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Basic idea is that the banders kill each other's checks. Both the FCs are improofs, Scales Poisonceus is a Scales user (no way), checks MDiancie, provides a Toxic immunity/TSpikes switchin and Knock immune.
Regen Miraidon, Moldy Kartana and CM Poisonceus could also work in this structure but eh
Yes, the paralysis chance. Also was this team based on my Kyukart team that I posted earlier in the thread?
Anyway incase of not once linering ill share 2 teams I recently made https://pokepast.es/c761514df74950f5 https://pokepast.es/9b8083eb970b862d
Both the team concepts. Dialga has quiet nature for doom desire. Nuzzle cause kart is kinda slow. Should probably have knock. Stone axe because rocks. Blace is a breaker.
Not much to say here. It’s imp, it’s kart. Bullet punch kos things quite nicely. Mortal spin does mortal spin stuff.
Arc poison is my answer to my 4 m spin mons. Pheromosa is a revenge killer and glance helps with mirai and the occasional Tina.
Basically what I said for the above arc poison. Also improofs pheromosa nicely. Mega steelix improofs my next thing and does the mega steelix stuff. Could also have mortal spin on it if you would like.
Both ice scales mons. Mirai improofs blace. (Also have y’all tried out spikes on miraidon its great). Primal kyogre checks snr ghost stuff and also just has great bulk.
Ho-oh checks snr ghost stuff. Improofed by miraidon. Blissey is well, blissey.
Are you tired of losing to MMX and Kartana? Can't seem to find a mon that can take hits from these nukes? Frustrated that every team you build have to run FC Miraidon and 2-3 mons that can cover MMX? Well what if I tell you that there is a mon that can wall BOTH MMX and Kartana, and what's more, take 0 damage in doing so? Don't believe me? Fall prostrate and look up, ye mighty. And behold:
Greninja-Ash (M) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gravity
- Strength Sap
- Baneful Bunker
- Knock Off
Many people may look at this set and exclaim: what lunatic would consider this mon to be a check to MMX and Kartana? What manner of madness has influenced this man to post such a vile and garbage set that clearly doesn't wall Kart OR MMX?
To be fair, you must have a very high IQ to even begin to comprehend the ingenuity of this set. With your Dark typing and Sap Sipper, you are immune to MAX'S Lumina Crash, Chloroblast and Strength Sap. You also resist and live Astral Barrage. This also goes for Kartana's Flower Trick. Not only that, After you switch into one of those MMX moves, you can outspeed and use Gravity, disabling them from using HJK. Baneful Bunker os there so you can block Kart's Gigaton Hammer. Then you are free to click Knock or Sap, all the while your opponent inches closer towards forfeiting due to such clear demonstration of the disparity between you and their skill level.
Now if course there are some concerns regarding moves such as Close Combat, Electro Drift and Gigaton Hammer. Or maybe instead of the MMX using Astral/Lumina/Chloro, they predict and immediately go for HJK. All of these are valid concerns. However they are only valid for unskilled players.
Firstly, you shouldn't be switching into moves that you don't resist/are immune to. The question is not "how does this mon wall MMX's CC or Kart's Hammer" but rather "Why didn't you switch to your FC Poison Arc/Miraidon or whatever to take those hits." Do you ask the electrician to prune your vineyard? Exactly. If you get outplayed, you simply don't deserve to use this set. Not only do you have to get predicted, but the MMX also has a 10% chance to miss their HJK. Therefore under normal circumstances, it is impossible for this set to die to HJK because they have to outpredict AND hit their inaccurate move.
That concludes the explanation for this objectively best Kart/MMX check available. If you dismiss this set as unviable or a meme, then I suggest you reconsider what constitutes a wall and increase your luck through meditation and prayer.
A very interesting Pokémon that I feel it's kinda underused are Offensive Miraidon and Eternatus.
Afaik, Eternatus is becoming quite popular lately because its stat distribution is just amazing: 140|95|95 bulk, can speed tie Mewtwo and has your average special attack of legendary. Miraidon trades some physical bulk and a bit of power for a bit of speed, but otherwise they're quite similar, and have been competing for quite some time. What I'm saying is that they do have the right tools to go on the offensive, specially after DLC. Those are not necessarily sets I'm using but more of some Ideas (Would be dumb to reveal the true set I'm using when I'm on a tournament). Let me show you some examples:
Freddy Turbina (Miraidon) @ Draco Plate/Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize/Electric terrain
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst/Electro Drift
- Judgement/Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch/Take Heart
- Steam Eruption/Strenght Sap/Torch Song
First goes he strongest Electric STAB depending on hability (NO, you don't use Rising voltage. Too unreliable as a source of damage). Plate + Judgement is mostly so the fat pink blob doesn't destroy your team, but if you don't care or are using specs you can always use Draco Meteor. Take Heart compensates the fact we're not using covert cloak while also making us more threatening, but is uncompatible with volt switch, and the last move is mostly filler, either to be setup sweeper with Torch song, to break through M-Steelix reliably with Steam Eruption (Torch song doesn't scale fast enough) or to stick on the field for longer.
The concept of skin + Boomburst isn't anything new, while Electric terrain Electro drift is actually stronger when the move is supereffective due to the terrain. Electric STAB is quite good because there's next to no good ground types outside M-Steelix in the tier, and Miraidon is the 3-5th fastest relevant pokémon in the tier, meaning often this pokémon can just sweep weakened teams.
Finally it's called Freddy turbina for the character who caused a scar in my knee for driving a bike like he did down the hill path of grass and dirt. I guess self-control wasn't a word in my mind as a kid, specially with the excitement of using a bike without training wheels the song transmits.
Rose Inc. (Eternatus) @ Draco Plate
Ability: Liquid Ooze / Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Energy / Judgement / Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Torch Song / Final Gambit
- Strength Sap
Offensive Eternatus is more popular than offensive Miraidon due to the fact it's a poison type Aka a pokémon who doesn't fear mortal spin. Dragon STAB of choice, Torch Song to setup, Poison STAB of choice and recovery in strenght Sap, with the option of using final gambit if necessary. Very few pokémon can properly handle this pokémon due to the Poison + Fire + Dragon combo being so effective as coverage, which is ironically a problem because of imposter; I've gotten reverse-sweep by Imposter chansey with this pokémon so many times... Still, if you have an answer this pokémon will easily end up games, which is also why I recommend Judgement over Dragon Energy if you're going offensive.
Mold Breaker is your standard wallbreaking hability, while Liquid Ooze is great to punish the most spammed move in the whole format who isn't revealed right away, and I would say offensive Eternatus is about the only good user of this hability; in case of liquid Ooze you want max attack investment but still -attack nature. Is just quite the flexible pokémon, even at top level, and It can often survive things you swear it should die to even if offensive, like Adamant Groudon's Precipice blades or a Life orb Deoxys attack's Lumina crash after rocks.
Rose Inc. is due to Chairman Rose, the dumbass who awoke this pokémon instead of waiting A SINGLE DAY, in an awful anti-climax only saved by Leon being an amazing champion gameplay-wise; Not named Macrocosmos because of Trademark issues.
PS: No, I'm not joking with the statements about Eternatus Bulk. I know stuff is quite bulky in BH, but you have to remember Eternatus has a very good defensive typing as well.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Lumina Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 354-421 (73.1 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 390-462 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: Thanks to the Porygon for giving me tips on those builds.
A very interesting Pokémon that I feel it's kinda underused are Offensive Miraidon and Eternatus.
Afaik, Eternatus is becoming quite popular lately because its stat distribution is just amazing: 140|95|95 bulk, can speed tie Mewtwo and has your average special attack of legendary. Miraidon trades some physical bulk and a bit of power for a bit of speed, but otherwise they're quite similar, and have been competing for quite some time. What I'm saying is that they do have the right tools to go on the offensive, specially after DLC. Those are not necessarily sets I'm using but more of some Ideas (Would be dumb to reveal the true set I'm using when I'm on a tournament). Let me show you some examples:
First goes he strongest Electric STAB depending on hability. Plate + Judgement is mostly so the fat pink blob doesn't destroy your team, but if you don't care or are using specs you can always use Draco Meteor. Take Heart compensates the fact we're not using covert cloak while also making us more threatening, but is uncompatible with volt switch, and the last move is mostly filler, either to be setup sweeper with Torch song, to break through M-Steelix reliably with Steam Eruption (Torch song doesn't scale fast enough) or to stick on the field for longer.
