide has basically been nerfed. Armarouge could try to copy Azelf, but it's too slow to be threatening.
A what engine?
Grim_Blazer
Banned deucer.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that Kilowattrel doesn't take great advantage of hadron engine since it's not grounded and therefore can't get the full boosting effects from it.
Fixed that, oops
Disappointing, had fun using it for a day and a half: Fluffy WW with an assault vest was my favorite from what I tested and used. Sucks that gholdengo might see the same fate, but oh wells it is what it is.Reasoning: View attachment 495911
More serious reasoning: Water / Dragon is actually perfect coverage right now because Water / Fairy, Dragon / Fairy, and Grass / Steel are all illegal/unreleased (or are Azumarill lol). Choice Specs + Beads of Ruin disintegrated common specially defensive Pokemon like Iron Moth and Florges/Scream Tail, even going as far as forcing the latter to resort to Water immunity abilities for counterplay. Pokemon like RegenVest Dondozo popped up in an attempt to address Walking Wake, but even that folded after moderate chip damage. Other sets like Magic Guard + Life Orb gave Walking Wake the option to switch up moves and break down attempts to beat it by switching between Steel-types. There isn't a whole lot else to say, really. Strong special attacker was too bonkers, so we had to get rid of it a day in.
VOTES:
Ban - Isaiah, Jrdn, QT, atha
DNB - DFM
ABS - UT
Result: 4-1-1 BAN
Tagging Kris and Marty for implementation
Tatsugiri-Droopy @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- Draco Meteor
Tatsugiri-Droopy @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
:3
Last edited:
Freedom from the eternal pain! Now all my teams i wasted away working on will be viable for one more week before Gholdengo (hopefully) gets banned. Anyway, since my teams and effort will all be nulled fairly soon I've decided to just dump all the teams I've used to decent success so far before I end up having to delete them all because that just breaks my heart, and hey, it might help some more to get reqs for the suspect to ban Gholdengo if I'm lucky. (And most don't have RegenTusk in them... so it's an escape for the addicts into another addiction.)Reasoning: View attachment 495911
More serious reasoning: Water / Dragon is actually perfect coverage right now because Water / Fairy, Dragon / Fairy, and Grass / Steel are all illegal/unreleased (or are Azumarill lol). Choice Specs + Beads of Ruin disintegrated common specially defensive Pokemon like Iron Moth and Florges/Scream Tail, even going as far as forcing the latter to resort to Water immunity abilities for counterplay. Pokemon like RegenVest Dondozo popped up in an attempt to address Walking Wake, but even that folded after moderate chip damage. Other sets like Magic Guard + Life Orb gave Walking Wake the option to switch up moves and break down attempts to beat it by switching between Steel-types. There isn't a whole lot else to say, really. Strong special attacker was too bonkers, so we had to get rid of it a day in.
VOTES:
Ban - Isaiah, Jrdn, QT, atha
DNB - DFM
ABS - UT
Result: 4-1-1 BAN
Tagging Kris and Marty for implementation
SD Baxculibur Balance
Probably my most consistent team I’ve used so far, although admittedly I haven’t used in a bit and mostly a slightly different version, however still a cool team. The main gist of the team relies on getting Baxculibur in to rip and shred teams to pieces, while the rest of the team serves as a defensive backbone, pivot and ways to deal with offensive monsters that Bax can’t. Fairly generic except the Dragonite set, which I use as a Fire check, hence the bulk investment (this may not be a great idea but it’s good enough with PrimSea Greninja in the mix as well) while further making sure offense wont get anyway and Fire Punch is more valuable to lure Bax checks like Earth Eater Gholdengo and Kingambit, or at least weaken them to the point a +2 Bax can just beat them.
All-Out-Attacker Gholdengo Balance/Offense
Fairly similar teams, although the below team has always proved to be much more aggressive. Gholdengo serves as the main offensive mon on the first while is also there to blow up defensive cores with Specs Gren and SD Ace below, with the rest of the teams meant to serve as defensive backbone and support/pivot. Psyshock on Gholdengo is odd but allows it to completely blow up Iron Moth which is very important as it’s usually one of the few things stopping Ghold and Gren from going ham (TWave could also be an option), and honestly could run the same Ghold sets on both teams, although Steelworker allows it to more properly nuke RMoon for Specs Greninja. SD Ace, while nice, was also kinda filler, and could possibly be replaced to compensate for the teams poorer matchup into offensive spam involving the likes of Baxculibur and Houndstone.
