Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

honestly didn't expect boulder to go yet, either way i'm mostly indifferent. No action on rain is disappointing though, but I assume that there will be action on it in the future, for now though, here's a bunch of random stuff I've been using to counter rain

:pmd/rotom-wash: wash is probably the best rain counter imo. its a physically defensive water resist thats neutral to electric while resisting flying and can threaten will-o on Barra and volt switch on almost all major rain mons besides excadrill, who cant switch into rain-boosted hydro pump and doesn't like will-o-wisp. It's also pretty good into the rest of meta already. rotom feels like the most splashable rain counter, and Id highly recommend trying it out.

:pmd/gastrodon-east: I've talked about gastro being pretty good before rain fell to the tier, but now its even better. storm Drain makes it a great switch-in to barraskewda and lets it beat Zapdos with ice beam, but beyond that, the water immunity is a great threat in the back against the rain user. Being able to make the opponent think twice about clicking their rain-boosted moves is so valuable for a Pokemon that can do alot in other matchups makes gastro one of my go-to picks if I'm scared of rain.

:pmd/slowking: water resist with a pivoting move that changes the weather and Regen. not much to explain, its just good

:pmd/volcanion: I tried him out recently and he was actually pretty good. He has the same trait as gastro of having a water immunity, but with a more offensive approach. I used taunt + stabs and sludge bomb, but I heard he also has an interesting fire spin trapper set which could be interesting ON rain since it notably Is great against Slowking.

There are more but these are all pretty great counter for rain. None of these are perfect, notably I've seen a lot of tealpon on rain to beat rotom and gastro, and this don't mean rain isn't a massive problem, but they're good enough to help counter rain in the short-term.
Also since it's being discussed, I don't think banning damp rock would be a good idea. all it would do is make pelipper run hdb, not much would change
 
:pmd/rotom-wash: wash is probably the best rain counter imo. its a physically defensive water resist thats neutral to electric while resisting flying and can threaten will-o on Barra and volt switch on almost all major rain mons besides excadrill, who cant switch into rain-boosted hydro pump and doesn't like will-o-wisp. It's also pretty good into the rest of meta already. rotom feels like the most splashable rain counter, and Id highly recommend trying it out.
It's really more of a stopgap than a counter honestly. It still takes a ton from Liquidation (like 37% min) and factoring tera water it's almost guaranteed a 2HKO from full and that's not considering how you also use it to check Zapdos (which 2HKOs with Thunder unless you are Spdef but then you don't check Barra anymore), and other threats on rain. Similar applies to Slowking who gets Flip Turned on and Zapdos gets momentum as Slowking can't handle it. Regarding Volc and Gastro, they're both one predict off from Close Combat crippling both. They can deter mindless flip spam but they need back up to ensure they're not overwhelmed or easily predicted.

Which gets me to the real problem with rain which is that you've got to go out of your way to account for rain because the combination of threats is quite heavy pressure with just Barra+Zapdos and you need ways to punish or limit Barra which can require a pretty notable amount of resources so it doesn't cycle between its offensive teammates over and over.
 
It's really more of a stopgap than a counter honestly. It still takes a ton from Liquidation (like 37% min) and factoring tera water it's almost guaranteed a 2HKO from full and that's not considering how you also use it to check Zapdos (which 2HKOs with Thunder unless you are Spdef but then you don't check Barra anymore), and other threats on rain. Similar applies to Slowking who gets Flip Turned on and Zapdos gets momentum as Slowking can't handle it. Regarding Volc and Gastro, they're both one predict off from Close Combat crippling both. They can deter mindless flip spam but they need back up to ensure they're not overwhelmed or easily predicted.

Which gets me to the real problem with rain which is that you've got to go out of your way to account for rain because the combination of threats is quite heavy pressure with just Barra+Zapdos and you need ways to punish or limit Barra which can require a pretty notable amount of resources so it doesn't cycle between its offensive teammates over and over.
Yeah, counter wasn't really the best word, and these really need support to succeed. I will say I wasn't trying to say wash was a zapdos counter, its more that wash can volt switch on it to something that can actually do well against it, I should have been more specific with that. honestly gastro is the only Mon here that can really take on Zapdos by itself, and even then it can struggle with hurricane confusions. these mons are less of counters and more of just mons that do well against most rain teams.
 
