Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[DEG]

With what has been said above regarding Z-moves I would like to talk about a Z-move abuser and not the mechanic itself. You've guessed, Tapu Koko. This Pokemon is seriously busted with just one Z-move. Here, we're not talking about an unpredictable Pokemon that can run any Z-move, we're talking about a specific Z-stones and a specific abuser. Most arguments around Z-moves are based around the fact that they are unpredictable but we're seeing some users that run the same Z-stone over and over again and are borderline broken. I'd like to bring attention to Tapu Koko.

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Tapu Koko got many other moves but that's the moveset that been pushing it over the edge at this moment. This set is near perfect and has reduced Tapu Koko checks to a minimal number. You can't run physical Ground-type coverage or any other bulky physical attackers and call it a check. Iron Defense + Charge is a deadly combo and with good defensive EVs it can live most physical attackers that used to OHKO it after surviving a Z-move. Tapu Koko doesn't even need to invest in attack as Electric Terrain, Charged Z-Wild Charge can either OHKO or deal serious damage to the opponent.

Looking at the current philosophy we have in place;

1) Tapu Koko is the 3rd most used Pokemon on the 1v1 ladder just behind both Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, two tier titans, on the 1630s weighted usage. It also gets so much usage in tournaments like seen in the previous 1v1PL, 1v1LT and recently 1v1 SSNL mean that Tapu Koko is arguably one of the most influential and used Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame. It is also splashable on any team easily. It is a low risk Pokemon as it can only lose most of the time to a minimal Pokemon.

2) As said before, Tapu Koko has such little counters that the team that can easily fix the issue. Tapu Koko is mostly countered by Ground-type Pokemon, Mega Venusaur, and Dragonite to an extent. Some Pokemon such as Mega Metagross used to be able to beat it but thanks to the recent innovation of Iron Defense it no longer can. Tapu Koko also counters a good amount of the metagame and makes a lot of Pokemon worse, especially Flying- and Water-type Pokemon which are restricted due to the omnipresence of Tapu Koko in the tier. Banning Tapu Koko will free the way to many Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame.

Tapu Koko can, in some teams, run Fairium-Z to lure in Dragon-type Pokemon such as Zygarde-C and Garchomp. While this set might not be optimal nor deserve much attention while discussing Tapu Koko, it should still be taken into account.

Now there's some people that might still be stuck with the mindset of "Oh if we banning Koko we're allowing Mega Dos and Zard X to roam free in the tier", this might be false. If we ever decide on banning Tapu Koko, a lot of other Pokemon will see more usage which will most likely be able to counter them, we're also allowing more Electric-type Pokemon to be used more and not be completely outclassed by Koko, such as Ampharos.

Therefore, I'm with banning Tapu Koko from 1v1.
Short post, but made my point across minimal words, if people want to reply I'll probably respond with either a bigger paragraph or reply to each point by itself so please, be my guest and discuss Tapu Koko.

 

[Tol]

With what has been said above regarding Z-moves I would like to talk about a Z-move abuser and not the mechanic itself. You've guessed, Tapu Koko. This Pokemon is seriously busted with just one Z-move. Here, we're not talking about an unpredictable Pokemon that can run any Z-move, we're talking about a specific Z-stones and a specific abuser. Most arguments around Z-moves are based around the fact that they are unpredictable but we're seeing some users that run the same Z-stone over and over again and are borderline broken. I'd like to bring attention to Tapu Koko.

View attachment 107698
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Tapu Koko got many other moves but that's the moveset that been pushing it over the edge at this moment. This set is near perfect and has reduced Tapu Koko checks to a minimal number. You can't run physical Ground-type coverage or any other bulky physical attackers and call it a check. Iron Defense + Charge is a deadly combo and with good defensive EVs it can live most physical attackers that used to OHKO it after surviving a Z-move. Tapu Koko doesn't even need to invest in attack as Electric Terrain, Charged Z-Wild Charge can either OHKO or deal serious damage to the opponent.

Looking at the current philosophy we have in place;

1) Tapu Koko is the 3rd most used Pokemon on the 1v1 ladder just behind both Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, two tier titans, on the 1630s weighted usage. It also gets so much usage in tournaments like seen in the previous 1v1PL, 1v1LT and recently 1v1 SSNL mean that Tapu Koko is arguably one of the most influential and used Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame. It is also splashable on any team easily. It is a low risk Pokemon as it can only lose most of the time to a minimal Pokemon.

2) As said before, Tapu Koko has such little counters that the team that can easily fix the issue. Tapu Koko is mostly countered by Ground-type Pokemon, Mega Venusaur, and Dragonite to an extent. Some Pokemon such as Mega Metagross used to be able to beat it but thanks to the recent innovation of Iron Defense it no longer can. Tapu Koko also counters a good amount of the metagame and makes a lot of Pokemon worse, especially Flying- and Water-type Pokemon which are restricted due to the omnipresence of Tapu Koko in the tier. Banning Tapu Koko will free the way to many Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame.

Tapu Koko can, in some teams, run Fairium-Z to lure in Dragon-type Pokemon such as Zygarde-C and Garchomp. While this set might not be optimal nor deserve much attention while discussing Tapu Koko, it should still be taken into account.

Now there's some people that might still be stuck with the mindset of "Oh if we banning Koko we're allowing Mega Dos and Zard X to roam free in the tier", this might be false. If we ever decide on banning Tapu Koko, a lot of other Pokemon will see more usage which will most likely be able to counter them, we're also allowing more Electric-type Pokemon to be used more and not be completely outclassed by Koko, such as Ampharos.

Therefore, I'm with banning Tapu Koko from 1v1.
Short post, but made my point across minimal words, if people want to reply I'll probably respond with either a bigger paragraph or reply to each point by itself so please, be my guest and discuss Tapu Koko.

