Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[HeartfulKitty]

What makes Valiant such a ban worthy threat in people’s eyes? Even prehome I thought Valiant to be a very manageable mon. It just seems so out of place when people talk about banworthy mons. Like, yeah, this guy on the same level as Manaphy and Wellspring, like, what?

I think the biggest issue is sheer set variety. It has a bajillion sets, and there's a whole lot that are A/A+ sets with limited counterplay in their own right. On top of that, said counterplay rarely overlaps (what beats encore Valiant may struggle against calm mind Valiant, etc). All of that together makes for a mon with no true universal counter or even check, meaning you can get completely bodied by guessing its set wrong. Not the only mon that can do this, but it's by far the most egregious example this gen.

I don't think Valiant should be a priority, but it is really fucking good and kinda cracked

 

[YubelVT]

What makes Valiant such a ban worthy threat in people’s eyes? Even prehome I thought Valiant to be a very manageable mon. It just seems so out of place when people talk about banworthy mons. Like, yeah, this guy on the same level as Manaphy and Wellspring, like, what?

Iron Valiant is a pokemon that wasn't really banworthy until recently, at least not considered banworthy by most. Its combination of speed tier, move pool, and ability to use booster energy makes it extremely difficult to deal with, especially in combination with tera. It's one of a few "pick your own checks" pokemon in the tier along with Sneasler. I've heard calls to ban booster energy from OU, but Iron Valiant is the only problematic user of BE in the tier. Walking Wake is stupid easy to wall with something like Milotic or even just Blissey, Iron Moth is hard walled by Heatran unless you run tera ground tera blast (which sucks), and both Walking Wake and Great Tusk are pastdox mons and as such just have sun setters available anyway.

 

[viivian]

What makes Valiant such a ban worthy threat in people’s eyes? Even prehome I thought Valiant to be a very manageable mon. It just seems so out of place when people talk about banworthy mons. Like, yeah, this guy on the same level as Manaphy and Wellspring, like, what?

i dont think iron valiant is banworthy at all but its combination of speed, strength and versatility can make it rather difficult to reliably answer and very annoying to revenge kill, especially since no other speed booster paradoxes can outspeed it anymore after roaring moon was banned. with that being said, its definitely got its fair share of checks, but most of these are set-dependant and can likely lose 1v1 depending on what valiant is running. we should keep a close eye on it just in case but it doesnt warrant any immediate tiering action

 

[heileone]

Moltres, while having roost, is also extremely crippled by a knock off as its typing leaves it taking 50% from rocks without its boots. Late Game Kingambit thrives on teams being weakened over the course of an otherwise normal game, and it always has.

If you let your moltres get knocked thats just bad play, not really an argument for why it cant beat gambit. Also the notion that gambit is op because it sweeps weakened teams after its checks/ counters have been chipped and therefore its broken is pretty ridiculous. Scarf kart does the same thing, scarf lele does the same thing, ash gren does the same thing, barraskewda does the same thing, like there are so many mons that can rip through chipped teams in a late game scenario that its absurd to think this one factor makes gambit broken. What makes gambit broken is that it can tera, sd for free, and then 1v6 through non chipped teams. Theres also other counterplay beyond just killing it outright since its so slow. Kingambit is also weak to status, encore, or trick. Of course, if you are of the opinion that valiant is of a too high power level for the tier, then kingambit probably is too much. However, valiant is honestly not that op and is also one of the biggest tera abusers, with tera electric/steel allowing it to get a free cm and sweep easily much like gambit does. But once again, this is a tera problem.

 

[YubelVT]

If you let your moltres get knocked thats just bad play, not really an argument for why it cant beat gambit. Also the notion that gambit is op because it sweeps weakened teams after its checks/ counters have been chipped and therefore its broken is pretty ridiculous. Scarf kart does the same thing, scarf lele does the same thing, ash gren does the same thing, barraskewda does the same thing, like there are so many mons that can rip through chipped teams in a late game scenario that its absurd to think this one factor makes gambit broken. What makes gambit broken is that it can tera, sd for free, and then 1v6 through non chipped teams. Theres also other counterplay beyond just killing it outright since its so slow. Kingambit is also weak to status, encore, or trick.

