Resource SV Ubers Viability Rankings (Post DLC2)

[Red Raven]

did you check my calc?
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Collision Course vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 390-458 (84.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also terapagos can OHKO koraidon at +2 (which is surprisingly easy to get to)
+2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 344-406 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This doesn't even begin to address the point I made on why Terapagos is ass. Jesus

First of all, calcs is a really bad point of reference because if that's your main basis, we might as well put Haxorus in S+ rank because 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 344-416 (100.8 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Second of all, my entire point isn't about setup or calcs. It's the fact that you have to dedicate your tera slot which limits your flexibility. Tera is so valuable right not because it can make or break a game. One tera fairy might save your team from being pried apart from Koraidon while that same Koraidon can use tera fire to avoid burns and resist fairy or tera ghost to block extreme speed

And third of all, your entire calc argument is heavily flawed because Koraidon's literally doing over 80% with a move the it doesn't even use. More often than not, it uses low kick and those who might be feeling a bit frisky, close combat

Koraidon can simply U-turn out too since Terapagos ability works only once per game.

Not that Koraidon needs to switch out though

252 Atk Koraidon Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 248-294 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

And this is just Low Kick. Collision course practically oneshots if it's chipped.

252 Atk Koraidon Collision Course vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 414-488 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it's an offensive Terapagos set not running full HP...yeah things not looking too good for the turtle

Btw, Scarf Koraidon outspeeds Terapagos even after Rock Polish. Since Terapagos lacks recovery outside Rest, it's not that hard to overwhelm

Can someone explain to me please why a giant turtle that's sitting on a metal umbrella with giant gems around it somehow doesn't take full damage from low kick?

Putting more EV in defense doesn't change anything, it still gets 2hko by Koraidon no matter what. It's very weak as a setup sweeper, and there are over a dozen better setup sweeper in the tier. It's bulk isn't anything special, since it has no resistances or recovery, unlike actual tanks like Necrozma Dusk Mane/Ho-Oh.

You are severely overestimating its usefulness, even with tera it struggles to compete with Ubers Mon without tera, and this thing practically needs tera to not become completely deadweight (its base form would be average in OU, if lucky).

Since you are not very experience, I suggest you reach high ladder and become more knowledgeable on Ubers meta. A/A+ is reserved for the top Ubers mons, Terapagos will be lucky to go past C+ (I see it becoming unranked eventually, since nobody likes a tera hog which is a shitmon otherwise).

Also, you don't even need to reach high ladder. Even just being 1500 elo consistently will be enough. Uber ladder is broken because a 1400 players gets matched up against 1600 to 1800 player. Not all the time but it isn't uncommon either. That's why I think 1500 consistently would be a fine choice because that's the rating where people build teams to handle the meta but often times has trouble executing their team's gameplan

 

[TheTraininator]

I don’t think Terapagos is an A rank threat, but “ass” undersells it a bit. It requires good team support and Tera to work which is a huge commitment and that alone puts it out of the A-ranks, but it can do some pretty absurd things with Shed Tail support. Like Multiscale, Tera Shell stays active if behind a substitute at full HP, and will still proc afterward as well, making it significantly easier to set up multiple boosts and still have enough HP to live priority revenge kill attempts. I think it belongs somewhere in the B-ranks rather than the A-ranks or C-ranks.

 

[DaTruPro75]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-2018130442-owprw7ouy5g5r8y358c2041atupplvdpw Another sweep (got a bit lucky at the end but I wouldve simply rested after the Calm Minds)

Both players played this poorly. Your opponent gave damage on their Dialga-O (not even a good mon) for no reason, as well as giving their EKiller Arceus up to Koraidon (who they had no reliable counter for, unless it was Groudon, who they saced). A higher skilled player would've known that EKiller Arceus can't take out Koraidon unless it is -3 (or -2 with tera). Even if they didn't know that they should've atleast calced to make sure it KOs. They even had a shadow sneak Giratina-O in the back who could've both lowered Koraidon's HP and defense, as you are forced to scale shot, allowing EKiller arceus to pick up the KO. If they first went Giratina-O, they would've had a healthy Arceus (potentially with tera normal) on the field vs your Terapagos.

