Abortion: The Thread

Made with permission by vonFiedler

I am here to start a conversation about abortion. I have my opinions on it but I choose not to share about it. So my opinion is that those little babies:v4:shouldnt die :blobastonished::v4:because they're so young:blobuwu:and cute:blobthumbsup:but im excited to hear ur opinions too


/uj

Generally the main point Pro life people do is point out that the Government considers unborn children to be alive according to an act passed in the late 1980s. They claim that "life begins at conception", and say that it is immoral, and goes against several religions. They believe that reproduction should not be taken lightly like that, like an 'oopsie'.

Some even say that abortions in cases of rape should be outlawed, too, because it isnt the child's fault.

People who are pro choice say that a woman should have choice over her own pregnancy. They also say that most of the people who are in charge of these decisions - old white men - have zero insight on the subject. They prove that fetuses are unable to feel pain regardless, and that it is sexist and classist

It is NOT a one sided majority issue unlike what the Democongs will tell you. Planned Parenthood is under constant protesting. Many religions condemn abortion. That is why i call every interested Smogoner to share their opinion on this matter.
 
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termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
the position that abortion is by definition wrong is completely indefensible without resorting to religious arguments. assuming we are all good little liberals (in the broader sense of the word, not in the american sense of the word) who support a secular state, such a position should never be entertained as far as laws are concerned. in order for a living entity to count morally, it must be capable of having interests. there is no indication that an embryo has interests in the first ~24 weeks of pregnancy because it has yet to acquire sentience. around that time one might begin to speak of a sentient being with some interest towards being alive, but it isn't a very strong claim and can be overridden in case the existence of the fetus seriously conflicts with the mother's interests (serious threats to her health etc).

as an "outsider" (i am not american), i always find it a bit vulgar that the abortion debate a major political conflict in american discourse. why is it that a good portion of americans (read: conservatives) have more to say about the value of the life of a clump of cells than over the value of lives of people whose countries are bombed and occupied by the US? or the lives of immigrants, african-americans, and homeless people, who are routinely locked up, killed by police, or simply "allowed to die" by a horribly unjust system? i guess OP inadvertently gives part of the explanation: babies are "young and cute" or, in other words, innocent, which makes it easy to sympathize with the basic idea that they have an inherent right to live. it becomes more difficult, of course, once they grow up and are thrown into a horribly imperfect world, in which they all become "sinners" in the christian world view. in other words, the american conservative may care about some imagined ideal of humanity, but isn't terribly interested in the lives of actual people.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
as an "outsider" (i am not american), i always find it a bit vulgar that the abortion debate a major political conflict in american discourse.
yeah even having a thread about it gives into the pretense that there is something worthwhile debating here, as if we should give into the men on these forums who feel the need to debate whether women should have rights over their bodies or not, even when the reality is the op is contentless baiting for the purposes of being entertained by a permanent fight in the thread. ive stated my positions on abortions in countless other threads which u can view in post history.
 
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yeah even having a thread about it gives into the pretense that there is something worthwhile debating here, as if we should give into the men on these forums who feel the need to debate whether women should have rights over their bodies or not, even when the reality is even the op is contentless baiting for the purposes of being entertained by a permanent fight in the thread. ive stated my positions on abortions in countless other threads which u can view in post history.
You're right.

And the fact that youve stated your positions on 'countless other threads' proves that there is a demand, or more bluntly, a necessity, for some kind of abortion thread.

So I'm presenting some arguments that rebuke your arguments. Of course these are not my opinions.

  • "Men shouldn't have a say in abortions because it is not their body."
When considering what is best for our society, we don’t just consider the views of those most directly impacted to the exclusion of all others. To do so would be an injustice, especially to those who are vulnerable.

I recently met a young man from an Ivy League University that started a pro-life group on his campus. I am always excited to see men take a proactive stand for the sanctity of life, so I thanked him for his leadership. And then I asked if there was a particular obstacle he faced where I could be helpful. Without hesitation, he told me the pro-choice folks on campus often tell him that since he cannot get pregnant and face the burden of an unplanned pregnancy, what he says or thinks about abortion does not matter.

As a man who is president of Care Net — one of the nation’s largest networks of pregnancy centers that offers women compassion, hope and help, as well as realistic alternatives to abortion — I have heard this challenge to men so often that I have coined it the “no womb/no say” perspective. In short, since a man does not have a womb to carry an unborn child, he should have no say in what happens to an unborn child in the womb.

Now, without analysis, this may seem to make sense. And, as a result, too many men have let this argument be the kryptonite that keeps them from getting involved in the pro-life movement as equal partners with women. However, when you really consider the underlying principle of this line of thinking, it quickly becomes clear that it may be a good “sound bite,” but it is clearly not “sound logic.”

