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Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread
- Thread starter ironwater
- Start date
j0nathan
formerly trainer_j0nathan
Glimmora and Hamurott are better leads if you want hazards up.
Instead of reviving an old RMT post, I just wanted to know if this team could work post Indigo Disk or if some updates are needed:
https://pokepast.es/e5b4c0e10132bcc1
It looks like the second DLC has brought in the most changes for OU! I am interested in Pokemon like Slowking-Galar and Skarmory (so especially curious if any of them could replace my existing guys). I also see Pokemon like Kingambit and Great Tusk are still going strong.
Thanks in advance, everyone!
https://pokepast.es/e5b4c0e10132bcc1
It looks like the second DLC has brought in the most changes for OU! I am interested in Pokemon like Slowking-Galar and Skarmory (so especially curious if any of them could replace my existing guys). I also see Pokemon like Kingambit and Great Tusk are still going strong.
Thanks in advance, everyone!
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Could I have won this, with Tera Rock Serperior (I think Pult would've T-waved this) ? I'm using Rock over Ground, to matchup against non-Glowking-Stall better.
If I could have won, how, please?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2073302710-yjck3gpjyqde4yiec37rvs3w6iwvgkopw
Team: https://pokepast.es/a785ca938968c9e5
Tagging the creator Lialiabeast , in case you'd like to reply, but if you don't, no big deal!
If I could have won, how, please?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2073302710-yjck3gpjyqde4yiec37rvs3w6iwvgkopw
Team: https://pokepast.es/a785ca938968c9e5
Tagging the creator Lialiabeast , in case you'd like to reply, but if you don't, no big deal!
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I'm curious how you think Rock is improving your matchup vs stall. The only thing I can think of is if you're trying to snipe Talonflame, but your biggest concern with Serp vs stall is Blissey. In those matchups, it's a waste to tera Serp at all, but tera Ground can at least let you chunk Clodsire.
Regarding the cases above I’ve listed none of the current metagame targets are able to effectively take advantage of these moves to automatically win the majority of games easily with the exception of H-Lilligant which wasn’t even an excessive threat even with Sleep Powder, but on top of the counterplay to its method of sleep. As for Sun teams that use H-Lilligant again, Sleep Powder has a lot of counterplay.
As a mechanic, sleep is usually RNG unless you put yourself to sleep with rest then it is static 2 turns. While sometimes we can agree sleep is manageable other times it isn’t. Games could be won or lost on bad RNG with how many turns a Pokemon stays asleep. This mechanic is similar to terrestrialization in this manner, or confusion. Both Confusion and Terrastalization as mechanics can automatically win games that the player may not have won otherwise. RNG does exist in Pokemon but mechanics that the player can relatively avoid with team building and planning can be dealt with.
Confusion has a chance to hurt the user in confusion potentially multiple times in 1 confusion instance. Which in itself can take away multiple turns and be more harmful then sleep. While having the same primary counterplay as yawn, via switching.
Terrestrialization as a mechanic is RNG based, sure to some extent you can predict within reason what type they might be, but on occasion you will face a type you didn’t expect that wins the game alone. A type change that follows smogons recommended sets while common, there are teams that deviate from those quite often. This mechanic alone this generation has caused multiple Pokemon to be banned prior to the DLC, and will likely continue to ban Pokemon as this generation moves forward. While no action is being taken on it. Regarding the sleep ban and NOT banning tera, I’d say the council has banned the lesser of 2 evils.
Hypnosis:
Hypnosis is a move that had its biggest rise in generation 7 which was with Z-Hypnosis particularly with Ultra Beasts, but with how prominent Tapus was in that given generation it wasn’t really an issue and was manageable.
This move has always had less options to handle but in exchange less accuracy.