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 300-354 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(We can confirm Silk Scarf from the Koraidon calc earlier)
252+ SpA Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 148-174 (34.3 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Standard bulk for the Smogon set.)
Even if you are max special attack modest, Arceus can still get up either an SD into espeed, or 2 espeeds, putting you into range of Palkia or Eternatus. Yeah, it takes less with your 64 defense, no HP, but then you can be revenged even easier by Palkia or Eternatus.

It killed NDM from high health and chipped Ho-oh down to 10%, allowing arceus to sweep. Wouldve came back in if arceus died and RP swept again.

I wonder what other pokemon can easily take care of both DD Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh. Surely it wouldn't be a 135 special attack/135 speed dragon electric type which is S rank on the VR, right? And has the same options as a CM + Agility sweeper, but with the added benefit of being able to run both specs and scarf?

did you check my calc?
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Collision Course vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 390-458 (84.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is assuming you don't take any hazards chip whatsoever, which isn't very easy in a tier where NDM, Ting-Lu, Lando-T, Groudon, and Gliscor are all top tier. Even then, this is assuming Koraidon hasn't set up at all, and isn't running an item like LO (not too common now that loaded dice scale shot exists) or band. And Koraidon still lives the next hit anyways, so what's the point of using up your tera on a mon who can't even KO Koraidon, while you could tera something like Arceus-Fairy to live the hit and OHKO back, or better yet, go into something faster, like scarf Miraidon or Zacian-C.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Both players played this poorly. Your opponent gave damage on their Dialga-O (not even a good mon) for no reason, as well as giving their EKiller Arceus up to Koraidon (who they had no reliable counter for, unless it was Groudon, who they saced). A higher skilled player would've known that EKiller Arceus can't take out Koraidon unless it is -3 (or -2 with tera). Even if they didn't know that they should've atleast calced to make sure it KOs. They even had a shadow sneak Giratina-O in the back who could've both lowered Koraidon's HP and defense, as you are forced to scale shot, allowing EKiller arceus to pick up the KO. If they first went Giratina-O, they would've had a healthy Arceus (potentially with tera normal) on the field vs your Terapagos.

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar: 300-354 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(We can confirm Silk Scarf from the Koraidon calc earlier)
252+ SpA Tera Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 148-174 (34.3 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Standard bulk for the Smogon set.)
Even if you are max special attack modest, Arceus can still get up either an SD into espeed, or 2 espeeds, putting you into range of Palkia or Eternatus. Yeah, it takes less with your 64 defense, no HP, but then you can be revenged even easier by Palkia or Eternatus.


I wonder what other pokemon can easily take care of both DD Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh. Surely it wouldn't be a 135 special attack/135 speed dragon electric type which is S rank on the VR, right? And has the same options as a CM + Agility sweeper, but with the added benefit of being able to run both specs and scarf?


This is assuming you don't take any hazards chip whatsoever, which isn't very easy in a tier where NDM, Ting-Lu, Lando-T, Groudon, and Gliscor are all top tier. Even then, this is assuming Koraidon hasn't set up at all, and isn't running an item like LO (not too common now that loaded dice scale shot exists) or band. And Koraidon still lives the next hit anyways, so what's the point of using up your tera on a mon who can't even KO Koraidon, while you could tera something like Arceus-Fairy to live the hit and OHKO back, or better yet, go into something faster, like scarf Miraidon or Zacian-C.

Mhm, I almost never saw lando when I laddered tho…

 

[Pixilate]

Weighing in on this because I did the *tiniest* amount of self-study on Terapagos in preparation for the ban out of OU and right now it looks like Terapagos is the current topic of discussion soooooo:
https://pokepast.es/714aca71c69f5750

Note, there is a TON of just garbage angry ranting in there because i really wanted turtle to be good, but in all honesty it is just average if not slightly below...