That said, before I deal with the logic aspect, I would be remiss if I did not address the fact that those who use this argument are being disingenuous. A few years ago, the pro-choice movement started a very aggressive initiative to get men to support abortion rights. This effort challenged men to be “Bro-Choice” and even take a pledge.

Note what Unite for Reproductive & Gender Equity (URGE), a major proponent of this campaign, says on its website: “Pro-choice men can be a powerful force in helping move our policy agenda forward, which is exactly why URGE leads the way in recruiting and elevating their voices within this movement. By building a network of outspoken, actively engaged men, we are building the power necessary to move policy and win on our issues.”

After reading URGE’s perspective, I was reminded of the old quip, “When I want your opinion, I will give it to you!” It also reminded of a bumper sticker I saw a few years ago on the car of a pro-choice woman. It said, “I don’t want my reproductive rights decided by a bunch of grey-haired white guys!” Of course, this woman missed the irony that abortion was made legal by a group of those guys: the Supreme Court in 1973. If old white guys can’t get it right now, isn’t it possible that they got it wrong then? In any case, for the “Bro Choice” advocates, it’s perfectly fine and even required for men to engage in the abortion debate — as long as they come down on the “right” side.

Now, the “no womb/no say” perspective is also very problematic when you consider it through the lens of logic. Essentially, the principle underlying the view is this: Unless one is impacted by an issue or action in the most direct way, one should have no agency in making decisions about that issue or action.

So let’s consider a few situations.
Should a woman who is a stay-at-home mom and, therefore, makes no income outside the home, have a say on tax policy? After all, she doesn’t directly pay taxes for an income. Or, should someone who does not own a gun or has never been injured by a gun have a say in what our nation’s gun law should be? Again, a non-gun owner is not going to be directly impacted if the access to guns is limited.

And, when you consider this perspective in light of our nation’s history, it’s especially troubling. For example, consider the Civil War. The South was primarily an agrarian society that, in large measure, was structured and directly dependent on slave labor. Indeed, a key aspect of the South’s “states’ rights” argument was that since the North’s society and economic system would not be as directly impacted by the abolition of slavery, the North should have no say. Indeed, “no slaves/no say” was the South’s proverbial battle cry.

Also consider the issue of voting rights in the United States. From our nation’s founding, voting rights were limited to property owning or tax paying white males, who were about 6 percent of the population. So the notion was “no property/no say.” And even when voting rights were extended to other men, women were excluded. Why? Because the view held by many men was that women were not and should not be as directly involved in the economic and civil aspect of American society as men. Consequently, these men held a “womb/no say” perspective when it came to voting rights. Well, the Women’s Suffrage movement challenged this perspective, and in 1920, with the passage of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution, women were given the right to vote … by men.

You see, in all of the above examples, we have rightly rejected the principle that undergirds the “no womb/no say” perspective. Why? Because when considering what is best for our society, we don’t just consider the views of those most directly impacted to the exclusion of all others. To do so would be an injustice, especially to those who are vulnerable.

Rather, we give an equal say and even encourage the voices of those who are affected, even if only indirectly. Indeed, a stay-at-home mom is affected by tax policy, so she has an equal right and is encouraged to vote. Our nation's gun laws affect the safety of the communities where the non-gun owners live and raise their children, so they must have an equal say in the laws that are enacted. The moral stain and injustice of slavery affected those in the North, so they had agency and an obligation to fight a bloody war to eliminate it. The laws that were passed in this nation affected women’s rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so it was an injustice to deny them the right to vote.

Accordingly, when an unborn child is killed in the womb, especially if it is his child, it deeply affects a man. So, doesn’t it make sense for him to have a say, too?
  • "Theres nothing worth debating here."
Americans have been equally divided on the issue; a May 2018 Gallup poll indicated that 48% of Americans described themselves as pro-choice and 48% described themselves as pro-life. A July 2018 poll indicated that 64% of Americans did not want the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs. Wade, while 28% did.The same poll found that support for abortion being generally legal was 60% during the first trimester, dropping to 28% in the second trimester, and 13% in the third trimester.

So no, its not like public opinion is skewed towards one way at all.
Rebuke these pls or the conversatives win by default
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Rebuke these pls or the conversatives win by default
if by "win" you mean that they "win the debate" on some philosophical level, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this is the case. if by "win" you mean winning in the political sense, i.e. having your will carried out by those in power, the appropriate response of those who are pro-abortion is not to engage in "debate" with a bunch of conservatives they cannot hope to "convince" anyhow. the appropriate response to anti-abortionists in the political sense is to build a coalition that can defeat them and change abortion laws. it is a question of power, not a question of "having the winning argument" or what have you
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I mean honestly what could go wrong

the main problem I see with your argument termi is that you’re basically just ascribing personhood to those with ‘interests’. Does that mean you don’t ascribe personhood to those in a permanent coma, thus unable to have interests? I don’t buy your definition of what a person is so the rest of your argument kind of falls apart.