Your point being what exactly? Donphan reduces the viability of practically every steel type that doesn't carry Magnet Rise or have Flying typing, and kills most frail things besides. The only real things it loses to are things that resist its Groundium Z move, are immune to it, or have Mold Breaker and the ability to OHKO it. Unfortunately for Donphan, many things can EV themselves to tank its hits, notably Tapu Lele and Primarina, hence it is not quite as powerful as it once was. However, Tapu Koko has the secondary argument that practically everything faster than it beats it. Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, Mega Lopunny, Greninja if you're running the bulky Raimon set... this issue is simply not there for other Z-Move users.

 

[Felucia]

hence it is not quite as powerful as it once was.

Pokémon don't "get broken" and "stop being broken" out of nowhere. If it is "not quite as powerful as it once was" that means "once" the metagame wasn't properly prepared for it and now it is, meaning that Donphan could at least be prepared for.

The point being argued for by DEG, is that Koko is problematic to an extent where you cannot prepare your sets to beat it.

I hope I did a good job at illustrating this comparison crumbles, and your post was basically coming down to "what's your point" which isn't the quality I expect on the 1v1 thread.
Also: Don't compare mons to prove a point in general, if Donphan is equally problematic as Koko, then write a post illustrating why Donphan should be banned, instead of using it as an argument to say Koko should not be banned.

That being said: I'll stop being lazy and start writing a Koko post myself, as soon as I'm done writing this pesky discord bot that keeps breaking

 

[The Official Glyx]

[12:33] %osra : !pick make z post, do homework, do some playing, do some real playing
We randomly picked: make z post

And here we are-

Z-MOVES​

First, let's talk about why Z-Moves are being discussed in the first place:

• They shift the metagame heavily towards bulky offense
• They provide an element of unpredictability to many Pokemon that use them

Second, let's analyze these reasons in relation to the metagame as a whole:

Z-Mons

B = Bulky
NB = Not Bulky
CB = Can be Bulky

S Rank

CB
Tapu Koko

A+ Rank

B
Dragonite

B
Magearna

CB
Mimikyu

A Rank

B
Landorus-Therian

B
Snorlax

B
Tapu Lele

B
Zygarde-Complete

A- Rank

B
Aegislash

B
Genesect

B
Magnezone

CB
Porygon-Z

B+ Rank

NB
Blaziken

B
Donphan

B
Golem

NB
Greninja

NB
Naganadel

B
Primarina

B
Tapu Fini

B Rank

B
Ferrothorn

CB
Garchomp

B
Heatran

CB
Kartana

B
Meloetta

CB
Mew

B
Necrozma

NB
Sawk

B- Rank

B
Blissey

B
Buzzwole

B
Celesteela

CB
Crustle

NB
Durant

B
Hoopa-Unbound

B
Kommo-o

B
Togekiss

C+ Rank

NB
Archeops

B
Avalugg

B
Carracosta

NB
Excadrill

NB
Latios

NB
Pheromosa

B
Tapu Bulu

NB
Terrakion

B
Umbreon

CB
Victini

CB
Volcarona

C Rank

NB
Blacephalon

CB
Deoxys-S

B
Entei

NB
Haxorus

NB
Hydreigon

NB
Infernape

B
Keldeo

B
Nihilego

NB
Ninetales-Alola

NB
Relicanth

B
Thundurus-Therian

C- Rank

B
Pyukumuku

B
Quagsire

B
Rhyperior

CB
Serperior

B
Skarmory

B
Stakataka

B
Suicune

D Rank

B
Azumarill

B
Barbaracle

B
Clefable

B
Slaking

NB
Smeargle

B
Volcanion

Here we have every feasible Z-Move user listed under the current VR. The letters by their icon symbolize whether the Pokemon is either bulky by the natural circumstances of their stats/typing or is often built with the involvement of particular EV investment that makes them bulkier than they normally would be (B), is often not built to be bulky or simply lacking in natural bulk (NB), or is iffy in that it is not a bulky mon but is sometimes built to be bulky (CB). Counting how many mons pertain to each category shows:
B = 42
NB = 17
CB = 11
Z-Move users in 1v1 definitely seem to have a type, which is being bulky. This kind of emphasis on being tanky makes the metagame considerably more one-dimensional, to the point in which most battles are effectively deconstructed into two elements:
The Setup
The Attack
The order in which the elements occur is often based on the context of the matchup- ie just going for the KO with Koko vs Gyarados as opposed to going for Charge with Koko vs Heatran. Some battles don't even have moments where you would launch a powerful attack, namely when using mons like Blissey and Pyukumuku. This kind of lacking maneuverability ties into the second argument of why Z-Moves are being discussed, unpredictability.

IMPORTANT NOTE

The above information pertains towards why Z-Moves may or may not be unhealthy in regards to the 1v1 metagame, however, in doing research, I've found that metagame health should be the last thing we evaluate, in regards to the overall inspection of Z-Moves in 1v1.

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

• These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
• This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.

• This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
• When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

the entire quote didn't fit into a single block, rip
This shows that metagame health should be considered last, but I've already typed all this out, so...... If Z-Moves are not ruled as uncompetitive, then we'll have to come back to this argument later.

There are multiple different types of unpredictability that exist in 1v1, but the most prominent are these four:

• Uncontrollable Unpredictability - This emerges from what we call "RNG" or "hax", and is often found in the form of unboosted critical hits and status conditions that immobilize the opponents for an uncontrollable number of turns.
• Assigned Unpredictability - This comes from when a player willingly chooses to take an option that is anything less than certain. Examples include using moves that can miss or have chanced secondary effects, uncertain damage rolls, using teams that are prone to 50/50's or 33/33/33's at team preview, and more.
• Circumstantial Unpredictability - This comes in the form of what is known as "predictions" or "guesses". It is when the setting of the battle has been laid out and players are trying to deduce what they believe their opponents will do. This kind of uncertainty is best displayed when you've been facing the same opponent using the same team multiple times and you can only 50/50 them at best with your team. This category isn't entirely uncertain, as there is also an element of psychological warfare involved, but is still far from being certain, thus resulting in its conclusion here.
• One-Sided Unpredictability - The quality in which a Pokemon that you are faced against could have many potential sets or moves at its disposal, with the best examples being Groundium Landorus-Therian vs Flyinium, Charizard-X vs Y, Speedy Metagross-Mega vs Bulky, and Substitute Zygarde-Complete vs Rest. This kind of unpredictability is biased against the side that has no idea what set their opponent could potentially be running.