It's really more of a stopgap than a counter honestly. It still takes a ton from Liquidation (like 37% min) and factoring tera water it's almost guaranteed a 2HKO from full and that's not considering how you also use it to check Zapdos (which 2HKOs with Thunder unless you are Spdef but then you don't check Barra anymore), and other threats on rain. Similar applies to Slowking who gets Flip Turned on and Zapdos gets momentum as Slowking can't handle it. Regarding Volc and Gastro, they're both one predict off from Close Combat crippling both. They can deter mindless flip spam but they need back up to ensure they're not overwhelmed or easily predicted.

Which gets me to the real problem with rain which is that you've got to go out of your way to account for rain because the combination of threats is quite heavy pressure with just Barra+Zapdos and you need ways to punish or limit Barra which can require a pretty notable amount of resources so it doesn't cycle between its offensive teammates over and over.
A mon that I could see working well in the rain meta is water absorb lanturn. Specifically, this set.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Calm Nature
Tera Type: Ghost
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
The core of zapdos + barra cannot really do much to this. The best they can do is barra cc'ing with the knowledge that they will be sacking themselves, which in itself is a massive boon in order to deal with rain teams. But tera ghost flips that on its head, allowing lanturn to blank a cc and ko barra back easily, with t-bolt always ko'ing even without investment. Even after that, zapdos cannot do a lot to it. Thunder/hurricane is a shaky 7.4% chance to 3hit ko, while ice beam is always a 3hitko. Even a choice specs gren at a tera ghost lanturn is not a guarenteed ko, while you still hit it back for 71% minimum.
Honestly, lanturn seems to fit really good into the rain matchup, and it feels like it was in SS where it also had a genuine niche.
 
alright lets drop the rain counters now that boulder got banned

Lawful:
sea slug (Gastrodon) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Chilling Water / Protect / Acid Armor

-Storm Drain makes gastro a viable counter
-recover for solid recovery options, especially on the switch
-epower and ice beam hits excadrill and zapdos
-although chilling water is scald loss copium, you can also use protect to stall rain turns or acid armor to lock in matchups vs physical attackers

Neutral:
funny fish counter (Volcanion) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Will-O-Wisp / Protect

- volcanion is a solid water absorber
- tera ghost makes for a complete wall to all standard skewda sets
- 56+ def investment is for band cc to 3hko so you can hit that with a sweet sweet wisp or outright kill if it's chipped
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Volcanion: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chaotic:
zapdos is kfc (Brambleghast) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Power Whip
- Spikes
- Leech Seed

-wind rider + grass type means that this thing resists/walls all of zapdos's moves
-spin to take advantage of switches forced
-pwhip to make sure that gren doesn't want to switch in raw (0 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 404-476 (141.7 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
-leech seed is solid recovery, spikes can force damage onto barraskewda
 
- 56+ def investment is for band cc to 3hko so you can hit that with a sweet sweet wisp or outright kill if it's chipped
0 SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 224-264 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If barra cc's, then you can potentially ko it from full. If only stealth rocks are up, its a 80% chance to ko.

You also forgot:
Lawful evil
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

-can take on the combo of barra + zapdos pretty well, walls all their stab moves
-can take a barra cc and revenge kill with t-bolt.
-zapdos can at best 3hit ko lanturn, but is shaky, while it always 3hit ko's back
-volt switch means it keeps momentum for the team, can get in other mons for free

Neutral evil
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Recover
-walls both electric and water moves
-isn't two hit ko'd by zapdos hurricane, and has recovery to stall out rain turns
- +1 rock slide is a 50% to be a 2hit ko against zapdos, while barra can never 2hit ko it after one curse

Chaotic evil
Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Mirror Coat
- Leech Life
- Sticky Web
-resists all of barras moves, close combat has a small chance to 3hit ko
-can take one hit from zapdos and fire back with mirror coat, destroying it
-leech life 3hit kos barra, while giving it recovery and 2hit ko'ing gren
-sticky web means that other rain monsters are slower, and that makes them easier to deal with.
 