In all honesty I think the best argument for abortion, and one I generally subscribe to with reservations, is that you have the right to complete autonomy over your own body, even at the expense of the lives of others. In a weird and ironic twist the ‘stand your ground’ law that conservatives love is also applicable in this case. If another person is in your space without your consent when you’ve not committed a crime (obviously the police have the right to arrest you if you do), then you have the right to commit violence upon that person to get them out of your space. I do believe that if men could get pregnant abortion would just be accepted as an unfortunate but necessary part of life, rather than the main crux of political disagreement and animus in the United States.

Personally I do oppose abortion after 24 weeks though, except in special circumstances that most discussing this should be familiar with (incest, rape, and health of the mother - though I would add exemptions for situations in which women were intimidated or forcibly disallowed from having an abortion until this point as well). This is because I think that after 24 weeks, you’ve made a decision by not aborting the child and that you no longer have the right to kill the child.

A neat little thought experiment for men to consider on this is the following. Imagine that you were kidnapped by a society dedicated to the protection of talented violinists, and wake up in the hospital hooked up to some random middle schooler. You’re told by the doctor that the middle schooler was also kidnapped because he or she is a talented violinist with a terrible medical condition that requires continuous blood transfusions and other nutrients from another’s body for a period of nine months in order to survive.

Do you have the right to pull the plug? I would argue that at first you certainly do, even though the violinist, through no fault of his or her own, will die. I’d also argue, however, that it is the heroic thing to do (heroic meaning should not be expected by society nor the law, and should not ever be pressed upon people as though it is expectation) to not pull the plug, and that if you do not pull the plug for months and months on end, then at some point you’ve implicitly agreed to save the other person’s life.
 
Welp, here we go. The Amazonian Rainforest good idea making this btw, this topic has come up numerous times in the various political threads, I just thought the mods would never approve this because this especially is a very fiery issue that could lead to cancer posting. I'll put in my two sense though, because why the hell not. I think it's obvious by now that I am very pro-life, but let me explain my position a bit better to ease things later.
  • I do believe from a personal standpoint that life begins at conception, because I think it's objectively the clearest line you can draw. For instance, if you base life off of sentience, what about those in comas with the potential of waking up? Are they no longer considered alive? I would like to think not there. The same goes for basing life off of heartbeat. I think that's a much stronger argument, but those in cardiac arrest or those whose hearts have stopped can be resuscitated if action is taken quickly. I will acknowledge it is a good indicator of death though, so this one I'm a little warmer to and I'm a bit more open to negotiation on that basis (the heartbeat tends to begin at 5 weeks into gestation for reference). My point here, to make objective sense, the definition of life has to apply to everyone, not just fetuses.
  • A fetus is not simply a clump of cells. If left to its own devices, a fetus will develop into a fully-grown human baby. It's not rocket science. That "clump of cells" is additionally not the woman's body. That fetus scientifically has a completely different set of DNA that proves that it is a different person. I feel the "controlling of women's bodies" is a dumb argument because no one wants to control women's bodies, we simply don't want you to kill babies.
  • I personally believe you do not lose out on choice if you take away abortion. You have three: Abstinence, Birth Control/Contraception, or Parenthood/Adoption. All of these do not resort to a baby being killed (although the day after pill is an interesting topic that I'd be willing to debate).
  • I can give plenty of credence to the rape argument (and of course if the mother's life is in danger/there was a miscarriage). That is an instance where the mother did not have control to have sex/have a baby, however I do believe it is still a human life. That I can compromise is up to the discretion of the mother on the basis of not having control (I will gladly however look up to anyone strong enough to give that child the best life they possibly can, because I know how tough that is). I think it is very ignorant to apply that as the norm to all abortion cases, however, as that is only ~1% of all cases.
  • On that note, you do have control when you decide to have sex. More times than not, it is completely consensual (besides rape, which I gave my take on already). That being said, a babies life should not be taken for a mistake you made, I think that is highly immoral and selfish. When you have sex, no matter what you will always run some chance of becoming pregnant, even with birth control. When you have sex, you acknowledge that chance and decide whether to risk it or not, no matter how minute the chance. The only foolproof way to not get pregnant is abstinence. A baby does not just pop up randomly. If a pregnancy occurs, that is your fault in the cases of consensual sex, and in my opinion, some else's life should not be taken for a mistake you made.
  • If a botched abortion occurs and the baby lives, I firmly believe especially by that point that there should be an attempt to keep it alive.
  • It should also be a given that I completely oppose abortions being covered by our tax dollars. It's your responsibility, other people should not be paying for your mistake. This position also clumps in with my opposition to government funding to Planned Parenthood. And before y'all yell at me about someone who was raped, that is where you have the absolute right to sue from the behalf of the state to cover the costs, because rape is a crime. (Sidenote: I do completely support rapists being castrated, put to death and plainly being sentenced to the worst possible sentences available).
  • From a law perspective, I do fully support the repeal of Roe v. Wade. I believe that the court should not make law, that is the legislative's job. The court's job is to review laws and deem whether they're constitutional or not, and I believe in this case that is not what happened. I also believe it was created on very thin footing using the 14th amendment. Nowhere does it say a right to choose, it simply states a right to privacy.
  • Following the previous point, nowhere in the constitution does it mention a right to abortions specifically or the taking away of life (other than murder, but I'll explain more in detail below that life isn't explicitly defined), and my opinion on that basis is that anything not explicitly mentioned in the constitution is considered up to the discretion of the states. For instance if Roe v. Wade was repealed right now, states like California can keep their abortion up until birth policies, but other states like Georgia have the right to outlaw abortions. If you don't like it, you can move to another state. This is the position that I believe is the most likely and I can compromise to agreement there.
  • On a broader scale, I do believe in outlawing abortion outright because it takes away the freedom of people to live, however I understand in order to do so that'll require a constitutional amendment defining personhood/life, which I highly doubt would attain a 2/3s majority in Congress.
That's my general position, have at it.

