These are the only two posts you made about sleep before memeing.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
You made one post about your actual stances on the subject matter, and another which was just a question, both which got lost in the overall discussion as a whole (Since contrary to what you are saying, there was actual discussion beforehand). Nobody was going out of their way to ignore you, you just didn't talk much and unfortunately just didn't get as much attention as other people.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
What are you talking about? The only person I targeted was buzzwhole and my response was tamer than his. The first set of memes were not insulting to group of people but rather a set of policies.
Why are y'all getting so triggered over some memes? lol
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senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Serious discussion like the below, which is actually beneficial to the community and can only improve the integrity and transparency of the council and to this point been completely ignored?
I'm also the only one that has contributed to correcting the post of the sleep ban by highlighting the moves which shouldn't have been on the list. I am making genuine contributions regardless whether you like or hate my memery.
read above.
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senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Sorry, I forget to mention how sleep policy dictated sleep in the lower tiers to you aside from everything else I brought up. MB bro, i'll do it next time just for you.
Can you two stop fighting in the forum?
This is EXACTLY what happened when people tried to make opinions for sleep, they kept calling the person an idiot and then laughed them off the forum, giving no argument. Or it would be some response like "its cartridge accurate" while no matter what action was taken would not be cartridge accurate. The whole sleep ban is incredible silly because Darkrai finally comes to OU and now instead of banning darkrai we ban sleep, just so we can keep darkrai. Isn't this exactly what we were trying to avoid with adding more complex bans to sleep?? Its just annoying because the 6% usage of sleep teams and the 30% to win the game was ignored by people saying that sleep is uncompetitive.
The problem isn't people not talking too much, its stupid shit like this that drowns out actual discourse so all the relevant information is stuck in pages and pages of arguments.
This is EXACTLY what happened when people tried to make opinions for sleep, they kept calling the person an idiot and then laughed them off the forum, giving no argument. Or it would be some response like "its cartridge accurate" while no matter what action was taken would not be cartridge accurate. The whole sleep ban is incredible silly because Darkrai finally comes to OU and now instead of banning darkrai we ban sleep, just so we can keep darkrai. Isn't this exactly what we were trying to avoid with adding more complex bans to sleep?? Its just annoying because the 6% usage of sleep teams and the 30% to win the game was ignored by people saying that sleep is uncompetitive.
The problem isn't people not talking too much, its stupid shit like this that drowns out actual discourse so all the relevant information is stuck in pages and pages of arguments.
Oh I think theres tons of players on showdown and in the pokemon community that rarely visit smogon forums to begin with. It would be nice to have it somewhere in showdown. Maybe in OU games like when it says 'OU is Suspecting Roaring Moon' and links to the suspect thread. This kinda stuff is more important than 'X mon is getting banned' imo but we usually hear less about it.
IDK, why are you crying over laughing emoji's lol
I think announcing policy threads that everyone would be able to post in would be sick, esp to bridge the gap of showdown and smogon users. But also complaining about haha reacts is really funny. Every single person on this forum with actual opinions gets haha bombed. Every council member has at least one but more realistically like 10-20 posts that are 90% haha reacts. it's an extremely tame forum reaction, we gotta move on
If that's stopping you from making meaningful discussions in this forum, go to preferences and update this. god bless
If that's stopping you from making meaningful discussions in this forum, go to preferences and update this. god bless
Can personally attest. I got majorly haha'd on the DLC1 forum for two opinions that are in retrospect obvious:
1. We should get rid of Sleep Clause, it's a mod to the game.
2. Alolan Ninetales is not broken in OU, it only enables broken Pokemon.
Mass Hahas doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong to be honest. What I learned is that timing matters a lot. And if you are right but ahead of your time, why even bother posting? No one will remember that you said that when it comes true, and everyone will still make fun of you for it.