Z-Moves pertain mostly towards One-Sided Unpredictability, as they're capable of giving many pokemon the opportunity to run multiple threatening sets, thus resulting in more Pokemon that have a similar quality in unpredictability as having to deduce whether the opponent has Charizard-X or Y. This also results in a similar threat of unpredictability as Pokemon that can take advantage of the absence of Species Clause, except that Z-Moves have an advantage over Species Clause in that you don't have to sacrifice a slot on your team in order to make opponents second guess themselves.

Third, let's see if the issues outlined above pertain only to a select few Z-Move abusers, or to the entire metagame:

Unpredictable Z-Mons

A+ Rank

Dragonite

Mimikyu

A Rank

Landorus-Therian

A- Rank

Genesect

Magnezone

Porygon-Z

B+ Rank

Blaziken

Donphan

Golem

Greninja

Naganadel

Primarina

Tapu Fini

B Rank

Ferrothorn

Garchomp

Heatran

Kartana

Meloetta

Mew

Necrozma

Sawk

B- Rank

Buzzwole

Celesteela

Hoopa-Unbound

Togekiss

C+ Rank

Archeops

Avalugg

Excadrill

Latios

Pheromosa

Tapu Bulu

Victini

C Rank

Blacephalon

Deoxys-S

Haxorus

Hydreigon

Infernape

Keldeo

Nihilego

Ninetales-Alola

C- Rank

Rhyperior

Stakataka

D Rank

Azumarill

Clefable

Slaking

Volcanion

So, of the original 70 feasible Z-Users we had prior to this, we now have 46 Pokemon that can enforce the One-Sided Unpredictability mentioned above. This is a good 2/5 of the viably ranked Pokemon in the metagame that are capable of enforcing uncertainty against opponents.

IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
• This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
• "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.

At the end of the day, our job is expressing our belief as a community whether the uncertainty brought upon by Z-Moves is "too much" or not. If we cannot reach a conclusion as to whether or not Z-Moves are uncompetitive, or if the community at large decides they are not, then it will be up to the pro-ban side to display why they may be unhealthy for the metagame, since that is the only other way in which Z-Moves as a whole can be banned.

 

[Nalei]

Some Thoughts on Z Moves​

One recent thought that I had about the state of a desirable metagame is pertaining to the "shape" of the VR. I'm going to set up some guidelines here of what I think the shape of an ideal metagame looks like:

• Has an amount of viable Pokemon that it is reasonable to prepare for
• Has a low number of S and D ranks, a moderate number of A and C ranks, and slightly more B ranks than either A or C
• Has a number of viable Pokemon that makes using non-meta Pokemon a viable strategy

Quantifying how a Z moves ban would effect the VR with any level of precision is an all but impossible endeavor. In that spirit, a suspect test is an absolute must to see how the meta would develop. However, given that there is no suspect test yet, I'll do what I can to see how the VR might look without Z moves. Step one of how I'll be doing this is to quantify the direct impact of Z moves on Pokemon. After that, I'll be looking at how the Pokemon, without Z moves, interacts with other Pokemon and adjust again. For the sake of my sanity, I'll be cutting it off at C-. One more time, this is hugely hypothetical so don't rape me if you disagree. Thanks.

Current VR

S Rank

A+ Rank

A Rank

A- Rank

B+ Rank

B Rank

B- Rank

C+ Rank

C Rank

C- Rank

List of Direct Changes

Tapu Koko -3
Dragonite -2
Magearna -1
Mimikyu -2
Landorus-T Unranked
Zygarde -1
Snorlax -1
Tapu Lele -2
Aegislash -1
Magnezone -1
Donphan -2
Golem -2
Primarina -1
Tapu Fini -1
Garchomp -1
Buzzwole -2
Blissey Unranked
Crustle -2
Kommo-o Unranked
Togekiss -2
Avalugg -1
Excadrill -1
Carracosta Unranked
Latios -2
Pheromosa -1
Tapu Bulu -1
Terrakion -2
Umbreon Unranked
Volcarona -2
Deoxys-S -1
Entei Unranked
Keldeo Unranked
Ninetales-A Unranked
Relicanth Unranked
Thundurus-T -1
Quagsire Unranked
Rhyperior -1
Serperior Unranked
Salazzle Unranked
Skarmory Unranked
Suicune -1

New VR v1

S Rank

A+ Rank

A Rank

A- Rank

B+ Rank

B Rank

B- Rank

C+ Rank

C Rank

C- Rank

D Rank

Adjustments

Mega Gyarados +1
Mega Charizard X +1
Mega Charizard Y +1
Genesect -1
Mega Mawile +1
Porygon-Z +1
Mega Venusaur +1
Tapu Koko -2
Mimikyu -1
Zygarde +1
Snorlax +1
Blaziken +2
Mega Gardevoir -1
Mega Pinsir +1
Magnezone -1
Mega Altaria +1
Chansey +1
Heatran +1
Mew +1
Primarina +1
Mega Diancie +1
Durant +1
Hoopa-U -1
Whimsicott +1
Donphan +1
Garchomp +1
Mega Camerupt +1
Marowak-A +1
Porygon2 +1
Mega Garchomp -1
Landorus-I -1
Mega Pidgeot +1
Tapu Bulu -1
Hitmonlee +1
Latios +1
Rhyperior +2
Suicune +1

