A proposal concerning UU pokemon who become OU

[Joatmon]

Currently with playtesting in the UU ladder, people are looking for what is too strong in UU, which are mainly the top UUs as well as pokemon who go down into UU from the OU tier. My main concern is what happens when a UU pokemon goes up from UU to OU through usage alone, skipping the BL Tier.

The main problem I have is that the usage based system alone does not reflect the power of a pokemon in a lower tier. For example, let us say that one month, Porygon2 is used in UU rather frequently, but general consensus in the community is that it is nowhere near BL status for the tier. The next month, Porygon2 is used quite frequently in OU, enough to scrape the OU list, therefore banning it from UU to OU. In this situation, I wonder how overall power or viability in a higher tier affects the power and status or a pokemon in another lower tier. If the pokemon is not overpowered in UU, then I believe it should be allowed in UU still.

This, of course, provides the problem that Smogon's Tiering system is heavily based upon Usage. I believe the system works well, but also that in this circumstance of UU pokemon becoming OU rather than BL there is some fallacy. If the system were to change to encorporate these UU pokemon, the change would not be radical, I believe. There would essentially be rather few of these cases in which a UU pokemon becomes OU (or even NU to UU, but without a NU tier at the moment that point is rather moot), but enough to change the banning of certain pokemon. To make judgement on those Pokemon, I propose the following:

When a UU pokemon becomes OU, they are marked for testing in UU as a "special case" Pokemon, or whatever term you may see fit. These special cases would be analyzed through UU playtesting as Shaymin, Mismagius, and so on are currently being done so, as if they are being considered for BL. This testing would go on as it presently does, but the end result differs.

If it is marked by the community as a "BL" pokemon, then it would simply become OU. If it were to drop from OU, the process of UU playtesting would begin again as normal, as likely at that point changes in the metagame would be present (i.e. different pokemon are BL).

If it is not marked by the community as a "BL" pokemon, then it would retain its status as a special-case UU as well as OU until the community deems it BL, in which case it would become a regular OU pokemon.

In other words, the current Tiering system presently bans pokemon on the following criteria; either Usage or Power. What I propose is that, while both are used as criteria, Power must be present at all times to be bumped up into another tier. I thoroughly believe that a larger emphasis on power in the tiering system will have a beneficial effect on it and more accurately present the metagame, even if by a small amount.

I am not asking for any of my proposals to be taken in to effect immediately, as I know that my thoughts are only but one opinion of many users here on Smogon, and I know many users may disagree with my saying that the tiering system is fine with it is, and that it would be too much of a hassle, but I also know that some users may have the same sentiments that I do concerning the tiering system, and that if we work together as community we could improve our standards.

Please note that I do not have a lot of experience with the UU ladder, and my proposal is more for protocol if anything. If any more experienced players have opinion on this, both good and bad, please share them, as if you oppose this, I would like to know why my thoughts would be opposing the majority. Also, I won't contest a locking of this thread should a Moderator feel that this is too radical, but I have read the rules and I do not feel that there is a problem with this thread. Thank you for your time and reading my whole proposition.

 

[Caelum]

This isn't really appropriate for this forum, but I'll leave this open and not move it to Policy Review since I have no idea if you have PR access and I'm not going to prevent you from responding to your own topic lol.

This goes to the very heart of our tiering system methods. We've used usage since the beginning since usage (to some extent at least) has always been a method of gauging a degree of power. Very rarely would a Pokemon be useful enough to warrant usage in OU; but somehow not be good enough to be BL within the UU metagame. I'll admit it's possible, but the situation hasn't arisen and I don't think likely will.

The complexity of the suggestion is a downfall to it. Since we'll have a situation of some OU Pokemon are okay to use in UU, but others aren't. Furthermore, why can't something like Electivire be tested in UU then (it would do fine in UU most likely)?

I understand philosophical purity, but this is likely to only apply to one or two Pokemon at the most for the reasons I gave in the first paragraph and I don't think the complexity of this is worth it given the limited implications.

If this became a bigger issue I think it would be worthy of more discussion, but right now it's not really worth it for just a few small examples which haven't even panned out yet.