Dragon's Maw Hydreigon + Tinted SlitherWing Balance
Pretty cool team featuring uniquely Dragons Maw Hydreigon (as well as like the only balance without RMoon here). Special Dragon STAB is actually quite insanely cracked given the relative rarity of Fairy-types and Draco Meteor being reallllyyy strong (+2 Draco is able to brute force Sandstream Garg into an OHKO) and the only real special resist being hammered by Dark STAB (Gholdengo). WBB Gholdengo also synergises very well for this team, able to cover defensively for physical Fire-types while also checking and posing significant offensive pressure against the few Fairy types that could stuff Hydreigon while SlitherWing is able to spam U-Turn and get Hydreigon in, especially against Gholdengo. Team can suffer against offense spam, given how slow everything is here, but it's not impossible to play around with SlitherWing + your defensive backbone. BU Spin Tusk can also potentially pose problems, but if I need to I can wisp it. Also, if Gholdengo does get banned, Beads of Ruin might be better on Hydreigon so it can more properly dispatch the Fairies it needs to as it'll lack WBB Ghold (WBB Kingambit could possibly work? But doesn't generally have as much offensive pressure as I'd like it to have, and loses to physical Fire-types). RegenVest Tusk EVs could also possibly be optimised, but I'm too lazy to do that personally.
Fat.
Fat. Not sure what much I have to say about playing it, you just spam residual damage and hope you dont get bad matchups lol you aren't walling everything in the meta at this stage. BU Talonflame and the Adapt Corv seem strange but have put in their fair share of work, BU Talonflame serves as a potent wincon and can kinda check Tusk and Hatterene, at least in a 1v1 (could add Wisp/bulk EVs potentially) but does make the team a bit weaker by relying on WA Garg so Quav is more annoying. Adapt Corv is more of a meme but can check Hatterene (who for some reason always thinks Corv is free CM setup) and other random offensive mons, but feel free to replace it (Bulletproof Gholdengo can help alleviate signficant pressure from Gengar/AOA Ghold). I love BU Scrappy Tusk personally, but Regen is a fine choice for the Tusks and you could potentially run TDebris or WA ScreamTail (frees up needing a Water immunity) and work from there honestly, so teams has a fair share of potential improvement but they've worked fine enough for me so far on ladder anyway.
SFLO Gengar Balance
Same concepts, although defensive cores are shuffled around a bit. Fluffy Corv I think is still something worth exploring and paired it up defensive Quav (use whatever ability, MG could also be real) which can kinda check what Fluffy Corv hates (Physical Fire-types, Chien-Pao) while having some offensive niche, granted that can lose to FPunch Aerilate DNite but oh well. Otherwise I tried cramming in RegenTusk for once, ended up using Vessel of Ruin Roaring Moon (terrible, don't use it if you can) but it still checks the Fires/Waters well enough if you dont let them U-Turn too much anyway. Otherwise it's just SFLO Gengar go brrr, this mon is ultra-broken if you give it the chances to go ham on the enemy defensive mons and whatever coverage can be used for 4th slot, I just used DPulse to hit Bulletproof Joe although DGleam potentially could be used to smack to not gamble against Roaring Moon.
VoltTurn Offense
Pivot, pivot and pivot some more! (is this how you play offense?) Both teams abuse spamming pivot to get their central breakers in to do quite the bit of damage (SD Bax and SFLO Gengar), Slither + Kilo can both spam pivot very well while having respectable power themselves, Kilo also checking physical Fire-types. Dazzling Greninja is an experiment to help deal with annoying priority, particularly Triage Hatterene and Aerilate Dragonite which is annoying for both teams otherwise. Cinderace provides, well, more pivot while also having Court Change which can be valuable as Corviknight's Defog can often be unreliable but is fairly replacable (could add Shed Tail in here perhaps?). Run SD or DD on Bax, whichever you prefer, although I've always liked SD to bust through checks while DD Bax can be more game-ending once its checks are removed. Corviknight + Roaring Moon otherwise provide the closest thing to checking the offensive metagame in a 2 mon-combo we currently have while spamming pivot.
