Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[ryyjyywyy]

Still waiting for an answer...

Before we dive into what other Pokemon are broken or not in the 1v1 meta, I am hoping we can put the sleep issue to rest.

"lets finally put it to rest even though we had 6+ somgon pages of discussion over it and a suspect test"

In this previous post, it was mentioned that sleep inducing moves directly fit the definitions of banable mechanics. At this time, I have still yet to see a post that describes how they do not meet the definition of banable.

maybe you should go and read the numerous amounts of discussion that was had on this rather than acting like noone ever posted a single thing for sleep. There was plenty of valid arguments and just because you think only one was coherent (or more coherent than others) doesnt make that true

 

[Kaif]

Alright, it's been a while since I've done one of these. S/o Uselesscrab for motivation.

This is Heatran! The Lava Dome Pokemon! Pokemonology aside, Heatran is a fierce threat in the tier that is known as 1v1.

Notable Heatran sets (including offsets)

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 248 SpA / 36 SpD / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Flash Cannon / Taunt / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power / Taunt / Hidden Power [Ice]

This is the most used Heatran set afaik.

Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power
- Overheat

bait set

Heatran @ Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt

this is also a set lol

Heatran @ Groundium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt

not that great of a set, but imo it still counts (even tho its outclassed)

Heatran @ Steelium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt

dont use this unless u want to meme

Now that all that's been named, you may want to say "Oh but Kaif, that loses to lando-t and Mega-Gyarados". That's where my friend comes in.
Introducing!

This is Mega-Altaria!! My second favourite pokemon and the Humming Pokemon! (Also known as Cloudy Boi)

That aside, Mega-Altaria compliments Heatran IMMENSELY well and proves itself to be a decent pokemon itself.

Notable Mega-Altaria Sets!

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice / Growl / Moonblast
- Cotton Guard
- Roost / Fire Blast / Rest / Confide / Bulldoze
- Substitute / Fire Blast / Rest / Confide / Bulldoze

This is the classic Stall Altaria we see nowadays, recommend using this.

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 104 HP / 96 Atk / 104 Def / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Giga Impact
- Return / Bulldoze
- Substitute / Bulldoze

physical set that is very good in certain teams.

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 104 HP / 104 Def / 204 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hyper Beam
- Fire Blast
- Sing / Bulldoze

This is a special set which is similar to the physical one expect it does not have a boosting move

We have the duo, the core known as Heataria. Since ya'll massive posters like to do vr thingies I'll do that too

VR Matchups

HW = Heatran Win AW = Altaria Win. BW = Both Win. HL = Heatran Loss. AL = Altaria Loss. BL = Both Loss (Note: These are simply what is supposed to happen with standard sets)
S Rank

Charizard-Mega-X
HW if Z-Ground and AW on all sets besides maybe the special set

Charizard-Mega-Y
HW if zard does not carry Focus Blast and Altaria is a "depends"
[21:25:53] The Dark Alakazam: bc air slash cheese will beat alt almost every time
[21:25:57] The Dark Alakazam: u need ddance
[21:26:01] Freddy Kyogre: most char y dont carry roost

Gyarados-Mega
HL unless the opponent does not have waterfall and you are Grassium-Z. AW most of the time unless waterfall flinches.

A+ Rank

Dragonite
HL most of the time unless u have hp ice and he doesn't have earthquake (dont depend on tran to 1v1 dnite) AW most of the time
Magearna
HW all the time unless you miss overheats and AL
Metagross-Mega
HW on Air Balloon tran and AL every time
A Rank
Landorus-Therian
HL and AW (most of the time)
Porygon-Z
HW if scarf, HL if Z-Conversion. AL every time iirc
Tapu Lele
HW. AL.
Zygarde-Complete
HL. AW.

A- Rank

Greninja
HL. This kind of depends on the greninja set but most of the time it's an AW
Lopunny-Mega
HL. AW.
Magnezone
HW. AL if you do not carry earthquake and the magnezone has flash cannon
Slowbro-Mega
HL. AW (?) I don't know about the Altaria + Slowbro interaction so someone clarify here please
Venusaur-Mega
HW if venu doesn't have eq and AL

B+ Rank

Aegislash
HW. AL unless alt has eq and is spdef bulky af
Altaria-Mega
HW with flash cannon. (not doing mirror)
Donphan
AW. HL.

ok so I got really fucking bored at this point so I'm going to stop doing vr matchups. Point is that Heataria is very effective

Now that you've read my post be sure to leave a like and subscribe. What are your thoughts on this combo? Do you think it's bad? Good? Or even overpowered?