There are a couple of major takeaways/comparisons I had from just sitting in the calculator sims for like an hour that I'd like to draw out here just in case nobody wants to read long pastebin with commentary every single set. Note that all these things also talk about Terapagos-Stellar specifically since running Terapagos without making use of the Stellar form is basically a death sentence at the Ubers power bracket:

• () - Koraidon is the bane of your existence, Miraidon to a lesser extent because if you're already set-up Miraidon becomes a lesser/non-threat. You can't assume that though, but Scarf Koraidon kills you 99/100 times. That 1/100 time is because you're like timid max speed and you're already sitting on 3+ rapid spins because turtle is so goddamn slow you need all that to outspeed...
• - In terms of just role itself, Terapagos struggles to bring anything unique and it functions closer to a utility/glue than a sweeper or breaker.
  • - Ubers is just blessed with so many options especially on the Calm Mind sweeper end it just doesn't help Terapagos' viability when a million flavors of Arceus can calm mind better than you because of recover and just have better utility moves to supplement overall. When it comes to demon dance sets, Arceus can straight up forego RP because its fast enough without it. Terapagos often feels like a sitting duck without RP/spin to boost its abysmal speed.
  • * - Although it feels great that Terapagos can run any item, it comes with the cost of basically consuming your Tera slot on team preview. It feels immensely horrible to forego leftovers for anything else because 160BHP gives you anywhere between 28-31 HP per turn depending on investment (which very few other Pokemon can actually boast about). Naturally, at Ubers power-level you'll end up with Zygarde-Complete comparisons which sadly bode poorly for the turtle. Although Zygarde-C is currently unavailable in SV, its inevitable return in the future is massive competition for Terapagos as a tanky set-up despite Terapagos being a special tank vs. Zygarde being a physical one. This is mostly due to stat construction, both share an idential speed tier, decent defensive stats, and massive HP pools, but Zygarde-C's BHP exceeds Terapagos-Stellar by a massive margin and doesn't cost a Tera slot which further emphasizes the opportunity cost of Terapagos' consumption of said Tera slot. They also share the ability to just ignore coverage moveslots since Tarrows and Starstorm-Stellar just bypass each moves' base typing's immunities, but Zygarde-C pulls ahead again because it has options to disrupt those getting in the way of its sweep with 100% accurate Glare whereas Turtle only has the chance to spread burn with the mediocre scorching sands. Honestly, Zygarde-C is the biggest inspiration for the majority of Terapagos sets because they are so similar with the exception of Zygarde being physical and Terapagos being special.
  • - If you do opt for scorching sands to spread burn and play some vin/cro-something CM set, this is what you're also facing competition from. Not a unique set even with Terapagos receiving the 1.2x bonus damage from Tera-Stellar every attack.
  • - You may also compete with this as a bulky set-up mon. NDM has both reliable recovery when running SD only and can occasionally run a demon set with RP/SD
  • - Let's actually get to the positives. Rapid spin is turtle's biggest boon because our Ubers hazard clearers are pretty much limited to Gira-O unless you're resorting to the OU mainstays of Great Tusk, Corviknight, etc. The difference between Gira and turtle is that Gira doesn't get an item because of Griseous Core, but spinblocks in return whereas the turtle can run leftovers or AV, but is locked into normal-typing defensively no thanks to its unique tera mechanics.
• - Special shoutout to this guy because if u stay then u can get multiple uses out of Tera Shell when ur behind sub.

Conclusion: I basically kinda hate building around this thing because it competes with a lot of Pokemon who accomplish its role with better defensive typing or just better stats as a whole without costing a tera slot. IMO the AV Pivot set in my paste is kind of my OC pls do not steal because the EVs are odd af and i worked so hard to build for a really unique team function in spite of its opportunity cost.

 

[DaTruPro75]

Mhm, I almost never saw lando when I laddered tho…

Ranked pretty high on the VR. Same tier as fellow grounds Ting-Lu and Groudon. Main thing it has over them is I'm pretty sure Intimidate (weakens Koraidon and the like), and U-Turn. It also can run Scarf ig.