It's really more of a stopgap than a counter honestly. It still takes a ton from Liquidation (like 37% min) and factoring tera water it's almost guaranteed a 2HKO from full and that's not considering how you also use it to check Zapdos (which 2HKOs with Thunder unless you are Spdef but then you don't check Barra anymore), and other threats on rain. Similar applies to Slowking who gets Flip Turned on and Zapdos gets momentum as Slowking can't handle it. Regarding Volc and Gastro, they're both one predict off from Close Combat crippling both. They can deter mindless flip spam but they need back up to ensure they're not overwhelmed or easily predicted.

Which gets me to the real problem with rain which is that you've got to go out of your way to account for rain because the combination of threats is quite heavy pressure with just Barra+Zapdos and you need ways to punish or limit Barra which can require a pretty notable amount of resources so it doesn't cycle between its offensive teammates over and over.
Believe it or not, skilled players don't think they have to deal with all of Barraskewda's moves. Also, the fact that there are no pokemon that can't deal with zapdos and barraskewda at the same time is not proof that it's broken.
 
A mon that I could see working well in the rain meta is water absorb lanturn. Specifically, this set.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Calm Nature
Tera Type: Ghost
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
The core of zapdos + barra cannot really do much to this. The best they can do is barra cc'ing with the knowledge that they will be sacking themselves, which in itself is a massive boon in order to deal with rain teams. But tera ghost flips that on its head, allowing lanturn to blank a cc and ko barra back easily, with t-bolt always ko'ing even without investment. Even after that, zapdos cannot do a lot to it. Thunder/hurricane is a shaky 7.4% chance to 3hit ko, while ice beam is always a 3hitko. Even a choice specs gren at a tera ghost lanturn is not a guarenteed ko, while you still hit it back for 71% minimum.
Honestly, lanturn seems to fit really good into the rain matchup, and it feels like it was in SS where it also had a genuine niche.
I've played around with Lanturn a bit, and as much as I wish it was good because it's one of my favorite mons, its just not at all. It lost toxic and heal bell in the transition to gen 9 so in most games it's complete dead weight except for hoping for scald burns. It's also not a very solid check to rain; it doesn't actually do well into Skewda like you said because its so physically frail (CC does up to 80%.) It also isn't a check to Zapdos without volt absorb. Modest Zapdos thunder is an (almost) clean 3hko, and even if it's not modest Lanturn can't switch into anything except weather ball or it loses the 1v1.

252+ SpA Zapdos Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 165-195 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

IMO if you're committed to running Lanturn, volt absorb is much better, as it's one niche is resisting all of hurricane, thunder, water weather ball, and heat wave. Gastro, Volc, and even Vaporeon are better water absorbers if thats what you're looking for. Trying to cram a counter to Zapdos and Skewda, two very different mons, in one slot isn't how you teambuild, and you end up with a mon that only kinda half counters both of them.

When I was trying Lanturn I used a set of scald/volt switch/ice beam/t-wave (to cripple Lati), and while it did succeed in walling Zap and sometimes spreading para it didn't really offer much else. If you happen to not play against a Zap you're basically playing a 5v6, and it gets chipped down easily because it relies on lefties and is really hazard weak. Other Zap counters like Rhyperior and Sandy Shocks both do more than 1 damage and have hazards, and Gastro is basically what you're trying to make water absorb Lanturn into and also has hazards.

I do hear Lanturn is very good in PoGo pvp, so its not completely over Lanturnbros.
 
Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Steel
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Luster Purge
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Wow! an interesting set, what does calm mind do that an attacking move or recover doesnt do or esp flip turn?

well dear person who is reading this, it means that latios can take advantage of scenarios like tricking a scarf onto a slowking and it decides to scald, or maybe on a rotom-w who is clicking hydro pump, and it can help latios take advantage of the free switches it has vs pokemon like def zapdos who may just look to tank a hit and pivot out

Calm mind can also make it so smth like a trick'ed slowking has a much harder time taking advanatge of you if you can lock them into a move or they expect just an attacking move like draco or luster purge and instead you bring out CM

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Upper Hand

i was trying out the iron boulder at home but it ends up its still pretty bad, being outsped by latios, ogerpon, gren, and every scarfer in the tier doesnt help, at least it nukes defense compared to iron boulder but it feels you are really in deep trouble if you face an offensive team that can keep up pressure

it feels ok at least compared to before
 
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Upper Hand
I've found that tera normal quick attack stings so many offensive mons. You do lose to scizor, but a +2 tera normal quick attack does 73% to lokix minimum, 67% to latios minimum and 58% to torn-t minimum. Its better for teams that don't use priority.
 