VR v2

S+ Rank

S Rank

A+ Rank

A Rank

A- Rank

B+ Rank

B Rank

B- Rank

C+ Rank

C Rank

C- Rank

So let's do some comparison. First of all, the VR without Z moves is more heavily concentrated within the B and C subranks while the current VR is more concentrated within the C+ rank. Additionally, the VR without Z moves has a "spikier" top-tier - that is, there are less top-tier Pokemon, but they have a greater gap in power between them and the Pokemon below them. Another thing to note is that there are 13 less Pokemon on the no Z VR. Ultimately, I'd argue that the VR with no Z moves is less desirable than with them, but I'll leave it up to your interpretation. One last time, take this with a grain of salt. tldr; open the last spoiler
e: One other thing. There's a lot of talk about Koko and a lot of talk about Z moves. The move suspect should come before the Koko suspect as Koko isn't broken without Z moves, but Z moves could be broken without Koko.

 

[Freddy Kyogre]

In 1v1, you're never going to be totally sure about what set a mon is going to run. Unpredictability is almost fundamental in this tier.

I love this statement. This sums up exactly everything that I feel the metagame represents. Whether there are or aren't zmoves in the tier doesn't change this fact. Getting rid of them will just make people think more creatively, which isn't exactly a problem, but it won't get rid of that problem that everyone complains about.

Take for example, my special metagross. It is unpredictable, but it doesn't utilize zmoves. I've also seen some very stupid sets, but they are quite unpredictable, such as special gyara m, or specs golem (seriously don't run that).
the main take away from this: z moves aren't needed for unpredictablility.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Take for example, my special metagross. It is unpredictable, but it doesn't utilize zmoves. I've also seen some very stupid sets, but they are quite unpredictable, such as special gyara m, or specs golem (seriously don't run that).
the main take away from this: z moves aren't needed for unpredictablility.

The flaw with these examples is that while changing a Pokémon from physical to special does make it unpredictable, it doesn’t make it viable. The other half of the problem is two of the Pokémon you listed as examples, can’t run a Z Crystal! Therefore there’s no point in bringing them into the discussion.
So let’s take the one set you did give, specs golem, you yourself say don’t use it making this whole argument invalid.

 

[Felucia]

Hello 1v1 council members and more importantly: Not 1v1 council members!
The council has been watching you. Both your posts and your 1v1 room activity, and many of the points we introduced sparked a lot of discussion. One of these points however, got little to no opposition in the room or on the forums. I am of course talking about the following:

Unban Marshadow

I could of course explain in detail why this was brought up in the first place, but I think that is pretty clear at this point. But I'll give you a quick rundown for those of you who haven't been paying attention.

In the past Marshadow was deemed broken by the 1v1 leadership and quickbanned
But it seems the metagame as it stands has a pretty reasonable chance against Marshadow. Metagame shifts, improved setbuilding and higher overall skill when it comes to teambuilding make Marshadow less problematic in the current metagame.
Another thing that's important is the fact that both Kyurem-Black and Jirachi were banned since Marshadow's disappearance, making Marshadow have 2 less things to counter.

Now I assume you see where this is going. After amazing support in the 1v1 room and no opposition on the forums, the council decided to hold a vote on Marshadow. But this vote is a complex one, in the sense that Marshadow would be unbanned but Marshadium-Z would be banned. Changing its role and power from before.

I'm going to bold stuff just to get your attention follow this with two hide tags, the first will contain a short piece of reasoning by the individual council members (paraphrase not quote, so don't hate them if my wording is bad). The second hide tag will have the vote results for those of you who are boring and don't like suspense.

Council reasoning

UnleashOurPassion: I would abstain from this vote personally, because I have trouble imagining what the metagame would be like with Marshadow unbanned. But as I said after the previous council decision (which, if you didn't notice, caused a lot of uproar) I would allow the community to have a reasonable impact on my vote. So the decision made for me was mostly based on the overwhelmingly positive reactions.

MaceMaster: I don't have much to say, I analyzed the VR and concluded this would be a healthy change. Out of A, A+ and S rank on the current VR, the only mon that consistently loses to Marshadow is Metagross-Mega, whose typing just can't stand up to a ghost-type Z-Move or even a Life Orb Bulk Up set.

DEG: We never tested Marshadow without its Z-Crystal before and its most famous and broken sets were cause of the Z-Move. There's plenty of bulky offensive Pokemon atm and especially the most used ones, like Gyarados and Zygod. Also, with Zeroara likely being freed soon, Marshadow would be nerfed further.

The Immortal: I'm reluctant because Marshadow was banned in the past, and with good reason. But reasoning given by other council members has convinced me that freeing Marshadow is the change that needs to happen to work towards a healthy and balanced 1v1 metagame.

Uselesscrab: I strongly wanted to remove Marshadow from 1v1 when it was released, and I have yet to see why re-introducing it would make it different from before. But at the same time with the recent metagame changes like the unban of Power Construct and banning Kyurem-B I can't tell if the metagame is decidedly unprepared for the re-introduction of Marshadow.

If you just want to see the results

Sorry, I went a bit overboard on the colouring... I wanted my first council post to reflect that I'm an important council member too... Besides, it wouldn't be a UOP post without excessive formatting

Starting now, Marshadow is unbanned from the 1v1 metagame, its exclusive Z-Crystal however, has been banned.

Thanks for reading this post, if you have questions feel free to PM any council member on PS, Discord or Smogon.

 

[ayedan]

Marshadow unban: Leet me piece this together to try to figure something out. 1v1 starts of with a 1. The first letter of the alphabet is A. So let's start off with
A.
They unbanned Marshadow from 1v1 on the site Pokemon Showdown. Pokemon. Pokemon starts with
P.
The council made reasonings to unban Marshadow and why they deemed Marshadow without Marshadium Z not broken. Reasonings starts with a
R.
UnleashOurPassion makes this post in 1st person therefore saying I alot in the post.
I.