(https://pokepast.es/e449b48e6782e3c9 bonus Talonflame team I made that I'm not sure how viable actually is, but I'll just put it here for UT)
As some final notes, all the Levitate Gholdengos you see can probably be replaced once Gholdengo goes as Bax will soon go after (and if it doesn't, then I have serious questions for the council). Also as a pattern, I've found that offensive threats really outpace defensive checks in quantity and potency, especially on specially defensive side. In terms of special walls, there's only a few really viable ones off the top of my head, RegenVest RMoon, Sandstream Garg and random immunities or SpD Moth if you consider that a SpD wall of any kind. In comparison, you have to deal with so many very potent threats like AOA Iron Moth (or Fires in general), Teapot, AOA Gholdengo, SFLO Gengar (and Zoro-H now I guess?), PrimSea Greninja, Hadron Engine Electrics and there are still even more niche options that are still very potent like SFLO Jugulius and Beads of Ruin/Dragons Maw Hydreigon/Tatsurigi and so on (just for the special side). Of course there are perhaps some underexplored defensive options, and you can't check everything with one team, but my god does offense feel so overwhelming to account for defensively but hey it might get better once I stop needing to cram a dedicated Bax check on every team.
Last edited:
good points, I think regenvest tusk is the best set, and now that I run it everything else seems dumb, especially in gholdengo meta, borderline mandatory to seamlessly weave in and out and come in on threats with just enough health to survive and ko, or knock off, you can't really ask for much more in a regenvest, maybe gamefreak will release amuk this decadei sniped isaiah on omcord but it got deleted
View attachment 495925
anyways here 2 things: hizo propaganda and my thoughts on a gholdengo-free meta
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 411-484 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 341-403 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 928-1092 (245.5 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
how about neutral mons?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 300-355 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO does anyone run regenvest max spdef tusk anyway
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sandy Shocks: 493-581 (158.5 - 186.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 643-758 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
blissey cant touch this at all btw, immune to ghost and normal. (hizo walls hizo)
thats all i have to say
next, my thoughts on a meta where gholdenGOld(ES) [i am a comedian]. most great tusk will stop running scrappy. those relying on eq as their way of hitting steels (bax, dnite) get so so much better due to ee / levi gholden no longer existing hence not walling them.
triage users like hatterene no longer have to
gengar definitely rises in usage as the best ghost in the tier, but we shall see. ee / levi / wbb kingambit rises as the offensive defensive steel, but has an exploitable quad fighting weakness and can lose to a brick break / low kick from bax and dnite respectively (start running it over eq when gholden gets banned trust)
bax definitely needs to go, with nearly nothing checking it, barring dondozo, some corvi variants, etc
nite will definitely be better, in particular its ddance + roost variants, slot in low kick and call it a day as u ohko kingambit any day and murder garg with spikes support / chip. i wouldn't even be surprised with a dnite suspect
above average tusk would probably lack the need of scrappy and can go back to monke with banded adaptability / tclaws / sor
oh and spinning rocks away becomes much easier now
rmoon loses a bit of viability as checking gholden is one of its key points, it will still be good but not the same.