Believe it or not, skilled players don't think they have to deal with all of Barraskewda's moves.
There's an undertone of condescending that I don't exactly care for in this comment.

Also, the fact that there are no pokemon that can't deal with zapdos and barraskewda at the same time is not proof that it's broken.
This is a really shortsighted comment. Individually they aren't inherently broken (and barra is a poor pokemon outside of rain) but the combination of the two under rain creates challenging pins that are difficult to not get overwhelmed by naturally without specific counterplay (and said counterplay still isn't exactly guaranteed). I have no issue with disagreement but you're not really offering counterarguments against the possibility of rain being problematic. You just made a vague statement that doesn't really address anything meaningfully. If they aren't broken, point out why and how to handle them.
 
There's an undertone of condescending that I don't exactly care for in this comment.



This is a really shortsighted comment. Individually they aren't inherently broken (and barra is a poor pokemon outside of rain) but the combination of the two under rain creates challenging pins that are difficult to not get overwhelmed by naturally without specific counterplay (and said counterplay still isn't exactly guaranteed). I have no issue with disagreement but you're not really offering counterarguments against the possibility of rain being problematic. You just made a vague statement that doesn't really address anything meaningfully. If they aren't broken, point out why and how to handle them.
Yes, I'm not arguing because I think the rain is broken. I just wanted to point out that having Barraskewda click close combat is a good thing, and not being able to deal with two powerful attackers at the same time is not limited to rain.
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2103545900
Ladies and gentlemen. This is why acupressure should be banned. I almost lost the game to this.
why is acupressure allowed in the first place? Is there an actual competitive use for it or something? Cause its only really ever used as a cheese strategy. It feels like it should just be banned via evasion clause so it might be something you bring up to someone in policy review, though I'm not qualified or knowledgeable enough to know how that all works
 
why is acupressure allowed in the first place? Is there an actual competitive use for it or something? Cause its only really ever used as a cheese strategy. It feels like it should just be banned via evasion clause so it might be something you bring up to someone in policy review, though I'm not qualified or knowledgeable enough to know how that all works
They banned it in Gen 5, and there are talks about banning it in other gens. Idk how to put the idea in policy review, but it will most likely happen otherwise.
 
Shouldn’t acupressure fall under evasion move clause? If double team and minimise are banned because they’re uncompetitive, then surely the more luck based move should be banned as well
if you ban only the evasion part that's violating smogon's core principle of not violating cart play. normally acupressure isn't big enough of a problem or a shitty gimmick, but there are cases where mons could try the acupressure slot machine enough times to get brazy boosts, like drapion in monotype some time ago. Personally, I think that acupressure in 9UU isn't big enough of a priority for suspect action compared to rain or latios.
 
So I've been getting more into UU lately, and have been using a few off meta mons that I'd like to talk about.
:lanturn: Yeah, this mon is actually great. Specifically with eerie impulse and water absorb, it shuts down most rain teams while not being bad into more traditional teams. It seriously is a great mon that I think you should try out. Eerie impulse means that special attackers can't set up on you and with tera ghost, this set can counter all of barra, zapdos, keldeo, quaq and even rotom-w if you get lucky with the burn. Great mon, you should use.
:moltres: I was suprised this wasn't on the vr, but it of course put in the work. Some teams just don't have an answer to moltres, whose fire and flying coverage wrecks the whole tier. Any resists get u-turn'd on (ttar hates it) and it can really work. Now, it does hate rain teams, rock types, rotom-w and zapdos, but if you can play around that (I paired it with lanturn and excadrill), it can put in the work. Besides, these aren't things that other mons don't struggle with, so moltres can be fit into teams decently easily. It's one of the best excadrill counters, counters hydrapple that lacks hydro pump (most of them), counters lokix (doesn't like knock off though), tinkaton (knock off stings) scizor (knock again), skeledirge, metagross (knock once again) and does decent against mamo. Try it out on different teamstyles, it does better in practice then I am showing.
:gengar: Been using a scarf set with this and while its power at first is lacking, it does clean games easily. It has the same speed and power as latios, so its a good alternative. It's defensive utility isn't bad too. It resists grass moves, making it able to somewhat switch into grasspon and hydrapple, is immune to fighting, so cobalion is free entry, resists fairy so chipped tinkaton is free entry. From there, its stab moves are quite powerful. I don't like running focus miss, so I have been having success with dazzling gleam, though I might switch it over to energy ball/giga drain to hit rotom-w harder (hate that mon). Last slot I've been using is destiny bond, which can take down an opponent with it. Really great mon, I might nom it higher on the viability rankings.
 