They banned it bcz it used to give half the meta a L.
L.

We should feel free to leave our thoughts on the subject and how we feel. Feel and free starts with a F
F.

UnleashOurPassion made a post on Marshadow and the unban of the mon and the ban of its z move. UnleashOurPassion has an O in it to start Our.
O.

The Dark Alakazam liked UOP's post. The Dark Alakazam has 15 letters in the name. U know what else represents 15 u may be asking? O is the 15th letter is the alphabet.
O.

LucarioAidan is writing this post. LucarioAidan starts with an L.
L.

The council didnt hold a Suspect as they deemed it to be able to be decided by council and the help of active 1v1 players. Suspect starts with an S
S.

Now take the letters after each paragraph and what does that spell?

A.
P.
R.
I.
L.
F.
O.
O.
L.
S.

 

[dom]

i swear to fuck if this isnt an april fools joke

 

[Felucia]

Marshadow unban: Leet me piece this together to try to figure something out. 1v1 starts of with a 1. The first letter of the alphabet is A. So let's start off with
A.
They unbanned Marshadow from 1v1 on the site Pokemon Showdown. Pokemon. Pokemon starts with
P.
The council made reasonings to unban Marshadow and why they deemed Marshadow without Marshadium Z not broken. Reasonings starts with a
R.
UnleashOurPassion makes this post in 1st person therefore saying I alot in the post.
I.

They banned it bcz it used to give half the meta a L.
L.

We should feel free to leave our thoughts on the subject and how we feel. Feel and free starts with a F
F.

UnleashOurPassion made a post on Marshadow and the unban of the mon and the ban of its z move. UnleashOurPassion has an O in it to start Our.
O.

The Dark Alakazam liked UOP's post. The Dark Alakazam has 15 letters in the name. U know what else represents 15 u may be asking? O is the 15th letter is the alphabet.
O.

LucarioAidan is writing this post. LucarioAidan starts with an L.
L.

The council didnt hold a Suspect as they deemed it to be able to be decided by council and the help of active 1v1 players. Suspect starts with an S
S.

Now take the letters after each paragraph and what does that spell?

A.
P.
R.
I.
L.
F.
O.
O.
L.
S.

Conspiracy theories about April fools jokes don't justify shitposting on this thread thanks.

 

[edudittA]

I got a bigger screen than my mobile, so it's time to post my thoughts on ZMoves......

Okay, I'll start off with my Z-Moves stance, which is TO NOT BAN Z-MOVES...


Z-Moves: My opinions

I think we are at a crucial juncture in this metagame where Z-Moves have shown their potential, their worth, their unhealthiness, their overbearing nature, their pros and cons for the 1v1 metagame.

WHY SHOULD Z MOVES BE ALLOWED IN 1v1 :

• Diversity:

Let's face it; you wouldn't have seen half the Pokemon from the Viability Rankings if not for Z-Moves. How else would you use Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, Donphan, Primarina, Buzzwole, Crustle, Kommo-o, amongst others, to its present threatening presence without Z-Moves? The answer: no other way. Z-Moves has brought that level of diversity to the table, which elevates the offensive presence of already good Pokemon, and makes other previously unviable Pokemon like Salazzle, Skarmory to become viable.

Now, you might be thinking "How could this possibly be healthy for 1v1 as a metagame?". The simple answer is that viable Pokemon are always going to be viable, and less viable or unviable ones are going to stay less viable or unviable regardless of Z-Move presence, with some notable exceptions being Tapu Koko and Mimikyu. What Z Moves did to the meta was to increase the power level of the meta (and balance it, but that's for another point altogether).

• Playstyle balance:

Z Moves provide options for all styles of play ranging from HyperOffense (Examples of Donphan, Primarina) to Setup Offense(Zygarde,Snorlax, Buzzwole) to Stall(Examples of Blissey, Umbreon, Quagsire) and other conceivable style of play. A no Z-move metagame was a living nightmare for a hyper-offense person;in gen 6 (the closest available reference to a developed no Z 1v1 metagame), predominant fast offense in the first part of the metagame followed by predominant bulky offense in the latter part became the only effective gameplay. I am not criticizing how things panned out in gen 6; but I do feel that various playstyles have been made possible by the inclusion (and the counters thereof) of Z Moves, and this is one of the main reasons I feel that Z Moves should not be banned.



Again, a question might arise as to this point's relevance. As for that, a healthy and a competitive metagame is one in which a player does not win tournaments or ladder using only a certain playstyle, ie, a player is as likely to win in a competitve arena using (say) stall as he is using (again, say)hyper offense. And Z Moves bring that into play, and the game seems to be at a balance bar a few Pokemon which seem to shift the balance.

• Introduction of skill :

Generation 7 brought Z Moves into the picture, and in the very early phases of gen71v1, it seemed as though Z Moves are going to shift the meta away from the skill-based metagame it was in generation. But as time progressed, it became increasingly clear that Z-Moves weren't all about the mindless 1 hit wonder it was touted and assumed to be, but far more than that. It gave rise to a meta which becomes skill-based, because "skill", as is popularly defined, means that one relies more on skill and brains that mere "sheer power",and Z Moves did exactly that by boosting every aspect of that process by providing a tool to assist in all aspects.


This might again beg the question as to how this exactly makes it allowable to the meta. And, as to that, (in my opinion) anything which allows skill-based play should be allowed in meta. I feel this because there is no point brooding over a meta being based off no skill if the skill-inducing and skill-based elements are removed.

I might not get the chance to post something this big, so i'll cram my opinions into one post...