bye blobs may you never return again
thats about all i have in mind rn, this is just theorywork so dont expect this to be exact to the point barring some oBvious threAts that can easily be fiXed (banned)
anyways with the inevitability of gholdengo ban, this lowers umbreon viability, but maybe not enough to become unused, someone who cares more for the exact numbers can do the foul play calcs
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Taunt
- Foul Play
your last line of defense on stall, tweak the evs to live sheer force whatever you need for your team, the idea is force them to boost to beat your assault vest/spedef pex whatever, they get crippled or knockoff in the process, then when they're +2 or whatever, you switch to umbreon, wish protect stall out problematic moves like focus blast, or anything that does 50-60 percent, foul play goes through bulk up defense boosts, the more they boost their attack the more devastating foul play becomes, it seems many players are unaware of this as they keep boosting maybe to stall pp, or in believe that bulk up will mitigate the damage but it does not, foul play either 1 hits hisuizo and gengar or comes close enough, that you should have probably gotten damage on it beforehand, taunt is just a generally useful move to prevent rest, and corvik defog, lol at slow corvik
I saw someone using my umbreon set today and I was proud
since I'm a pillar of the community and a true giver, I figure I will post my brambleghast set, that COUNTERS great tusk, why more people don't use it I'm not entirely sure, but it was one of my first objectives when building a team to counter great tusk, and surprisingly it counters much more
Brambleghast @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Spikes
- Night Shade/Rapid Spin/Shadow Sneak/Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
why do you accept losing to bulk up or any great tusk, the answer is you have not mastered the art of crafting shitmons into exquisite masterpieces, this will stay a fixture on my team until great tusk is banned, to find the best spinblocker you have to counter the best spinner, yet it does much more than that, quagquavil, any physical attacker without super effective coverage isn't getting through this, including common curse/bulk up/iron defense mons that rely on body press to sweep, also has excellent utility moves, fits perfectly into a hazard stack core, for building a counterteam to common hazard removal I suggest adding good as gold hippowdon or skeledirge, although not mandatory as defog will run out of pp eventually, corviknight works well with it because meowscarda, and resists dragonite and can beat bax and chien pao
Last edited:
Why feinting sets in AAA work (sometimes) [and how to do it]
Let's look at our number 1 example. 
. After a Shell Smash, it would die to nearly any priority, especially if its at 1 HP after living from a 
. So it would run Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Armor Tail (which will be dubbed Priorimmune from now onwards), right? As you rise on ladder, more players will know that it runs Priorimmune, hence they would try to send in a Pokemon that would live the hit, like 
. Guess what, my Polteageist was Pixilate Tera Blast. Now your has been evaporated. A shame, my 
or 
can clean up now. 
switchin on the Shell Smash? +2 252 SpA Pixilate Polteageist Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 459-540 (113.6 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. But how do you get yourself into a situation like this? And how do you abuse the situation? Look at this team, at first it looks like a gimmicky youtuber team, but BlackKnight_Gawain tested it to decent success iirc. This team abuses the removal of a thru the aforementioned pixilate , and slowly dismantling other pieces of the opponent's team with the other attackers. Yes, this team does hate 
, but honestly its blissey so... anyway, I digress, back to why it works. As a player rises throughout the ladder, they are bound to run into the "normal" set, in this case Priorimmune . They would know their best check to it and not waste turns using Priority to kill it and hope to KO it instead. With knowledge of this, one can abuse the opportunity and reveal a counter, in this final example Pixilate. This is also noticable in other cases, like how adapted to Fire-Types in the tier with Well-Baked Body, Ground coverage with Earth Eater, and how 
countered Earth Eater with Scrappy. Now, how do I feint a set? is what you maybe thinking. It ultimately depends on your creativity. For example, I could analyze and notice my
has had trouble with Earth Eater steels. I could run Tinted Lens or Mold Breaker and remove them. Then, I would pair it with other Pokemon that appreciate the baited Pokemon being removed; in this example I would select Triage 
as a partner who greatly appreciates the steels being removed.In theory, this all sounds good, right? Unfortunately, there are many reasons why it also doesn't work. The biggest being the fact that most players will always attempt to check if my
is Priorimmune, with Extreme Speeds, Sucker Punches and others. This strategy only reliably works well on higher ladder, as less opponents will be aware of x set being the best set. Running a fake set also comes with opportunity cost; why run an off-meta set just to beat 1 mon? It requires a lot of thought in teambuilding, practice and predictions to use it to its best abilityTLDR: feinting sets has high risk and high reward, is reliant on the opponent's knowledge of the tier, and lastly requires a lot of skill to maneuver well.
my mind is all over the place rn so half the stuff i wrote might be contradictory
this is based 70%ish opinion 30%ish practice, with my practice being unaware tusk and low kick nite
this is based 70%ish opinion 30%ish practice, with my practice being unaware tusk and low kick nite
BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
Why feinting sets in AAA work (sometimes) [and how to do it]Let's look at our number 1 example.