WE AINT ENDING THERE.

Teammates that I like with Heataria!

Deoxys-Speed: I like DeoS with heataria because well it removes most of the 50/50s that I have to face. Why 50/50 with tran or alt when you can click Specs Psycho Boost and win the game?

Special Mention to Normalium-Z Meloetta - It overlaps with the strengths and weaknesses of Heataria but I have found success with it.

lul this was so short but painful to do

 

[Kowasabii]

L means Dnite loses
W means Dnite wins
S Rank

L, Dragonite loses to bulky Will-o zard, which is one of/the best Zard X set to run. Phys Def char x has trouble with Special Dnite, but Spdef will o zard x beats it all 4 dragonite variants (Rock Tomb brings a non-mega zard using WoW to Z-killing range, so it's 50/50 in favor of Dragonite, since WoW accuracy)

Special dnite beats this when they go for will-o, so it's a mostly L, but Dnite still checks

 

[Squid Ninja]

I skimmed the thread about Z-Detect, and I found no hugely relevant discussion regarding it. But it has to go.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-825632951

(turns 19, 21 and 35 are the worst offenders)

This replay is baffling. 35 turns in a 1v1 match is already ridiculous, but there were plenty of chances for the game to end until the Evasion boost RNG stopped me. With Sub + Recover, Z-Detect means you have to hit an opponent 5 straight times on 1,33 evasion to win. That's playing off RNG in a ridiculous way.

I don't think Z-moves should be banned, they work in this metagame in many ways. But Detect should go, as every Pokemon who learns it also gets Protect (which does the exact same thing and doesn't have a broken Z-move). Also, Detect's effect is what makes this strategy even less healthy. If someone were to replace it with Z-Magnet Rise or Z-Lucky Chant, they risk getting hit hard by the opponent in the meantime. Z-Detect is a free evasion boost (protecting from Fake Out too) and a move that is otherwise useless with Protect existing.

 

[The Official Glyx]

I skimmed the thread about Z-Detect, and I found no hugely relevant discussion regarding it. But it has to go.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-825632951

(turns 19, 21 and 35 are the worst offenders)

This replay is baffling. 35 turns in a 1v1 match is already ridiculous, but there were plenty of chances for the game to end until the Evasion boost RNG stopped me. With Sub + Recover, Z-Detect means you have to hit an opponent 5 straight times on 1,33 evasion to win. That's playing off RNG in a ridiculous way.

I don't think Z-moves should be banned, they work in this metagame in many ways. But Detect should go, as every Pokemon who learns it also gets Protect (which does the exact same thing and doesn't have a broken Z-move). Also, Detect's effect is what makes this strategy even less healthy. If someone were to replace it with Z-Magnet Rise or Z-Lucky Chant, they risk getting hit hard by the opponent in the meantime. Z-Detect is a free evasion boost (protecting from Fake Out too) and a move that is otherwise useless with Protect existing.

Z-Evasion was an all-inclusive discussion affecting every Gen 7 metagame/tier. Discussion on the subject was undergone here before ultimately being unbanned, with each individual tier/meta having the ability to ban it if necessary.

As for whether or not it should be banned, nobody has really brought it up much at all, so feel free to discuss @ everyone else.

 

[Squid Ninja]

Z-Evasion was an all-inclusive discussion affecting every Gen 7 metagame/tier. Discussion on the subject was undergone here before ultimately being unbanned, with each individual tier/meta having the ability to ban it if necessary.

As for whether or not it should be banned, nobody has really brought it up much at all, so feel free to discuss @ everyone else.

Understood. I haven't really been following the tiers this gen (1v1 has been sort of a way to ease in back to the meta), so thank you for the explanation.

I don't think Z-Evasion moves are broken per se, but Detect's regular effect paired with it make it too much IMO (prevents Fake Out, weakens Z-Moves, gives a free boost etc).