 

[Colteor]

https://tiermaker.com/create/sv-ubers-dlc2-personal-viability-rankings-16558335

Ordered up until B- tier, and keep in mind meta is still young and things change quickly etc. Terapagos wasn't on here but that mon is bad and would be like C tier. Also Ray was misplaced somehow so pretend it's right below ghostceus in B. I'd be more than happy to explain any of these here or on disc if y'all are curious.

 

[Red Raven]

https://tiermaker.com/create/sv-ubers-dlc2-personal-viability-rankings-16558335
View attachment 591009
Ordered up until B- tier, and keep in mind meta is still young and things change quickly etc. Terapagos wasn't on here but that mon is bad and would be like C tier. Also Ray was misplaced somehow so pretend it's right below ghostceus in B. I'd be more than happy to explain any of these here or on disc if y'all are curious.

I am curious about one thing. Did you misplace Deoxys and its attack form? Kinda odd to see normal form ranked higher than its attack form

 

[Colteor]

I am curious about one thing. Did you misplace Deoxys and its attack form? Kinda odd to see normal form ranked higher than its attack form

Yea I swapped those 2 by mistake lol

 

[Pigbeeef]

https://tiermaker.com/create/sv-ubers-dlc2-personal-viability-rankings-16558335
View attachment 591009
Ordered up until B- tier, and keep in mind meta is still young and things change quickly etc. Terapagos wasn't on here but that mon is bad and would be like C tier. Also Ray was misplaced somehow so pretend it's right below ghostceus in B. I'd be more than happy to explain any of these here or on disc if y'all are curious.

doesnt deserve its placement in my opinion if is d tier
btw is crazy how grimmsnarl is the same as zacian

 

[Colteor]

doesnt deserve its placement in my opinion if is d tier
btw is crazy how grimmsnarl is the same as zacian

Yeah I'd probably move NDW and Magearna down to C, they're not really proven at all yet and basically just theory.
As for Grimm idk screens just seem really effective rn with people dropping sunsteel and sleeping on zacian + how offensive the meta is.

 

[Aberforth]

We've updated the VRs for our initial impression of the meta post DLC2. This is likely to change by the end of the ongoing Ubers World Cup, the end of which is when we will aim to have an update out unless something egregious happens in the meantime. The spreadsheet to see the votes can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JPueX3feWT74e7WW__pRMJiAadNWrI_-JNlw1_uXv-g/.

Rises:
A to A+
A- to A
B to A-
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
C+ to B
B- to B
C+ to B-
D to C-

Drops:
A+ to A
A+ to A
A to A-
A- to B+
B+ to B
A- to B
A- to B-
B to B-
B to C+
B+ to C+
B- to C+
C+ to C
B- to C
B- to C
C+ to C
B- to C
C to C-
C- to D
C to D
C- to D
C- to D
C+ to Unranked
C- to Unranked
C to Unranked
C- to Unranked
C- to Unranked
C- to Unranked
C- to Unranked
D to OU (Unranked via unbanning)

New Pokemon
S (3)
A+
A-
B
B
B
B-
C-
D
D
D
D
D
D
D


I want to provide some quick reasoning behind a few of these changes as a member of the VR council. First and foremost, the VR was outdated at the end of DLC1, absolutely nobody would have said that Toxapex and Groudon were A- pokemon while Basculegion was in C+, for example, so dont take their original position too reflective of the DLC1 meta. However, there are a few notable changes that I feel some reasoning should be provided.

Zacian was one of the top 5 mons in DLC1, possibly even top 3. However, DLC2 coming out introduced two solid checks to Zacian, in Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Ho-oh respectively, both of whom are now in most of the VR council's top 5. While Zacian can give itself ways to break through them, doing so cuts into the versatility that Zacian had before the DLC, and reduces its ability to wallbreak other defensive options like Skeledirge for its teammates like Koraidon.

Introducing Ho-oh and Necrozma-DM into the tier made some pokemon increase in viability that gives Kyogre pause. While Kyogre doesnt have a bad matchup into either, its not keen on switching in to them directly, and having additional water resists running around like Arceus-Water and Giratina-O make the choice sets more prediction reliant, while this is still a meta that is rather unkind towards the bulkier setup Kyogres, given just how much physical offense there is running around. Still an incredibly difficult mon to check, but definitely not on the level of anything in A+.