The concept of skin + Boomburst isn't anything new, while Electric terrain Electro drift is actually stronger when the move is supereffective due to the terrain. Electric STAB is quite good because there's next to no good ground types outside M-Steelix in the tier, and Miraidon is the 3-5th fastest relevant pokémon in the tier, meaning often this pokémon can just sweep weakened teams.
Finally it's called Freddy turbina for the character who caused a scar in my knee for driving a bike like he did down the hill path of grass and dirt. I guess self-control wasn't a word in my mind as a kid, specially with the excitement of using a bike without training wheels the song transmits.
View attachment 558445
Rose Inc. (Eternatus) @ Draco Plate
Ability: Liquid Ooze / Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Energy / Judgement / Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Torch Song
- Strength Sap
Offensive Eternatus is more popular than offensive Miraidon due to the fact it's a poison type Aka a pokémon who doesn't fear mortal spin. Dragon STAB of choice, Torch Song to setup, Poison STAB of choice and recovery in strenght Sap. Very few pokémon can properly handle this pokémon due to the Poison + Fire + Dragon combo being so simple, which is ironically a problem because of imposter; I've gotten reverse-sweep by Imposter chansey with this pokémon so many times... Still, if you have an answer this pokémon will easily end up games, which is also why I recommend Judgement over Dragon Energy if you're going offensive.
Mold Breaker is your standard wallbreaking hability, while Liquid Ooze is great to punish the most spammed move in the whole format who isn't revealed right away, and I would say offensive Eternatus is about the only good user of this hability; in case of liquid Ooze you want max attack investment but still -attack nature. Is just quite the flexible pokémon, even at top level, and It can often survive things you swear it should die to even if offensive, like Adamant Groudon's Precipice blades or a Life orb Deoxys attack's Lumina crash after rocks.
Rose Inc. is due to Chairman Rose, the dumbass who awoke this pokémon instead of waiting A SINGLE DAY, in an awful anti-climax only saved by Leon being an amazing champion gameplay-wise; Not named Macrocosmos because of Trademark issues.
PS: No, I'm not joking with the statements about Eternatus Bulk. I know stuff is quite bulky in BH, but you have to remember Eternatus has a very good defensive typing as well.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Lumina Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 354-421 (73.1 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 390-462 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
1.Umactually rising voltage deals more damage then electro drift with surge. (Except on ho oh or mega aero but those mons are figments of your imagination anyway)
2.Etern made me wonder, why isn’t gambit used on it more? Could be really good with something that gets walled by pogre or other Etern walls. Here’s a somewhat edited version of my previous team that showcases it. https://pokepast.es/cf188e64d19e5782
1.Umactually rising voltage deals more damage then electro drift with surge. (Except on ho oh or mega aero but those mons are figments of your imagination anyway)
2.Etern made me wonder, why isn’t gambit used on it more? Could be really good with something that gets walled by pogre or other Etern walls. Here’s a somewhat edited version of my previous team that showcases it. https://pokepast.es/cf188e64d19e5782
Rising Voltage isn't really used in practice, specially at top level, and there's 3 good reasons for that: Electric terrain, Yveltal and Ho-Oh. While Mega Aero is indeed figments of my imagination, Ho-Oh is not, is roughly as popular as Yveltal, if not more at top level and IDK why people (Specially Tea) keep with the gaslit that it's not. The problem is that Miraidon oftentimes wants to actually OHKO Yveltal or Ho-Oh, something impossible with Rising voltage outside crits. Also, remember that terrain only lasts 4-5 turns, making the whole move just unreliable.
252 SpA Choice Specs Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 368-434 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Miraidon Electro Drift (133.3251953125 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 464-548 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Miraidon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 452-534 (99.1 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Notice that the first set is specs while the other 2 are Draco plate (Chansey things), meaning the damage output is way worse and less flexible on item choice. And don't forget, they oftentimes use Ice scales meaning missing a OHKO without it is missing the 2HKO with Ice scales, which is a chance to be messed up badly or even stall you with roost.
Now that you mention it, you're right, Final Gambit is indeed a good move on Eternatus because it has great HP and Speed, meaning oftentimes it gets the OHKO. The only problem is opportunity cost, because using Final gambit means you're OK with not using Eternatus as Setup sweeper, which in some teams might be a worthy trade-off despite being so good as setup sweeper with Torch song regularly.
Rising Voltage isn't really used in practice, specially at top level, and there's 3 good reasons for that: Electric terrain, Yveltal and Ho-Oh. While Mega Aero is indeed figments of my imagination, Ho-Oh is not, is roughly as popular as Yveltal, if not more at top level and IDK why people (Specially Tea) keep with the gaslit that it's not. The problem is that Miraidon oftentimes wants to actually OHKO Yveltal or Ho-Oh, something impossible with Rising voltage outside crits. Also, remember that terrain only lasts 4-5 turns, making the whole move just unreliable.
252 SpA Choice Specs Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 368-434 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Miraidon Electro Drift (133.3251953125 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal in Electric Terrain: 464-548 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Miraidon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 452-534 (99.1 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Notice that the first set is specs while the other 2 are Draco plate (Chansey things), meaning the damage output is way worse and less flexible on item choice. And don't forget, they oftentimes use Ice scales meaning missing a OHKO without it is missing the 2HKO with Ice scales, which is a chance to be messed up badly or even stall you with roost.
Now that you mention it, you're right, Final Gambit is indeed a good move on Eternatus because it has great HP and Speed, meaning oftentimes it gets the OHKO. The only problem is opportunity cost, because using Final gambit means you're OK with not using Eternatus as Setup sweeper, which in some teams might be a worthy trade-off despite being so good as setup sweeper with Torch song regularly.
rising voltage isn't really used in practice because there's just not that big a need for it. miraidon's standard sets already beat yveltal and ho-oh with thunder cage, meaning the value you get from running any "offensive" miraidon set is inherently lower than usual, and electric surge boosting volt switch is something valuable rather than galvburst being stronger against specifically the flying types (which realistically aren't staying in on you anyway; even scales ho-oh doesn't want to eat mirai hits, as it still gets recover stalled, can't really do anything back, and also fears mortal). if there's any "offensive" miraidon set it's probably beads edrift/volt/energy/armor cannon or nplot/drift/draco judge/armor, as edrift hits basically all the same ranges as galvburst but you have beads boosting your other moves.
terrain running out is an inconvenience more than a substantial drawback. this only comes in to play when you've pivoted out as mirai and are clicking u-turn on the turn terrain expires; if your specs guy is being allowed to stay in for the full 5 terrain turns you've basically won the game.
While Mega Aero is indeed figments of my imagination, Ho-Oh is not, is roughly as popular as Yveltal, if not more at top level and IDK why people (Specially Tea) keep with the gaslit that it's not.
nowhere have i said (at least i don't think) that ho-oh isn't popular; i just think it doesn't really do much on most sets. as a diancie check it always has to fear being sent to the shops by revdance on specs / axe on mixed, scales sets are sort of ehh at checking all the special guys bar specifically snr ghostceus, forced boots is pain, and offensive sets have pretty severe imp issues unless you run a para move (at which point you are using 1 attack).
rising voltage isn't really used in practice because there's just not that big a need for it (...) if there's any "offensive" miraidon set it's probably beads edrift/volt/energy/armor cannon or nplot/drift/draco judge/armor, as edrift hits basically all the same ranges as galvburst but you have beads boosting your other moves.
Why do I keep forgetting Beads/Sword of ruin exists? Indeed it's the better hability because it boosts all your moves, and while it reveals itself meaning you cannot pretend it's defensive, and it'll miss the 2HKO on non-ice scales Arceus after rocks (Kinda important considering almost every serious team has an Arceus form) meaning electric boomburst is not worthless, the payoff of 33% more power on the other 3 moves is huge; that would have OHKOd M-Steelix instead of surviving on red in my game 2. I'll fix that for my next week If i decide to use it.
terrain running out is an inconvenience more than a substantial drawback. this only comes in to play when you've pivoted out as mirai and are clicking u-turn on the turn terrain expires; if your specs guy is being allowed to stay in for the full 5 terrain turns you've basically won the game.
I would say it's a drawback for a simple reason: It makes Rising Voltage even more inconsistent. If you switch in, you whiff your attack due to wrong prediction, switch out and pivot in, now you lose terrain the next turn, meaning you very often can't use rising voltage because locking yourself in a 70BP is asking to be setup fodder, a problem that neither electro drift nor Electric Boomburst suffer. Consistency is king in competitive, which is why you smogon users don't tend to like the inherently inconsistent HO style and prefer to play safe if there's no big loss on not being agressive, because the winner is the one who avoids to lose, not the one who wins the most, and you only use high BP moves if it guarantees certain KO.
nowhere have i said (at least i don't think) that ho-oh isn't popular; i just think it doesn't really do much on most sets. as a diancie check it always has to fear being sent to the shops by revdance on specs / axe on mixed, scales sets are sort of ehh at checking all the special guys bar specifically snr ghostceus, forced boots is pain, and offensive sets have pretty severe imp issues unless you run a para move (at which point you are using 1 attack).
