Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Ditto, Lunala, Iron Treads and Terapagos Dropped)

[vesp]

Corv and Dozo do great vs Zacian, but as a Moltres Enjoyer, this may be bad, as Zacian will now be running Wild Charge to snipe all three.

Wild Charge is reallly funny, because it doesn't beat at all, but new players consistently would show up with it to "beat stall"
252 Atk Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
also, unboosted wild charge doesn't even break through you need to SD on the swap, which is admittedly not that hard, but it is still worth mentioning. Also the recoil from wild charge is bad for it takes 2/3rds of its health in recoil from killing rocky helmet

 

[Darlington]

Having Corv and Tina is a nice addition to the tier and dondozo as well. Having two reliable good defoggers is good as Ghold is not really common but maybe I'm wrong but there are strong Pokemon in this tier that can beat so it's not really an issue. Cover Cloak Donzozo doesn't sound too bad against Snealser even though leftovers is the better choice but still, it's a option. Dondozo dealing with Zacian and wow, that calu is crazy. Wild Charge from Zacian doesn't do nothing to Dondozo wtf. Dlc 2 is almost around the corner, I'm excited

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Balance is so back! Nobody can say the tier is overrun by offence anymore. I hope we get more defensive mons next month due to DLC drops.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Mag doesn't need answers, if you're losing to double dance you're getting skill diffed+there are 2 new defoggers to remove mag's spikes.

magearna doesn't need answers, certainly, but it's good enough and common enough that a positive matchup into it is always an appreciable thing for a mon to have

Wild Charge is reallly funny, because it doesn't beat at all, but new players consistently would show up with it to "beat stall"
252 Atk Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
also, unboosted wild charge doesn't even break through you need to SD on the swap, which is admittedly not that hard, but it is still worth mentioning. Also the recoil from wild charge is bad for it takes 2/3rds of its health in recoil from killing rocky helmet

dozo is just on another level man, being able to 1v1 zacian even if it's carrying supereffective coverage is wild

 

[Eelstartega]

magearna doesn't need answers, certainly, but it's good enough and common enough that a positive matchup into it is always an appreciable thing for a mon to have

dozo is just on another level man, being able to 1v1 zacian even if it's carrying supereffective coverage is wild

That being said...

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Palkia-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Unaware is awful against Draco meteor.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

That being said...

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Palkia-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Unaware is awful against Draco meteor.

sure, but if you leave your dondozo in against something with base 150 spa you deserve whatever happens to it

 

[Sawkasm]

https://pokepast.es/107fb9bb4e666a1c It's time, stall is finally a real thing here!

 

[Return to Zero]

Wild Charge is reallly funny, because it doesn't beat at all, but new players consistently would show up with it to "beat stall"
252 Atk Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 122-144 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
also, unboosted wild charge doesn't even break through you need to SD on the swap, which is admittedly not that hard, but it is still worth mentioning. Also the recoil from wild charge is bad for it takes 2/3rds of its health in recoil from killing rocky helmet

Someone really needs to break into Gamefreak's headquarters one of these days to ask why Wild Charge deserves 30 BP less than Flare Blitz/Double Edge/etc.. Not that I'm complaining though, I want more stuff that shuts down Zacian so good on it for having less options.

God, honest to god stall is in this tier now. And it's not even the OU kind where everything has to run boots. Nature is healing. UUbers is the future.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

UUbers is the future.

it's true, even during the zacianfest i was having more fun than i ever did in this gen's ou (outside of a brief period towards the end of pre-home). plus, i haven't made any enemies on the mod team here yet, which is really helpful because it lets me do things like post in threads and contribute to discussions

 

[KineSquared]

The council has unanimously voted to Ban last respects, and to Unban Basculegion-F

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The council has unanimously voted to Ban last respects, and to Unban Basculegion-F

press basculegion-f to pay respects

 

[kvm1999]

I joined the stall war…on the side of stall (except not actually I just thought a Gira Dozo core was cracked). Anyway, here is my attempt at a stall team for UUbers, which I think is better thanks to the three new drops.