the position that abortion is by definition wrong is completely indefensible without resorting to religious arguments. assuming we are all good little liberals (in the broader sense of the word, not in the american sense of the word) who support a secular state, such a position should never be entertained as far as laws are concerned. in order for a living entity to count morally, it must be capable of having interests. there is no indication that an embryo has interests in the first ~24 weeks of pregnancy because it has yet to acquire sentience. around that time one might begin to speak of a sentient being with some interest towards being alive, but it isn't a very strong claim and can be overridden in case the existence of the fetus seriously conflicts with the mother's interests (serious threats to her health etc).

as an "outsider" (i am not american), i always find it a bit vulgar that the abortion debate a major political conflict in american discourse. why is it that a good portion of americans (read: conservatives) have more to say about the value of the life of a clump of cells than over the value of lives of people whose countries are bombed and occupied by the US? or the lives of immigrants, african-americans, and homeless people, who are routinely locked up, killed by police, or simply "allowed to die" by a horribly unjust system? i guess OP inadvertently gives part of the explanation: babies are "young and cute" or, in other words, innocent, which makes it easy to sympathize with the basic idea that they have an inherent right to live. it becomes more difficult, of course, once they grow up and are thrown into a horribly imperfect world, in which they all become "sinners" in the christian world view. in other words, the american conservative may care about some imagined ideal of humanity, but isn't terribly interested in the lives of actual people.
I think you'll be very happy to know that never once debating abortion on this forum have I resorted to religious arguments, nor do I plan to now, so let's get started. I agree completely with UncleSam that a person should have interests is an unbelievably flawed argument. I addressed the sentience argument in my opening remarks, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

To address your second paragraph, you're completely incorrect. Many conservatives do value the life of those who are living in terrorist states and have to deal with the scare of being bombed day by day. We may have different solutions than you, but that does not mean we do not care. I do think the topic of life applies to this thread, so mods I hope I'm ok to respond to that topic. If you haven't realized, Trump has been trying to work with nations like North Korea (albeit I'll admit I do think he should be a lot tougher on them, I disagree with his approach) who violate basic human right laws. The same goes for Iran believe it or not, I agree with him there that we really shouldn't be funding terrorists.

As for the lives of immigrants, African Americans, and homeless people, that is a completely strawmanned argument and goes to show your narrow-minded view of conservatives. To address the first two, conservatives don't like to focus on race period, we consider anyone with American citizenship American above all else and be afforded the same liberties and rights as everyone else. I would hope we are in agreement there. As for the homeless, maybe we don't think using taxpayer money to create "projects" is a good solution? I fully support the works of charities, shelters, and the creation of public works job programs (or really any job facilitation program). I'm gonna put it lightly, on many of these issues your bringing up, you have a very flawed view of what conservatives believe. Just because we may think your solutions are inefficient/don't work doesn't mean that we don't take legitimate concern with these issues. There are some issues, however, that conservatives believe are overblown by leftists, for example police brutality (which I do not want to derail this thread bringing that up, I'm simply mentioning that topic to clear some of this conservative view nonsense up). My point is, we have morality. There are plenty of issues like abortion that if I was to take your line of thinking, I would think y'all don't care/are completely immoral, and treat you as such. I don't think that because I understand the main intent of this issue for you guys is to support women, even if we may disagree on what that entails. I acknowledge the intent, and in some aspects, respect that.
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
You're right.



  • "Men shouldn't have a say in abortions because it is not their body."