The difference between scarf lele/kart and kingambit lies in the fact that they don't actively get stronger as the team dies. They also get chipped by hazards and, the big thing, cannot run leftovers. Not only this, the metagames where lele and kartana are legal require them to come in quite often, where as kingambit only needs to come in one or two times a game. And getting a pivot pokemon knocked off is a bad play? That's almost inevitable because of how clickable knock off is as a move. You're assuming, again that humans are going to play perfectly and have the power of clairvoyance when that's never happening. People make mistakes, bad moves are clicked, pokemon get knocked. Like eventually your moltres is getting knocked, your lando is getting chipped, and the opponent's kingambit will be sitting on its stupid throne with a smirk

 

[Ehmcee]

Let's not pretend like Kingambit is broken without Tera

Without it, we got counters like:

, ID , ID , , , , ,

The following check it extremely well, or at least revenge kill it, which is all you need if it's the final mon anyway

, , , , Willo , Heat Wave , literally any fighting type

Like come on, sure it's still a great mon, but it's essentially just a better ORAS Bisharp, within the context of the meta surrounding it.

 

[Smashburn]

Let's not pretend like Kingambit is broken without Tera

Without it, we got counters like:

, ID , ID , , , , ,

The following check it extremely well, or at least revenge kill it, which is all you need if it's the final mon anyway

, , , , Willo , Heat Wave , literally any fighting type

Like come on, sure it's still a great mon, but it's essentially just a better ORAS Bisharp, within the context of the meta surrounding it.

Kingambit is totally manageable without Tera, but with Tera it's too centralizing and honestly unhealthy for the meta. I'm amazed it even lived the last suspect test but this meta has been so unhealthy-checks-unhealthy or broken-checks-broken for so long.

 

[Udum1]

a good team
https://pokepast.es/e23594e2d0de8cab

I suck so someone else make a team analysis

 

[gregdawiz]

Idk my thought with Kingambit is not that its broken necessarily without tera but its just so insanely powerful. I'm not thinking about Kingambit vs one of its answers, I'm thinking about Kingambit vs another sweeper with neutral matchup. Supreme Overlord really is that crazy and the bad part is that it's not like it even takes effort to get to 5SO kingambit. At that point i see it always beat a sweeping Gren/Rillaboom/WalkingWake outside of sun or locked into a water move/Garchomp/Thundurus-T and these are things bisharp would not be able to do since it didnt have the initial power/bulk to do so. Just feels like now your sweepers need to be a dark resists/have sucker punch counterplay to be able to beat this mon. That's not to say its necessarily banworthy but rather its just going to be this incredible force within the tier that rewards players more for playing worse, and it will continue to clutch close games as well as being a much more valuable asset to a team than bisharp ever was.

 

[heileone]

The difference between scarf lele/kart and kingambit lies in the fact that they don't actively get stronger as the team dies. They also get chipped by hazards and, the big thing, cannot run leftovers. Not only this, the metagames where lele and kartana are legal require them to come in quite often, where as kingambit only needs to come in one or two times a game. And getting a pivot pokemon knocked off is a bad play? That's almost inevitable because of how clickable knock off is as a move. You're assuming, again that humans are going to play perfectly and have the power of clairvoyance when that's never happening. People make mistakes, bad moves are clicked, pokemon get knocked. Like eventually your moltres is getting knocked, your lando is getting chipped, and the opponent's kingambit will be sitting on its stupid throne with a smirk

First off, moltres isnt a pivot pokemon, its a defensive wall. Most variants literally dont run uturn anyway, instead opting for double stab to do double time on zama and gambit. Getting your wall knocked is usually completely avoidable if you play correctly, and if you think otherwise then you must think chansey is just a worse blissey.

Second off, the idea that gambit only needs to come in once or twice a game is pretty absurd. Due to its honestly decent bulk and defensive typing a lot of team structures rely on it to come in and tank hits from pokemon like specs pult or ghold or rilla and then hit back with its massive attack stat. If you play like youre a pokemon down the whole game youre gonna be really restricted in team building and in play and eventually fall behind in mons, possibly even allowing your opponent to keep their gambit answers healthy (Ive seen this happen literally a million times). Of course, in the metagame today it doesnt really matter since gambit can tera through its answers, but obviously without it its a different story.

Also, "people make mistakes" is such a weird mindset to have in regards to whether or not a pokemon is broken or not. Its like, are you sure its broken or are you just bad? And its not even like tera less kingambit has an extremely slim margin of error where you need to play perfectly to beat it, theres so many things that can come in and beat it 1v1.

 

[P3DS]

What makes Valiant such a ban worthy threat in people’s eyes? Even prehome I thought Valiant to be a very manageable mon. It just seems so out of place when people talk about banworthy mons. Like, yeah, this guy on the same level as Manaphy and Wellspring, like, what?