 

[Kaif]

I skimmed the thread about Z-Detect, and I found no hugely relevant discussion regarding it. But it has to go.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-825632951

(turns 19, 21 and 35 are the worst offenders)

This replay is baffling. 35 turns in a 1v1 match is already ridiculous, but there were plenty of chances for the game to end until the Evasion boost RNG stopped me. With Sub + Recover, Z-Detect means you have to hit an opponent 5 straight times on 1,33 evasion to win. That's playing off RNG in a ridiculous way.

I don't think Z-moves should be banned, they work in this metagame in many ways. But Detect should go, as every Pokemon who learns it also gets Protect (which does the exact same thing and doesn't have a broken Z-move). Also, Detect's effect is what makes this strategy even less healthy. If someone were to replace it with Z-Magnet Rise or Z-Lucky Chant, they risk getting hit hard by the opponent in the meantime. Z-Detect is a free evasion boost (protecting from Fake Out too) and a move that is otherwise useless with Protect existing.

z-Detect Deoxys-Speed is a game of dice, you may win and you may lose. It's literal rng. Even though this set is cancerous as hell. It does not need to go as its presence in the metagame is very low in my opinion and has a reasonable amount of counters

 

[discoplaygames]

I'd like to bring attention to a pokemon that has had discussion, but has fell more to the wayside as the more pressing Mimikyu suspect occured. However, now that Mimikyu is gone, I'd like to bring to attention a Pokemon that I believe to be ban/suspect worthy. The Pokemon that I'm talking about is everyone favorite (and only) legal Deoxys

Deoxys-Speed



Now, what makes this Pokemon worthy of a ban, in my opinion? It's not consistent, not broken, not even very good, with it being at C+ on the viability rankings as of this post. But for what it lacks in viability, it makes up for in spades with being uncompetitive.

For reference, here is the definition of uncompetitive:
"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."




So what make's Deoxys-Speed Uncompetitive?

In my opinion, 2 of Deoxy's sets harm the general health of the metagame, so lets go over each of them, shall we?


Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Taunt

(ev's can be subject to change)

This set is very straightforward. boost the defense which blocks the damage of the Pokemon your facing, using recovery when necessary, and taunting to block opposing setup. pp stall your opponent down with pressure and win. However, this strategy is weak to one fundamental mechanic: crits. This makes this set very luck based, as facing it without some of the few counter's for it have to roll the odd's on if you will crit it, which reduces the game's outcome to each person waiting for if the person facing Deo-s will crit before losing all of it's attacks pp. This makes this set severely uncompetitive, as it brings the set down to luck.


Deoxys-Speed @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Detect
- Substitute
- Recover
- Night Shade

This set is also very rng reliant. it is quite inconsistent, but soft check's everything on the vr by the way of boosting it's evasiveness to dodge incoming attacks, and wearing your Pokemon down. This also factors into Deo-s being uncompetitive by the way of basing it's wins on hax. While not very good, it still provides a way to use rng to win your games


Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Rock] / Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Rock] / Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Rock] / Thunderbolt

This is entirely not luck based and not broken or uncompetitive in the slightest, but it is notable in that it can beat many of the Pokemon that consistently beats the pp stall set. This helps Deo-s in playing mind games with the opponent, and the 50/50's it creates furthers the uncompetitiveness of the Pokemon.


Why should it be suspected?

When Deo-s is used, it takes the game out of the players hands, and hands it over to the random number generator that determines if a player crits or not. This fits the very definition of taking the game out of the player's hands. This is considered uncompetitive, and therefore, is damaging to the metagame and should be suspected.

Counterpoint's and rebuttal's (I'll add more too include more counterpoint's people bring up more counterpoints that I could think of initially coming up with this thread)

Counterpoint 1:

Deoxys-Speed isn't a good pokemon in 1v1, so it shouldn't be banned.

While Deo-S isn't very good, what it does do is make it's fight's luck based. this makes it uncompetitive, which isn't the same as being broken. This also held true for Jirachi, which wasn't top tier when it was banned for being uncompetitive. (It was B- when it was banned, correct me if I'm wrong)

Counterpoint 2:

Isn't bringing coverage move's like focus blast luck based?

Bringing those move's are not the same as Deoxys-speed. When bringing move's with low accuracy, you bring them because you need to patch a weakness in your team, the accuracy is just a negative side effect. When using Deo-s, your are basing your entire strategy for the Pokemon on luck, which is much more uncompetitive.