  • "Theres nothing worth debating here."
why not accuse me of being emotional too? since ur already strawmaning my arguments and trying to use double speak to make this topic seem somehow important

i never said that men shouldn't have a say in this debate, I said women's rights shouldn't be given a platform to be debated on these forums. That means I actually think even women of these forums such as myself, perhaps especially the women of these forums, will benefit from not having this debate too, just as the men will benefit from the demonstration by example that this issue is not up for debate in a secular setting. To have debates like this is an indication that we'll soon be having threads to hash out if racism against white ppl is real or whether the civil war was about states rights, whether ethnic cleansing is justified in state-building. It's 2020 and it's sad to still be having the same debates that have been substantively over for decades if not centuries. every time a conservative says dumb things is not a good enough reason to have a separate thread for them to try to use pragger u videos to justify some lame position they feel the need to regurgitate on this forums.

you dont care about substance tho, only controversy, notice how in your op you state that 'this is not a one side majority issue because people are divided on it' but the mere existence of divided opinion says nothing about whether the controversy is merited at all. This debate is valuable to you only because you feel it might bring entertainment to you or others, and I think thats a poor reason for others to engage with this thread, and that the topic should not be quarantined into this thread as I worry it may be if abortion discussion is taken up in other threads again. Directing users in a thread to move on from the topic of abortion after a certain point is entirely appropriate on my view, mainly because it is fine to have a quick discussion, but there is no serious reason for the topic and it should not derail threads as much as possible.
 
why not accuse me of being emotional too? since ur already strawmaning my arguments and trying to use double speak to make this topic seem somehow important

i never said that men shouldn't have a say in this debate, I said women's rights shouldn't be given a platform to be debated on these forums. That means I actually think even women of these forums such as myself, perhaps especially the women of these forums, will benefit from not having this debate too, just as the men will benefit from the demonstration by example that this issue is not up for debate in a secular setting. To have debates like this is an indication that we'll soon be having threads to hash out if racism against white ppl is real or whether the civil war was about states rights, whether ethnic cleansing is justified in state-building. It's 2020 and it's sad to still be having the same debates that have been substantively over for decades if not centuries. every time a conservative says dumb things is not a good enough reason to have a separate thread for them to try to use pragger u videos to justify some lame position they feel the need to regurgitate on this forums.

you dont care about substance tho, only controversy, notice how in your op you state that 'this is not a one side majority issue because people are divided on it' but the mere existence of divided opinion says nothing about whether the controversy is merited at all. This debate is valuable to you only because you feel it might bring entertainment to you or others, and I think thats a poor reason for others to engage with this thread, and that the topic should not be quarantined into this thread as I worry it may be if abortion discussion is taken up in other threads again. Directing users in a thread to move on from the topic of abortion after a certain point is entirely appropriate on my view, mainly because it is fine to have a quick discussion, but there is no serious reason for the topic and it should not derail threads as much as possible.
You're more than welcome to read his first response on how he outlined that this is still a very divided issues any time. And by divided issue, I mean as to whether this applies to women's rights or the right for babies to not be killed. He just outlined that abortion is still highly contested, and that it has every right to be respectfully discussed and debated.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
the main problem I see with your argument termi is that you’re basically just ascribing personhood to those with ‘interests’. Does that mean you don’t ascribe personhood to those in a permanent coma, thus unable to have interests? I don’t buy your definition of what a person is so the rest of your argument kind of falls apart.
to amend what i said: personhood is a complicated term and having interests in-the-moment is not the only way to assess someone's personhood. the capacity to have interests is simply the most minimal way in which one could be said to be a person with an inherent interest in living, and since that capacity is clearly missing in a prenatal human during the earlier stages of its development (since it lacks sentience), the idea that abortion is murder makes no sense. the only way you can still consider it wrong is by stating that it is not the killing of a person but the taking of a life in and of itself that is wrong, but then you either have to concede that we are literally committing murders all the time (animal lives (btw killing certain kinds of animals is murder in my view but thats for another thread), plant life, bacteria, amoebae, etc etc) or put human life in particular in a privileged position (independent of humans' capacity for self-awareness), for which there is no serious non-religious moral argument.

Dece1t i am representing american conservativism based on the actual results of conservative politics, which largely means more starvation, more homelessness, more police brutality, more mass incarceration, more bombs, more xenophobia, etc. maybe that's not what the average conservative wants to happen but the reality of conservative politics speaks louder than whatever intentions you may have.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
He just outlined that abortion is still highly contested, and that it has every right to be respectfully discussed and debated.
there is nothing respectful abt your completely false assertions at every step of the way of these discussions. from fake sources to claims like 'a fetus can survive all by itself' (completely false) there is no reason to engage with it other than to waste my own time
 
Surprised this is still even a debate in 2020.