The most divisive pokemon on the slate for the VR council, swinging from B+ to C- in individual votes. Clodsire is one of the pokemon that truly does not like having Dusk Mane or Ho-oh around, and is starting to show that it struggles for stats a bit when competing with a full field of Ubers. However, this does remain one of the better Miraidon checks in the tier, and it does fit on certain teams better than Ting-Lu thanks to its access to recover and Toxic Spikes.

 

[TH1N3 H4MM3R]

Just wondering why Gambit dropped an entire letter rank. What changed in the meta that caused it to take such a big blow? It should seemingly have a good mu into Necrozma-DM but I'm assuming that Ho-oh's popularity is at least part of the reason.

 

[Meme Guy 924]

What caused the drop for Groudon?

 

[Manaphy]

Just wondering why Gambit dropped an entire letter rank. What changed in the meta that caused it to take such a big blow? It should seemingly have a good mu into Necrozma-DM but I'm assuming that Ho-oh's popularity is at least part of the reason.

NDM is faster, often has Earthquake, and often runs Phys Def sets, so Gambit really doesn't like taking it on without a ton of Overlord boosts. Ho-Oh's another obvious problem as you said. As an offensive Steel-type, NDM will more than likely be taking the majority of the spots on those BO teams Gambit used to be ran on.

What caused the drop for Groudon?

Gliscor being released not only added a competitor for the phys def wall role, but Gliscor itself has a fantastic matchup against Groudon, and it makes the entire meta more Spikes-focused, which is rough for Groudon which needs Lefties to do any healing. Lando-T often fills the role better than Groudon thanks to utility with Intimidate, U-Turn, Taunt, and immunity to Spikes and Ground-type damage. Ho-Oh being around also makes Blades and WoW as your only coverage options quote inconvenient, as Blades/WoW/Spikes/Protect used to be the most common set.

One thing Groudon has going for it is access to both SR and Spikes, pulling off a sort-of OU Ting-Lu role. It would probably work well with Ho-Oh, as it appreciates the Sun support and can provide the Ground-immunity you'd lose out on without running Lando-T.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Why is deoxys speed in B tier? i thought it was the greatest HO lead of all time in all the tiers it has ever been in? what changed this time in ubers that caused it to drop so much? If i recall correctly, the lack of hazard removal outside of giratina-o should have meant better meta for hazard leads?
I mean, its not like that there is a dark type with 90 usage running around clicking dark moves, right?

Btw, why is in B tier as well? I believe still shits on it with physdef sets and is outclassed by the most used mon in the tier ?

 

[CD56]

I know this was discussed earlier, but I believe that is actually viable in Ubers. Not good, mind you, but I firmly believe it is C rank. The best way to use this pokemon in my opinion is with a defensive set with toxic, rapid spin, roar, and then an attacking move of choice. This type of set prevents it from being a tera hog as it has real utility in stopping a sweep with toxic/roar, as well as being a very bulky rapid spin user. Of course, it still has the option to tera with this set and become really annoying, especially if you decide to use tera starstorm as your final move, as it still hits pretty hard against everything. But I do not think the CM sets are viable in Ubers because those sets ARE tera hogs and mad predictable. But, with the defensive set, it can be predictable and still put in the necessary work in to stop a game ending sweep, which can be huge. This is why I think it is at C rank, but definitely no higher than that still, it still has severe issues, but I do think it is viable this way.

 

[Pigbeeef]

I know this was discussed earlier, but I believe that is actually viable in Ubers. Not good, mind you, but I firmly believe it is C rank. The best way to use this pokemon in my opinion is with a defensive set with toxic, rapid spin, roar, and then an attacking move of choice. This type of set prevents it from being a tera hog as it has real utility in stopping a sweep with toxic/roar, as well as being a very bulky rapid spin user. Of course, it still has the option to tera with this set and become really annoying, especially if you decide to use tera starstorm as your final move, as it still hits pretty hard against everything. But I do not think the CM sets are viable in Ubers because those sets ARE tera hogs and mad predictable. But, with the defensive set, it can be predictable and still put in the necessary work in to stop a game ending sweep, which can be huge. This is why I think it is at C rank, but definitely no higher than that still, it still has severe issues, but I do think it is viable this way.

