With a niche of "Shell Smasher that counters Talonflame", Barbaracle can see some usage. Water / Rock is historically a terrible typing, but Talonflame is going to change that.
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Other 6th Gen Pokemon OU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Blitzenith
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Greninja doesn't need anything other its Water + Ice + Coverage. STAB on everything gives it enough power to walk through just about everything it would want to, besides Grass Knot being weak on a few things. Protean's type disadvantage after getting a kill is annoying, but when you consider that they have to go after you with flimsy priority attacks, it actually ends up offering up easy opportunities for switch ins. It isn't tough to switch into 40 BP resisted attacks.
I agree with King's Shield Aegislash, though. Its cute for messing with physical attackers, but its usually better to just switch in and out, pivot style.
Well, Groudon EX, I'm not here to trolling! Tyranitar counters Talonflamme because of SR+Roar! Heatran counters him too! A sandstorm team is a check! ( Hippowdon, excadrill, etc...)
Why would Ttar use Roar rather than KO'ing with a single attack? Anyways, you can't deny that a great many Pokémon cannot deal with priority Brave bird. If they get rid of your Talonflame counter, your days are numbered. Solid OU imho.
Did you not see this calculation?? +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 294-346 (85.96 - 101.16%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Without any access to a recovery move, TTar is pretty much finished if it decides to switch into a Swords Dance + U-Turn Talonflame. Its not a valid counter by any stretch of the imagination.
Its a "counter in name only". Yes, playing TTar forced Talonflame to switch out... so its "technically" a counter. But battle-wise, it leads to a victory for the Talonflame player, as TTar is completely crippled, and Talonflame is still at 90% HP (-10% from life orb dmg).
Without any access to a recovery move, TTar is pretty much finished if it decides to switch into a Swords Dance + U-Turn Talonflame. Its not a valid counter by any stretch of the imagination.
Its a "counter in name only". Yes, playing TTar forced Talonflame to switch out... so its "technically" a counter. But battle-wise, it leads to a victory for the Talonflame player, as TTar is completely crippled, and Talonflame is still at 90% HP (-10% from life orb dmg).
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Not that this calc isn't relevant, but how often do you see Ttar with no investment in bulk? I get that you're trying to prove a point, but Ttar runs this spread on like two sets I can think of (scarf and DD mega [which has increased defense anyway]) and neither are very common. Talonflame isn't going to kill Ttar without prior damage most of the time, meaning it can switch in on the SD to play the pursuit/stone edge mindgame. Ttar obviously isn't a solid counter in the first place because of u-turn, but it's a solid counter to any set that doesn't run it and it can still reliably revenge kill a +2 LO Talonflame no matter what it's running (unless it's salac berry natural gift lolol).
Also people need to just stop responding to anyone who says "Talonflame for UU". They obviously haven't been laddering or are stuck very low on the ladder to not realize that Talonflame is already a top OU threat.
I guess 4HP/0 Def TTar was just the top selection for the damage-calculator, and I went with it. Yeah, I didn't put much thought into it, but either way, TTar isn't going to be "countering" Talonflame more than once if U-Turn is on Talonflame.
I did not want to give the impression that Talonflame OHKO's TTar. My experience tells me that TTar usually survives the U-Turn. However, it is definitely crippled afterwards, with some ~30% HP... Talonflame U-Turns definitely disrupt any long-term prospects of TTar..
I did not want to give the impression that Talonflame OHKO's TTar. My experience tells me that TTar usually survives the U-Turn. However, it is definitely crippled afterwards, with some ~30% HP... Talonflame U-Turns definitely disrupt any long-term prospects of TTar..
I'm surprised nobody has talked about Gliscor... he outright counters Aegislash, defeats Talonflame Roost Variants and can catch a lot of dragons by surprise with Ice Fang. Also Earthquake packs quite a punch, it's able to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Blissey when Adamant and 252 attack evs.
Someone probably would have, but this thread is about pokemon introduced in Gen 6 only and their place in the metagame.
Gliscor does not counter Aegislash's Shadow Ball.