Now, how do I feint a set? is what you maybe thinking. It ultimately depends on your creativity. For example, I could analyze and notice my
In theory, this all sounds good, right? Unfortunately, there are many reasons why it also doesn't work. The biggest being the fact that most players will always attempt to check if my
TLDR: feinting sets has high risk and high reward, is reliant on the opponent's knowledge of the tier, and lastly requires a lot of skill to maneuver well.
my mind is all over the place rn so half the stuff i wrote might be contradictory
this is based 70%ish opinion 30%ish practice, with my practice being unaware tusk and low kick nite
I really feel the last few lines deserve some extra emphasis.
Feinting sets also genuinely work better as skill level goes up, but also means you are bait for people who don't know the tier very well and opens you up to losses from opponent's misplaying their way out of trouble. Having played AAA more for tour-type games, be it room, forum or whatever else that isn't ladder*, I'm generally more expectant of certain sets and generally grown to predict them be it from standard usage or teamcomp (2 steels? ok one must be wbb/ee). I've generally had more losses that my teams didn't check because they were such odd choices that you wouldn't expect to see them, which most notably includes two Tusk sets, one WBB and one Stamina (
That being said off-meta choices are also as bad as you can see them being, like once they're scouted or revealed early, like the pixilate polt set, your wincons tend to fall pretty fast which also makes them less reliable than using the preferred set. Of course, there are solvable if you're either a paranoid maniac or as nat said, clever enough to outplay your opponent into the right position. I'd love to hear if anyone's tried feinting sets on higher ladder or tours and what kind of success they've gotten out of it.
*(sidenote: can we please talk about how wild low ladder is? I feel like I need some discussion on the funniest/wackiest/cleverest thing we've seen on low ladder, particularly during this suspect period since it's post AAA ladder expanding)
LatiasDigs
formerly digitalson
I feel like feinting is better when you use an already good ability, like all the steel types are already doing with wbb/ee (or wbb/va with corv)Why feinting sets in AAA work (sometimes) [and how to do it]Let's look at our number 1 example.
Now, how do I feint a set? is what you maybe thinking. It ultimately depends on your creativity. For example, I could analyze and notice my
In theory, this all sounds good, right? Unfortunately, there are many reasons why it also doesn't work. The biggest being the fact that most players will always attempt to check if my
TLDR: feinting sets has high risk and high reward, is reliant on the opponent's knowledge of the tier, and lastly requires a lot of skill to maneuver well.
my mind is all over the place rn so half the stuff i wrote might be contradictory
this is based 70%ish opinion 30%ish practice, with my practice being unaware tusk and low kick nite
Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wave Crash
- Earthquake
- Body Press
- Curse
Magic Guard protects Dondozo from passive damage from Hazards, Salt Cure, etc. making a counter to Garganacl. Also it can fire Wave Crashes without any recoil.
. They could easily get pass
's Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Armor Tail. Did you know that
protects the holder from effects that ignore Abilities?
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wave Crash
- Earthquake
- Body Press
- Curse
Magic Guard protects Dondozo from passive damage from Hazards, Salt Cure, etc. making a counter to Garganacl. Also it can fire Wave Crashes without any recoil.
What if something has the ability Mold Breaker? such as there priority users with that abilityLet's look at our number 1 example.
Last edited:
Great Tusk is broken The challenge here will be making this concise enough for people to want to read it all without dropping too much depth.
While the Gholdengo suspect hasn't ended yet, I figured I should post some of why I think Great Tusk is broken, too. When the time comes to vote, I will certainly be picking QUICKBAN. I hope for no suspect test--at this point, I think it's plenty clear.
There's a reason it's on so many teams, and it's not because it's the only good Defogger (see: Corviknight). If you check out the usage stats below, you'll see that Great Tusk usage has actually managed to increase (even if only slightly) every month despite the total number of ladder games also going up exponentially.