I agree with your statement, terapagos can effectively stop many sweeps with the defensive set, but it cannot effectively do so more than once as it takes a large chunk of damage even with tera shell up. but there are still many threats it cannot handle like offensive trick room ndm as photon geyser bypasses tera shell and can easily sweep the team. despite how trash it actually is, it achieved number 10 usage in the december usage rates for no clear reason.

 

[Zest of Life]

I agree with your statement, terapagos can effectively stop many sweeps with the defensive set, but it cannot effectively do so more than once as it takes a large chunk of damage even with tera shell up. but there are still many threats it cannot handle like offensive trick room ndm as photon geyser bypasses tera shell and can easily sweep the team. despite how trash it actually is, it achieved number 10 usage in the december usage rates for no clear reason.

New toy syndrome. Players were still trying to figure out whether Terapagos had any sort of meaningful niche in the tier. Its usage will plummet now that an established VR is out

 

[Manaphy]

Why is deoxys speed in B tier? i thought it was the greatest HO lead of all time in all the tiers it has ever been in? what changed this time in ubers that caused it to drop so much? If i recall correctly, the lack of hazard removal outside of giratina-o should have meant better meta for hazard leads?
I mean, its not like that there is a dark type with 90 usage running around clicking dark moves, right?

Btw, why is in B tier as well? I believe still shits on it with physdef sets and is outclassed by the most used mon in the tier ?

If you look at the rankings of HO leads in SS/SV historically, B ranking is actually extremely high. HO leads in themselves are good but play a very specific role so its hard to rank them much higher. Deo-S itself faces some competition as Deo-A also pulls off a lead set very well, not to mention Ribombee, Glimmora, and Treads still aren't bad at all.
That being said, I think despite the lack of hazard removal options compared to some other gens, Boots definitely play a huge role as well. You'll probably see a higher ranking in DPP for example thanks to lack of team preview + stuff like boots.

In a vacuum Kyu-B is outclassed by Korai yes, but it does have some decent roles to play. With Tera Electric it will beat any NDM bar Defensive Tera Ground Earthquake sets, so it's a decent pair to Zacian/NDM to pull off the "overwhelm NDM" strategy.

 

[Pigbeeef]

If you look at the rankings of HO leads in SS/SV historically, B ranking is actually extremely high. HO leads in themselves are good but play a very specific role so its hard to rank them much higher. Deo-S itself faces some competition as Deo-A also pulls off a lead set very well, not to mention Ribombee, Glimmora, and Treads still aren't bad at all.
That being said, I think despite the lack of hazard removal options compared to some other gens, Boots definitely play a huge role as well. You'll probably see a higher ranking in DPP for example thanks to lack of team preview + stuff like boots.

In a vacuum Kyu-B is outclassed by Korai yes, but it does have some decent roles to play. With Tera Electric it will beat any NDM bar Defensive Tera Ground Earthquake sets, so it's a decent pair to Zacian/NDM to pull off the "overwhelm NDM" strategy.

Thanks for the explanation, I guess ima go try suicide lead deo-A sometime later.
Btw, grimmsnarl does not effect its viability?

 

[Manaphy]

Thanks for the explanation, I guess ima go try suicide lead deo-A sometime later.
Btw, grimmsnarl does not effect its viability?

Grimmsnarl being able to Taunt Deo-S is pretty annoying yea, although Deo-S itself works fantastically with Grimmsnarl also, so it's not too bad.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Grimmsnarl being able to Taunt Deo-S is pretty annoying yea, although Deo-S itself works fantastically with Grimmsnarl also, so it's not too bad.

Wait, Two leads in one team? offensive deo-S? If i recall correctly Deo-S is mostly a lead and have some offensive sets in OU while grim is NEVER offensive?