If Suspecting Deoxys is out of the question for you, then I hope you consider the merits of a detect ban, as when powered into a z-move it raises the user's evasiveness, which makes 1. violates evasion clause 2. protects the user while boosting evasion and 3. wouldn't negatively effect any Pokemon's viability,as all of the Pokemon with detect get protect.





Hopefully this post showed you why I believe Deo-S is ban worthy. Well, I hoped you enjoyed reading, and I look forward to further discussion on this topic.

 

[rumia]

Very interesting take on a call for ban, Disco. I personally don't believe Deo-S shouldn't be banned, but you make some interesting points. While Z-Detect does boost your evasion, it technically does not violate the Evasion clause due to the clause stating the use of Double Team and Minimize is prohibited. Plus, it isn't spammable so a +1 in evasion isn't quite detrimental. Now shifting our focus on offensive Deo, I personally believe it isn't that good at covering its main counters when it comes to the defensive set, Incineroar coming to mind. Finally, while I do see Deo every once in a while on the ladder, it isn't much of a nuisance in my personal opinion. It's more of a mon that can catch a good portion of the meta off-guard, such as Whimsicott.

 

[Elo Bandit]

Mimikyu ban reasoning video is out!

 

[Mrowsudyn]

Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Taunt

 

[Nalei]

Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Taunt

How does this prove anything? Your opponent was clearly very bad, the situation wasn't anything out of the ordinary, and Deoxys doesn't counter Charizard, even ignoring the possibility of crits.

 

[0o0J]

I was playing around with some different sets yesterday, and I came across this set. It is a bit of a niche set. It relies on your opponent not OHKO you, or if they use a stat boosting move at the start. You use dig to start off with and if they don't OHKO you. Then you use Copycat. Because of prankster it always goes first and finishes last.

Dig (Riolu) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
- Dig
- Copycat
- Bulk Up
- Blaze Kick

 

[Tol]

I was playing around with some different sets yesterday, and I came across this set. It is a bit of a niche set. It relies on your opponent not OHKO you, or if they use a stat boosting move at the start. You use dig to start off with and if they don't OHKO you. Then you use Copycat. Because of prankster it always goes first and finishes last.

Dig (Riolu) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
- Dig
- Copycat
- Bulk Up
- Blaze Kick

This set is just plain bad now that custap+endure doesn't work. In theory it could cheese wins against bad players but in practice no dice. At least run eviolite if you're going to do this.

 

[Mrowsudyn]

How does this prove anything? Your opponent was clearly very bad, the situation wasn't anything out of the ordinary, and Deoxys doesn't counter Charizard, even ignoring the possibility of crits.

I was simply trying to show people who are not familiar with it how it worked, I don't know why the F#$@ his Charizard used fly on the first turn.

 

[Foxxeyy]

Hey 1v1ers. So, I wanna get back into 1v1, I really regret quitting it, but I can’t build anymore and heck, idk what’s even been banned recently and what is good these days. I’m not using samples and I’m not using anyone else’s team, but I won’t be able to go past 1400s and I’ll be stuck in low ladder forever if I can’t build well. Any advice from anyone?

 

[Ginger Princess]

Hey 1v1ers. So, I wanna get back into 1v1, I really regret quitting it, but I can’t build anymore and heck, idk what’s even been banned recently and what is good these days. I’m not using samples and I’m not using anyone else’s team, but I won’t be able to go past 1400s and I’ll be stuck in low ladder forever if I can’t build well. Any advice from anyone?

Mimikyu Snorlax Jirachi Koko Kyub Deoxys defense Marshadow have all been banned. Dragonite Char X and Setup Magearna are amazing, and new additions in not only USUM but also innovations in the metagame have led to mons like Intimidate Incineroar and even Z-Conversion Shadow Ball Pz to be viable bulky offense options. In general eving for the most common threats (I choose to EV for Lopunny physically, Greninja or PZ specially) whenever possible will allow your team to excel and lure in threats while still hopefully beating threats. You’ll find that investing in bulk is much more important than investing in offense, and threats like bulky char x magearna and normalium pz can all get away with investing evs into bulk and still ko everything they need to and more. Have an answer to sleep trap mons like vivillon and jumpluff. Mons like Golem Donphan and even mega lopunny imo are all becoming less viable, as they are mostly one trick ponies and don’t have very favorable matchups vs the top threats (besides uninvested char x), and people are starting to ev for these threats as well