3Sorry for my poor wording. What I meant is how people like you sell Ho-Oh almost as if it's a noob lure like DPP Electivire. In that case, yes you said, and I quote "(...) a sample size of two (one of which, Ho-Oh, is "viable" but not good)" in this thread; The other is Yveltal btw, the other popular rock-weak pokémon around. Meanwhile, the smogon data showcases both being roughly equal both in usage and effectiveness, something who also got translated to the tournament. Would say more but that's more fitting for the VR.
- we're opening sample team submissions. we've had a pretty poor record of getting samples in and them being outdated literally a week later, so opening them up directly after the end of the suspect should hopefully minimize the chance of this happening.
here's an example submission (you don't have to follow the format exactly, but it makes things easier):
Team name: Giant-Crusher Synopsis: Dual Screens HO ft. Mold Breaker Kartana Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/c589412442cb1131 Usage tips: As tempting as it is to lead Slowbro every game, it's often not the best use of your time, both in terms of counterleading your opponent and in terms of screens' actual value in that game. In games with a suspected Simple Ghost on the other side, preserve Yveltal's HP in order to snipe it with Wicked Blow. Kartana's best used when Imposter is paralyzed or absent, as this leaves it with essentially zero counters besides repeated sacks to get V-create drops. Gunk Shot Arceus-Ghost allows it to snipe MAudino and Arceus-Fairy without any necessary team support. Weaknesses: Fur Coat Dondozo, despite being otherwise awful, puts a major dent in this team's progress-making ability, as Kartana lacks a Grass move. Rock move Diancie can put you in a dodgy position if you don't have any screens up. Yveltal's Imposter-proof is Diancie, which doesn't have recovery, so this will in most likelihood go down on the third time Imposter copies Yveltal. Fur Coat Miraidon can be inconvenient to get progress against if Diancie's not very healthy. Effectiveness: Went 28-4 on suspect ladder, has remained strong in private games.
Usage Tips: spam knock off, Stone axe and mortal spin. Scout for coverage. Use enemy mmx to sweep once their team is crippled.
Weaknesses: Simple Fillet Away Belch Hoopa-U, Well-Baked Body Celesteela, No Guard Eternatus-Eternamax with Sheer Cold.
Effectiveness: 29-4 on suspect, lost twice to Hoopa, once to WBB celesteela with hazards, once with previous version. Reached 1630 easily with no losses from 1450 Reached 1550 on 2 other alts easily as well.
Team name: Disproportionately Large Amount of Trumpets Compared to What Should Be Normally Possible - Magic Guard Zekrom + Electric Surge Miraidon
(if the name's too long whichitclearlyisn'tsmhmyhead, just call it Too Many Trumpets.)
Synopsis:
Wanted to build MAltaria, ended up with double Dragon/Electrics. Zekrom is a cool mixed wallbreaker that can surprise stuff like Ice Scales Arceus formes coming in with a STAB Volt Tackle (or the reverse, with Fur Coats taking a Draco Meteor), and also exploit passive walls trying to use Salt Cure/Mortal Spin to make progress. Miraidon can help Zekrom (as will Zekrom help Miraidon) chip down MLix, Groundceus, Ice Scales Arceus formes, and Dialga-O because apparently that's still viable, while powering up Zekrom’s Volt Tackles. MAltaria is the safest Zekrom improof, checks MChomp, Ash-Greninja, MMX to an extent and random fringer stuff like MBlaziken. Fairyceus provides a Knock immune, spreads poison and checks SNR Ghosts. PSea Registeel is passive as hell but I needed a Kyurem-B + Kartana + MDiancie + Mortal Spin blocker + Fairyceus improof all in 1 slot so lol.
Weaknesses:
- Well Baked Body/PSea MLix. Low ladder stuff, don’t worry too much about it. (well at least until this somehow actually makes it onto the samples and people start cteaming)
- Headlong Rush Kartana can breeze straight through Registeel because, well, PSea doesn’t block Ground moves, and then the rest kinda loses. It’s not that common though, because it forces you into rather suboptimal improofs (sap fc ashield fireceus amazing), so just cope. Headlong Rush MDiancie can do the same, but Ice Scales Fairyceus can check it for a while.
- SNR Ghostceus plus SNR Lunala. Lunala can click Final Gambit on your Fairyceus, and then Ghostceus instantly wins. To be fair, I don’t think most cores can actually stand to this if Lunala gets the Final Gambit correctly. Try to out offense them - Spam PShots aggressively or try to double switch Miraidon into Ghostceus or Zekrom into Lunala.
Hello my name is not a gamer today ima talk to you about 3 neato mirai moves that seem kinda rare Magma storm:
Now you may be thinking “isn’t that already overlapping with cage” however, magma storm actually stacks with thunder cage for even more chip damage. Amazing, isn’t it? It also evades cloak unlike mortal and salt cure. Will o wisp:
Will o wisp takes miraidons speed even further. Ever felt like switching into physical mons such as kart and mmx multiple times is daunting? Worry less longer! Will o wisp neutralizes these Pokémon nigh completely! *will o wisp is difficult to improof, however. Basically requires something like take heart arc ground. spikes
As a trapper, miraidon can set spikes well and be improofed easily. Simply run arceus ground/mega steelix!.
Thank you for coming to my little Ted talk hope you enjoyed. Have fun experimenting with more miraidon.
Edit: also here’s my sample submission
Team name:I love air conditioning Synopsis:semi stall ft. Blacephalon. Pokepaste:https://pokepast.es/f46a111b61e7b25b Usage tips:Don’t play too reckless with blacephalon. Switch in ho oh on arc ghost/lunala. Glare faster offensive threats. Mortal spin the defensive ones. weaknesses: Can break through this team very easily.
Magic guard switching into mortal spin is very threatening. Steelix and ho oh can’t handle steam eruption, miraidon can’t handle dragon energy. Team effectiveness:
Made it to 1300 really easily (in about 17 games). From there I won very consistently. Lost to a gimmicky misty surge Etern team but I beat the same team 2 other times. I made it to 1400 in like 21 games.
Forgot to write this in but does anyone find dealing with Take Heart a lil overbearing sometimes? The sheer amount of role compression and offensive presence it provides at the same time is a little nutty to me but idk if any of you guys agree lol
Dahm it. If only I was good enough the hazard would have been banned... Oh wait it needs to be 20/13, not 19/13 to reach the 60% Mayority. While I don't mind Celesteela and Eternatus becoming popular, I do mind a meta so utterly defensive and centered more around chip damage than around crazy powermoves and creative counterplay to those powermoves; yes, it's indeed very defensive according to the stalliness of smogonstats; if it's higher than 1 you know there's a problem.
Also, since I no longer I'm on the tournament...
Name: La legenda de Barbie Chañaral
Summary: A Bulky offense team who tries to enable fast game-ending threats, with an special guest. Originally it was just your regular Diancie-Mega team, but evolved into a peculiar one over time due to learning about the meta and moves during the tour.
Usage: It's a relatively standard balance core, 3 defense and 3 offense. On the defensive side it tries to enable their big hitters and revenge killers as often as possible. It does so via softening the enemy defenses with knock off, mortal spin ans salt cure earlier on, with the defensive core of Arceus-Poison, Yveltal and Kyogre-Primal, the latter one being decent on offense so is not setup fodder, Arceus-Poison being almost impossible to knock down with tons of residual damage, and Yveltal being mostly a support to stop setup most setup sweepers although it's not very threatening on its own, just the one who does the dirty job.
Once done it tries to pivot towards the heavy hitters: All-Out attacker Diancie-Mega who will end up using Extreme speed and boomburst against almost everything with ocassional coverage against Steel types, a Mix Magic Guard + Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X with Chloroblast as coverage to break some checks the team has, and the star of the team and also Chañaral, Freddy Turbina, the Beads of ruin Choice Specs Miraidon that outspeeds and 2HKOs just about everything with that 135 speed, let alone if it's supereffective. If something doesn't go to plan, trust Diancie-Mega and its Extreme Speed, as well as MMX and Miraidon probably outspeeding the entire enemy team.