In fact, the set I run, which is 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Atk Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak ruins Gliscor's day. 2HKO with Shadow Ball -> Shadow Sneak, because Gliscor's Sp. Def is quite subpar. The mix-set also ruins Donphan, OHKOs Starmie and `Zam, serves as a revenge-killer, owns TTar with Sacred Sword and punches holes through defensive fairies with Iron Head.
Talonflame is by far the best 6th Gen Pokémon introduce this gen imo. High BP, Stab flying moves are just so good! It's the best revenge killer in the game and can be very powerful once it starts boosting. Better yes Mold Breaker Excadrill pretty much destroys all its counters once its in safely.
One Pokémon I feel like will be good in OU and isn't getting mentioned is Tyrantrum. Sure its not a top tier threat but I honestly think its better than people think. After 1 DD it out speed positive base 130's, has great physical bulk and great attack power. The best thing about this guy though is he completely counter Talonflame. Can switch in and take no damage form Talonflames moves and from there is free to set up a DD. Also the ability to not be revenged by Talonflame once your say, under half health is enough of a niche to use over other DD's in the tier. Its better than Haxorus imo and once Rock Head is released he will be better yet. He also makes good use of choice items and makes a good offense SR user if DD isn't your style.
One Pokémon I feel like will be good in OU and isn't getting mentioned is Tyrantrum. Sure its not a top tier threat but I honestly think its better than people think. After 1 DD it out speed positive base 130's, has great physical bulk and great attack power. The best thing about this guy though is he completely counter Talonflame. Can switch in and take no damage form Talonflames moves and from there is free to set up a DD. Also the ability to not be revenged by Talonflame once your say, under half health is enough of a niche to use over other DD's in the tier. Its better than Haxorus imo and once Rock Head is released he will be better yet. He also makes good use of choice items and makes a good offense SR user if DD isn't your style.
For the record, if Tyranitar survives the U-turn, Pursuit can royally screw up Talonflame (albeit not KOing Talonflame). Will-O-Wisp variants are fairly annoying as they can escape the boosted Pursuit provided they don't get Stone Edged right off the bat. Even then, I hesitate putting LO on Talonflame when its health is being whittled down quickly with each STAB already.
Also, the best use I've found for Aegislash's King Shield is not (just) for screwing up physical attackers, but for switching back into Shield Stance. Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak Aegislash is pretty damn good, tanking a hit with those nice defenses before launching a strong STAB double whammy with 150 offenses, but you can usually only do it once before the opponent switches in something that can tank Shadow Sneak and poke at your weak defenses. If it happens to be a Ground-type with EQ, welp too bad for you as you have to switch (just like Stance Dance Aegi anyway). Anything else though has to take the 2-hit combo again while they struggle to break through Aegislash as it reverts back to Shield Stance, and it isn't as crippled by Will-O-Wisp as much as Stance Dance Aegi either. Just make sure your 2-hit combo actually finishes the enemy off though.
Also, the best use I've found for Aegislash's King Shield is not (just) for screwing up physical attackers, but for switching back into Shield Stance. Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak Aegislash is pretty damn good, tanking a hit with those nice defenses before launching a strong STAB double whammy with 150 offenses, but you can usually only do it once before the opponent switches in something that can tank Shadow Sneak and poke at your weak defenses. If it happens to be a Ground-type with EQ, welp too bad for you as you have to switch (just like Stance Dance Aegi anyway). Anything else though has to take the 2-hit combo again while they struggle to break through Aegislash as it reverts back to Shield Stance, and it isn't as crippled by Will-O-Wisp as much as Stance Dance Aegi either. Just make sure your 2-hit combo actually finishes the enemy off though.
Leftovers helps on Talonflame. A lot. Without Leftovers and assuming nothing resists Brave Bird on the other team, it can help to do one more attack at >10% HP.
Swords Dance + Salac Berry Natural Gift can hit Tyranitar in the face (And Heatran, once Pokebank comes out) and provides more general coverage too. But of course, you totally lose out on Roost or Leftovers recovery.
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Life Orb Recovery?