Signed,

Someone in a blue state where this hasn't been a discussion since 2008. Viva la Massachusetts!
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Criminalising abortion is ridiculous for a few reasons, but the main one is that it's justified using incommensurate counter-arguments that one person can't actually believe all of at the same time validly. Take this bullet point, for instance:
  • I do believe from a personal standpoint that life begins at conception, because I think it's objectively the clearest line you can draw. For instance, if you base life off of sentience, what about those in comas with the potential of waking up? Are they no longer considered alive? I would like to think not there. The same goes for basing life off of heartbeat. I think that's a much stronger argument, but those in cardiac arrest or those whose hearts have stopped can be resuscitated if action is taken quickly. I will acknowledge it is a good indicator of death though, so this one I'm a little warmer to and I'm a bit more open to negotiation on that basis (the heartbeat tends to begin at 5 weeks into gestation for reference). My point here, to make objective sense, the definition of life has to apply to everyone, not just fetuses.
Perhaps all of this is valid -- I think "when does life begin" is a wholely metaphysical question with no phenomenal significance so I haven't bothered making a decision on it. However, all of this is valid only when discussing when life begins for any animal. Using this definition there is no distinction between a foetus and a cow, chicken or even clam, because all 4 of those are conceived and all 4 of those have life. That means that in order to be pro-life, you also have to support the outlawing of murdering any animal and advocating for compulsory veganism for the whole country. For any pro-lifer who doesn't do this, they have to identify what's different about humans that makes it OK to kill animals and not themselves, and then demonstrate that foetuses have that same distinction. So far I have not seen anyone do this successfully.
  • A fetus is not simply a clump of cells. If left to its own devices, a fetus will develop into a fully-grown human baby. It's not rocket science. That "clump of cells" is additionally not the woman's body. That fetus scientifically has a completely different set of DNA that proves that it is a different person. I feel the "controlling of women's bodies" is a dumb argument because no one wants to control women's bodies, we simply don't want you to kill babies.
Then, notice how immediately in the next bullet point it's qualified by specifying "a foetus will develop into a fully-grown human baby ... [therefore it] is not simply a clump of cells". Suddenly the distinction that humans are more valuable than animals is asserted but no justification is made. It's a leap in logic that undermines the entire argument because it shows that there isn't actually a principle at play.

Since the argument isn't rational there's no point entertaining it. Unless someone counter-argues this by justifying what needs to be justified, this is a wasted thread that'll regress into Christianity vs Non-Christianity.

Perhaps it'll be interesting and it'll instead regress into the role of the state over people's lives and the dichotomy between real conservatives who are trying to bring society back to Mill's Harm Principle, one of the founding principles of liberalism, and radicals who call themselves conservatives to be appealing while trying to make huge changes such as prioritising religion over liberalism. It's a little tough for me to sympathise because I live in a secular country with an uncodified constitution (UK) which means I'm used to a much greater level of democracy and much more capacity for radical change than America has, but the way that ideology is so different in each place is interesting if nothing else. No liberal government would be pro-life because having an abortion doesn't harm someone else -- but no liberal government would be anti-drugs because using drugs doesn't harm others either, so in reality neither the UK nor USA are liberal and it's just a buzz word used to make people think they're following something with ideological virtue.

Abortion has been offered on the NHS in the UK since 1968. America is 3 generations behind us on this issue. It's not even a matter for discourse here: you either are fine with abortions and think they're healthy for society, or you wouldn't have an abortion personally but respect others' right to have one. That's liberalism.
 
Surprised this is still even a debate in 2020.

Signed,

Someone in a blue state where this hasn't been a discussion since 2008. Viva la Massachusetts!
My opinion is ambiguous on this subject but did you not hear about how Cheeta Nibba is like trying to ban abortion? This is precisely what I meant about the divided issue. It is. There are a shit ton of ppl who disagree with your view. They just arent on Cong.

So, for better or for worse there is a debate on abortion. This isnt like antivax where there is literally no coherent argument for it. I personally am pro choice but I 100% understand the reasoning of why people would be upset by abortion. It's not fucking rocket science to see why people arent for the termination of pregnancies ESPECIALLY when multiple religions have explicitly condemned it.
 
to amend what i said: personhood is a complicated term and having interests in-the-moment is not the only way to assess someone's personhood. the capacity to have interests is simply the most minimal way in which one could be said to be a person with an inherent interest in living, and since that capacity is clearly missing in a prenatal human during the earlier stages of its development (since it lacks sentience), the idea that abortion is murder makes no sense. the only way you can still consider it wrong is by stating that it is not the killing of a person but the taking of a life in and of itself that is wrong, but then you either have to concede that we are literally committing murders all the time (animal lives (btw killing certain kinds of animals is murder in my view but thats for another thread), plant life, bacteria, amoebae, etc etc) or put human life in particular in a privileged position (independent of humans' capacity for self-awareness), for which there is no serious non-religious moral argument.
I mean in reference to your last sentence, I just wrote up a giant post of credible reasons without once citing religion, but if you seriously want to keep thinking that way please, by all means. I also debunked sentience, but sure I'll delve a little further. Let's go with the coma argument I gave since you aren't sentient when you're in a coma, and therefore by your definition dead. Can I stab you then and not get in trouble? Shoot you? Anything that would kill you if you were still alive? I would hope to God that I shouldn't be able to, no because there is a chance of you coming out of it. I would consider you still alive. As for your view of killing animals for foods and other products is murder, yes in a sense I suppose I would concede that. However, our constitution applies primarily to people, not animals, to put it short. You're right in that that is another topic for another thread, so I won't say more on that topic.