Lower accuracy then sleep powder at 60%, so you might as well flip coins and you’ll often win more then you lose, but only 10% more. The threats that utilized this Iron Val and Darkrai specifically are just examples of power creep. While the answers for this may be less than Sleep Powder, and unconventional, the move isn’t the most consistent. I’m unsure why other moves need to be banned because of the lack of counterplay this generation to fast power crept hypnosis abusers. The examples given by the council have been primarily targeting this move, and singles out the fact there is little counterplay to fast abusers of it. With how RNG based Sleep is as a mechanic. However between generation 9 OU and Nat dex for the same generation, there is no reason why this format (in a competitive sense would be banned on one and not the other, except Tapus, but if Tapus are in fact the only reason that is restricted to team building). Overall in generation 9 I see this as the main move that is causing this entire issue, but I also have an idea that might make this not matter as much as it currently does.
Regarding the argument of being ‘console accurate’ or enforceable on the console, not clicking a sleep move can be done. Before recently the timers were 20 minutes so any single battles that take place on console aren’t going to PP stalling. Even in generation 7 or 6 with 1 hour battle timers PP stalling would rarely take games by themselves. As we are referring to the switch battle timer/delay and animation mechanics prior to the dlc you were given very little time to ever attempt to run out of PP (even if you just used 1-3 Pokemon in a 1v1 or 3v3 trying to waste pp fast while sitting threw the animations/delay). Up until recently that would be the case, but with friendly battles 60 minute timer now being implemented PP stalling goes back to how it was in generation 7 and prior. However on showdown neither timer is ever enforced on the traditional ladder, why? It’s a simulator, and as such if it wanted to accurately represent what would happen in such conditions would a timer not be required on ladder tiering? or simply the council chooses not to add it because letting players resolve a battle is simply more fun/healthier for the game to let players finish what they might have not been able to otherwise? Furthermore animation/delay is further reduced/near eliminated on showdown so if a timer was ever added to traditional battling, accurately accounting for the delay/animations reflected only on the timer (for the convenience of the playerbase) might also be required in this instance. One of the main points I’m making about this is, the degree in which battles are done on showdown is ‘console accurate’ is less than the player base may think because prior to the friendly battle timers and the entire generation 8, a large quantity of battles on showdown(that weren’t aborted) wouldn’t finish on console with a clear winner and would usually go to HP deciding it, at least until a timer and delay are added to ladder battle.
Sleep clause, while not directly enforceable on console, has been more or less a gentleman’s agreement, and should continue to be. To benefit everything from draft formats to actual OU, Yawn utility in some bulky lower tier options is helpful while having active counterplay. Sleep Powder and Spore have a lot of counterplay as well. I’m aware I didn’t go over Sing and options of that nature, I could but they usually aren’t viable enough, however if anyone wants to hear my opinion regarding them I could.
In conclusion, sleep while may be rng based can be healthy to OU and other formats, while some may be unhealthier than others (Hypnosis), most of. My suggestions to fix some issues with the sleep clause, would be banning terra(this removes a lot of threats that might be causing these issues due to how the meta changes). Banning tera shifts turns the OU format on its head, simply because a lot of Pokemon that are broken with tera wouldn’t be, and a lot of Pokemon that are going to be bounced on and off the smogon banlist wouldn’t need to be. I could see Iron Valiant still being a big sleep abuser, which would be more manageable under sleep clause in a format where it can’t tera. Iron Valiant and Darkrai would almost never be on the same team because of the sleep clause (doesn’t mean they can’t be used on the same, it would just waste a slot in many circumstances unless you're not running sleep on 1 or both of these). Without having both the ability to tera your opponent can’t safely sleep, setup and tera accordingly. Sleep isn’t the issue, the ability to tera is the issue.
So the simple question is why ban direct sleep moves?
Second question is why not ban tera instead?
As a mechanic, sleep is usually RNG unless you put yourself to sleep with rest then it is static 2 turns. While sometimes we can agree sleep is manageable other times it isn’t. Games could be won or lost on bad RNG with how many turns a Pokemon stays asleep. This mechanic is similar to terrestrialization in this manner, or confusion. Both Confusion and Terrastalization as mechanics can automatically win games that the player may not have won otherwise. RNG does exist in Pokemon but mechanics that the player can relatively avoid with team building and planning can be dealt with.
