Totally agree with you man
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Other 6th Gen Pokemon OU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Blitzenith
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That's what this thread is for, speculating.
Almost everything can be dealt with.
It doesn't mean the preparation is too much or too limited.
Furthermore, in regards to Mega Lucario, if you go on the irc chat, you'll know that most of the smogonites who are well experienced will say how overpowered Mega Lucario is, hence claiming Lucarionite to be broken.
It's just a ridiculously powerful pokemon that can clean like no other.
In fact, I believe Mga Lucario is the best lategame cleaner at the moment.
The drawbacks of needing to mega evolve, 4SS, frail aren't enough to discredit MLucario's sheer power and the ability to lickclean the enemy team lategame.
Additionally,, Mega Lucario's special and mixed sets (esp special) are also incredibly powerful on heir own rights. This makes Lucario a pokemon of extreme versatility and unpredictability.
And we've had enough time to sort out the blatantly broken from the bunch and Mega Lucario is one imho.
Stuff like MGengar ruins "team composition" though. I mean, there's a reason shadow tag is a no-no. Building a team means nothing if you have to build for fear of synergy being ripped apart by a MGengar.
A Poke that benefits from Sticky Web is Lucario, who can actually beat TTar. Also Mega Kangaskhan likes Web too. Salamence is mostly Scarf or Dragon Dance anyways.
There aren't that few Sticky Web users. You have (in order of viability IMO) Galvantula, Smeargle, Masquerain, Shuckle, Leavanny, Ariados. The only one that can beat Tyranitar is Leavanny. Which is kiiiiiiiinda bad if you want to run Sticky Web in OU.
In UU every Sticky Web user gets instantly fucked by all the Fire-types running around. It'll be nice as team support though.
Haha, its mother, as in Kangaskhan. Was this intentional? Anyway, I agree. You could simply state something is broken, or you could actually account for it in your teambuilding. Regardless of whether it's broken or not, there are plenty of offensive and defensive checks to to Kangaskhan, for example, and they're not exactly hard to fit on a team. Just to name a few:
Offensive:
Terrakion
Keldeo
Sub Disable Gengar
Rocky Helmet Garchomp
Defensive:
Trevenant
Gourgeist
Skarmory (Rocky Helmet or not)
Rocky Helmet Deoxys-D
Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn
Heatran (If it's running Fire Punch over EQ)
It probably will be suspected at some point, but until then, you could always just run a check to it and stop complaining about it so much.
Galvantula can work great as a suicide lead tho, even in UU, I see Sticky Web + Volt Switch w/ Sash viable tbh.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
something that can't legitimately 2HKO REGULAR venusaur before it mega evolves shouldn't be banned, like, at all, thats just weak:
252+ Atk Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (black sludge to be fair)
252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.94%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO
these calcs are both assuming adamant mega lucario, this is the strongest moves mega lucario can fire right off the bat against REGULAR venusaur, not mega, and it fails to have at least a 40% chance to 2HKO, which would still be a minimum chance
now lets look at mega venusaur shall we?
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 122-144 (33.51 - 39.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
LOL PATHETIC
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 130-154 (35.71 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
nice try ;)
the iron head calc was just for fun though, nobody should be running iron head when you can run adaptabillity bullet punch
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 194-229 (53.29 - 62.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and barely a 2HKO at +2, this is mlucarios strongest hit, even if mega luke gets +2, all mega saur has to do is, survive, sleep it, synthesis/switch out/EQ it
We banned mega gengar because it could trap (which was still dumb imo)
We banned mega blaziken because speed boost on previously known as amazing wall breaker that could not be stopped in DPPT, add SD and HJK and ability to BP when it gets weak, is way too fuckin strong
we have legitimatly no reason to ban mlucario, especially compared to monsters such as these 2, and if you really want to discuss this further, you're in the wrong thread
I swear mega gengar already has shown people that you can get something instabanned if you bitch hard enough, I've had enough of this
Suicide leads are bad. The defog buff ensures that every team will probably carry at least 1 defogger or the same reason people packed roar in gen3, just in case people want to try and be cute with hazards.
Oh please, that thread had plenty of good arguments as to why it was overpowered. There was 300+ pages of discussion going on in that thread, and plenty of arguments for both side. If we find later in the metagame that Mega Gengar is capable of coming down (much like Kyurem-B) then it will get its own suspect test.
I'm sorry if this came off as aggressive, but I'm sick of people acting like Mega Gengar was banned just to shit in everybody's cereal. The thing had Shadow Tag, it had good sp.atk, good speed, nice bulk, perish song, and is also a mega evolution of an already spectacular pokemon, combined with the nerf to steel. I just don't know what to tell you. The thing was a godless killing machine and it's already been proven by that thread that the results of a gengarite suspect test would be a gigantic waste of time, because it would inevitably be banned.
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In those calculations, Venusaur is barely a counter to lucario, and only if it mega evolves after the first hit.
I don't understand the logic of using one of the strongest walls in the tier to make that point. Having one hard counter doesn't mean something isn't broken.
Lucario has its share of checks and counters, and I don't think it is broken. Just odd that you used that comparison to label it pathetic.