Dece1t i am representing american conservativism based on the actual results of conservative politics, which largely means more starvation, more homelessness, more police brutality, more mass incarceration, more bombs, more xenophobia, etc. maybe that's not what the average conservative wants to happen but the reality of conservative politics speaks louder than whatever intentions you may have.
This is the last time I am responding to this because this does not have to do with lives or abortions at this point, and I don't want to derail. I'm only responding because you're calling me out.

I'm very surprised to see you think that way, given in American we have arguably the most conservative government and presidency at the moment in modern history under Trump. There's less homelessness and unemployment and an addressing of "mass incarceration" (you didn't exactly define what that entails) by lessening certain drug-related sentences and focusing a lot more on rehabilitation in prisons (although from a personal standpoint, some crimes in my opinion is way too heinous to not be punished harshly, like rape). More police brutality and xenophobia you'd have to prove that one at a different time. My point is, America is arguably the most successful its ever been, and the conservative government has reaped extremely positive results with the boom of the economy (and before you say that was from Obama's economy, 1. It's been 3 almost 4 years into the Trump presidency, and 2. Obama had one of the slowest economic recoveries since the Great Depression) and the historic unemployment. ISIS has been virtually destroyed, and there's actually work to improve relations with North Korea (although I will stress again I don't love Trump's handling, but I'll acknowledge its progress that we haven't had nonetheless).

im surprised ppl are actually replying to someone that thinks if u stick a fetus in a petri dish it would develop into a human being in 9 months
Never once did I say that. You're gonna have to quote me. Are you going to contribute to the discussion at any point? You're more than welcome, I'm down to discuss the issue with you.

Criminalising abortion is ridiculous for a few reasons, but the main one is that it's justified using incommensurate counter-arguments that one person can't actually believe all of at the same time validly. Take this bullet point, for instance:

Perhaps all of this is valid -- I think "when does life begin" is a wholely metaphysical question with no phenomenal significance so I haven't bothered making a decision on it. However, all of this is valid only when discussing when life begins for any animal. Using this definition there is no distinction between a foetus and a cow, chicken or even clam, because all 4 of those are conceived and all 4 of those have life. That means that in order to be pro-life, you also have to support the outlawing of murdering any animal and advocating for compulsory veganism for the whole country. For any pro-lifer who doesn't do this, they have to identify what's different about humans that makes it OK to kill animals and not themselves, and then demonstrate that foetuses have that same distinction. So far I have not seen anyone do this successfully.
I addressed this in Termi's reply. Yes, all of the examples you gave are a life by that point. Generally speaking, I believe human life is inherently valuable, and our constitution applies to humans. I'll also presume you've had your fair share of meat, I didn't think I would need to entertain the argument as to why human's are a superior species because it is starting to derail from the abortion topic a bit. We also rely on the proteins from animals as a means to stay healthy, many are a bit different than plant proteins. You can look at our skyscrapers, Greek Philosophy, just a couple examples of what humans have attributed to this world out of tens of millions of things. We eat animals for food, because it has sustained us for millions of years.

Then, notice how immediately in the next bullet point it's qualified by specifying "a foetus will develop into a fully-grown human baby ... [therefore it] is not simply a clump of cells". Suddenly the distinction that humans are more valuable than animals is asserted but no justification is made. It's a leap in logic that undermines the entire argument because it shows that there isn't actually a principle at play.
Does it though? We are talking about humans not killing other humans.

Since the argument isn't rational there's no point entertaining it. Unless someone counter-argues this by justifying what needs to be justified, this is a wasted thread that'll regress into Christianity vs Non-Christianity.
I mean I'm sorry you feel that way, you're definitely entertaining it since you just replied to me. I'm gonna stress once again, I have not brought up religion once in any of my arguments, so y'all need to stop saying that its unnecessary and off-topic.

Perhaps it'll be interesting and it'll instead regress into the role of the state over people's lives and the dichotomy between real conservatives who are trying to bring society back to Mill's Harm Principle, one of the founding principles of liberalism, and radicals who call themselves conservatives to be appealing while trying to make huge changes such as prioritising religion over liberalism. It's a little tough for me to sympathise because I live in a secular country with an uncodified constitution (UK) which means I'm used to a much greater level of democracy and much more capacity for radical change than America has, but the way that ideology is so different in each place is interesting if nothing else. No liberal government would be pro-life because having an abortion doesn't harm someone else -- but no liberal government would be anti-drugs because using drugs doesn't harm others either, so in reality neither the UK nor USA are liberal and it's just a buzz word used to make people think they're following something with ideological virtue.