Click for paste


You know…I was really hoping for perish trap because I 1000% would’ve done that. Or toxic refresh. But Arc gets neither so I had to settle with CM Offensive. Judgement, CM, Recover, coverage last. Flame is for Mag and Corviknight but if you want Ice Beam or TBolt the option exists. Tera dark because let’s be honest you’re probably not gonna Tera with this guy.


Rilla…who? Max HP Max Defense Impish with WillO to punish physical threats that would cause problems for the bros in the back, Rest for longevity, DTail for phazing. This set above has both DTail and Roar, however the you can choose one depending on who you want to take damage with the last slot being hex or defog. Alternatively, keep both to punish Tera fairy set up…I wish I had a replay.


Unlike with previous unaware mon Quag, Dozo can actually handle Baxcalibur well and still be a Zacian check. 248 HP Max Def Impish, of course, Liquidation, Curse, RestTalk, Tera dragon, you know and love him. Blanks common physical threats, tanks a lot thanks to its 503 HP stat, allowing to rest and pivot in an absolute emergency.


Something not holding boots? Wild. Max HP Max Speed timid with Bleakwind, Icy Wind, Knock, U holding an assault vest with Tera electric. I stole this torn set but it hitting 375 is an amazing attribute in this metagame. It outspeeds all arceus formes, PalkO, and speed ties Cyclizar. Even if you lose that speed tie, the worst thing it can do to you is knock off while you practically force a switch, maybe get a knock of your own off.


Our lovable healer is back and she’s here to take on special threats. Despite that, curiously enough, she’s Max HP Max Def Bold. She certainly can afford to be SpDef invested but not folding to physical pivots is a good enough investment. Toss, Rocks, TWave, Softboiled, Tera ghost, holding Boots. If I had a fifth slot heal bell, but alas.


Wish support. That’s it. It pivots too, but being a reliable source of HP keeps the stall team going round so…Max HP Max Def Bold, holding boots, you know the drill. Tera Flying for the meme because most of the time you’re not clicking Tera on here either. If you want a more serious Tera, poison or dark would probably be your best bet. Scald, wish, protect, flip.

Team options:

One that sticks out to me is making Giratina double status with Hex, making blissey heal bell, and slotting Roar over coverage on arceus. Another option is switching out Arceus for a fast breaker like Chi Yu or Zacian but that would take away from the point of a team structure like this in my opinion.

Play style:

I won’t beat around the bush: it’s stall. There will be switching, there will be predicts, there will be health and status management. But if you’re patient and slow the turns down, you can force the opponent to misplay and take advantage of the chip damage. 80% of the time you will lead torn as a pivot or to immediately get rid of an item. Blissey and Arceus are good leads too. With Blissey, find a free turn to get rocks up and you’re in business.

Weaknesses:


Do not let this thing calm mind twice or its GGs. You trade a lot of HP with one but you can recover it off if necessary.

Knock Off:
In a meta with hazards everywhere, it’s prudent to keep your boots on. Mons like Blissey can afford to lose their boots if there’s 3 spikes on the ground, but only once. Switch reliant teams like not taking hazards, keep that in mind.


Spatial Rend is a fun move. But you know what else is a fun move? Scale Shot. Which it gets. Doesn’t even matter if it’s min atk, it’ll still chunk blissey down if it gets more than 2-3 hits.


Last Respects is a move that starts with 50 base power and scales up with…wait Last Respects is banned? LETS GOOOOOOO HOUNDSTONE FOR RUBERS RIP BOZO

Stall/Mirror Match:
I mean…you chose stall. When you play stall against stall, it becomes a slugfest. Unfortunately toxic isn’t slotted in on any of these mons so of the opposing team has it and you don’t it’ll become 1000% more difficult. But expect to sit in for a while if this is the case. Don’t be afraid to throw Gira in for that added pressure.

Overall this team I think is pretty solid but I think can be better, what do y'all think? How can a structure like this be improved? Will stall in general take off?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I joined the stall war…on the side of stall (except not actually I just thought a Gira Dozo core was cracked). Anyway, here is my attempt at a stall team for UUbers, which I think is better thanks to the three new drops.