LO is generally the abbreviation for Life Orb, not Leftovers.
Maybe Aegislash can be Uber, you know? It would be the new "Excadrill"!
I really hope you're joking, haha. It's too predictable with King's Shield and has a case of 4MSS no matter what it tries to do. Sure, it can demolish any counter with the right move, but so can a lot of Pokemon (Jirachi, Keldeo, Breloom, etc.). The fact is, Aegislash doesn't have 60/150/150/150/150/60 stats, and if you can predict around it then it's pretty easy to get rid of. It's still a threat though, and the most effective sets are arguably those that don't even use King's Shield.
My ideas for the top threats of XY, including new Mega Evolutions:
Go straight to Ubers:
1. Xerneas
2. Mega Gengar
3. Fairy Arceus
4. Yveltal
1. Talonflame - Yes it's walled by Rock-types. Run a Dugtrio to get rid of them. Afterwards it can sweep. Rotom-W needs defensive investment, as the current "bulky attacker" set at 232/0 Def is OHKOed by a +2 Sky Plate Brave Bird after SR. Heatran is not only molested by Dugtrio, but has to use Ancientpower to do any relevant damage to Talonflame. Talonflame also can afford to run as many as 192 HP EVs--it only needs 60 Speed to outspeed Jolly Excadrill to hit it with Flare Blitz, as everything faster either dies to Brave Bird or doesn't do much damage to Talonflame (although you might want to run more EVs to deal with Jirachi.) It also happens to 2HKO Barbaracle at +2 with a Sky Plate Brave Bird, assuming lack of defensive investment on the former, which means it's not exactly a safe switch-in.
2. Mega Lucario - It can do so many things, like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and the fact is that you don't know what it's running until it sets up, which is similar to Mew and Rayquaza in their respective tiers. A +2 Close Combat hits really hard, destroying things like Skarmory easily, and even having a 40% chance to 2HKO 252/252 Impish Gliscor after SR. Crunch lets it deal with Aegislash with proper prediction, and Bullet Punch kills a lot of faster things, like even Mega Gengar at +2.
3. Aegislash - The hype will eventually settle down. Aegislash has 4MSS, and although it can run physical, special, or mixed sets, those sets all have plenty of counters that make life very difficult for Aegislash. Once you know what it is running, it is a straightforward process to beat it. The trouble is telling the sets apart, and since Swords Dance is the most common and most powerful, predicting which set it's running isn't that bad even if you get it wrong. Also mad props to this thing-it is one of two Pokemon to reliably check Xerneas, which will give it Ubers usage.
4. Zygarde - It's the only Dragon-type to get Coil. It also gets Extremespeed and EdgeQuake coverage. Too bad it doesn't get Dragon Rush (seriously?). But regardless, Zygarde is still a good bulky set-up sweeper. Just watch out for stuff that can survive a boosted Extremespeed and outspeed and OHKO, or survive a boosted Edge/Quake and OHKO.
5. Greninja - It's the only viable user of Protean (lol Kecleon), which is nice. It gets Spikes, and gets a bunch of coverage moves. As it stands, Protean requires quite a bit of prediction, and if you get something wrong you could lose your Greninja. If only it could Rapid Spin...
6. Mega Blastoise: A Spinner that can defeat all Spinblockers? I'll take it. Even if it takes up your Mega slot, if your team isn't the type that uses Mega Lucario or Mega Mawile (or Mega Gengar before that inevitably gets banned), it's well worth it.
Honorable mentions:
Mega Mawile: 678 Attack and Swords Dance, and you get to Intimidate the foe before Mega Evolving. Also, it has the best defensive typing in existence. Too bad it has such bad speed, although it can use Sucker Punch very well.
Noviern: Attacks go through Subs, gets Draco Meteor and Boomburst, and has a decent defensive typing which lets it switch in on lots of moves. It'll be right up there with Crobat as revenge killers this gen.
Sylveon: This thing defines "defensive Fairy-type", and even has a very usable Special Attack stat and access to Pixilate Hyper Voice (post-Pokebank) to boot. It'll definitely be one of the premier Fairy-type walls.