 

[Ginger Princess]

New Officials Schedule! This time we put a focus on Old Gens 1v1 instead of 1v1 OMs.
As you all know, officials are tournaments held in the 1v1 Room on Pokemon Showdown three times a day. The person at the end of the month who accumulates the highest score on the Official's Leaderboard will become a monthly voice in the room! Be sure to participate whenever you can so you can get that temporary Room Voice clout.
​

This schedule will go into effect starting November 10th. Don't get haxed!​

 

[Jamez]

Hey 1v1ers. So, I wanna get back into 1v1, I really regret quitting it, but I can’t build anymore and heck, idk what’s even been banned recently and what is good these days. I’m not using samples and I’m not using anyone else’s team, but I won’t be able to go past 1400s and I’ll be stuck in low ladder forever if I can’t build well. Any advice from anyone?

basically just make a team that does well vs the meta, mons like magearna, gyarados, zygarde and Dragonite are mons that can cover a lot, when building don’t leave any huge gaps to popular mons or a particular type. Anyways your play style takes practice, I started in February of 2018 and am usually 1600/1700 on ladder, I go by James155 or James154 on showdown so I’m usually on the upper part of the ladder. But using the right mons with the right sets that covers a lot of the current meta should do you fine on ladder, anyways gl

 

[Joker 1v1]

Using Rest to put opponents to sleep?!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-836030708

So I got bored & made this. By using Rest to fall asleep, you need only to Sleep Talk > Psycho Shift to not only put the opponent to sleep. (which I believe is a timed sleep due to rest, meaning you know when they will wake up) But you wake up from Rest. You need only to Nightmare & you win.

It's a simple set, just something kind of usable & stupid I came up with.​

 

[Felucia]

Hello 1v1 people!

The council detected something on our radars recently that required attention, so we had a vote that resulted in Quickbanning Detect.

The reasoning behind this is of course that its Z-Effect boosts Evasion but Detect differentiates from other Z-Status moves because of 2 qualities.
1. It's free to set up because it protects the user
2. The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

Edit: I forgot to explain why boosting evasion is bad because I deemed it trivial.
Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause, and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

 

[Ginger Princess]

1v1 people!

I take it Detect has been banned, then

I must say, the news came sooner than I expected

In the name of the metagame, you are under arrest, UOP

Are you threatening me, esteemed player?

The Council will decide your fate

I am the council

HRAAAAAAAAARRRGGGGHHH

 

[Elo Bandit]

Detect should be discussed and suspected properly, not quickbanned by the council with no community input.

In defense of Z-Detect:

Z-Detect has come under fire because of its perceived reliance on RNG to win matches. However, it simply isn't more reliant on RNG than any sleep move, or even Focus Blast. Pokemon using Z-Detect are using it alongside Substitute to extend the duration of matches and make a miss more likely.

Odds opponent misses at least one attack in five attempts (assuming 100% accuracy) is 100 - ( .75 ^ 5), or 76.27%.

This means if a Z-Detect Pokemon can achieve their win condition with the one "free" turn Z-Detect provides, they will win the match the majority of the time, more often than Focus Blast DeoS hits Heatran. Examples of Z-Detect Pokemon include Deoxys-Speed, Murkrow, Sableye, Riolu, Sceptile, and Raikou, among others.

To address the council's points:

>It's free to set up because it protects the user

"Free" in the sense that both the user and the opponent don't have to worry about damage for one turn. Not free in the sense that it takes up your item slot.

> The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

But the conversation is really about Z-Detect, a move which brings some viability to the low-ranked Pokemon mentioned earlier. While it's technically true that no pokemon with Detect lacks Protect, the moves still play differently in a Z-Crystal based meta. The base move != the Z-move.

>Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause

No, it's not. Evasion Clause is a very specific thing, it bans the two stackable evasion moves Double Team and Minimize. This is explicitly separate from Z-Evasion because of how Z-Evasion is limited to one use and takes up an item slot.

>and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

Z-Evasion movesets are just as valuable as any other moveset, for the reasons listed above. Z-Evasion strategies are simply not as RNG reliant as they appear, and they allow viable or alternate strategies for underused pokemon in the metagame.

Sorry for double posting, but I don't like to see drastic changes made with little to no discussion or reasoning behind them.