Yeah there was a poll in the OU chat room on showdown that asked a quesiton of banning sleep, banning darkrai, or do nothing. The lowest percentage was ban sleep. Then it was do nothing, then ban darkrai. I don't remember the exact statistics but there was a poll.
before they inevitably lock the thread:
i hope i have DaddyBuzzwole permission for this
In all seriousness and changing topics, how we feeling on Deo-S? I'm surprised and not surprised by the survey results.
i hope i have DaddyBuzzwole permission for this
In all seriousness and changing topics, how we feeling on Deo-S? I'm surprised and not surprised by the survey results.
One of the major points of tiering policy is in the onus of justification being on those seeking to change the status quo. There should be strong reasoning that the status quo shouldn't be maintained. This could realistically include a suspect test and there's really nothing I can see that says it wouldn't (aside from maybe finch's opinion on suspects of uncompetitive mechanics). Mods needing supermajority to be maintained is really just a matter of personal opinion, there's really nothing that says that. Also the feedback on sleep ban has been pretty mixed, as you can see by the several new accounts coming in here saying sleep ban was a mistake and the ppl harassing council (not justifiable).
Also I have no leg in the Baton Pass discussion cuz I hate Baton Pass but realistically they could've kept drypassing
j0nathan
formerly trainer_j0nathan
I fought one paired with Indeedee. Life Orb and Expanding Force. That killed like 3 Pokemon cause i got scared and made dumb plays.
It's still a good mon. Both the Lead Sets and the Offensive Sets really do their Job.
Usually you can tell what it's going to do and then it's rarely a problem, but sometimes you'll face a team where you're pretty damn sure it's gonna be hazard lead or screens and they drop a Specs Psycho Boost on you, or the perfect obscure coverage move to fuck up your checks.
I don't think it's too strong though, once you know what it's going to do it's not usually a problem, it's just a matter of not letting it get a surprise kill if it's offensive but also not giving it free turns if it's hazards. Maybe something to look at way down the line but far from a priority.
I'd say that the new accounts coming in to say that sleep ban was a mistake is wrong as simply put, you had your chance before when discussions were being made before to put in your input and the community survey to vote on your decision. As Finch as said, tiering policy is not able to be tested by a suspect test because it determines balanced vs broken, and let me tell you, tiering policy is confusing. I would have to make lots of notes just to fully understand how it works, so being good at competitive battling isn't really applicable to tiering policy. I don't mind if you disagree with the decision, especially if you contributed your thoughts as you did, because people are going to disagree with any decision, but when people create accounts just to complain and diss the council or other people, that gets me annoyed. It honestly looks like they are just complaining for the sake of complaning and wouldn't actually want to put the effort in to change it, in which case, I don't think you really get to complain.
I know that your post wasn't just about this topic, but I just wanted to get something off my chest, so sorry in advance but this was kinda a good starting point.
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Hatterene is probably the best Deoxys-S check you could ask for since you can switch into Superpowers or Psycho Boosts and get an easy switch using Eject Button, then you can use whatever mon to set-up while Deoxys-S switches out.
Except this wasn't really a policy discussion, it was a discussion on the brokenness of two Pokemon that secondarily became a policy discussion among proponents. Even if the policy arguments on simulation fidelity held water (and they frankly don't), there were plenty of options on the table for bringing the mod in line to maintain fidelity without changing the practical conditions of play. Even Finchinator's posts in PR acknowledge that the principal issue at hand was a couple of abusers.
As someone that's played this game for over 15 years, Sleep ban is a real Emperor Has No Clothes moment. I was already against the existence of tiering councils since they started, but this I think definitively proves to me that councils simply shouldn't exist as a process. If the argument for councils was to insulate the process from discursive fads, then it's failed entirely at its job and makes me wonder if we're going to start seriously bringing back asinine conversations on banning other mechanics like entry hazards, confusion, paralysis, or Scald simply because the most vocal people in the playerbase suddenly decided that they don't want to play Pokemon anymore. Actually, I wonder if some of these conversations are going to be necessary simply due to how we've just upended years of policy consensus on how "luck" factors into play and defines uncompetitiveness.