Florges: Operates the same way as Sylveon, except it has a little higher special bulk and a little lower physical bulk, as well as less of a movepool. It will probably end up in a tier close to Sylveon.
Wow, nice find. I never knew he learned defog. As a interesting note, he also gets Knock Off from egg moves. His movepool is more shallow than I'm used to but I could definitely see some use for it.
Defog, Whirlwind, Brave Bird, Foul Play (originally a move tutor move, not sure if it's still available), Tailwind, Bone Rush, Taunt are a couple of interesting options though.
However, he also faces some competition from Crobat as a defogger, and skarmory as a wall, so I feel as if it'll go RU/UU this gen.
+6 252+ Attack Aegislash Sacred Sword vs 252HP/252D.Def. Mandibuzz : 78,54% - 92,45% - 100% chance to 2KHO, 100% chance to OHKO with rocks.
LO +6 252+ Attack Aegislash Sacred Sword vs 252HP/252D.Def. Mandibuzz : 102,12% - 120,28% - 100% chance to OHKO.
Not that anyone vs a smart player will get to +6 anyway, but just for the record, damn, that is one durable bird here.
Of course, even with the move buffs and all, I agree with ^ because of other pokemon bein able to offer what Mandibuzz offers along with other utilities better.
As for OU candidates .. I'd say the standard stuff I'm sure a lot already speculate, like Azumarill, Aegislash, and I guess Talonflame too, that or UU. Diggersby could be viable in OU too, tho, again, I guess it will end up in UU.
Skarmory isn't as all around bulky(lacks special defense and HP), and Crobat is too frail to compete with Mandibuzz's reliability(Much easier to KO Crobat). Mandibuzz isn't the best Defogger, but it's at the very least reliable. Also, I was assuming that Aegislash was setting up in Mandibuzz's face, so rocks were not an issue(leftovers). Also, Mandibuzz is faster than Aegislash, so an exchange will usually end with Aegislash dying. That's a pretty handy utility there.
Not to mention he still has Access to Knock Off (Via Breeding) + Overcoat received a huge buff (immune to powder-moves)
So Knock Off / Defog / Roost / Taunt, Tailwind, or Foul Play would be the best choice on it. Knock Off can deal a lot to Aegislash w/ item
It's definitely getting out of NU and bypassing RU IMO, it's either UU or OU for sure.
I'm a bit confused. Is this thread speculating on what is OU "worthy," or rather predicting what will be in OU? The two are different things, to be honest. Personally I hope that things like Greninja and Charizard X don't make the OU cut, but their popularity and hype will most certainly keep them there for the first few months at least. And they could very well be top OU threats when all is said and done.
What about Jolteon? Is the addition of sticky web going to knock him out of that borderline area between OU and NU? Still one of the fastest threats in the game, has access to Volt Switch and Shadow Ball...
What about Jolteon? Is the addition of sticky web going to knock him out of that borderline area between OU and NU? Still one of the fastest threats in the game, has access to Volt Switch and Shadow Ball...
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
dude, come on, it's a fantastic dragon dancer. Tough claws leaves it with far, far more power than any other dragon dancer, it's immune to WoW, it has a good secondary STAB that can kill fairies, it has all the coverage it needs, it has enough bulk to set up, it has the best speed tier of any OU dragon dancer, it's not weak to any priority, it has the bulk to take priority hits. Only heatran and azumarill can stand up to flare blitz / dragon claw, and man, thunderpunch rips open azumarill, EQ does the same to heatran. Neither mence nor dragonite can beat fairies without sacrificing crucial coverage, unlike zard. I mean, it's not as if gen 5 UU and gen 6 UU will look the same, but kingdra's dragon dance set was a big threat in gen 5 UU, charizard X is about 20 times better than kingdra at dragon dancing.
Not to repeat what's been said above, but yeah. Charizard X is amazing, and spinners aren't hard to come by in OU. And with Greninja, every move becomes STAB, coupled with it's impressive spd and decent atk and sp.atk It would be insane if it doesn't go OU
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