 

[Lutra]

So you use a statistical method to make a suspect OU which only becomes OU if they are too strong for a lower metagame - that is defined by those which don't make the suspect OU. So then banning something from the not supect OU makes it BL. And then only those who makes the suspect OU and are BL will be OU.

Isn't that just two separate faux tiers with OU on top and UU below?

True OU - BL and Over Used
Suspect OU - Over Used Not BL
BL - BL and Under Used
UU - Under Used and Not BL

That seems like a complicated sandwich method that is just not nice thinking about. The current tiering system incorporates a simple psuedo-spectrum method which is more than adequate I think.

 

[Joatmon]

This isn't really appropriate for this forum, but I'll leave this open and not move it to Policy Review since I have no idea if you have PR access and I'm not going to prevent you from responding to your own topic lol.

I do apologize for that; this was the only place I could have posted this as I presently do not have posting access to the forum. Thank you.

This goes to the very heart of our tiering system methods. We've used usage since usage (to some extent at least) has always been a method of gauging a degree of power. Very rarely would a Pokemon be useful enough to warrant usage in OU; but somehow not be good enough to be BL within the UU metagame. I'll admit it's possible, but the situation hasn't arisen and I don't think likely will.

I admit the rarity of such a situation, but would it not make sense to be prepared for that situation should it arise?

The complexity of the suggestion is a downfall to it. Since we'll have a situation of some OU Pokemon are okay to use in UU, but others aren't. Furthermore, why can't something like Electivire be tested in UU then (it would do fine in UU most likely)?

I do not suggest that we move lower OUs down to UU just like that (although I also suspect that Electivire would fare rather fine in UU) as the would just complicate the process. I envision this as a slow and gradual process as OU and UU become more refined we are able to sort through which pokemon should and shouldn't be allowed in UU on more levels than just usage OR power, but rather both. Essentially, what pokemon are OU right now are irrelevant unless they were to drop down to UU then come back up to OU or something of that sort.

I understand philosophical purity, but this is likely to only apply to one or two Pokemon at the most for the reasons I gave in the first paragraph and I don't think the complexity of this is worth it given the limited implications.

I understand the limited situations, but I honestly don't see it as too complex if only a few cases would apply to it. I mean, as far as labeling pokemon goes, a pokemon being OU* (* implying allowed in UU) as opposed to OU shouldn't be too complicated, and as far as testing goes, I don't think users would be preplexed by a pokemon allowed in UU and OU.

If this became a bigger issue, but right now it's not really worth it for just a few small examples which haven't even panned out yet.

Perfectly understandable, but you do agree that if this became a present issue that something of this sort should be implemented?

Thank you for you rather quick response, by the way.

EDIT:

Lutra, thanks for posting, as you helped clarify why some people may find this confusing. However, that is the gist of what I propose would be an improvement over the current system. I just believe that the current one works, but that, what you call an "extra pseudo tier", would improve representation of some pokemon.

 

[Heysup]

This basically only applies to Porygon2 and Gardevoir if I am not mistaken, due to Trace being so effective in the OU tier, and not so much in the UU tier (not that Gardevoir is going to be OU any time soon, but its a possibility).

I don't think making this complicated-ish exception is necessary, because too be honest if a Pokemon is only good in the OU tier, that's where it should be. I also don't like how this could possibly turn into a slippery slope situation, where exceptions are just made on a case-by-case notice.

I think the current usage system is pretty good, far from flawless obviously, but its probably the best course of action. The only flaw is that it relies on the community to use "good" Pokemon, which they usually do, however in some cases it won't work (like with p2), but those problems are rather rare.

 

[Lutra]

And also, your suggestion is only really viable for a late metagame.

Think of it this way - we move onto the fifth generation. We have quite a predicament. We don't have any OU / Uber because they have to BL first. So where do we derive our statistics from? BL? (After UU has been tested) So as a result, we would have to somehow have a different starter plan before we could implement this end plan.

I must say though, great topic. It really furthers the understanding of the study of tiers.

 

[cim]

Currently with playtesting in the UU ladder, people are looking for what is too strong in UU, which are mainly the top UUs as well as pokemon who go down into UU from the OU tier. My main concern is what happens when a UU pokemon goes up from UU to OU through usage alone, skipping the BL Tier.