Weaknesses: Ground types because it has 3 ground weaknesses, and to a lesser extent Setup sweepers because it lacks imposter Chansey; Tidy up Groudon and Swampert are particularly problematic, and that's why I have Prankster Haze Yveltal, Steam Eruption on both Kyogre and Freddy, and Chloroblast Mega-Mewtwo-X. Also can't counter Kartana if it has headlong rush and mold breaker, so it must be kept in offensive check; that's why Diancie has Armor cannon. Finally, Deoxys-Attack usually both outspeeds you and prevents priority, meaning you need to outsmart said pokémon.
Effectiveness: Oddly high. I've been in a bit of a winstreak with the alt account I used to try to win the suspect test, like 12 atm or so atm and counting, with maybe a single defeat; In hindsight I should have that team instead of the regular team built around unaware Lunala. I also used it on tournaments and I don't recall it failing me, even when Miraidon and Arceus weren't optimal yet.
Finally, the team in question is here if you wanna try it.
That being said, I think I should change its name to "La leyenda de CHAÑARAL" because of Miraidon's nickname. For the ones you don't understand the nickname yet, this is the reason... and also why I have a scar on my right knee and elbow.
Forgot to write this in but does anyone find dealing with Take Heart a lil overbearing sometimes? The sheer amount of role compression and offensive presence it provides at the same time is a little nutty to me but idk if any of you guys agree lol
I would, if it wasn't because we still have Mortal spin legal (Sorry. I really tried to but I just couldn't convince enough people). Take Heart is a calm mind on steroids, but is somewhat slow as a setup move due to being only +1 on special attack and no speed increase; if it was like Dragon Dance I would call for a quickban btw, but without the speed tiers make the user still vulnerable to revenge kill unless you're Miraidon, a mon with serious 4MSS.
Since sample submissions are open, I'll submit a team for consideration:
Team Name: The Penultimate Plague
Synopsis: The team is a bulky offense build centered around abusing unconventional Pokemon like Population Bomb Mega Lopunny, set-up Reshiram, and Liquid Ooze Hisuian Zoroark to overwhelm physical walls and win the game.
Usually, it is best to start a game by scouting with Imposter Blissey and pivoting around with Probopass until some opportunities for Lopunny to wall break present themselves. Be patient at first and be sure to take into account that Population Bomb can whiff. Once you have an opponent's physical walls weak enough you can pin your opponents back to a wall with a well-timed Hisiuan Zoroark switch into their Strength Sap. Once their physical walls have fallen then Lopunny and Reshiram can play more aggressively as the opponent will struggle to find ways to counter them long-term. Throughout a game also take note of what special walls and physical threats have fallen as clearing those can open the way for Arceus Fairy to crush opposing teams with Taunt and Take Heart.
Weaknesses: Jungle Healing Fur Coat Arceus Ghost, Itemless Giratina and Aegislash, Stone Axe, and Dragon and Ground Type Physical Attackers.
Effectiveness: Yes.
Additional Notes:
* Vs opposing Take Heart Pokemon IMMEDIATELY go into Arceus Fairy and shut them down with Taunt before they get out of hand
* Against Miriadon preserve Blissey's Covert Cloak as that will almost always allow one to win the 1 v 1 vs it
* If an opponent has their Imposter alive be sure to preserve Hisiuan Zoroark as Zoro is the easiest way for the team to Imposter Proof Arceus Fairy and Lopunny
* Whenever Hisiuan Zoroark gets a free turn U-Turning for momentum and Super Fanging for damage are generally the most fruitful plays
* If an Imposter copies Reshiram don't be afraid just trap it and set up to max with Tidy Up as an Imposter generally doesn't have enough Spirit Shackle pp to kill you
We're likely to take action on Salt Cure and Lumina Crash soon
People are finding building the tier a very poor, unsatisfying experience to a degree not really seen before
We're going to try and work to make the tier both more competitive and less monotone
1. How much are you currently enjoying BH?
This averages to 6.32, which is a notable step down from last time's 7.475. This is most likely due to the meta settling down from the full dex transition and people optimizing builds, which is inherently going to lead to a bit of centralization - however, a drop of this extent isn't exactly desirable by most means.
2. How competitive do you think BH is?
This averages at 6.79, which is down from last time's 6.9. This is a bit of concern since this is normally lower than usual at the start of a new meta, and being lower even than that is surprising. This is likely due to the centralization around specific walls like Miraidon and Arceus-Fairy leading to dominance over the matchup if you can successfully counter them, in addition to things like Salt Cure and Mortal Spin being much more prevalent than earlier in full dex.
3. How flexible do you think building is?
This is far and away the most concerning part of the survey, with a massive variance and an average of only 5.33. It's perhaps unsurprising given the feedback we've been getting, but the nature of most attackers in the tier means that you often need an incredibly robust check to them or you simply fail to beat them - this ends up creating very centralized defensive cores that struggle to check all the things they're supposed to. Strategies like chip damage spamming also limit how "good" teambuilding can really get in terms of prepping for them.
4. What do you think about Mega Mewtwo X?
This ended up with just over 40% wanting action and about 75% not opposed. This is a pretty big number and is likely driven by MMX's great set versatility that allows it to invalidate basically any check it wants with the right coverage move. In conjunction with the fact that many of these options overlap with Imposter, and that it has good Speed and bulk, it can be very hard to reliably prevent this snowballing on a game-to-game basis.
5. What do you think about Mega Diancie?
This has around about the same proportion not opposed to action, but many more people in the wouldn't pursue category. Mega Diancie is weird because it doesn't really have any long-term walls, but at the same time, it also has longevity issues and 4MSS meaning it will rarely be able to solo a team by itself barring some funky stuff like Final Gambit Eternatus. Some people were claiming this as problematic, but for now it seems like it's not too dire an issue.
6. What do you think about Kartana?
This vote is much more split. Kartana often forces specific answers like Fur Coat Miraidon, Primordial Sea Steel-types, or something like Fur Coat Dialga-O to really be reliably walled; this is exacerbated when paired with a sapblocker like a Magic Bounce user. However, it seems like its relatively low Speed, inability to get past Miraidon in most instances (thanks to improofing Mold Breaker being a nightmare), and paltry special profile in a meta where Torch Song is reasonably common limit it enough.
7. What do you think about Fillet Away?
This is the largest proportion of Quickban ASAP votes the survey has. Fillet by nature is inconsistent and in most cases ends up as a matchup fish tool; this can be seen as far back as pre-full dex, usually when combined with Imprison, although it also saw some other use. While clamping down all randomness is a pointless and frankly inachieveable goal, reducing matchup inconsistency is generally something desirable, which would improve with Fillet gone.
8. What do you think about Salt Cure?
This is a much wider range of people in support of tiering action, with about 5/6 of the entire pool not opposed to action. With Mortal staying, Cloak isn't realistically going anywhere, but even still this manages to be an issue for forcing chip on things that either lack Cloak (like RegenVest POgre) or have had them knocked. This can also give rise to situations where the best bet is to hang back and force tons of passive damage on the opponent. 25% chip every turn is also kind of insane with how easily it can force switches and essentially give you the position advantage by itself.
9. What do you think about Lumina Crash?
A similarly large amount of people in favour of action on this move. Crash is perhaps even more punishing than Salt Cure for things that lack Covert Cloak, but is bounded in this effect by the amount of things using it, which are largely limited to Psychic-types (chief among which is MMX). This is in a bit of an awkward spot in terms of tiering policy, since with Protean gone it's only really 2 things that have been problematic with it (MMX and MMY), but this doesn't mean that a ban is impossible.
10. Is there anything else tiering-wise that you think should be looked at?
Stone Axe - 7 mentions
Knock Off - 2 mentions
Resuspecting PH - 2 mentions
Regigigas / Slaking - 2 mentions
Imposter - 2 mentions (not happening ever)
Ability clause - 1 mention
Sword of Ruin - 1 mention
Mold Breaker - 1 mention
Take Heart - 1 mention
Ban V-create + free Groudon-Primal - 1 mention
Flinching stuff (like King's Rock and Triple Arrows) - 1 mention
Stone Axe is a massive outlier here - especially given Mortal remaining, the opportunity cost of not having Boots is massive, meaning that many threats end up being harder to check thanks to the relative lack of Boots or Leftovers. Essentially permanent rocks also arguably gives too much power to Regenerator, which is generally something undesirable. Ability Clause only majorly improves the health of the tier by limiting Regenrerator, as offensive pokemon have mutliple side-grade options that do basically the same thing while you'd be limited to only one Fur Coat user, and at that point we could just consider tiering action on Regenerator.