Confusion has a chance to hurt the user in confusion potentially multiple times in 1 confusion instance. Which in itself can take away multiple turns and be more harmful then sleep. While having the same primary counterplay as yawn, via switching.
Terrestrialization as a mechanic is RNG based, sure to some extent you can predict within reason what type they might be, but on occasion you will face a type you didn’t expect that wins the game alone. A type change that follows smogons recommended sets while common, there are teams that deviate from those quite often. This mechanic alone this generation has caused multiple Pokemon to be banned prior to the DLC, and will likely continue to ban Pokemon as this generation moves forward. While no action is being taken on it. Regarding the sleep ban and NOT banning tera, I’d say the council has banned the lesser of 2 evils.
Hypnosis:
Hypnosis is a move that had its biggest rise in generation 7 which was with Z-Hypnosis particularly with Ultra Beasts, but with how prominent Tapus was in that given generation it wasn’t really an issue and was manageable.
This move has always had less options to handle but in exchange less accuracy.
Lower accuracy then sleep powder at 60%, so you might as well flip coins and you’ll often win more then you lose, but only 10% more. The threats that utilized this Iron Val and Darkrai specifically are just examples of power creep. While the answers for this may be less than Sleep Powder, and unconventional, the move isn’t the most consistent. I’m unsure why other moves need to be banned because of the lack of counterplay this generation to fast power crept hypnosis abusers. The examples given by the council have been primarily targeting this move, and singles out the fact there is little counterplay to fast abusers of it. With how RNG based Sleep is as a mechanic. However between generation 9 OU and Nat dex for the same generation, there is no reason why this format (in a competitive sense would be banned on one and not the other, except Tapus, but if Tapus are in fact the only reason that is restricted to team building). Overall in generation 9 I see this as the main move that is causing this entire issue, but I also have an idea that might make this not matter as much as it currently does.
Regarding the argument of being ‘console accurate’ or enforceable on the console, not clicking a sleep move can be done. Before recently the timers were 20 minutes so any single battles that take place on console aren’t going to PP stalling. Even in generation 7 or 6 with 1 hour battle timers PP stalling would rarely take games by themselves. As we are referring to the switch battle timer/delay and animation mechanics prior to the dlc you were given very little time to ever attempt to run out of PP (even if you just used 1-3 Pokemon in a 1v1 or 3v3 trying to waste pp fast while sitting threw the animations/delay). Up until recently that would be the case, but with friendly battles 60 minute timer now being implemented PP stalling goes back to how it was in generation 7 and prior. However on showdown neither timer is ever enforced on the traditional ladder, why? It’s a simulator, and as such if it wanted to accurately represent what would happen in such conditions would a timer not be required on ladder tiering? or simply the council chooses not to add it because letting players resolve a battle is simply more fun/healthier for the game to let players finish what they might have not been able to otherwise? Furthermore animation/delay is further reduced/near eliminated on showdown so if a timer was ever added to traditional battling, accurately accounting for the delay/animations reflected only on the timer (for the convenience of the playerbase) might also be required in this instance. One of the main points I’m making about this is, the degree in which battles are done on showdown is ‘console accurate’ is less than the player base may think because prior to the friendly battle timers and the entire generation 8, a large quantity of battles on showdown(that weren’t aborted) wouldn’t finish on console with a clear winner and would usually go to HP deciding it, at least until a timer and delay are added to ladder battle.
Sleep clause, while not directly enforceable on console, has been more or less a gentleman’s agreement, and should continue to be. To benefit everything from draft formats to actual OU, Yawn utility in some bulky lower tier options is helpful while having active counterplay. Sleep Powder and Spore have a lot of counterplay as well. I’m aware I didn’t go over Sing and options of that nature, I could but they usually aren’t viable enough, however if anyone wants to hear my opinion regarding them I could.