The main problem I have is that the usage based system alone does not reflect the power of a pokemon in a lower tier. For example, let us say that one month, Porygon2 is used in UU rather frequently, but general consensus in the community is that it is nowhere near BL status for the tier. The next month, Porygon2 is used quite frequently in OU, enough to scrape the OU list, therefore banning it from UU to OU. In this situation, I wonder how overall power or viability in a higher tier affects the power and status or a pokemon in another lower tier. If the pokemon is not overpowered in UU, then I believe it should be allowed in UU still.

This goes against how the whole Smogon tiering system works. Precedence is given to the OU tier, and the only reason to use the UU tier is to play with Pokémon not used much in OU. Both tiers should be "balanced", so if one's playing UU to have a more balanced metagame, there's something wrong with OU.

If Porygon2 becomes OU, then there's no reason it should be UU, as it is used enough in OU, and the reason to play UU is to use a metagame of Pokémon not used enough.

This, of course, provides the problem that Smogon's Tiering system is heavily based upon Usage. I believe the system works well, but also that in this circumstance of UU pokemon becoming OU rather than BL there is some fallacy.

Why would a UU Pokémon, used a lot, become part of the UU ban list rather than part of the Standard metagame? That makes no sense to me at all.

When a UU pokemon becomes OU, they are marked for testing in UU as a "special case" Pokemon, or whatever term you may see fit. These special cases would be analyzed through UU playtesting as Shaymin, Mismagius, and so on are currently being done so, as if they are being considered for BL. This testing would go on as it presently does, but the end result differs.

But it's being used a lot in the OU metagame. Why would it exist in UU? At what point does the UU cutoff not just become "Okay, here's a line in the sand, and anything that unbalances... THIS... is banned"? I don't think that's the kind of metagame people want with UU, an arbitrarily different one. People play UU to use different Pokémon.

In other words, the current Tiering system presently bans pokemon on the following criteria; either Usage or Power. What I propose is that, while both are used as criteria, Power must be present at all times to be bumped up into another tier. I thoroughly believe that a larger emphasis on power in the tiering system will have a beneficial effect on it and more accurately present the metagame, even if by a small amount.

"More accurately present the metagame" doesn't make any sense, because the metagame is defined by the tiers. So your tiers will actually less accurately represent the OU metagame, because the most used Pokémon might be in other tiers, for the sake of the UU metagame, which is secondary to OU.

I have noticed this potential issue myself, and ultimately, it's not really important, since the OU metagame takes precedence, and the fact that UU exists really is just a side note.

 

[Heysup]

I have noticed this potential issue myself, and ultimately, it's not really important, since the OU metagame takes precedence, and the fact that UU exists really is just a side note.

Which was pretty much his point, he doesn't think OU should effect UU to some degree. While I agree with the end-point, being that its "not that important" I completely disagree with your reasoning Chris.

The UU tier should be a "seperate balanced tier from OU". Its named "under used" is in relation to the "Over used" metagame. So as it turns out, the OU metagame basically decides all tiers, and I don't know if thats the "best" way to have it, but it certainly works well enough. I don't see the need to make such a huge change for 1-2 Pokemon, especially when it effects the fundamental tiering process as a whole. The idea makes perfect sense to me however.

 

[Joatmon]

This goes against how the whole Smogon tiering system works. Precedence is given to the OU tier, and the only reason to use the UU tier is to play with Pokémon not used much in OU. Both tiers should be "balanced", so if one's playing UU to have a more balanced metagame, there's something wrong with OU.

If Porygon2 becomes OU, then there's no reason it should be UU, as it is used enough in OU, and the reason to play UU is to use a metagame of Pokémon not used enough.

Does it really defy the current tiering system? The way I view it would be an exception for 1 or 2 pokemon in the future, which isn't quite taking away complete precedence to the OU Tier.

I fail to see why one metagame being more balanced than another means another has a problem. If anything, outside of Ubers, I would expect OU to be the most unbalanced, due to suspects coming down from the Uber tier, pokemon such as Shaymin from UU/BL, and the fact it is the biggest metagame presently means that there will be more shifts in style and more unbalance.