The above data is honestly pretty concerning and highlights a major issue that the tier is currently facing, being that the tier is stale and matchups are inconsistent. This isn't helped by the fact that, of the offensive threats in question, all are difficult to prep for but few (if any) are individually banworthy, meaning the solution gets harder to solve. There's not really many blanket bans we can do that will help solve the situation (the only major one is Stone Axe, and whether it actually solves the problem or not is unknown), and there's nothing on the banlist we can potentially free to solve the situation, as the only potentially "defensive" things on the banlist we can free introduce new problems and only partially fix the old ones (Shedinja, Slaking, Innards Out, etc), and things like ability-freed Zygarde-C are inaccessible via game mechanics (freeing it would lead to another BH re-definition). It's pretty demoralizing that we're in this position, especially given the cards Game Freak has given us, but I don't want that to be an excuse for inaction. I had a conversation with pdt that highlights this pretty well:
The difficulty is that we don't really have a solution right now. We can keep banning stuff and hope we naturally reach a good point, we can implement builder changes like Ability Clause or switch to Species Clause instead of Forme Clause (essentially freeing multiple Arceus formes on the same team), or we can do something more radical like going back to regular dex. I'm sort of asking here because there is no one clear way forward (let alone a best option), and I don't really want what is basically the fate of the tier for the forseeable future being decided by just council. OMWC is coming up, which should hopefully give us some time to sit on this idea, but it's pretty clear that the meta in its current state doesn't have much staying power.
Given the data we have above, and that OMWC is starting soon, we decided that a Fillet Away vote would likely be the best course of action - Fillet ban reduces variance and matchup fishing while not significantly altering the meta in the same way that the other potential voting targets (Salt Cure and Lumina Crash) would. Below are the votes:
////////
Tea Guzzler
augustakira
TTTech
Chessking345
Fillet Away
Ban
Ban
Ban
Ban
As such, Fillet Away is banned from BH! Tagging Kris to implement on ladder.
Team Description -
Mega Garchomp is crazy and has the potential to just roll over teams with one SG, and it gets numerous setup opportunities thanks to typing and raw power. 9 Def IVs ensure that Eviolite Imposter is OHKOed after boost, and if Deo-A isn’t too big of an issue then Tidy is also an option. Blades is also a potential option over Headlong for PP and no defense drops. Jungle provides a small amount of recovery to offset chip and LO recoil while making it a solid switch in into standard Miraidon. Chomp has some issues against FC Fairyceus and Ghostceus, making Scales Nihilego an excellent partner by semi sapblocking while also checking Diancie variants and providing a slow pivot. Nihilego’s low defense and ground weakness works well here by allowing Chomp to improof. Pop Bomb Diancie is another strong breaker that takes advantage of FC Yveltal teams, with Pop Bomb achieving feats like 2HKOing Ho-Oh and putting non FC Arc into Espeed range. Chomp helps against FC Poisonceus teams. Helmet Nihilego improofs Diancie. Fur Coat Yveltal improofs Chomp and does normal Yveltal things like checking Kartana, mixed MMX and Ghostceus. Ice Scales Waterceus is an unconventional pick but the Arceus slot is open and Waterceus’s significantly higher physical bulk compared to Primal Kyogre means it can do stuff like check Diancie and sponge Kyu-B Glacial and Kartana Gigaton. The moveset also can allow it to be very notorious for teams to deal with effectively. Doubling on Ice Scales is mostly for security considering Nihilego’s inconsistency but if feeling creative there are a myriad of abilities that can work here to adjust matchups.
Usage -
General gameplan with the team is to rely on the two powerful breakers to punch holes in opposing team, while keeping in mind of opportunities for a Chomp sweep. Nihilego is the teams only source of pivoting but keeping its Rocky Helmet intact is also crucial for improofing Diancie, so aggressive switching and predicts are highly useful. Garchomp itself can hard switch into many mons (provided no Knock Off) and can be played aggressively. Yveltal’s health should be kept reasonably high to ensure it can Improof Chomp. Use Waterceus as the primary Knock Off absorber, and depending on the matchup consider any other mon that can take Knock Off.
Threats -
Salt Cure can be annoying to deal with considering 0 cloak or Magic Guard users, and it prevents Waterceus from going out of control. Play around this using Teleport Nihilego, Imposter, and Chomp
Take Heart FC Ghostceus isn’t too bad by itself but can be annoying for Yveltal to remove hazards against, pressure hard with Yveltal and Garchomp and limit sap healing with Nihilego. Tidy Up on Chomp helps.
Mold Breaker sets from MMX and Kartana threaten to do massive damage against Yveltal. Imposter is useful to midground both and Waterceus can sponge Kartana Gigaton. Ability Shield Yveltal is not recommended but can be used.
Eternatus is threat since it outspeeds everything and muscles through Scales with Moldy. Keeping Dragon Energy power low is incredibly useful and Diancie can also soft check. Changing Nihilego to Sand Stream (and all recover clones to Shore Up, but not Sap!) can help against it.
Celesteela can soft check (or hard check with the rare Fur Coat) Garchomp and can’t really be limited by Nihilego. Luckily it can’t run every ability at once and has limited bulk, making it possible to be chipped down by Glaive Rush and pressured by Diancie.
Cloak Imposter walls Waterceus, try to Knock it, not a huge issue since Chansey Improofs and Block is unaffected by Cloak. Can change Shackle to Block if seeing a significant amount of Cloak Imposter.
Effectiveness -
This team won one game in Money Tour (albeit not the best showing) and I want to say could’ve won another if I cut Chomp defense. Afaik some players like Poliwag has been trying it on ladder to decent success.
——————————————
I wanted to also comment on the survey results and Tea’s comments.
My personal opinion is that the current meta is actually quite good in all aspects. It feels reasonably fun and enjoyable, is competitive, and teambuilding has good amount of room for creativity and experimentation. I’ve seen and helped build teams that are incorporating creative sets and mons that fulfill specific niches on the team while performing that role quite well along with usually compressing some other useful roles. Taking a look at the VR (newly updated! check it out if you haven’t already) every Pokemon on it, including the C rank, is perfectly viable. A good number of UR mons are also quite solid on certain teams.
Multiple team styles are also present. Offense players are building successful offensive teams, traditional Balance and SemiStall are good as always, and I guarantee TTTech among others are stalling.
In addition, I think that a centralized defensive mon selection is a typical behaviour of BH. In USUM we saw the dual fat Dragons, the unviable Steels, and stuff like POgre. In SWSH we saw presences like Eternatus and Zama-C (diverse meta pre-dlc was like only because the selection was all bad). In NatDex we see Zyg-C, Dialga-O, Arc-Water Ground dominating. In BH due to unrestricted possibilities for coverage you are bound to not be able to reliably check everything.
I think that cooking with unconventional sets and mons might not make the most consistent and the best performing teams overall, but they do provide a nice break from the “standard traditional” stuff people seem to be having issues with.
Synopsis: Hyper offense that overwhelms any resist with the power of explosion.
You can change kyurem's explosion to a better move if you want but that makes the team less funny.
The year is 2023. Big Imposter has infiltrated society. You may not realise it yet, but people you find on the ladder are Big Imposter in disguise. Need proof? Simply analyse their team. Can you find the pattern and similarities between them? Legend has it that only someone who can figure out the four secret elements of modern BH teams can defeat Big Imposter. I have provided 9 completely original, creative, never-before seen teams below. They all have unique and engaging gameplay that is completely different from every other BH team ever conceived.
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Team Name: MARI Venu Ho-oh
Synopsis: Calamari
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/a5e52a050e856fd8
Usage Tips: Spam knock off, stone axe and mortal spin, then try to get kills with Venusaur, Ho-oh or Arceus.
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Team Name: MARI Diancie Chomp
Synopsis: Calamari
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/d120be5c4820c118
Usage Tips: Spam knock off, stone axe and mortal spin, then try to get kills with Diancie, Chomp or Arceus.
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Team Name: MARI Diancie Kyub
Synopsis: Calamari
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/69a1266d9e59c21e
Usage Tips: Spam knock off, stone axe and mortal spin, then try to get kills with Diancie, Kyu-b or Arceus.