I don't understand the logic of using one of the strongest walls in the tier to make that point. Having one hard counter doesn't mean something isn't broken.
Lucario has its share of checks and counters, and I don't think it is broken. Just odd that you used that comparison to label it pathetic.
Honestly I love people who decide that because one Pokemon can usually beat something means it's not a good Pokemon. Venusaur is not OU caliber anymore IMO, and you're also suggesting that people should run Max Hp and defense Venusaur which is bad since you stated the Calc was Black Sludge not Venusaurite.
Honestly it's a Marvel that the top 3 pokemon right now are not Lucario, Gengar, and Kangaskhan. All 3 are hilariously powerful killing machines of death, and even experienced players will tell you that. Gengar and Lucario need to be Quickbanned, they are just so damn powerful.
Honestly it's a Marvel that the top 3 pokemon right now are not Lucario, Gengar, and Kangaskhan. All 3 are hilariously powerful killing machines of death, and even experienced players will tell you that. Gengar and Lucario need to be Quickbanned, they are just so damn powerful.
Leavanny also gets Sticky Web, and you could in theory go with Sash + Sword Dance/Leaf Blade/Sticky Web/X-Scissor (or random 4th move). Dance if you see Tyranitar, a +2 Leaf Blade will make an impression and/or make it want to hard switch to avoid the hit. If it's Scarfed to outspeed Leavanny, swap something else that'll deal with it locked in Stone Edge.
SD is a bad idea because you are OHKOed by Stone Edge+weather.
At least Leavanny can actually touch Tyranitar though. No other Sticky Web user can. Which is quite a problem when trying to use it effectively.
Seconding what has already been said. Couldn't help but notice you left out the +2 boosts in your calcs on regular venusaur, which would make those calcs look far less impressive. And your calcs assume no damage has been done to M-Venusaur, which is probably unlikely if a lucario is out and at +2. If a player has in their M-Lucario and its not at +2/has SD'd on the switch to a M-Venusaur, chances are they will probably switch to something else if they are smart, and not SD and give you a free turn. The only reason a M-Lucario would stay in and fight a mega venusaur is if it's already at +2, and hits you on the switch in, and as your calcs actually show, that kills M-Venusaur. And that's assuming it's at full or close to full health. More likely if it SD's on the switch, it can still KO you after SR or other minor damage that my have accrued if it's been doing it's job and walling. Not saying it should be banned, just saying your calcs have a lot of holes in them.
And AOPSUser, Leavanny has overcoat. Sandstorm won't break it's sash. Not that it changes much. and ninja'd
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Galvnatula has Bug Buzz, IIRC that 2-3 HKO-es Tyranitar, and it can always Volt Switch to get out from the trouble after putting Sticky Web.
And Ofc suicide leads only work if you are 100% the opponent doesn't have a defoger or a rapid spinner.
And Ofc suicide leads only work if you are 100% the opponent doesn't have a defoger or a rapid spinner.
I'm seeing Excadrill become the premier spinner of OU. Sand Rush sweeping Excadrill is also still incredibly potent, even with the loss of perma-sand. The only drawbacks other than that are that it lost its resistances to Dark and Ghost. It'll definitely be the top of OU, but OU nonetheless.
As for the Lucario, Gengar, and Khangaskan discussion, Lucario is incredibly potent, yes, but I doubt it'll be going to Ubers any time soon. Its always been a good late-game cleaner or sweeper, but that doesn't mean it can just come out any old time it wants and blow massive holes in the opponents team without repercussions. M-Gengar, on the other hand completely ignores team composition unless you run a specific M-Gengar counter, which is hard to determine thanks to its versatility. Gengarite could very easily be banned. M-Khangaskhan has a decent amount of checks, unless it runs Fire Punch or Crunch to deal with those specific threats, but then it loses out on some coverage. Again, top of OU, but probably not Uber.
As for the Lucario, Gengar, and Khangaskan discussion, Lucario is incredibly potent, yes, but I doubt it'll be going to Ubers any time soon. Its always been a good late-game cleaner or sweeper, but that doesn't mean it can just come out any old time it wants and blow massive holes in the opponents team without repercussions. M-Gengar, on the other hand completely ignores team composition unless you run a specific M-Gengar counter, which is hard to determine thanks to its versatility. Gengarite could very easily be banned. M-Khangaskhan has a decent amount of checks, unless it runs Fire Punch or Crunch to deal with those specific threats, but then it loses out on some coverage. Again, top of OU, but probably not Uber.
leavanny has Overcoat so no, it's not dying to weather and I don't even think a Leaf blade at +2 can OHKO tyranitar anyway. It needs brick break or something.
But unlike the other sticky web users (Not counting smeargle) It has access to Baton Pass
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
My point was that, the fact that it can't even 2HKO regular saur is kind of sad for such a hyped threat, I'm not saying it sucks, just saying that it has its hard counters. But then again, like every post insmogon, people have to pick apart at the little points to try and make it not understandable and seem extremely nonsensicaly flawed, which you guys didn't go that far, but, in the words of xbox "come on"
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%)
Clearly, Leavanny can be a good Sticky Web setter in the lower tiers. Its attack is good enough to nail annoying things like Musharna after a SD, and it's fast enough to outspeed Absol and knock it out with an X-Scissor. And like you said, BP can be used to gain momentum.