I also disagree with your mentallity that UU is "only" for playing with Pokemon that aren't used in OU. I consider it a seperate metagame that has some factors such as available pokemon influenced by OU and NU, but I feel it is more than a "off-to-the-side" sort of Tier.

Why would a UU Pokémon, used a lot, become part of the UU ban list rather than part of the Standard metagame? That makes no sense to me at all.

I worded that rather awkwardly, I apoligize. What I meant was UU pokemon being banned through usage rather than Power (i.e. OU vs BL)

But it's being used a lot in the OU metagame. Why would it exist in UU? At what point does the UU cutoff not just become "Okay, here's a line in the sand, and anything that unbalances... THIS... is banned"? I don't think that's the kind of metagame people want with UU, an arbitrarily different one. People play UU to use different Pokémon.

I hardly think one or two pokemon that people would already be accustomed to in UU would bring up concern with playing with "different pokemon".

"More accurately present the metagame" doesn't make any sense, because the metagame is defined by the tiers. So your tiers will actually less accurately represent the OU metagame, because the most used Pokémon might be in other tiers, for the sake of the UU metagame, which is secondary to OU.

Would it make you feel better if they were marked as "OU but allowed in UU" or something? I also highly doubt that a present top OU would be allowable in UU at all; that situation is even more extreme than the one I am trying ot cover. And yes, it is secondary to OU, but it should still be important. If UU were just a side note or secondary, we wouldn't be having all this testing going on, would we? We would be putting ALL of our efforts into OU with the suspect testing. This isn't the case.

I have noticed this potential issue myself, and ultimately, it's not really important, since the OU metagame takes precedence, and the fact that UU exists really is just a side note.

My mentality here is that every tier should be more than just a "side note", even if OU is our main concern.

 

[guoguo]

...

But it's being used a lot in the OU metagame. Why would it exist in UU? At what point does the UU cutoff not just become "Okay, here's a line in the sand, and anything that unbalances... THIS... is banned"? I don't think that's the kind of metagame people want with UU, an arbitrarily different one. People play UU to use different Pokémon.

...

I have noticed this potential issue myself, and ultimately, it's not really important, since the OU metagame takes precedence, and the fact that UU exists really is just a side note.

Wanting a balanced tier and wanting a tier with different pokemon are not mutually exclusive. Guessing at a player's motivation to play UU also doesn't help establish a good tier. Saying that people want to play with pokemon used in 4.9% of OU teams but not those in 5% of OU teams is simply bad practice. Instead of giving people what you think they want, we should allow them to take what they want. Having a balanced tier would give players greater freedom to make viable teams based around the pokemon which they want to use. Adding and removing pokemon arbitrarily from the UU metagame is harmful to it as a whole because it threatens both the stability and balance of the metagame.

Maybe the OU list was relevant at the restart of UU, where we needed a pool of pokemon that have been yet untested. However, since UU has become an established tier with specific guidelines for removing pokemon from the tier, and hopefully future guidelines for adding pokemon, wouldn't this whole idea that "OU is more important than UU(and therefore should decide what belongs and doesn't belong in UU)" undermine not only the entire suspect voting process up until now but also the very establishment of UU as a legitimate tier as a whole?

 

[Caelum]

I wasn't aware that the point that UU was a less important tier was really debated. I helped organize UU suspect testing because I like UU, but I don't pretend that Smogon's focus on UU is of equal footing to OU.

Anyway, I spoke to Joatmon in PM a bit so I hope he'll understand why I'm locking this. For the time being, we first need to figure out the tiers (we still haven't figured out OU let alone UU). I said I would re-examine this discussion down the road if the situations he described became more than just a few isolated cases, and I stand by that; but as of now this is a lot of trouble to go for a few things that aren't going to make a big difference to the tiering process. The suggestion is philosophically interesting, but at this point and time I don't think Smogon is even ready to begin a process of this nature. Maybe down the road this can be discussed, but I don't see this being practically feasible in the near future. I'll keep this tucked in the back of my mind, but now is not the right time.