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
Effectiveness: 니 나한테 뭐라켔노? 가스나 같은기. 내는 마, 어! 임마, UDT 1등으로 졸업해서 어! 알카이다 이시키들도 잡으로 기밀임무도 수행했고! 어! 대한민국 국군 최고 특등사수여. 니는 내한테는 표적지 하나 뿐이 안되 마. 역사상 한번도 삔적 없는 정확도로 니를 밀어뿌릴끼야. 인터넷이라꼬 니가 안전할거 같애? 함더 대가리 굴리봐 이새끼야. 내가 마, 이소리 직이싸면서 동시에 한국 내 모든 정보자산을 동원해가 니 IP 주소 추적하고 있어. 이 시바 폭풍이 몰아쳐쌀꺼니까 좆부리 단디 잡고 기둘겨. 니를 지워버릴끼여. 닌 뒤진줄 알어. 내는 마, 신출귀몰해가 동에 번쩍 서에 번쩍하고 마, 내 손만으로도 700개의 각기 다른 방법으로 니를 직이뿔끼야. 내가 마, 어, 맨손 다이다이 뿐만 아니라 마, 한국 해병대에 임마, 어, 친구도 있어서 임마, 동원할 수도 있고, 원하면 니를 지워뿔수 있다카이. 니가 임마 입놀린거 땜에 니한테 일어날 일을 알았다면 새끼 입 싹 다물고 있었겠제. 그치만 이미 놀려버린 혓바닥이 있으니까 그 값을 치러야제? 병신시키야. 니한테 임마 분노의 똥을 싸질러가 익사시키뿐디야. 뒤진줄알어
I've been seeing a lot of people in the OM discord server struggling with building competent defensive cores in the current meta. Many of them are resorting to a very limited supply of "proven" archetypes that they can just plug in to any team alongside their offensive mons and Imposter. A great example of that is the above post about the "MARI" core of Miraidon, Arceus, Regenvest, Imposter.
In this post I'm gonna talk about how I go about building defensive cores, the flaws I see in the commonly spread around defensive cores like MARI, why building defensive cores feels so rough nowadays and what can be done about it from a tiering perspective.
What exactly is a defensive core and what does it need to do?
A defensive core is a group of 2-4 mons that serve the purpose of taking hits from opposing breakers and forcing said breakers out by threatening damage, status, pivoting into your own offensive threats or any other effect that they can't allow themselves to take.
This post is geared towards the most common type of Balanced Hackmons team, Balance / Semi-Stall. Stall teams also have primary defensive cores alongside support or specialised mons, but that isn't the subject here.
On balance teams, the defensive core is tasked with checking every possible offensive threat, which is obviously impossible in a tier with as much freedom in building, however a good defensive core will be able to check as many of these as possible, while also minimising the one-sidedness of poor matchups (in other words, even if you can't wall something, you should be able to play around it with good predictions).
However, if you limit your defensive core to only this role, you'll find opposing teams quickly wearing you down while never giving you a chance to strike back. Defensive cores must not only be able to hold off threats, but generate momentum back to allow your offensive mons to make progress against the opponent.
This is more important than ever in the current meta compared to previous generations of Balanced Hackmons due to the PP reduction of healing moves. Now it is easier than ever for your 8 recovers to get drained by a persistent offense. This has led to many teams resorting to Strength Sap for its increased healing and pp as well as its ability to role compress as setup counterplay against some single-stage physical boosters. However the prevalence of Sap-blocking techniques like Magic Bounce, Liquid Ooze or simply mons with extremely low attack like Chansey makes it a struggle for Sap users to stay afloat over long games, meaning in any case it is important that defensive cores not just sit around doing nothing while their hp pool is drained.
Additionally, the movepools of defensive mons are even more strained than they would otherwise be by the presence of Imposter. Imposter is able to act as a soft-check to a majority of breakers and as such most teams seek to wear it down with damage and status. However when a defensive mon is brought in, that's an opportunity for Imposter to heal up and potentially even cure its status effects. Common counterplay like trapping moves are worse than ever with the only choices being the passive Mean Look or the inconsistent (due to covert cloak) and still weak Spirit Shackle.
Defensive cores are also often tasked with including pivoting, hazard setting and removal, status control and countering opposing defense with stuff like Magic Bounce. All in all that's a lot of roles to compress into very few mons.
In summary a defensive core is given the impossible task of
- Checking the myriad offensive threats in the tier
- Threatening them back hard enough to prevent them from spamming attacks and pp stalling your healing
- Not getting sapblocked if it uses sap (which is often mandatory with the power of physical breakers and accessibility of Victory Dance)
- Setting Hazards (not mandatory and offensive mons can help here)
- Removing Hazards
- All of the above while not allowing Imposter to benefit from copying them
If this was possible in only ~3 slots + Imposter, there would be no reason for stall teams to exist, you just can't do it.
The skill in building a defensive core comes from finding where exactly you can compromise depending on what your offensive mons can do.
My method for making defensive cores.
I, and I feel like this is the case for most BH players, generally build my teams around the offensive mons first, with the defensive core serving to complement them. You can build your defensive core first, there's absolutely no problem with that and I've done it myself a couple times, but this methodology is best when you already have an idea of how your progress will be made, you just need to figure out how to survive long enough to make that progress.
I'll be using this team I used against RoFnA for the first match of our BH money tour set as my example of the building process.
Most teams require at least one "unusual" defensive pick, most often for improofing an unconventional breaker. However in my case the concept for the team involved one of the defensive mons. I wanted to use Choice Band Ash-Greninja as a physical breaker due to its high speed and ability to OHKO most common regenvests, meaning that the answer to it will have to be a Fur Coat user, unable to recover and pivot on the same turn and most relying on Strength Sap to heal.
As such, my first question and probably the most valuable question when building your defensive core isn't "how do I wall xyz?". The question is: When my breaker gets walled, what am I going to switch in and how am I going to avoid losing my momentum?
On a lot of teams, this is the role of the regenvest user. Regenvests are naturally good at saving turns since they don't need to spend any to heal up and they have enough free moveslots to carry pivoting moves to allow them to switch in a frailer mon safely after the opponent has already moved. Regenvests are quite good when paired with highly powerful breakers, but can fall short when you need to slowly chip down Imposter or you need to sapblock the opposing physical wall, since few good regenvests have low enough attack to sapblock and struggle to avoid giving Imposter free health and a 50/50 chance to gain momentum whenever they come in. Not to mention even if you underspeed Imposter, if they didn't click pivot as well, few breakers are able to deal with a copied regenvest, lacking the power to OHKO it or the resistance to its utility moves. As such, regenvests are not a good fit for every team.
On this team, my goal was to block Strength Sap from Fur Coat Arceus, Miraidon and Yveltal while getting my fast physical breakers in Greninja and Kartana in as often as possible to force switches with their high power and speed (both able to OHKO common offensive mons), forcing my opponent to keep on the defensive and repeatedly bring in their Fur Coaters.
Sapblocking is most often achieved with an ability like Magic Bounce or Liquid Ooze, but I wanted my sapblocker to have Magic Guard, to be able to shrug off partial trapping moves and Mortal Spin without needing a Covert Cloak. As such, I went with Blissey for its ability to take any of the special hits the common Fur Coaters dish out and natural sapblocking with its pitiful Attack stat.
With Blissey as the one member of the defensive core imposed by the team concept, I looked at all the things Blissey could and couldn't do.
Blissey can:
- Check special attackers
- Sapblock against special attacking FC users
What can Blissey not do?
- Improof Ash-Greninja
- Improof Kartana
- Check physical attackers
- Check mixed attackers
Generally the pillar of your defensive core is going to be an Arceus forme, although this obviously isn't mandatory as teams with offensive Arceus exist. I chose Arceus-Poison as my Fur Coater because it can help against Mega Diancie. You can't really have a FC or Scales mon that can check all the mixed breakers, so generally my goal is to ensure that the overlap of my multiple FurScales users can handle them.
Arceus Poison does check most physical attackers and improofs both of my breakers, however it has the following vulnerabilities.
- Ground-Type physical attackers
- Mixed Mewtwo-Mega-X and SNR Arceus-Ghost
- Sapblocking
As such, I needed to figure out how to pick something that could handle all of those. Fur Coat Mega Audino is the best I could do there. It isn't perfect as it struggles against Steel coverage mixed MMX, but I figured it was ok given both my breakers scare out MMX and I have Imposter to soft-check it in the short term. It also helps against Yveltal, the only common FC sap user that Blissey wasn't consistent against (it could handle Revelation Dance sets but not Knock Off sets).
Since I wasn't able to easily fit removal here, I decided to go with Court Change on Blissey. Court Change bypasses the usual struggles of playing the hazard game but has trouble with Imposter coming in and spamming Court Change itself. Blissey is a fun user because it has poor defense and so, with Teleport, bringing Imposter in against it is quite the gamble, given bringing in Kartana forces it right back out and lets me make progress.