:moltres: I was suprised this wasn't on the vr, but it of course put in the work. Some teams just don't have an answer to moltres, whose fire and flying coverage wrecks the whole tier. Any resists get u-turn'd on (ttar hates it) and it can really work. Now, it does hate rain teams, rock types, rotom-w and zapdos, but if you can play around that (I paired it with lanturn and excadrill), it can put in the work. Besides, these aren't things that other mons don't struggle with, so moltres can be fit into teams decently easily. It's one of the best excadrill counters, counters hydrapple that lacks hydro pump (most of them), counters lokix (doesn't like knock off though), tinkaton (knock off stings) scizor (knock again), skeledirge, metagross (knock once again) and does decent against mamo. Try it out on different teamstyles, it does better in practice then I am showing.
Are you running the offensive set or the defensive set? I haven't tried the offensive set yet but I know that the defensive set is solid due to Flame Body. Are you running Uturn/Flamethrower/Hurricane/Roost? Seems solid, might try it out.
 
:lanturn: Yeah, this mon is actually great. Specifically with eerie impulse and water absorb, it shuts down most rain teams while not being bad into more traditional teams. It seriously is a great mon that I think you should try out. Eerie impulse means that special attackers can't set up on you and with tera ghost, this set can counter all of barra, zapdos, keldeo, quaq and even rotom-w if you get lucky with the burn. Great mon, you should use.
can you drop the team you’re using with lanturn cuz i do not see that mon ever doing anything ever
 
Are you running the offensive set or the defensive set? I haven't tried the offensive set yet but I know that the defensive set is solid due to Flame Body. Are you running Uturn/Flamethrower/Hurricane/Roost? Seems solid, might try it out.
I'm using a spread of 248 hp, 252+ sp.attack and 8 sp.defense, so a bulky attacker. Most of the time you won't be outspeeding much, so the extra bulk helps. There are a few other spreads I could reccomend. 232/252+/24 speed outspeeds 224 neutral scizor, while 200/252+/56 speed outspeeds 252 neutral scizor and 196/252+/60 speed outspeeds neutral 88 speed rotom-w. But that's up to personal preference, I prefer max/max.
can you drop the team you’re using with lanturn cuz i do not see that mon ever doing anything ever
https://pokepast.es/95d91f570305d775
I've been using this team. You can swap out d-gleam on gengar for a grass move (either energy ball or giga drain) cause rotom-w is an annoying matchup. Don't be scared to switch in lanturn, its suprisingly bulky on the special side. It's much bulkier than rotom-w on that side.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 160-189 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Crown Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
However, it does take more of the physical side.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lanturn: 332-391 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's why I paired it with moltres, who can shut down physical attackers, and excadrill, who can deal with physical rock types decently well.
 
What makes Hydrapple so good? I've used it, seems alright. Why is it being used on so many samples?

Furthermore, am I supposed to use it as a bulky NP wincon or a specs wall breaker or an AV Regen spdef wall? would appreciate the help thx
 
What makes Hydrapple so good? I've used it, seems alright. Why is it being used on so many samples?

Furthermore, am I supposed to use it as a bulky NP wincon or a specs wall breaker or an AV Regen spdef wall? would appreciate the help thx
This is because it can check attackers such as excadrill and can be advantageous in many matchups if tera is included, and it is also very aggressive. nasty plot is the most common but choice specs is personally a better set. No one uses AV but I don't know why , probably due to the fact that there are very few mu's that can be won with special bulk boost.
 
This is because it can check attackers such as excadrill and can be advantageous in many matchups if tera is included, and it is also very aggressive. nasty plot is the most common but choice specs is personally a better set. No one uses AV but I don't know why , probably due to the fact that there are very few mu's that can be won with special bulk boost.
i use AV hydrapple, i love it so much because it can survive a greninja ice beam and counterattack with Giga Drain/Energy Ball
 

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