THOUGHTS ON TAPU KOKO :

Looks overly familiar? If not, you have not seen the name "gen71v1" in your life. Such is its omniscient presence in the meta that despite being a newcomer, it has always been very much in usage

Hide

<-- December 2016

<-- January 2017

<-- February 2017

<-- March 2017

<-- April 2017

<-- May 2017

<-- June 2017

<-- July 2017

<-- August 2017

<-- September 2017

<-- October 2017

<-- November 2017

<-- December 2017

<-- January 2018

<-- February 2018

I wouldn't even have to pull up these stats for any 1v1 to know how centralising Koko is to teambuilding. Now, before USUM, a basic set was used to demolish most of the used Pokemon

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or) 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (or) Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunder
- Substitute
- Charge
- Taunt

Soon, this set found itself to be countered(not so) easily, with the most prominent ones being Mega Charizard X, bulky Mega Metagross, and Snorlax. And so, an upgraded version of this set without the Substitute part was made, and that soon took(and takes) centrestage in the current meta:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Now, this set makes countering Tapu Koko very difficult, and its counters are, without exception, Ground-types and bulky Grass-types, both of which wins only by virtue of its typing. I believe this all of these factors (consistently centralising high usage, ability to smash most of meta, and having limited counters) pushes Koko to the "broken" and "banworthy" category. So, my stand is BAN TAPU KOKO.




P.S. : Please don't start dissecting my post to point out mistakes in logic; I'm pretty sure I've worded many parts poorly, and I'll happily discuss them over PMs.

 

[RunWithTheScizors]

Hi everyone

Marshadow has been legal for 2 days as of this post. The council agreed that his Z-Move was overpowering and was rightfully banned from usage but without it, Marsh apparently should be balanced.

Let's see if this is the case. I'm gonna use the "Glyx" method on the current VR, showing how Marsh's ghostium set stacks up with the rest of the meta.

Hide

S Rank

Gyarados-Mega
-Can cripple it with WillOWisp, Bulk Up, and even Spectral Thief its boosts

Tapu Koko
-To DEG's pain this is a loss, and one of the few nonspecific checks

A+ Rank

Charizard-Mega-X
-Same case as gyarados, but he can't get burned. Rock tomb tames the speed boost

Dragonite
-Most physical dnite are beaten but flyinium and z-haze win

Magearna
-Man Bagearna

Metagross-Mega
-A check, but it has to run extremely bulky offense and zen headbutt

Mimikyu
-Curse is beaten, but z attacks win

A Rank

Charizard-Mega-Y
-I assume never ending nightmare can kill timid nuke but probably not bulky variants

Landorus-Therian
-Beats groundium, killed by flyinium

Snorlax
-MarshC Hammer

Tapu Lele
-Scarf Lele is a meme, but is otherwise countered

Zygarde-Complete
-This is a very ugly matchup for Zygod. Everything it does is crippled, walled, and its boosts are stolen

A- Rank

Aegislash
-Shadow sneak probably doesnt kill because marsh isnt frail

Genesect
-Probably beaten by ghostium

Lopunny-Mega
-Fake Out Giga Impact thanks to scrappy

Magnezone
-Sturdy sures helps magnezone out

Mawile-Mega
-Play rough kills

Porygon-Z
-OHKOed by close combat

Slowbro-Mega
-OHKOed by NEM

Venusaur-Mega
-Subbed, set up on, and NEM

B+ Rank

Aggron-Mega
-Substitute wins marsh this one

Blaziken
-Marsh can sub turn one and spectral thief him

Donphan
-Will o wisp into bulk into ghostium might work

Gardevoir-Mega
-NEM

Golem
-Same case as Phan

Greninja
-Specs loses to CC, and scarf could even be tanked but Hydro Cannon might OHKO

Jumpluff
-Substitute. Cya buddy xD

Naganadel
-NEM. What scarf? Where?

Pinsir-Mega
-Spectral thief bypasses subs and steals bulk up, but repeated quick attacks could win

Primarina
-SSSSS probably OHKOed back in the day but ghostium is a roll (87.5% OHKO on 252hp/0def prima

Tapu Fini
-Fini probably wins this matchup

B Rank

Altaria-Mega
-Pixilate hyper voice bypasses marsh's sub and wins

Chansey
-Close combat. Even if it tanks it, Counter doesnt work

Ferrothorn
-Substitute

Garchomp
-Ice Punch wins, but otherwise Marsh might lose this one

Heatran
-Close combat and maybe subs

Heracross-Mega
-WoW into Bulk Up into z. Skill link attacks are resisted by ghost/fighting

Kartana
-Bulk up into z. Scarf is rare tho

Meloetta
-PHEW. Normal type saves it

Mew
-Eyy at least Marsh checks Kew™

Necrozma
-Good, a necrozma check

Sableye-Mega
-Probably stalls marsh

Sawk
-Ghost typing and will o wisp

Tyranitar-Mega
-Close combat

B- Rank

Blastoise-Mega
-Gets subbed and killed

Blissey
-Close combat

Buzzwole
-Subbed on, burned, and stolen boosts

Celesteela
-Sub wins on stallisteela but specs air slash wins

Crustle
-Burned, and stolen boosts. An emergency counter doesnt affect

Diancie-Mega
-Some sets run iron head, and NEM kills uninvested mega

Durant
-Burned, and its attacks are resisted

Gengar-Mega
-Max speed wins with a shadow ball but anything less than 383 probably loses

Hoopa-Unbound
-NEM should kill. Scarf wins tho

Kommo-o
-Sub cant save marsh

Swampert-Mega
-Burned and set up on

Togekiss
-Scarf. SCARF. Its Jirachi's counterpart

Whimsicott
-Spectral thief bypasses sub

C+ Rank

Archeops
-Its usually banded and scarf's only chance of winning is fly, which is two turned and subbed. Otherwise NEM

Avalugg
-Burned and set up on. Curse is stolen

Camerupt-Mega
-I dont think either can OHKO eachother but that means Marsh wins

Carracosta
-Burned, set up on, shell smash stolen

Excadrill
-Scarf cant kill, and close combat beats everything else.