So once I had this core, I ran down the checklist of offensive threats to ensure I wasn't missing anything.
Here's a list of all the threats to account (very much subject to change as the meta evolves)
Mixed (Magic Guard)
runs HJK + Lumina Crash with 2 coverage moves commonly chosen between Gigaton, Astral, Fleur Cannon, EDrift, Steel Beam, Chloroblast (Pixilate) (Simple No Retreat) (physical fire + special ghost)
Physical or Shift Gear (Magic Guard)
Special (Refrigerate) (Mold Breaker)
runs Torch Song + stabs or can use Final Gambit (Simple No Retreat) watch out for Final Gambit (Beads of Ruin or Electric Surge) (Fur Coat / Other defensive ability) Take Heart or Nasty Plot
Ghost is the primary threat but Poison Fairy Water and others can run Take Heart sets and be threatening. (Speed Boost Nasty Plot)
Niche (Rare enough that not accounting for them is fine but you really should if you can) (various, primarily psysurge + 3 coverage LO) (mixed Tough Claws / Sniper) (MGLO) (Pixilate) (MG or specs adapt/beads)
In my case, I found that I was still pretty weak against some Deoxys sets and some MMX variants, but I figured since I had fast breakers and the surprise Scarf on Kartana, I'd be able to account for them. However this is absolutely a weakness, my team isn't perfect by any means, but hopefully the mentality behind how I build it can be of use to those struggling to make their teams work.
The problem I see with stuff like MARI cores.
My main issue with this is that it acts as a sort of trap for intermediate players that prevents them from really improving. Yes, you can absolutely plug two offensive guys into a FC Mirai / Scales Fairyceus / Regen MLix / Imp core and get to 1600 on ladder. However this develops bad habits that lead to people not really considering how the entirety of their team fits together. (Not to mention that the specific core I mentioned is dead weak to the physical dragons).
I think that you really can't define a good defensive core in a vacuum. It really depends on the team it's supporting. Maybe the mons can stay similar but especially the movesets will massively depend on what utility you need, how you're gonna play the hazard game, etc. A team that relies on Kart + MMX can choose to maybe trade rocks with Imp on their regenvest and not worry too much about removal in a way that a team with Blacephalon just can't.
You also have to consider that some offensive mons add defensive value to a team in a way that lets you soften up the defensive core. Moldy Etern or MG Ho-oh are great examples able to check quite a few threats that you now no longer need to account for with your furscales. The Importance of sapblocking will wildly vary depending on the team. Some teams need to get their breakers in as much as possible while others can step back and focus on the hazard / chip game until the breaker can get in and clean.
TLDR you really can't view your team as Offensive core + Defensive core and so long as the latter improofs the former it's all fine. Different offensive playstyles open up different needs for defense. There isn't one correct or easy way to build and looking to "solve" the meta isn't going to help you improve as a player.
What can we do to make building easier and more flexible?
Ban Lumina Crash. MMX is way too hard to account for with how freely it can pick its counters.
After that, I'm not sure, the problem is there's a ton of threats that put pressure in the builder, but nothing is really individually banworthy.
Losing a ton of utility moves makes it a lot harder for defensive mons to fit what they need without becoming passive or vulnerable to Imposter.
8 PP healing also just sucks but there's nothing we can do about that. DLC give us spectral and zygod moves please please please...
I've been seeing a lot of people in the OM discord server struggling with building competent defensive cores in the current meta. Many of them are resorting to a very limited supply of "proven" archetypes that they can just plug in to any team alongside their offensive mons and Imposter. A great example of that is the above post about the "MARI" core of Miraidon, Arceus, Regenvest, Imposter.
In this post I'm gonna talk about how I go about building defensive cores, the flaws I see in the commonly spread around defensive cores like MARI, why building defensive cores feels so rough nowadays and what can be done about it from a tiering perspective.
What exactly is a defensive core and what does it need to do?
A defensive core is a group of 2-4 mons that serve the purpose of taking hits from opposing breakers and forcing said breakers out by threatening damage, status, pivoting into your own offensive threats or any other effect that they can't allow themselves to take.
This post is geared towards the most common type of Balanced Hackmons team, Balance / Semi-Stall. Stall teams also have primary defensive cores alongside support or specialised mons, but that isn't the subject here.
On balance teams, the defensive core is tasked with checking every possible offensive threat, which is obviously impossible in a tier with as much freedom in building, however a good defensive core will be able to check as many of these as possible, while also minimising the one-sidedness of poor matchups (in other words, even if you can't wall something, you should be able to play around it with good predictions).
However, if you limit your defensive core to only this role, you'll find opposing teams quickly wearing you down while never giving you a chance to strike back. Defensive cores must not only be able to hold off threats, but generate momentum back to allow your offensive mons to make progress against the opponent.
This is more important than ever in the current meta compared to previous generations of Balanced Hackmons due to the PP reduction of healing moves. Now it is easier than ever for your 8 recovers to get drained by a persistent offense. This has led to many teams resorting to Strength Sap for its increased healing and pp as well as its ability to role compress as setup counterplay against some single-stage physical boosters. However the prevalence of Sap-blocking techniques like Magic Bounce, Liquid Ooze or simply mons with extremely low attack like Chansey makes it a struggle for Sap users to stay afloat over long games, meaning in any case it is important that defensive cores not just sit around doing nothing while their hp pool is drained.
Additionally, the movepools of defensive mons are even more strained than they would otherwise be by the presence of Imposter. Imposter is able to act as a soft-check to a majority of breakers and as such most teams seek to wear it down with damage and status. However when a defensive mon is brought in, that's an opportunity for Imposter to heal up and potentially even cure its status effects. Common counterplay like trapping moves are worse than ever with the only choices being the passive Mean Look or the inconsistent (due to covert cloak) and still weak Spirit Shackle.
Defensive cores are also often tasked with including pivoting, hazard setting and removal, status control and countering opposing defense with stuff like Magic Bounce. All in all that's a lot of roles to compress into very few mons.
In summary a defensive core is given the impossible task of
- Checking the myriad offensive threats in the tier
- Threatening them back hard enough to prevent them from spamming attacks and pp stalling your healing
- Not getting sapblocked if it uses sap (which is often mandatory with the power of physical breakers and accessibility of Victory Dance)
- Setting Hazards (not mandatory and offensive mons can help here)
- Removing Hazards
- All of the above while not allowing Imposter to benefit from copying them
If this was possible in only ~3 slots + Imposter, there would be no reason for stall teams to exist, you just can't do it.
The skill in building a defensive core comes from finding where exactly you can compromise depending on what your offensive mons can do.
My method for making defensive cores.
I, and I feel like this is the case for most BH players, generally build my teams around the offensive mons first, with the defensive core serving to complement them. You can build your defensive core first, there's absolutely no problem with that and I've done it myself a couple times, but this methodology is best when you already have an idea of how your progress will be made, you just need to figure out how to survive long enough to make that progress.
I'll be using this team I used against RoFnA for the first match of our BH money tour set as my example of the building process.
Most teams require at least one "unusual" defensive pick, most often for improofing an unconventional breaker. However in my case the concept for the team involved one of the defensive mons. I wanted to use Choice Band Ash-Greninja as a physical breaker due to its high speed and ability to OHKO most common regenvests, meaning that the answer to it will have to be a Fur Coat user, unable to recover and pivot on the same turn and most relying on Strength Sap to heal.
As such, my first question and probably the most valuable question when building your defensive core isn't "how do I wall xyz?". The question is: When my breaker gets walled, what am I going to switch in and how am I going to avoid losing my momentum?
On a lot of teams, this is the role of the regenvest user. Regenvests are naturally good at saving turns since they don't need to spend any to heal up and they have enough free moveslots to carry pivoting moves to allow them to switch in a frailer mon safely after the opponent has already moved. Regenvests are quite good when paired with highly powerful breakers, but can fall short when you need to slowly chip down Imposter or you need to sapblock the opposing physical wall, since few good regenvests have low enough attack to sapblock and struggle to avoid giving Imposter free health and a 50/50 chance to gain momentum whenever they come in. Not to mention even if you underspeed Imposter, if they didn't click pivot as well, few breakers are able to deal with a copied regenvest, lacking the power to OHKO it or the resistance to its utility moves. As such, regenvests are not a good fit for every team.
On this team, my goal was to block Strength Sap from Fur Coat Arceus, Miraidon and Yveltal while getting my fast physical breakers in Greninja and Kartana in as often as possible to force switches with their high power and speed (both able to OHKO common offensive mons), forcing my opponent to keep on the defensive and repeatedly bring in their Fur Coaters.