Just like Kingambit is the ultimate reversal mon, Valiant is the Ultimate revenge killer. Very good offensive STABs, an ability that gives it a choice scarf (Only once per game with booster, or while terrain is up), and very potent physical, special and mixed sets, with strong setup options on both sides, and control options in Encore and Sub if needed. Honestly, booster is the issue I feel with it, but it's for a different time. It's got insane breaking power and its the perfect mon to revenge kill. It can domino quite hard with the right sequencing, such as becoming immune to Toxic to prevent slower teams handling it, thanks to going to a steel type (Though, Tera is not what breaks this mon, and I think its even scarier sans-Tera.). The mon is a menace.

However, a lot of people point out that, as a universal revenge sweeper, it kinda keeps some of the bigger out of control mons from going too far. IMO, its maybe behind Sneasler on my list, but only just. I've also put it on the last survey (And maybe the one before?) so I hope to see so

 

[arnimacarni]

a good team
https://pokepast.es/e23594e2d0de8cab

I suck so someone else make a team analysis

That's definitely not how it works around here lol interesting team though

Pivoting back to topic, I feel like when speaking about Sneasler, Gambit, Ghold, Val... we always need to remember this meta is temporary and literally about to end. I feel that it would be interesting to see a meta without some or all of them before DLC2, but I would like to stress that freaking Neck Raikou with a serviceable physical electric STAB and Iron Bridge with Solar Meteor Beam in Rain are coming and that we should set our priorities. When talking about tiering, I feel like we have three open fronts:

1. Actual broken/cheesy threats
2. State of Tera
3. State of Hazards

And not to say we're wasting time but I really feel like we should focus on the first rather than on the latter two. That's going to be the stuff that's going to make a difference long-term, other than that larger discussions need to be held in regards to Tera and Hazards which will go weeks into DLC2.

 

[woodgoldtwo]

That's definitely not how it works around here lol interesting team though

Pivoting back to topic, I feel like when speaking about Sneasler, Gambit, Ghold, Val... we always need to remember this meta is temporary and literally about to end. I feel that it would be interesting to see a meta without some or all of them before DLC2, but I would like to stress that freaking Neck Raikou with a serviceable physical electric STAB and Iron Bridge with Solar Meteor Beam in Rain are coming and that we should set our priorities. When talking about tiering, I feel like we have three open fronts:

1. Actual broken/cheesy threats
2. State of Tera
3. State of Hazards

And not to say we're wasting time but I really feel like we should focus on the first rather than on the latter two. That's going to be the stuff that's going to make a difference long-term, other than that larger discussions need to be held in regards to Tera and Hazards which will go weeks into DLC2.

What servicable physical electric stab? The only move we know it learns is Thunderclap which is a special move (which means it’s probably going to be a special attacker)

Proof

(from the official pokemon website) (red circle made by me)

 

[heileone]

That's definitely not how it works around here lol interesting team though

Pivoting back to topic, I feel like when speaking about Sneasler, Gambit, Ghold, Val... we always need to remember this meta is temporary and literally about to end. I feel that it would be interesting to see a meta without some or all of them before DLC2, but I would like to stress that freaking Neck Raikou with a serviceable physical electric STAB and Iron Bridge with Solar Meteor Beam in Rain are coming and that we should set our priorities. When talking about tiering, I feel like we have three open fronts:

1. Actual broken/cheesy threats
2. State of Tera
3. State of Hazards

And not to say we're wasting time but I really feel like we should focus on the first rather than on the latter two. That's going to be the stuff that's going to make a difference long-term, other than that larger discussions need to be held in regards to Tera and Hazards which will go weeks into DLC2.

Why would we worry about pokemon that arent even out yet? Those pokemon have no impact on the game whatsoever as of now and we know so little about them that its unreasonable to have any meaningful discussion as to whether they are broken or not. + sneasler is actually broken and also cheesy. Also the state of hazards is honestly fine from what I can tell just from laddering a bit after the gliscor ban. Seems like they got the right guy.

 

[Jappithegreat]

when is the gliscor ban gonna update on viability rankings?

 

[arnimacarni]

What servicable physical electric stab? The only move we know it learns is Thunderclap which is a special move (which means it’s probably going to be a special attacker)

Proof

View attachment 571215
(from the official pokemon website) (red circle made by me)

Oops nevermind then, I somehow was completely sure that it was going to be physical. Still my point stands, electric special Sucker Punch is one hell of a nightmare.

Why would we worry about pokemon that arent even out yet? Those pokemon have no impact on the game whatsoever as of now and we know so little about them that its unreasonable to have any meaningful discussion as to whether they are broken or not. + sneasler is actually broken and also cheesy. Also the state of hazards is honestly fine from what I can tell just from laddering a bit after the gliscor ban. Seems like they got the right guy.