Click for paste


You know…I was really hoping for perish trap because I 1000% would’ve done that. Or toxic refresh. But Arc gets neither so I had to settle with CM Offensive. Judgement, CM, Recover, coverage last. Flame is for Mag and Corviknight but if you want Ice Beam or TBolt the option exists. Tera dark because let’s be honest you’re probably not gonna Tera with this guy.


Rilla…who? Max HP Max Defense Impish with WillO to punish physical threats that would cause problems for the bros in the back, Rest for longevity, DTail for phazing. This set above has both DTail and Roar, however the you can choose one depending on who you want to take damage with the last slot being hex or defog. Alternatively, keep both to punish Tera fairy set up…I wish I had a replay.


Unlike with previous unaware mon Quag, Dozo can actually handle Baxcalibur well and still be a Zacian check. 248 HP Max Def Impish, of course, Liquidation, Curse, RestTalk, Tera dragon, you know and love him. Blanks common physical threats, tanks a lot thanks to its 503 HP stat, allowing to rest and pivot in an absolute emergency.


Something not holding boots? Wild. Max HP Max Speed timid with Bleakwind, Icy Wind, Knock, U holding an assault vest with Tera electric. I stole this torn set but it hitting 375 is an amazing attribute in this metagame. It outspeeds all arceus formes, PalkO, and speed ties Cyclizar. Even if you lose that speed tie, the worst thing it can do to you is knock off while you practically force a switch, maybe get a knock of your own off.


Our lovable healer is back and she’s here to take on special threats. Despite that, curiously enough, she’s Max HP Max Def Bold. She certainly can afford to be SpDef invested but not folding to physical pivots is a good enough investment. Toss, Rocks, TWave, Softboiled, Tera ghost, holding Boots. If I had a fifth slot heal bell, but alas.


Wish support. That’s it. It pivots too, but being a reliable source of HP keeps the stall team going round so…Max HP Max Def Bold, holding boots, you know the drill. Tera Flying for the meme because most of the time you’re not clicking Tera on here either. If you want a more serious Tera, poison or dark would probably be your best bet. Scald, wish, protect, flip.

Team options:

One that sticks out to me is making Giratina double status with Hex, making blissey heal bell, and slotting Roar over coverage on arceus. Another option is switching out Arceus for a fast breaker like Chi Yu or Zacian but that would take away from the point of a team structure like this in my opinion.

Play style:

I won’t beat around the bush: it’s stall. There will be switching, there will be predicts, there will be health and status management. But if you’re patient and slow the turns down, you can force the opponent to misplay and take advantage of the chip damage. 80% of the time you will lead torn as a pivot or to immediately get rid of an item. Blissey and Arceus are good leads too. With Blissey, find a free turn to get rocks up and you’re in business.

Weaknesses:


Do not let this thing calm mind twice or its GGs. You trade a lot of HP with one but you can recover it off if necessary.

Knock Off:
In a meta with hazards everywhere, it’s prudent to keep your boots on. Mons like Blissey can afford to lose their boots if there’s 3 spikes on the ground, but only once. Switch reliant teams like not taking hazards, keep that in mind.


Spatial Rend is a fun move. But you know what else is a fun move? Scale Shot. Which it gets. Doesn’t even matter if it’s min atk, it’ll still chunk blissey down if it gets more than 2-3 hits.


Last Respects is a move that starts with 50 base power and scales up with…wait Last Respects is banned? LETS GOOOOOOO HOUNDSTONE FOR RUBERS RIP BOZO

Stall/Mirror Match:
I mean…you chose stall. When you play stall against stall, it becomes a slugfest. Unfortunately toxic isn’t slotted in on any of these mons so of the opposing team has it and you don’t it’ll become 1000% more difficult. But expect to sit in for a while if this is the case. Don’t be afraid to throw Gira in for that added pressure.