Sapblocking is most often achieved with an ability like Magic Bounce or Liquid Ooze, but I wanted my sapblocker to have Magic Guard, to be able to shrug off partial trapping moves and Mortal Spin without needing a Covert Cloak. As such, I went with Blissey for its ability to take any of the special hits the common Fur Coaters dish out and natural sapblocking with its pitiful Attack stat.
With Blissey as the one member of the defensive core imposed by the team concept, I looked at all the things Blissey could and couldn't do.
Blissey can:
- Check special attackers
- Sapblock against special attacking FC users
What can Blissey not do?
- Improof Ash-Greninja
- Improof Kartana
- Check physical attackers
- Check mixed attackers
Generally the pillar of your defensive core is going to be an Arceus forme, although this obviously isn't mandatory as teams with offensive Arceus exist. I chose Arceus-Poison as my Fur Coater because it can help against Mega Diancie. You can't really have a FC or Scales mon that can check all the mixed breakers, so generally my goal is to ensure that the overlap of my multiple FurScales users can handle them.
Arceus Poison does check most physical attackers and improofs both of my breakers, however it has the following vulnerabilities.
- Ground-Type physical attackers
- Mixed Mewtwo-Mega-X and SNR Arceus-Ghost
- Sapblocking
As such, I needed to figure out how to pick something that could handle all of those. Fur Coat Mega Audino is the best I could do there. It isn't perfect as it struggles against Steel coverage mixed MMX, but I figured it was ok given both my breakers scare out MMX and I have Imposter to soft-check it in the short term. It also helps against Yveltal, the only common FC sap user that Blissey wasn't consistent against (it could handle Revelation Dance sets but not Knock Off sets).
Since I wasn't able to easily fit removal here, I decided to go with Court Change on Blissey. Court Change bypasses the usual struggles of playing the hazard game but has trouble with Imposter coming in and spamming Court Change itself. Blissey is a fun user because it has poor defense and so, with Teleport, bringing Imposter in against it is quite the gamble, given bringing in Kartana forces it right back out and lets me make progress.
So once I had this core, I ran down the checklist of offensive threats to ensure I wasn't missing anything.
Here's a list of all the threats to account (very much subject to change as the meta evolves)
Mixed (Magic Guard)
runs HJK + Lumina Crash with 2 coverage moves commonly chosen between Gigaton, Astral, Fleur Cannon, EDrift, Steel Beam, Chloroblast (Pixilate) (Simple No Retreat) (physical fire + special ghost)
Physical or Shift Gear (Magic Guard)
Special (Refrigerate) (Mold Breaker)
runs Torch Song + stabs or can use Final Gambit (Simple No Retreat) watch out for Final Gambit (Beads of Ruin or Electric Surge) (Fur Coat / Other defensive ability) Take Heart or Nasty Plot
Ghost is the primary threat but Poison Fairy Water and others can run Take Heart sets and be threatening. (Speed Boost Nasty Plot)
Niche (Rare enough that not accounting for them is fine but you really should if you can) (various, primarily psysurge + 3 coverage LO) (mixed Tough Claws / Sniper) (MGLO) (Pixilate) (MG or specs adapt/beads)
In my case, I found that I was still pretty weak against some Deoxys sets and some MMX variants, but I figured since I had fast breakers and the surprise Scarf on Kartana, I'd be able to account for them. However this is absolutely a weakness, my team isn't perfect by any means, but hopefully the mentality behind how I build it can be of use to those struggling to make their teams work.
The problem I see with stuff like MARI cores.
My main issue with this is that it acts as a sort of trap for intermediate players that prevents them from really improving. Yes, you can absolutely plug two offensive guys into a FC Mirai / Scales Fairyceus / Regen MLix / Imp core and get to 1600 on ladder. However this develops bad habits that lead to people not really considering how the entirety of their team fits together. (Not to mention that the specific core I mentioned is dead weak to the physical dragons).
I think that you really can't define a good defensive core in a vacuum. It really depends on the team it's supporting. Maybe the mons can stay similar but especially the movesets will massively depend on what utility you need, how you're gonna play the hazard game, etc. A team that relies on Kart + MMX can choose to maybe trade rocks with Imp on their regenvest and not worry too much about removal in a way that a team with Blacephalon just can't.
You also have to consider that some offensive mons add defensive value to a team in a way that lets you soften up the defensive core. Moldy Etern or MG Ho-oh are great examples able to check quite a few threats that you now no longer need to account for with your furscales. The Importance of sapblocking will wildly vary depending on the team. Some teams need to get their breakers in as much as possible while others can step back and focus on the hazard / chip game until the breaker can get in and clean.
TLDR you really can't view your team as Offensive core + Defensive core and so long as the latter improofs the former it's all fine. Different offensive playstyles open up different needs for defense. There isn't one correct or easy way to build and looking to "solve" the meta isn't going to help you improve as a player.
What can we do to make building easier and more flexible?
Ban Lumina Crash. MMX is way too hard to account for with how freely it can pick its counters.
After that, I'm not sure, the problem is there's a ton of threats that put pressure in the builder, but nothing is really individually banworthy.
Losing a ton of utility moves makes it a lot harder for defensive mons to fit what they need without becoming passive or vulnerable to Imposter.
8 PP healing also just sucks but there's nothing we can do about that. DLC give us spectral and zygod moves please please please...
I KNEW it was Sniper Greninja what you used. My habilities on reverse engineering were indeed on point, though it was exhausting to guess. That being said I'm more worried about Stone Axe giving defensive teams too much freedom and punishing everyone for using covert cloak.
I'm seeing 2 solutions here: Either your proposal of banning Lumina Crash, or my proposal of banning Stone axe, both so it's harder to chip defensive cores while enabling Semistall to work. I honestly prefer Stone Axe because atm defense is the OP style, not offense, specially after the ban of Fillet away due to cheesy sweeps.
Like the protagonist of the game I'm beating atm would say... OBJECTION!
First of all, I do confess I was indeed one of the two who mentioned Imposter during the questioning of "Is there anything else tiering-wise that you think should be looked at?" (If I had to guess the other one is Geneku).
That being said, Tea Guzzler, I remember mentioning IMPOSTER CHANSEY in specific, not imposter the hability which is a different subject; more over, I specifically said "(not imposter as a whole)". Why? Because I think she is indeed part of this restrictive teambuilding due to being overly effective at checking opponents with eviolite and she being kinda forced to use eviolite over other more creative items, while also having too predictable of a counterplay compared to Blissey.
I know why Imposter exists, because of setup sweepers can be problematic, but that doesn't mean CHANSEY should never be taken as an issue..!
Sorry, I have been playing Ace attorney trilogy the last 3 weeks, something of that Wright energy got into me. Still, this should be A CHANSEY mention and a Imposter one, not 2 imposter ones... Unless it was never mine the suggestion here.
Big Imposter is the sword for the weak. Big Imposter is the shield for the fragile. Big Imposter is the food for the starved. Big Imposter is the water for the parched. https://pokepast.es/5e4368e094766472.
hi, just a short notice to day that samples have been updated. they're never technically closed, so if you think a team should be a sample you can just put it here anytime and we'll still discuss it.
also why do we only have one balance sample what the fuck happened lmao
apologies for the double post, but wanted to announce something regarding lumina crash / mmx. we're considering a vote and will likely have some votes by monday as to not disrupt the next round of money tour, but one of the outcomes has a caveat:
provided that we vote ban on lumina crash, regarding tiering policy, we'd sort of be under the obligation to retest mmy - both crash and protean would have been axed, meaning arguably its most impactful tool and one of the best for brute-forcing stuff are absent. this fits with what we did just before pre-full dex ended with banning hadron and freeing miraidon, and with what multiple other OMs have done in individual cases. if mmy were to be freed and re-banned (which is an option), the likelihood is that we take tiering action on mmx, either by quickban or suspect - we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
what would be your thoughts on the above? the status quo is that mmy gets freed (it won't end up being a suspect off the banlist should crash get banned given the uncertainty with dlc2), so if you don't want that to happen, speak up about it.
Can break through this team very easily.
switching into mortal spin is very threatening.
Steelix and ho oh can’t handle steam eruption, miraidon can’t handle dragon energy.
(Simple No Retreat)
(Refrigerate) 
(Mold Breaker)
(Simple No Retreat) watch out for Final Gambit
(various, primarily psysurge + 3 coverage LO)
(mixed Tough Claws / Sniper)
(MGLO)
(Pixilate) 
(MG or specs adapt/beads)