Abortion has been offered on the NHS in the UK since 1968. America is 3 generations behind us on this issue. It's not even a matter for discourse here: you either are fine with abortions and think they're healthy for society, or you wouldn't have an abortion personally but respect others' right to have one. That's liberalism.
The US was built on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and the belief that all men are created equal in one nation under God (this is not me devolving the issue into Christian vs. Non-Christian, I'm stating the fact of what the US was historically built on). We believe rights proceed the government, there are inalienable human rights that aren't created by the government, only enforced. That's a big issue where liberalism and conservatism differ. You can be secular, however, and believe that killing other humans in any case is harming someone else, but you refuse to look at fetuses as human. My first sentence is to outline where many of the morals from our society came from, but there is an equal respect and an equality of rights for the non-religious--that's the beauty of American, you have the right to live how you want to live. However, you do not have the right to kill someone else. The point of this debate is to outline whether a fetus is considered that "someone else," which many including myself have evidence to believe they are.

Sorry, I'm not for anyone being killed. Plain and simple man.
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Never once did I say that. You're gonna have to quote me. Are you going to contribute to the discussion at any point? You're more than welcome, I'm down to discuss the issue with you.
  • A fetus is not simply a clump of cells. If left to its own devices, a fetus will develop into a fully-grown human baby. It's not rocket science.
 
cant even remember what u write while ur bsing a thread but u talk to others about respect and civil engagement, shameful
A fetus, left to its own devices in the womb or in an artificial womb in a hospital or lab. I am SO sorry for not specifying that, I didn't think I seriously needed to do that for you people. Never once did I say petri dish. If you seriously took that from "left to its own devices," you are an honest idiot.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
so if left to the devices of a woman forced or choosing to be an incubator it will develop into a human is what u mean to say. the key here is that you completely dodge the fact that pregnancy has permanent effects on your body and your life is put on hold while ur forced to incubate the fetus. the fetus would die without your body as a host. it's like our whole move here is just to ignore the effects on women, going so far as to pretend they don't exist either way. you think women shouldnt have a right to make decisions about their own bodies or their future life, this is needless to say a condemnable view.

ps theres no such thing as artificial wombs orch, i mean deceit, so again these daydreams are just a cover for an agenda to hold women's bodies as property of the state.
 
baby is not mother's body and this is a scientific fact. if your argument is that fetus don't have human rights due to lack of agency, then severely disabled and vegetable people don't have rights too. yet, it's curious that these rights are only magically granted the moment baby leaves women's womb. is it okay to kill mentally impaired cojoined people who are dependent on other people since they're inside eachothers? i don't think so.

imo, abortion should be allowed to placate the masses until we have sufficiently advanced technology to rescue the babies in the womb. likewise, i support the funding of infrastructure and supply chain (planned parenthood) to make the eventual transition from abortion to rescuing people in the womb. i think that the moment when it is possible to rescue babies, then abortion is absolutely indefensible from the pragmatic viewpoint and should be considered as murder.
 
so if left to the devices of a woman forced or choosing to be an incubator it will develop into a human is what u mean to say. the key here is that you completely dodge the fact that pregnancy has permanent effects on your body and your life is put on hold while ur forced to incubate the fetus. the fetus would die without your body as a host. it's like our whole move here is just to ignore the effects on women, going so far as to pretend they don't exist either way. you think women shouldnt have a right to make decisions about their own bodies or their future life, this is needless to say a condemnable view.
That goes back to the argument of control. If you choose to have sex, then you run the risk of creating a baby. The baby is still a human life, you have no right to kill it at that point. That's the pro-life view. I'll repeat again, you can stay abstinent until you're ready to have a baby, use birth control/contraceptives (both of which do still run an oftentimes very small chance of failing), or be ready to be a parent/adopt it to a loving family who will gladly give them a good life. It's not that difficult to understand basic biology, sex is a means to create life. That's what it is primarily for. If you want to go around and have sex for pleasure, that is your right, but if a new human life is created, you do not have the right to kill it. That is your fault, not the baby's.
 
ps theres no such thing as artificial wombs orch, i mean deceit, so again these daydreams are just a cover for an agenda to hold women's bodies as property of the state.
we're getting there.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05586-z

In two papers published in May 2016, Zernicka-Goetz’s team1 and Ali Brivanlou’s group2 at the Rockefeller University in New York City reported the first culture systems that could grow human embryos for 12–13 days. The researchers showed that with the right cocktail of growth factors and nourishment, human embryos in culture can ‘implant’ onto the bottom of the dish.
 
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