I'll try and keep this to practical examples because I don't think the theory behind "bulky strong mon with amazing moves and typing" is anything crazy.
Great Tusk @ Leftovers / Assault Vest / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Body Press / Bulk Up
Let's look at what Great Tusk actually does to the tier:
- This is broken anyway, not wasting time on it - Goofiest interactions ever are each user bringing in their Great Tusk every second or third turn to click Knock Off or Rapid Spin because unsurprisingly, it can farm even the best built teams this way without much strategy involved.
- Loses its Leftovers to Knock Off and eventually loses to Body Press + Knock Off even if it's Fluffy/Intimidate, OR gets turned into setup fodder by Bulk Up + Rapid Spin sets unless it's running setup of its own (which loses over time anyway because Tusk has infinite health whereas Corviknight does not).
- Has the unique property of losing its HDB or CB to Knock Off because Great Tusk eats even +1 Adamant ESpeed for lunch, meaning that it's possible to actually PP stall Dragonite out of ESpeed with your Fighting-type by switching around (fair, right?) or just plain weaken it now that it's susceptible to entry hazards.
- Can't set up rocks, outright loses to either STAB, or becomes setup fodder for Bulk Up + Rapid Spin sets. Salt Cure chip is cool, but more often than not Regenerator is more than enough to outclass this. - 252+ Atk Technician Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 300-360 (69.1 - 82.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery // 252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 312-368 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKOIntriguing. So even with five hits, Baxcalibur fails to win the one-onone if it's taken relatively minor chip (which is pretty easy to do considering most Bax run Loaded Dice and not HDB). Don't worry, Baxcalibur is broken too--just wanted to point this out.
- Can realistically Wisp Tusk on the switch-in and give it an awful time + Pyro Ball actually does decent damage (esp. if CB Ace). Issue is ofc, this doesn't actually kill Tusk, which means it's still able to get a lot of mileage out of its utility moves.
- HDB DesoLand (by far the most common set) Can't OHKO RegenVest (max Defense) Tusk and dies to Earthquake, still struggles even if it's not AV Tusk (252+ SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk in Harsh Sunshine: 375-442 (86.4 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO is not exactly a guarantee). While Great Tusk's matchup against an obviously special attacker might not seem that important, the fact that it has a niche in being able to stay in and threaten an OHKO vs one of the stronger ones in the tier is absolutely insane. - Walled unless it's Earth Eater, still has trouble against Bulk Up + Rapid Spin - Walled unless it's Choice Band Tera Fairy Pixilate Double-Edge
- Obviously checked by Tusk, both in theory and in practice (unless it's wisp...which isn't really a set?)
- This is another Baxcalibur moment: 252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 273-322 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- can't actually do anything except threaten a flinch in the one-on-one, but obviously fries Tusk at +2 Attack.
- Unless it's that special attacking set or whatever, every physically inclined Garchomp strategy just encounters a brick wall against Tusk: Rapid Spin fries hazard game, Bulk Up forces dtail or lose to setup. Of course, Garchomp can be paired with Ghost-types to try and invalidate Rapid Spin, but it's not as though any of them are fans of Knock Off. - If not at +2 Special Attack, can lose the one-on-one to full HP RegenVest.That was all of S and A rank. It should be pointed out that Great Tusk isn't unkillable. It can be statused, it's still vulnerable to [hazards] chip, etc. BUT, because it can find so many opportunities to switch in against foes, it can often recover most of your progress against it pretty easily unless you hit it with status. I've played plenty of games where my Great Tusk falls below half and is back at full for multiple Regenerator cycles in one battle.
Obviously, there are other sets (Scrappy, SoR, Armor Tail) each with their own specific niche, but Regen is far and away the most note/discussion-worthy.