As for putting in the effort to change it, what can anyone do lmao? The process is completely up to a handful of chosen insiders, unless we're going to start establishing council by Highlander rules and killing each other in single combat (pick your phone up Finch you coward), there isn't really a whole lot anyone could do.
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It is kinda annoying seeing all the “support” for the No Ban camp for Sleep. Like I was one of the few on the frontlines trying to defend Sleep as a mechanic. Putting myself out there, getting Haha’d, and called an idiot. Aside from one really cringey paragraph I was pretty respectful I thought at least. Would’ve been nice to have the backup then when I was constantly being shutdown when asking for simple things like examples of why the mechanic was uncompetitive, and not the Pokemon.
The fact of the matter is Sleep is banned, get over it. We’ll see in the coming months if this will have a negative impact on the tier, and IF it does then we can reopen the Sleep dialogue. Until then just be nice, and move on it’s just a game.
The fact of the matter is Sleep is banned, get over it. We’ll see in the coming months if this will have a negative impact on the tier, and IF it does then we can reopen the Sleep dialogue. Until then just be nice, and move on it’s just a game.
What are the alternatives to a council? Not a rhetorical question, by the way, I'm genuinely curious what other solutions for tiering policy you might have besides a council.
weekly votes (don't do this, but hypothetically)
You are gods strongest solider, its just that many of us could not compete with DaddyBuzzwoles 9-5 of complaining on the forums. They were on there constantly while I would put up statistical numbers. No one would see the facts, but just just say that BW2OU had a sleep ban so we should too.
Silly argument
But yeah.... nothing we can do now.
While the idea that mods should require supermajority support is not definitively stated, it is definitely implied by the policy to stick to cart mechanics when possible.
A suspect test for banning sleep moves is also not explictly required anywhere, it is just implied that banning things should typically require a suspect test with a 60% supermajority to provide justification for changing the status quo (as you said). The council has always been able to quickban things without a suspect test, though of course the opinions of the public should be an important factor, and public outcry can be used for accountability if they make terrible decisions.
There is no specified procedure for this situation, so a subjective interpretation weighing these two policy points against each other is necessary. It is a reasonable interpretation to decide that loose evidence for a majority opinion combined with a preference for cart accuracy outweighs the need for an explicitly established supermajority vote to change the status quo, given that is how all quickbans work in the first place.
Honestly, the thing with this whole sleep ban is that while a lot of people are saying its a ban to justify keeping darkrai, I actually think it's the opposite: banning darkrai to justify keeping sleep. Saying "sleep isn't uncompetitive as long as we modify cart so it can only happen in one mon and ban some otherwise fine mons/some sleep moves (depending on if you were ban darkrai/val/watever or ban hypnosis)".
If this were the case of a unrestricted sleep being ok except darkrai was too much, then sure, that'd just be darkrai being uncompetitive with it in the same way many other mons have been, but sleep was already given major consessions to stay alive, which are completely outdated and would never pass in modern tiering and yet it was still giving problems. At that point you gotta step back and let it go.
Ok I'm done repeating myself and yapping lol. Now that torkoal doesn't have yawn what sets are yall running, i need to edit some sun teams. rapid/sr/lava plume/wow?
If this were the case of a unrestricted sleep being ok except darkrai was too much, then sure, that'd just be darkrai being uncompetitive with it in the same way many other mons have been, but sleep was already given major consessions to stay alive, which are completely outdated and would never pass in modern tiering and yet it was still giving problems. At that point you gotta step back and let it go.
Ok I'm done repeating myself and yapping lol. Now that torkoal doesn't have yawn what sets are yall running, i need to edit some sun teams. rapid/sr/lava plume/wow?
I guess this was my biggest gripe with the whole discussion, why does it being old make any difference for if we should keep it or not. It feels like an argument to make change for the sake of change.
I personally love trying to fit a cheeky solarbeam onto torkal to try and punish any water type that want to come in. But currently I like running overheat just to get the reach.
Leaving a core of WoW, Rapid, Plume, then the fourth being SB, Overheat or Plume. (I use hatterene for magic bounce rocks)