Overall this team I think is pretty solid but I think can be better, what do y'all think? How can a structure like this be improved? Will stall in general take off?

if you're having trouble against opposing stall teams, might i suggest slotting in heal bell over rocks on blissey and replacing rest on giratina with spite? spite gira-a is incredibly underrated, especially as a stallbreaker—being able to burn literally half their recovers in a single turn severely cuts down on how stally stall is capable of being—and the combination of spite + pressure is very potent against breakers if played correctly. as necessary as recovery on giratina is, the combination of wish support and heal bell should be serviceable in the absence of rest

 

[leonissenbaum]

On the last respects ban: In the most recent survey, houndstone was pretty unanimously considered to not be banworthy by the community, with an average of 2.23, which is also behind multiple other pokemon. The recent tier shifts didn't exactly make it more busted, with nothing leaving the tier and both dozo and corviknight (and tera giratina) being able to survive a hit from banded variants. I understand that the council sees differently, but either way it seems banning a pokemon that the community survey was pretty clear isn't problematic at all isn't great, and makes it feel like the council isn't listening to player sentiment.

 

[SwordIsBored]

No matter whether or not you think Last Respects was too strong to be banned, it was definitely an unhealthy presence in the tier and a specific interaction I found funny was using Play Rough into a Cyclizar switch in and then OHKOing every single Pokemon on the enemy's team from there. That prediction was in no way healthy and there isn't really a Pokémon that can withstand the power of Houndstone, especially when you have hazards up and even a defensive behemoth like Dondozo will get one hit KOed at maximum HP even with 252 HP 252 Defense with Bold Nature. It is also the only reason why Sand was used and forced a lot of teams to run Tera Normal to be able to handle it at times, which is too overbearing.

To people's complaints about it not having that high percentage of ban on the survey, the council try their best to actively listen to the community yet sometimes the opinions do differ such as the community wanting action on Zacian and Magearna previously whilst they're seen as important cornerstones of the tier to the council and Houndstone not being seen as a threat whilst we think it is uncompetitive. Overall, when the votes are in 100% majority this is just the outcome that happens.

If anyone would like to explain how Houndstone was in any way a positive influence on the tier, I'd love to hear how it would only better Ubers UU by existing.

 

[leonissenbaum]

No matter whether or not you think Last Respects was too strong to be banned, it was definitely an unhealthy presence in the tier and a specific interaction I found funny was using Play Rough into a Cyclizar switch in and then OHKOing every single Pokemon on the enemy's team from there. That prediction was in no way healthy and there isn't really a Pokémon that can withstand the power of Houndstone, especially when you have hazards up and even a defensive behemoth like Dondozo will get one hit KOed at maximum HP even with 252 HP 252 Defense with Bold Nature. It is also the only reason why Sand was used and forced a lot of teams to run Tera Normal to be able to handle it at times, which is too overbearing.

To people's complaints about it not having that high percentage of ban on the survey, the council try their best to actively listen to the community yet sometimes the opinions do differ such as the community wanting action on Zacian and Magearna previously whilst they're seen as important cornerstones of the tier to the council and Houndstone not being seen as a threat whilst we think it is uncompetitive. Overall, when the votes are in 100% majority this is just the outcome that happens.

If anyone would like to explain how Houndstone was in any way a positive influence on the tier, I'd love to hear how it would only better Ubers UU by existing.

I'm not very interested in debating if houndstone was actually banworthy, i'm far more interested in having the discussion about banning things in general that the survey is heavily in favor of not banning, not defending houndstone/last respects specifically.

It's fair that the council opinion can differ, and obviously I don't think that the council has to always vote exactly in accordance with what the community wants. However, there's clear points where it's too far: A quickban on a pokemon with 2.23 support on the survey is far too much, since 2.23 is essentially as unproblematic as it can be. A suspect test might make sense at most, with the council and the community disagreeing, but a quickban with such a massive disagreement doesn't make much sense.