 

[ayedan]

Wow, this move was kinda uncalled for.

While I agree that Z-Detect can be found quite annoying and tough to play around, I truly haven't seen any discussion or talk amongst players about Z-Detect. I also don't see why we weren't asked about how we felt about the subject of Z-Detect and the problems that can come along with using it. I truly don't understand why the council would spontaneously ban it out of the blue. Also, we are 2 years into this meta and decide now is the time to quickban a Z-move/move? Personally, I think we should discuss this matter more rather than quickbanning and maybe even have a public suspect on it.

 

[The Official Glyx]

In defense of Z-Detect:

Z-Detect has come under fire because of its perceived reliance on RNG to win matches. However, it simply isn't more reliant on RNG than any sleep move, or even Focus Blast. Pokemon using Z-Detect are using it alongside Substitute to extend the duration of matches and make a miss more likely.

Odds opponent misses at least one attack in five attempts (assuming 100% accuracy) is 100 - ( .75 ^ 5), or 76.27%.

This means if a Z-Detect Pokemon can achieve their win condition with the one "free" turn Z-Detect provides, they will win the match the majority of the time, more often than Focus Blast DeoS hits Heatran. Examples of Z-Detect Pokemon include Deoxys-Speed, Murkrow, Sableye, Riolu, Sceptile, and Raikou, among others.

To address the council's points:

>It's free to set up because it protects the user

"Free" in the sense that both the user and the opponent don't have to worry about damage for one turn. Not free in the sense that it takes up your item slot.

> The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

But the conversation is really about Z-Detect, a move which brings some viability to the low-ranked Pokemon mentioned earlier. While it's technically true that no pokemon with Detect lacks Protect, the moves still play differently in a Z-Crystal based meta. The base move != the Z-move.

>Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause

No, it's not. Evasion Clause is a very specific thing, it bans the two stackable evasion moves Double Team and Minimize. This is explicitly separate from Z-Evasion because of how Z-Evasion is limited to one use and takes up an item slot.

>and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

Z-Evasion movesets are just as valuable as any other moveset, for the reasons listed above. Z-Evasion strategies are simply not as RNG reliant as they appear, and they allow viable or alternate strategies for underused pokemon in the metagame.

Sorry for double posting, but I don't like to see drastic changes made with little to no discussion or reasoning behind them.

Agree on pretty much all of this

Sorry for double posting, but I don't like to see drastic changes made with little to no discussion or reasoning behind them.

ESPECIALLY this. They added me to council and I still can't get these people to engage the community before making decisions-

> The base move brings nothing to the metagame, because every single user also has access to the move Protect, which has the same effect.

But the conversation is really about Z-Detect, a move which brings some viability to the low-ranked Pokemon mentioned earlier. While it's technically true that no pokemon with Detect lacks Protect, the moves still play differently in a Z-Crystal based meta. The base move != the Z-move.

While true, I'm not sure if banning Z-Detect is possible. I'm not a coder, but judging from how Z-status moves don't display as an individual move in the same way Z-attacks do (how Z-attacks display 0/1 PP after use while Z-status does not), I don't believe that Z-Detect is regarded as its own directly bannable move. This idea is also aided by the fact that you can't find any Z-status moves in the teambuilder. Because of this, banning Detect was the best course of action, in addition to the fact that Detect serves absolutely no purpose over Protect beyond being used with Fightinium for the sole purpose of boosting evasion.

>Evasion is banned by Evasion Clause

No, it's not. Evasion Clause is a very specific thing, it bans the two stackable evasion moves Double Team and Minimize. This is explicitly separate from Z-Evasion because of how Z-Evasion is limited to one use and takes up an item slot.

>and we seek to eliminate all instances of it where banning doesn't remove anything of value from the metagame.

Z-Evasion movesets are just as valuable as any other moveset, for the reasons listed above. Z-Evasion strategies are simply not as RNG reliant as they appear, and they allow viable or alternate strategies for underused pokemon in the metagame.

First, non-stackable evasion buffs have been banned before (see: Sand Veil and other similar abilities in gen 5)
Second, while I'm all in favor of breathing viability into otherwise bad mons, uncompetitive strategies ain't the way to do it. That kind of ideology treads on the fine slippery slope line between fair/competitive gameplay and outright allowing OHKO moves and Perish Song because they make Lapras more viable (or something akin to that example).