In conclusion, sleep while may be rng based can be healthy to OU and other formats, while some may be unhealthier than others (Hypnosis), most of. My suggestions to fix some issues with the sleep clause, would be banning terra(this removes a lot of threats that might be causing these issues due to how the meta changes). Banning tera shifts turns the OU format on its head, simply because a lot of Pokemon that are broken with tera wouldn’t be, and a lot of Pokemon that are going to be bounced on and off the smogon banlist wouldn’t need to be. I could see Iron Valiant still being a big sleep abuser, which would be more manageable under sleep clause in a format where it can’t tera. Iron Valiant and Darkrai would almost never be on the same team because of the sleep clause (doesn’t mean they can’t be used on the same, it would just waste a slot in many circumstances unless you're not running sleep on 1 or both of these). Without having both the ability to tera your opponent can’t safely sleep, setup and tera accordingly. Sleep isn’t the issue, the ability to tera is the issue.
So the simple question is why ban direct sleep moves?
Second question is why not ban tera instead?
Hmm yeah I would need leech seed to beat Blissey, true.
Reformatting the above to be more of a simple question:
If you have to build just one of these Pokemon to handle the current meta, who would you build and why?
Kinggambit
Great Tusk
Slowking-Galar
Skarmory
P.S. - Not saying any of these guys are a one-size-fits-all
Each of these mons have different purposes, though the one I would say handles the overall metagame the best is great tusk because it gives hazard removal, is an amazing physical tank and can be customised a lot from a bulky supporting mon to a scary setup sweeper.
Kingambit can cover a lot of the meta, but is a lot more one-dimensional, as every sets main goal is to sweep late-game, whether by tera dark to boost sucker punch power, or tera fairy/flying to resist fighting moves. It also usually comes in late game, so it doesn't contribute much to a team's defenses.
Slowking-Galar is a generally tanky mon that unless there is super effective stab moves being aimed at it, it can tank a hit and either apply pressure with future sight, or get a teamate in with chilly reception. It does have to be careful due to the various ground and dark moves flying around, but it can be great for a team's defensive backbone.
Skarmory is the one that is the least able to handle the current metagame, while it can deal with a lot of physically offensive mons, set up spikes and even sweep if given the opportunity, it cannot deal at all with special attackers and invites them in a lot, which is not ideal. Skarmory can be great, but it has to be supported with the right teamates that can deal with these powerful threats it invites in.
A few more mons that can handle the general metagame:
Landorus-Therian, an alternative to tusk that can fill a lot of different roles on a team.
Gliscor, an alternative to the other two that is much more bulky and can lay spikes.
Hatterene, a good offensive mon that can stop hazards from going up.
Primarina, a good mon overall, it can help a lot in some tricker matchups such as against gouging fire.
Hope this helped.
What mons on stall teams can help against dual status dragapult? I know there is blissey, but it can be defeated by dragon darts. I also have mandibuzz, but it seems like its not doing too well against it.
I'd think Garganacl would be good, especially curse sets. A bit passive, though
Mandibuzz should be fine into it; there’s also tera dark Alomomola, tera fairy Blissey, Toxapex, among others.
First spread outspeeds Blissey, as well as 0 speed Kingambit/Ursaluna.
Second spread outspeeds Clefable
I believe the smaller speed investment creeps uninvested Blissey and the other speed creeps uninvested Clefable.
Nah, wouldn’t use it much, especially without Teleport this Gen
This is why I ask questions instead, I'm too young to pull my hair out testing.
While the topic is focused on Gouging lately, any advice on how to best deal with Gouging Fire on Balance? The Breaking Swipe set really gets me off guard.
Toxic Gliscor if it’s not Steel or Poison, Fairy Tera Tusk, TSpikes if it’s not boots, Garg if it’s not Cloak, Fairy Dozo, Fairy Lu w Eq + Ruin or normal Lu w Ruin EQ Whirl, Haze Pex
We don't have usage stats for Tera use on ladder, but this will generally be the most common set:
Gholdengo @ Air Balloon
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
With those stubby arms, even as it drowns it doesn't leave much splashing.
For specific reasons: it is supremely passive. Blissey does not drain momentum, it brings it to a complete halt while strapping an afterburner onto its opponent. For a stall team that's fine, but even the bulkiest of balances don't like having to switch in a hard stop.