 

[DragonPhoenix333]

Wild Charge is reallly funny, because it doesn't beat at all, but new players consistently would show up with it to "beat stall"

What would be really crazy is Zacian in Sun with SOLAR BLADE

 

[Magcargo]

The council has unanimously voted to Ban last respects, and to Unban Basculegion-F

PRESS F TO PAY LAST RESPECTS ​

This is a dark day for the Basculin White-Striped community. However, while many of us of may be weeping at this decision, just remember that our losses now only make us stronger next generation. The same way Basculin White-Striped would be powered up after each of its teammates fainted, we will be powered up next generation with greater and stronger community support to keep our second favorite feesh in the metagame & at full power.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

has anyone experimented with dugtrio or gothitelle? trapping seems like it might be a potent tool in the right hands, but i can't think of very many mons that dugtrio can even revenge-kill here, and trick gothitelle doesn't work against some very common stuff like arceus and palkia-origin

 

[bergundy]

has anyone experimented with dugtrio or gothitelle? trapping seems like it might be a potent tool in the right hands, but i can't think of very many mons that dugtrio can even revenge-kill here, and trick gothitelle doesn't work against some very common stuff like arceus and palkia-origin

I used a little bit of dug and played against goth and dug, goth isn't really that good but dug can actually trap and kill passive twave spikes mag and its a great switch into volt switch but that's all it does lol dug switches into mag with sash, gets the kill then gets 1 more eq hopefully and dies. and if its shift gear mag you just die. goth is even worse, it tricks once and then does nothing else. both are kinda bad but dug could be good

 

[Magcargo]

has anyone experimented with dugtrio or gothitelle? trapping seems like it might be a potent tool in the right hands, but i can't think of very many mons that dugtrio can even revenge-kill here, and trick gothitelle doesn't work against some very common stuff like arceus and palkia-origin

I'm experimenting with Gothitelle and its ass.... There's way too much offensive shit in the metagame for it to do anything but be death fodder. In theory, it should be able to trap mons like Dozo and Garganacl, but when I can count the number of times I see other players use those Pokemon on the ladder on one hand, then that niche becomes less and less relevant. At the very least, it doesn't perform terribly vs support Magearna from my experience, as it can trick it a choice item and lock it into a useless move like Spikes, but that's about the extent I've gotten from its utility.

Unrelated, but ID + BP mons are kinda OP in this metagame. Been running two of them on the same team and they are regularly able to sweep lmaooo.

 

[cyrtie]

Will this tier continue for future generations and is it possible for it to become an actual tier if it gets popular enough? Unlikely, yes but it is a valid question.. anyway. This metagame is a great idea, let’s see how it is in the future!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

In theory, it should be able to trap mons like Dozo and Garganacl, but when I can count the number of times I see other players use those Pokemon on the ladder on one hand

dozo's been here for like a day, give it time. i'm sure a bunch of people will pick it up since it's, you know, the only zacian answer

well, ok, there are other "answers", but those are answers with an ellipsis at the end. dondozo has an exclamation point

Will this tier continue for future generations

given the reception it's gotten so far, i'd be surprised if it doesn't. of course the attention will wane over time just like any new thing, but this meta looks like it's got legs, so i'd expect it to continue

and is it possible for it to become an actual tier if it gets popular enough?

well, we have to remember that it's almost impossible to become an "official" tier. zu and ag are still technically not official tiers, even though everyone treats them like they are. that's at about the level i think we'll end up

 

[Leo Justice]

Will this tier continue for future generations and is it possible for it to become an actual tier if it gets popular enough? Unlikely, yes but it is a valid question.. anyway. This metagame is a great idea, let’s see how it is in the future!

That is what we wish for! But to be honest we don't know how stable the metagame will be in future generations. Especially with a limited dex, and at the beginning with no bans and/or no legendary Pokemon outside of the cover legendaries (if it works like scarlet and violet with no home compatibility for a long time)

 

[leonissenbaum]

Will this tier continue for future generations and is it possible for it to become an actual tier if it gets popular enough? Unlikely, yes but it is a valid question.. anyway. This metagame is a great idea, let’s see how it is in the future!

That's the dream, but it all depends on if the meta stays popular enough. If it stays popular like you say, then I don't see why not!