Gallade-Mega
-NEM

Latios
-NEM, loses to scarf

Lucario-Mega
-Close combat

Marowak-Alola
-NEM

Medicham-Mega
-NEM

Pheromosa
-Technician shadow sneak hurts. Marsh resists all its stab and tanks ice beam

Porygon2
-Sub and close combat

Scizor-Mega
-Burned, set up on, steals Curse/sd. Why was this thing legalized lol

Tapu Bulu
-Burned, set up on

Terrakion
-Burned, close combat

Umbreon
-Sub into close combat because of z-charm

Victini
-NEM. Maybe scarf vcreate but thats low ladder

Volcarona
-NEM, or even technician rock tomb

C Rank

Blacephalon
-Technician shadow sneak

Deoxys-S
-Shadow sneak might not OHKO. Offensive sets no shadow sneaked can win, but stall sets's subs are bypassed

Entei
-Bulk up into NEM. Sub if needed

Garchomp-Mega
-Burned bulk up NEM or even ice punch

Haxorus
-Scarf outrage is powerful. Anything else burned and killed

Hydreigon
-C sure has a lot of scarf. Specs is close combat'ed

Infernape
-NEM

Keldeo
-I dont think marsh lives hydro vortex but NEM is a threat

Landorus
-Rename C rank into half scarf rank

Latias-Mega
-NEM

Nihilego
-NEM

Ninetales-Alola
-Iron head is rare but usuable. NEM probably OHKOs since Primarina dies to it most of the time

Pidgeot-Mega
-Technician rock tomb might be tanked, but either way you deal with STAB no-guard hurricane. Its called bird jesus for a reason

Relicanth
-Burned, set up on, and killed

Thundurus-Therian
-NEM is very stronk and i dont think thunderpants OHKOs

C- Rank

Hitmonlee
-Ghost typing

Manectric-Mega
-Intimidate hurts but a set up into NEM might do the trick

Pyukumuku
-Sub and attack him so toxic doesnt work and counter cant hit anyways

Quagsire
-Steal his boosts and kill him. Make sure to sub

Rhyperior
-Burned, set up on, and close combat'ed

Serperior
-NEM, i know from experience that he tanks leaf storm. Watch out for glare tho

Salazzle
-NEM cuz its bulk sucks

Skarmory
-Burn it, set up, and steal SD.

Stakataka
-Close combat

Suicune
-Sub and set up, but i think it can break you with scald


D Rank

Abomasnow-Mega
-Close combat

Alakazam-Mega
-Technician shadow sneak beats any zam

Aron
-Endeavor cant even hit you so you can sub and bulk up 30something times to troll or if your opponent forfeits you still win

Azumarill
-Sub, and steal belly drum

Barbaracle
-Burn, sub, steal shell smash, and close combat

Clefable
-Sub and steal cosmic power. But moonblasts might beat it

Dusclops
-NEM

Sceptile
-Ice punch, but mega outspeeds and frenzy plants

Slaking
-Sub its attempts to attack you

Smeargle
-Close combat it. The ultra-rare FEARgle doesnt hit ghost

Stunfisk
-Sub yawn and kill it

Type: Null
-Close combat. I doubt it can hit you but burn it anyways

Vivillon
-NEM, or sub sleep powder

Volcanion
-Bulk up into NEM could probably win but its attacks with specs or a zmove beats it

Do not use

Ditto
-Shadow sneak with its scarf wont OHKO as long as you run some bulk, and you NEM it in return

Magnemite
-Sub. Stop using this thing

(There is incosistencies only because this takes a while)

This next piece is important. Remember that STAB makes a z-move a nuke. Using this information, we can compare NEM's BP 175 (262 w/ STAB) to SSSSS' BP 195 (292 w/ STAB). We may have banned the signature Z-Move, but its power was technically only reduced by 20 (30). It still hits like a truck, sadly.

Now the analysis. It uses CC/ST/WoW/Sub, and can swap some of these out for Ice Punch, Iron head, Shadow Sneak, and Fire Punch. The vast majority of the physical meta loses to the main combo of WoW, Sub, and Spectral Thief, and ZardX to rock tomb. The frail special meta loses to the z-move but the bulky ones can survive and can kill it. Notice how a bunch of mons have to use a scarf in order to beat it, and some of those risk tons of versatility and winning matchups by doing so. Marsh can beat the meta with 2 if not 3 sets; Ghostium (Sub/WoW/CC/ST), Band (ST,SS,CC,filler). You can add bulk up to the ghostium and rock tomb to band as well, but remember that it can still STEAL the boosts.

So yea, its a bit unhealthy as of right now, because its checks are either outclassed by their own most optimal sets or not used much. You can prove me wrong otherwise, and who knows if its April Fools (It's not).

EDIT: Know how Koko checks this guy? It's making Koko's usage skyrocket!

(This took a while to make! Please respect this post!)
EDIT: RIP my work, but at least the problem that 3-0d my team is gone


Thanks

 

[DEG]

As the great LucarioAidan once said;

Marshadow unban: Leet me piece this together to try to figure something out. 1v1 starts of with a 1. The first letter of the alphabet is A. So let's start off with
A.
They unbanned Marshadow from 1v1 on the site Pokemon Showdown. Pokemon. Pokemon starts with
P.
The council made reasonings to unban Marshadow and why they deemed Marshadow without Marshadium Z not broken. Reasonings starts with a
R.
UnleashOurPassion makes this post in 1st person therefore saying I alot in the post.
I.

They banned it bcz it used to give half the meta a L.
L.

We should feel free to leave our thoughts on the subject and how we feel. Feel and free starts with a F
F.

UnleashOurPassion made a post on Marshadow and the unban of the mon and the ban of its z move. UnleashOurPassion has an O in it to start Our.
O.