When choosing to not use a Pokemon is worse than just building with it a majority of the time, there's a problem. No other Pokemon has the combined longevity, utility, bulk, and power that Great Tusk offers, and it shows in both its theoretical potential and actual usage. It's gotta go for sure. If you want more expanded reasoning, you can always ping me in the OM room or Discord :P
Last edited:
I agree with the conclusion the post above me makes (Great Tusk is uber ultra broken and should be quickbanned), but not the process. This is because I believe that Regen sets are pretty balanced. The high usage of those defensive sets is not because Regen sets are unbalanced although you could make a case for that, but rather because its the only Spinner in a gen where all the other Spinners either suck (Iron Treads) or only see usage to directly counter it (Brambleghast), as well as the fact that our only Defogger is Corvid and everything else is just an objective downgrade. Corvid + Great Tusk is SO good at keeping hazards off by just running a removal move on one of them, freeing up stuff like Ice Spinner on Great Tusk to laugh midgrounds, and Bulk Up on Corvid so Roost Dragonite doesn't end up PP stalling and you don't autolose to Bax anymore (side note: Bax is actually balanced but people aren't really running anti-setup counterplay so it looks broken + Shed Tail enables Bax to an absurd extent). Bulk Up sets are good cleaners but I feel like they struggle from needing multiple turns to be effective, and while Great Tusk certainly has the bulk to get those turns, it also wants to click other moves that hinder its ability to setup. Realistically the only times I've lost to a BU Great Tusk is either when I didn't prep for it or I gave it too many turns on a team that can effectively pressure it, so basically losing to BU Great Tusk is a skill issue imo. Regen sets are good and top tier for a reason but not broken like the post above says.
The real reason Tusk is broken is because of SoR Sub sets. Case in point:
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Ice Spinner
I'm not exactly sure how you're supposed to deal with a threat like this. You can't revenge it because it's behind a Sub, you can't play around it because it's behind a Sub + it hits like a truck, you can't break the Sub because Tusk has amazing natural bulk, and you can't switch into it because Ground + Fighting + Ice is unresisted coverage and Knock annoys switch-ins like no one's business. I guess there's Fluffy Corvid and Pixilate Scream Tail (only on a Fighting move), but most teams will lack ways of trying to handle this set outside of never giving it a free turn, and if your counterplay is never giving something a free turn in AAA, it's probably broken (Genesect last gen, Shed Tail HO, Gholdengo, etc). Theoretically, this needs a Sub up to be truly broken, but that's not particularly hard because Great Tusk has great bulk to begin with and pretty much everything this set comes in on does not want to stay in, so you can Sub up very easily on something like Fluffy Dondozo that doesn't want to die to Quake. And if not, you just kill them anyway because SoR Great Tusk is busted. With Gholdengo most likely leaving, it can now run Ice Spinner and fuck over the Flying-types that actually could come in on it like Dragonite, reducing its counterplay even more. So yeah Great Tusk busted, please ban. There is a case for a suspect considering it provides a substantial amount of defensive utility in the meta, moreso than Gholdengo does, but honestly I feel like that would be a waste of two weeks that could be spent tackling something equally stupid that has less defensive value, like Iron Moth.
The real reason Tusk is broken is because of SoR Sub sets. Case in point:
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Ice Spinner
I'm not exactly sure how you're supposed to deal with a threat like this. You can't revenge it because it's behind a Sub, you can't play around it because it's behind a Sub + it hits like a truck, you can't break the Sub because Tusk has amazing natural bulk, and you can't switch into it because Ground + Fighting + Ice is unresisted coverage and Knock annoys switch-ins like no one's business. I guess there's Fluffy Corvid and Pixilate Scream Tail (only on a Fighting move), but most teams will lack ways of trying to handle this set outside of never giving it a free turn, and if your counterplay is never giving something a free turn in AAA, it's probably broken (Genesect last gen, Shed Tail HO, Gholdengo, etc). Theoretically, this needs a Sub up to be truly broken, but that's not particularly hard because Great Tusk has great bulk to begin with and pretty much everything this set comes in on does not want to stay in, so you can Sub up very easily on something like Fluffy Dondozo that doesn't want to die to Quake. And if not, you just kill them anyway because SoR Great Tusk is busted. With Gholdengo most likely leaving, it can now run Ice Spinner and fuck over the Flying-types that actually could come in on it like Dragonite, reducing its counterplay even more. So yeah Great Tusk busted, please ban. There is a case for a suspect considering it provides a substantial amount of defensive utility in the meta, moreso than Gholdengo does, but honestly I feel like that would be a waste of two weeks that could be spent tackling something equally stupid that has less defensive value, like Iron Moth.