My point regarding Great Neck and Archaludon was not so much regarding them but rather to bring attention to the fact that the meta is going to be shaken up very soon. I didn't go into listing which mons fall under which category for me, but I agree with you 100% in the "is this broken" category and should be looked at in a way that regardless of how DLC2 turns out to be, Sneasler will stay broken or cheesy.

My contention is directed rather at mons like Ghold and Gambit. Gholdengo is a mon that if banned will completely shake how we teambuild, and Kingambit seems to have reached a middle ground or consensus in the community where most ppl agree that its brokenness is in major part due to tera. Val falls also in this contentiousness, as there's some discussion on whether or not to ban Booster Energy, and the metagame around Val also can affect its viability due to resists and/or speed tiers.

I'm not saying "lets not do anything", I'm just saying "let's work smart". I'm happy to hear you report that the meta is shaping up nicely after the Gliscor ban, but Finch has already expressed interest in retesting it in DLC2. If we were to move forward with a Gholdengo suspect at this point, I'm confidently certain that it would be reverted come Dec 14th. However, Sneasler on the other hand... it does Dire Claw and Unburden things and will continue doing that no matter what drops in DLC2

In short, yea I agree with you lets kick Sneasler out. I wish it only had Poison Touch that's a way more fun and balanced set than Unburden

 

[tommytt22]

There's a lot to teambuild for this generation. It's hard to cover everything with only 6 slots, that's why I think so many people have differing opinions on what's broken. If you run offence then zamazenta is tough cause it's so fast. If you run balance then you get creamed by things like CB rillaboom and SD ogerpon. Stall struggles with nasty plot gholdengo. I still think gambit is problematic but I have a great win rate against it since I overprepare (and I think since gliscor left most are using tera on sneasler/rillaboom anyway).

i guess what im trying to say is... Bulk up tera poison corviknight stocks have never been higher!!

(But seriously we removed most of sneasler counterplay it probably has to go next, then gholdego/gambit)

 

[Ihatestall]

https://pokepast.es/3be63257456af0b9
My take on rillaboom ho, and it took me tilting 350 elo to find what works and what doesn’t.
So the core of rilla sneasler is a classic, and I decided to prove to everyone that sneasler is perfectly fine as is because I’m a 1500 and I’m really good at the game.
Some key notes:
One of gterrain’s greatest checks in gliscor is now gone, and you can finally breathe easy, knowing the moment ur opponents ghold dies, u win.
My specific variant really hates gambit. Gambit ban pls finch plsssss :(
Salazzle is a placeholder for a ghold/corv/heatran check. So far Salazzle is the only thing that comes to mind.
Since everyone and their moms are running fsight glowking, you kinda need a dark mon considering that 2 members just folds to fsight. Again, I like physical hydreigon cuz it’s based, but gambit is the pussy choice that should be banned superior choice.
Moth is there for a secondary form of speed control, assuming ur sneasler didn’t sweep.
hatt is your secondary win con, after your sneasler blew a big enough hole into the opponent
Rilla is terrain extender to abuse the shit out of halving eq damage for sneasler to kill as many mons as possible, and also allowing 4 more turns to switch into sneasler. Also using high horsepower cuz did I mention that this team hates gambit? And it also hates heatran.
As for sneasler , the poster child of todays controversy, he is perfectly balanced as to guessing the set, and the moment u guess wrong ur getting folded. I went with a traditional set replacing dire claw with gunk shot as I’ll rather play the missing lottery than would zapdos para this turn lottery.
And that’s all. Please ban gambit, I swear if I get one more game this mon becomes the best fairy/flying type I’ll cry. Any help is appreciated, and have a good day

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Idk my thought with Kingambit is not that its broken necessarily without tera but its just so insanely powerful. I'm not thinking about Kingambit vs one of its answers, I'm thinking about Kingambit vs another sweeper with neutral matchup. Supreme Overlord really is that crazy and the bad part is that it's not like it even takes effort to get to 5SO kingambit. At that point i see it always beat a sweeping Gren/Rillaboom/WalkingWake outside of sun or locked into a water move/Garchomp/Thundurus-T and these are things bisharp would not be able to do since it didnt have the initial power/bulk to do so. Just feels like now your sweepers need to be a dark resists/have sucker punch counterplay to be able to beat this mon. That's not to say its necessarily banworthy but rather its just going to be this incredible force within the tier that rewards players more for playing worse, and it will continue to clutch close games as well as being a much more valuable asset to a team than bisharp ever was.