The Dark Alakazam liked UOP's post. The Dark Alakazam has 15 letters in the name. U know what else represents 15 u may be asking? O is the 15th letter is the alphabet.
O.

LucarioAidan is writing this post. LucarioAidan starts with an L.
L.

The council didnt hold a Suspect as they deemed it to be able to be decided by council and the help of active 1v1 players. Suspect starts with an S
S.

Now take the letters after each paragraph and what does that spell?

A.
P.
R.
I.
L.
F.
O.
O.
L.
S.

Marshadow is now RE-BANNED from 1v1. Happy April fools!

Please stay atti ly

 

[DEG]

Congratulations Undecided Days for winning March's Monthly Championship.

April's Schedule;

 

[Landon]

Congratulations undecided days, but don't think i'll forget that MnM round robin tour. Anyway, i want to discuss a set i've been having a lot of succsess with: deoxys speed. here's the set:

Deoxys-Speed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 60 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Amnesia
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Taunt

i've wrecked havoc across the meta with this and i think it's banworthy. it can run specs psycho boost, Z-detect and this. I thought i'd just put that forward that to everyone

I agree that Deoxys-Speed is actually a pretty good mon, but it is definitely not ban worthy. You didn't even give any reasons to why it is ban worthy in your opinoin. You just stated that "i've wrecked havoc across the meta with this and i think it's banworthy." That isn't an actual reason to ban something.

 

[Felucia]

it can counter basically everything throughout various sets. it deserves at least a boost on viability.

Examples of what it beats and how it beats them would be appreciated, as to my understanding this mon struggles to beat most teams reliably (most teams happen to have matching typing that lets them take care of it with ease).

Also posts about viability generally go here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3592842/

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

ah, gotcha

also, gyarados is so overrated. it actually doesn't beat much. basically all the tapus can beat it as well as stall mons and very strong special attackers. i could go on but i'm bored already adhd

sure gyra may lose to a few top mons, but its ability, moves, and stats compensate and demolish the "silent majority" of the meta. ironically, it helps define the meta, shutting down niche mons that try to pop up and get cheap wins. it's consistently good, which justifies its top presence. im sure there's a bunch of mons that lost to all the tapus,(mainly because tapus are decent mons), so they cant, in turn, justify their existence. gyra may drop, but since the turn of sm, nothing has changed; there even was a petition to try to ban it!

 

[ZeroPlasmaFist]

why didn't it get banned if it's 'so good'

sure gyra may lose to a few top mons, but its ability, moves, and stats compensate and demolish the "silent majority" of the meta. ironically, it helps define the meta, shutting down niche mons that try to pop up and get cheap wins. it's consistently good, which justifies its top presence. im sure there's a bunch of mons that lost to all the tapus,(mainly because tapus are decent mons), so they cant, in turn, justify their existence. gyra may drop, but since the turn of sm, nothing has changed; there even was a petition to try to ban it!

i'm not denying it's a good mon i'm just saying it's way overrated

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

why didn't it get banned if it's 'so good'


i'm not denying it's a good mon i'm just saying it's way overrated

it's good, just not bannable. ~~like kyub~~
obviously it isn't overrated if people still use it consistently(check the usage stats yourself because I didnt). part of the reason it isn't overrated is because it's good enough, not to be overrated. but of course we all have our opinions so I don't really wanna push my views on you, so thats that I'll pull this--> you can message me on showdown I you have further inquiries.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

So i don't know who to ask about this so i'll put this here.
With the start of pl I've been getting into and building a lot of teams for 1v1 UU. Now as one might be able to see on the front page of this forum there is a introduction to 1v1 UU thing which is missing a threat list, viability rankings, sample teams, and other resources that it probably should have if we're going to have it as a om in official tours. So if any mods read this post I would just like them to know that I am 100% willing to make these resources for UU. If so just message me on discord/smogon and I'll get right to it

Sidenote- Which usage stats are 1v1 UU taken from?

 

[ayedan]

So i don't know who to ask about this so i'll put this here.
With the start of pl I've been getting into and building a lot of teams for 1v1 UU. Now as one might be able to see on the front page of this forum there is a introduction to 1v1 UU thing which is missing a threat list, viability rankings, sample teams, and other resources that it probably should have if we're going to have it as a om in official tours. So if any mods read this post I would just like them to know that I am 100% willing to make these resources for UU. If so just message me on discord/smogon and I'll get right to it

Delete this if wanted but, I was thinking the same for 1v1 UU, as a matter of fact, i posted on it on 1v1 boards. I hope i can help and if you guys want help hit me up on discord/ps/smogon. I want to help this meta :)

 

[adfjo]

What are some good off-meta replacements of meta mons? For example, Togedemaru for one of the classic Sturdies, or Torkoal instead of Snorlax for the Yawn + Protect.

totally not needing help on my meme account because i didnt listen to whoever said sawsbuck sucks and used it

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

What are some good off-meta replacements of meta mons? For example, Togedemaru for one of the classic Sturdies, or Torkoal instead of Snorlax for the Yawn + Protect.

totally not needing help on my meme account because i didnt listen to whoever said sawsbuck sucks and used it

I find hoopa-u to be an all-around good replacement to some offensively oriented "top presence mons." it's able to fight on both sides on the spectrum, take down other top mons, and still have the versatility to break down teams. its dual stab has solid enough coverage, but paired with other moves with fighting and grass coverage help it run as a surprisingly effective presence. its evs are also very flexible, allowing it to run defense to tank physical hits while maintaining its attacks with an accompanying item. the best set is probably the bulky specs with dark physic grass knot(for gyra) and filler, but good memes include fightium mixed.

 

[ayedan]

I cant really post shit bcz im in school so fast little thing. Can u guys start writing meaningful posts and not 1 liners like this

haxorus is the new gyarados in uu (or mega ampharos), and mega altaria just got godly.

This thread is for well written posts and not really anything else. I think the council would agree with me on this.