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Easy, buddy. We're not picking apart your calcs because lol. I'm just saying that your calcs really didn't make any sense for the point you were trying to make. Your calcs with regular venusaur were just ridiculous because A. Mega lucario will probably almost never be up against a max def/max HP regular venusaur (let alone one without a mega stone) in standard OU play and B. Mega Lucario will never attack full health defensive pokemon without an SD or NP boost. If you're trying to post calcs that show how a pokemon is overhyped, use relevant ones. I could probably show you some calcs about the damage a max def/max HP Golurk takes from an unboosted SD Terrakion that would be impressive, but next to useless.
And again, a pokemon that loses half or more of it's life switching in is not a hard counter. Like I said before, the chances of M-Venusaur coming in full health against a lucario that has either just SD'd or not SD'd yet are pretty minimal compared to the alternatives. Not knocking mega Venusaur either, he's far and away the mega I'm most impressed with and the one I use most often. But he's not close to being a hard counter to Mega lucario.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Mega luke needs to play perfectly in order to beat it which all in all is kind of a stupid thing to assume, 99% of the time mega luke will be slept and have 40% HP left if we're assuming competancy on both sides
The burden of perfection isn't on M-Lucario, its on M-Venusaur. To counter/check Mega-Lucario M-Venusaur has to have
1. either taken very little damage throughout the match thus far or have successfully healed it off over the course of the match,
2. It must switch in perfectly either on the SD (and only if it has fulfilled the conditions of #1) or switch in after a slow Turn/Switch on an unboosted mega Luc or after an unboosted M-Lucario has just KOd another teamember (if it hasn't fulfilled the conditions of #1).
Meanwhile, mega lucario just has to find a spot to SD and attack. Which is it's game plan anyway, regardless of whether Mega-venusaur is in play or not. If mega venusaur switches in on an attack, game over. If mega venusaur is missing health and switches in on the SD, game over, etc, etc.
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This is a discussion board. If you're really gonna get so huffy about it, perhaps you shouldn't be posting such passive aggressive posts about the users who were only commenting on your weak statement.
Also, I still fail to see why you think Venusaur is a "hard counter", as you've provided little more than a damage calc. It has to run a straight 252/252 and a defensive boosting nature just to avoid a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%)
Oh yes, taking approximately half its health on switch in sounds like a complete "hard counter". Venusuar also fails to do anything to Lucario, other than bench on Sleep Powder.
0 SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 116-138 (33.7 - 40.1%)
0 Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lucario: 106-126 (30.8 - 36.6%)
Venusaur is not a hard counter. Mega Venusaur is pretty close to being a hard counter, but then you remember that Mega Lucario is also a special attacker and completely detonates venusaur on the switch in with a flash cannon. So, you have to FULLY invest a venusaur, and a mega at that, in order to avoid a 2hko (barely, I might add), hope to god he's not physical/special or else you have a dead mega on your hands. The only way to keep mega lucario from tearing up MegaSaur is to put it to sleep. That's not reliable at all. Without it, he gets off a swords dance or nasty plot.
[x]
Mega Lucario, Mega Venusaur and Jellicent walk into a bar; there is no counter.
I vote we get back on track with 6th gen pokes. All this arguing about banning and suspect testing is hurting my eyes. Leave that to the designated forums like Gengarite Tiering Discussion]
Anyway, my thoughts on OU viable 6th gen pokes are:
Greninja (fast, reasonably strong, protean abusing)
Talonflame (priority brave birds? 'nuf said)
Florges (some will argue, but she makes a great special wall comparable to Blissey)
Aegislash (stance change abuse)
Goodra (I have no clue what this dragon's for, but its better than a lot of people give it credit for)
Klefki (I want this banned to uber, but it might end up NU with usage everywhere. Who knows with this annoying set of house keys)
Zygarde (great physical tank, set up sweeper, and late game cleaner)
Everybody else I think will be phased out once pokebank hits. Several will see usage, but IMO, these 7 are the only ones who might get tiered as OU. I open myself to y'all's discussion, criticism, argument, likes, name calling, bad mouthing, scorning, and of course, neglecting!
Anyway, my thoughts on OU viable 6th gen pokes are:
Greninja (fast, reasonably strong, protean abusing)
Talonflame (priority brave birds? 'nuf said)
Florges (some will argue, but she makes a great special wall comparable to Blissey)
Aegislash (stance change abuse)
Goodra (I have no clue what this dragon's for, but its better than a lot of people give it credit for)
Klefki (I want this banned to uber, but it might end up NU with usage everywhere. Who knows with this annoying set of house keys)
Zygarde (great physical tank, set up sweeper, and late game cleaner)
Everybody else I think will be phased out once pokebank hits. Several will see usage, but IMO, these 7 are the only ones who might get tiered as OU. I open myself to y'all's discussion, criticism, argument, likes, name calling, bad mouthing, scorning, and of course, neglecting!
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