I think playing around it would be more reasonable though without tera, as of right now with tera just like Volc it creates unreasonable endgame scenarios due to the boost provided for Kingambit to walk all over teams, without tera you can at least reasonably threaten a taunt or preserve a Zamazenta or Tusk to hard counter it rather than it going tera flying or tera fairy and walk all over them due to how easy it is to SD with tera gambit

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Gambit has a high degree of counters without Tera for sure, but its the fact with tera that it becomes far more difficult to crack. Especially when the sheer multitude of options it could tera into, I often have to guess fairy or flying, but I've been blindsided by damn tera Grass or Fighting. Sure that applies to a lot of mons, but the single turn Gambit can get off said tera can make taking down what's a last stand into a whole bigger nightmare.

While I don't think Tera is the single worst thing--It's more the abusers of it, vs the mechanic itself alone to me personally--The fact pokemon like Gambit can get the slight boost they need off a single turn is incredibly unpleasant. Even when trying to account for their tera, not being sure of what they'd turn into makes it highly aggravating. I'd rather see it go vs tera at the moment, way too strong and domineering in its current state.

 

[DaemonChop]

Well, tera might be gone because apparently the 19th typing

19th typing leak

is the Omnitype according to khu.

So assuming this new type is true to its name, it is likely super effective and resistant to everything that isn't itself being every type. If this is what it does that's gonna be scary.

Either way, we have gotten to the point where adapting to tera is damn near impossible due to the variance and it warping the game around it to an unhealthy extent. In doubles tera has not gotten to that point as it is way easier to punish a well timed tera due to the options that doubles has to deal with tera being far greater and tera being far more punishable there. I do believe that tera has no place in singles anymore though with the unhealthy dynamics its been encouraging in singles that feel unpunishable at times.

okay, surely gamefreak did not make a typing that beats everything and is beaten by nothing. even in their stupidest game design moments nothing has gotten that far. like flutter mane's stat spread might be a joke but there's a theoretical possible balancing idea there. Wouldn't it be more likely that this new type would be super effective to all, and be super weak to all, which is what we already thought?

 

[June Heat]

Well, tera might be gone because apparently the 19th typing

19th typing leak

is the Omnitype according to khu.

So assuming this new type is true to its name, it is likely super effective and resistant to everything that isn't itself being every type. If this is what it does that's gonna be scary.

Either way, we have gotten to the point where adapting to tera is damn near impossible due to the variance and it warping the game around it to an unhealthy extent. In doubles tera has not gotten to that point as it is way easier to punish a well timed tera due to the options that doubles has to deal with tera being far greater and tera being far more punishable there. I do believe that tera has no place in singles anymore though with the unhealthy dynamics its been encouraging in singles that feel unpunishable at times.

Maybe it’s like Shadow type from the GameCube games. Well more specifically the first one where nothing resists it.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

okay, surely gamefreak did not make a typing that beats everything and is beaten by nothing. even in their stupidest game design moments nothing has gotten that far. like flutter mane's stat spread might be a joke but there's a theoretical possible balancing idea there. Wouldn't it be more likely that this new type would be super effective to all, and be super weak to all, which is what we already thought?

I mean Galarian Darmanitan and pre nerf aegislash exists.

Probably just hits everything neutral but itself and resists everything but itself now that I looked a tiny bit closer. Either way I feel it could be busted as all hell. Since it says normally effective against Dragonite.

Regardless no reason to speculate on this thread. But knowing what the type is likely called definitely does give me concern that it will be crazy broken in some way, since tera is already busted enough in singles. But I mean if it gets tera banned faster, cool I guess.

I guess we shall see how busted the 19th tera type is

19th typing leak

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1724581229469843634

Omnitype probably

 

[KamenOH]

I mean Galarian Darmanitan and pre nerf aegislash exists.

Probably just hits everything neutral but itself and resists everything but itself now that I looked a tiny bit closer. Either way I feel it could be busted as all hell. Since it says normally effective against Dragonite.

Regardless no reason to speculate on this thread. But knowing what the type is likely called definitely does give me concern that it will be crazy broken in some way, since tera is already busted enough in singles. But I mean if it gets tera banned faster, cool I guess.

I guess we shall see how busted the 19th tera type is

19th typing leak

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1724581229469843634

Omnitype probably

Honestly it might just be neutral towards and from everything. And give a turtle a new uberinsane form.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

19th typing leak

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1724581229469843634

Omnitype probably

all right, this is a big milestone-number post so i should start the 6000s off with a big wham-o plot twist or major reveal of some sort to build dramatic tension

Hide

we've all been looking in the wrong direction. everyone sees omni-man and thinks "ah yes, it's the omnitype". but no one thinks it might be the man type. the 19th type… is us