Isn't this entire set just unironically fried by Regen Tusk?I agree with the conclusion the post above me makes (Great Tusk is uber ultra broken and should be quickbanned), but not the process. This is because I believe that Regen sets are pretty balanced. The high usage of those defensive sets is not because Regen sets are unbalanced although you could make a case for that, but rather because its the only Spinner in a gen where all the other Spinners either suck (Iron Treads) or only see usage to directly counter it (Brambleghast), as well as the fact that our only Defogger is Corvid and everything else is just an objective downgrade. Corvid + Great Tusk is SO good at keeping hazards off by just running a removal move on one of them, freeing up stuff like Ice Spinner on Great Tusk to laugh midgrounds, and Bulk Up on Corvid so Roost Dragonite doesn't end up PP stalling and you don't autolose to Bax anymore (side note: Bax is actually balanced but people aren't really running anti-setup counterplay so it looks broken + Shed Tail enables Bax to an absurd extent). Bulk Up sets are good cleaners but I feel like they struggle from needing multiple turns to be effective, and while Great Tusk certainly has the bulk to get those turns, it also wants to click other moves that hinder its ability to setup. Realistically the only times I've lost to a BU Great Tusk is either when I didn't prep for it or I gave it too many turns on a team that can effectively pressure it, so basically losing to BU Great Tusk is a skill issue imo. Regen sets are good and top tier for a reason but not broken like the post above says.
The real reason Tusk is broken is because of SoR Sub sets. Case in point:
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Ice Spinner
I'm not exactly sure how you're supposed to deal with a threat like this. You can't revenge it because it's behind a Sub, you can't play around it because it's behind a Sub + it hits like a truck, you can't break the Sub because Tusk has amazing natural bulk, and you can't switch into it because Ground + Fighting + Ice is unresisted coverage and Knock annoys switch-ins like no one's business. I guess there's Fluffy Corvid and Pixilate Scream Tail (only on a Fighting move), but most teams will lack ways of trying to handle this set outside of never giving it a free turn, and if your counterplay is never giving something a free turn in AAA, it's probably broken (Genesect last gen, Shed Tail HO, Gholdengo, etc). Theoretically, this needs a Sub up to be truly broken, but that's not particularly hard because Great Tusk has great bulk to begin with and pretty much everything this set comes in on does not want to stay in, so you can Sub up very easily on something like Fluffy Dondozo that doesn't want to die to Quake. And if not, you just kill them anyway because SoR Great Tusk is busted. With Gholdengo most likely leaving, it can now run Ice Spinner and fuck over the Flying-types that actually could come in on it like Dragonite, reducing its counterplay even more. So yeah Great Tusk busted, please ban. There is a case for a suspect considering it provides a substantial amount of defensive utility in the meta, moreso than Gholdengo does, but honestly I feel like that would be a waste of two weeks that could be spent tackling something equally stupid that has less defensive value, like Iron Moth.
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 157-186 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 140-166 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 160-190 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
I'm not super clear on how this set is notably better than the alternative, which not only switches into the one you posted, but can switch out and come back to finish the job with minimal repercussion.
This is true but the thing is that you can also hide whether this set is Sub or Band by keeping hazards off, or by not even running Lefties and instead running something like Sitrus or Muscle Band. Now imagine a Great Tusk comes in on a mon it forces out and reveals it's SoR. Do you really want to go your switch-in, in this case Regen Tusk, and risk getting 2HKOed because it's Band and not Sub? This excludes even more possibilities like it being Adamant, it being TC/Adapt and not revealing that it's SoR and still doing around the same damage (in TC's case you switch on Quake for Headlong though), and it having TSpikes support having prepped for this and now your Tusk is taking constant damage AND just took 42 min from switching in. Even in the worst-case scenario it seems to me like Tusk can just break this over time rather than immediately with only a few tweaks to the set/minor support for teammates.