 

[Manaphy]

Wait, Two leads in one team? offensive deo-S? If i recall correctly Deo-S is mostly a lead and have some offensive sets in OU while grim is NEVER offensive?

It's my opinion that Grimmsnarl should NOT be used as a lead (outside of certain MUs like the aforementioned Deo-S one), as saving your Grimmsnarl for certain threats and using it strategically tends to work out much better. Leading with it is pretty predictable and your opponent will often still have the resources to stop your sweep.

Therefore, I like having a proper HO suicide lead that can get some hazards up and allow my sweepers to break easier, in addition to Grimm. I know some people disagree based on the premise that "well 5 sweepers is better than 4", but have you ever tried to stop a Double Dance Miraidon or a Scale Korai with both Screens and Spikes up?? The synergy really allows you to abuse the brokens that are legal in this tier. Just my take though!

 

[YubelVT]

View attachment 570619
(amazing art by Fusion Flare)​

Hello all! Here's our second viability rankings thread to represent the post-home metagame.

This is a list of the seventy-two viable Pokemon in SV Ubers, sorted top-to-bottom from most to least viable.

Thread Rules

- Post intelligently. One-liners saying things like "X should be Y rank" without context or supporting evidence are likely to be disregarded or deleted.
- Be civil when debating other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated.
- This thread is for discussion of the viability rankings only. Those wanting to ask simple questions about why something is ranked or how to build a team should look to our SQSA for guidance.
- Be aware of our subforum rules and the global forum rules — they all apply here, too.

The VR Council

The VR Council is a group of experienced players selected to assess any new nominations from the community and vote on them before they become accepted into the rankings. This same council has the same jurisdiction over the upcoming Sample Teams thread. The VR Council also can internally nominate changes to the thread — it then votes on these, just as an individual user would in a post in this thread. We will document all changes to the Viability Rankings in the form of update posts, where votes and associated reasoning are collected in a spreadsheet. Be on the lookout for these.

The current VR Council is:
Aberforth
Fc
Fogbound Lake
Inder
Kate
Manaphy
SiTuM

Rankings

The Pokémon below S are not currently ranked within their own tiers. Instead, they are ranked alphabetically within their own tiers.

S Rank
S

Koraidon
Miraidon
Necrozma Dusk Mane

A Rank

A+
Arceus
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Ground
Ho-Oh

A
Kyogre
Ting-Lu
Zacian-Crowned

A-
Arceus-Water
Deoxys-A
Eternatus
Flutter Mane
Giratina-O
Gliscor

B Rank
B+
Landorus-T
Skeledirge

B
Basculegion
Calyrex-I
Deoxys-S
Grimmsnarl
Groudon
Kyurem-B
Rayquaza
Zekrom


B-
Arceus-Ghost
Chien-Pao
Lunala
Ribombee
Toxapex

C Rank
C+
Arceus-Grass
Glimmora
Iron Bundle
Kingambit
Mewtwo

C
Alomomola
Arceus-Poison
Chi-Yu
Clodsire
Great Tusk
Orthworm
Walking Wake

C-
Blissey
Ditto
Gothitelle
Iron Treads
Smeargle
Sneasler


D Rank

A reminder that these Pokemon are only Ubers by tiering and possess no real metagame niche.

Annihilape
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Steel
Baxcalibur
Deoxys-N
Dialga
Dialga-Origin
Espathra
Giratina-A
Kyurem-W
Landorus
Lugia
Magearna
Necrozma-DW
Ogerpon-H
Palafin
Palkia
Palkia-O
Regieleki
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Solgaleo
Spectrier
Terapagos
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Urshifu
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Zacian
Zamazenta-Crowned

So I've been out of ubers for a while, but I was wondering why Smeargle is tiered at all. On paper it's got everything but in practice it's the freest scale shot koraidon counter lead you've ever seen, and that's not a pokemon you want getting setup for free.

Also uh
ditto to B-. My position on it has not changed and it just kills so many of the setup sweepers the tier loves to use. Also the funny zacian interaction can end games immediately