QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Title says it all. I'll probably post some later, but for now, interested to hear some others.
Not trying to dunk on your take or anything, but I'm curious as to why you think this? I felt that Alola pretty tastefully implemented Kanto and Johto into the region, seeing as Hawaii has historically interacted with Japan quite a lot and has a pretty sizable Japanese population. Things like the protagonist being a Kantonian immigrant, Red and Blue hanging out on vacation, the Kantonian Gym, etc. all feel like natural consequences of the regions' proximity to one another. Crucially, Alola has homages to both Kanto and Johto, which makes sense the two have always been very closely knit. Malie City and Garden in particular has its origins in Johto settlers, which is pretty neat! I think the most egregious Gen 1 reference I can think of is, like... Diglett's Tunnel, which has a different layout but is otherwise too conceptually similar to Diglett's Cave for my tastes. It is true that Gen 1 'mons are the only non-Gen 7 'mons to receive exclusive Z-moves, but it's a much more limited selection of Gen 1 'mons - 5 Gen 1 'mons get Z-moves (counting the two Pikachus independently, and not counting A!Raichu), while 11 Alolan 'mons (counting the Tapus as one since they all get one move, and counting A!Raichu as a Gen 7 mon) get them.Back when X/Y were new, a common complaint about them was that they had way too much fan pandering to Gen 1. I sheepishly just went along with it, but when I thought back on it later, I realized that it wasn't that bad. It was there, but it didn't bother me, and it was nowhere near as bad as in Gen 7, which is much worse in my opinion (and no, I don't think the 20th anniversary was a good excuse).
This. The problem is more of the viability of the Pokémon rather than the availability of the Pokémon. My only real nitpick is why Bruno still has an Onix even though a Gym Leader (Jasmine) uses a Steelix. His two Onix in FRLG are even evolved in the postgame rematch, so what the heck happened here? Did one of them de-evolve over the span of three years or something?Kind of came to this realization a while ago, but....I think we all overstate the problem of Johto Pokemon not being used by leaders, or notable trainers in general, in the Johto games
Of the 8 Johto leaders, half of them use Johto Pokemon and they're even their ace.
All 4 members of the E4 use Johto Pokemon
5 of the Kanto leaders use Johto Pokemon
Like, the Johto leader rosters could tsill be better don't get me wrong. There's really not a reason Misdreavus couldn't have been on Morty's team is the primary one that everyone brings up, Bugsy could have swapped the cocoons out, not to mention Chuck having 2 Pokemon is ridiculous, discussion of levels goes back to GSC's level curve problems....
But the way we as a community talk about it, you would think that we had Miltank & Kingdra and that's it.
Oh dear, stupid me, what have I done? Why did I have to mention the fan pandering? I should have stuck with just mentioning Team Rocket/Mewtwo and the Fire starters in my previous post, since that was my original plan. Instead, I came up with more things, including the fan pandering stuff. This wasn’t how I had planned to spend this Sunday morning… and noon, since this post took forever to write. I had so many other things I wanted to do today… but this had to be done, and I decided to do it ASAP just to get it out of the way. If I didn’t do it, I wouldn’t be able to concentrate on other things. But just to make this clear, I’m not putting any blame on you, my royal marine friend. I can only blame myself for getting into this stupid mess. I also want to apologize if any of this is poorly written, or if I don’t explain myself properly. This is what happens when I am forced to participate in a discussion I had no intention of starting.Not trying to dunk on your take or anything, but I'm curious as to why you think this? I felt that Alola pretty tastefully implemented Kanto and Johto into the region, seeing as Hawaii has historically interacted with Japan quite a lot and has a pretty sizable Japanese population. Things like the protagonist being a Kantonian immigrant, Red and Blue hanging out on vacation, the Kantonian Gym, etc. all feel like natural consequences of the regions' proximity to one another. Crucially, Alola has homages to both Kanto and Johto, which makes sense the two have always been very closely knit. Malie City and Garden in particular has its origins in Johto settlers, which is pretty neat! I think the most egregious Gen 1 reference I can think of is, like... Diglett's Tunnel, which has a different layout but is otherwise too conceptually similar to Diglett's Cave for my tastes. It is true that Gen 1 'mons are the only non-Gen 7 'mons to receive exclusive Z-moves, but it's a much more limited selection of Gen 1 'mons - 5 Gen 1 'mons get Z-moves (counting the two Pikachus independently, and not counting A!Raichu), while 11 Alolan 'mons (counting the Tapus as one since they all get one move, and counting A!Raichu as a Gen 7 mon) get them.
By contrast, X and Y's implementation of Gen 1 stuff felt very... corporate, if that makes sense? France does have a high rate of Japanese tourism so I don't want to dismiss any reference entirely, but ti felt like things were slotted in for the sake of pandering more than out of consideration for the world. Viridian Forest is copied tile-for-tile in the Santalune Forest for no discernible reason, the sleeping Snorlax and Poke Flute segment is repeated pretty early into the game, fan-favorites Charizard and Mewtwo received not just one, but two Mega Evolutions, Sycamore giving you a Kanto starter... speaking of Megas, no Gen 6 Pokemon except for Diancie get a Mega (and, in a cruel twist of fate, it's only available in ORAS), while 10 Gen 1 Pokemon get Megas in X and Y (and the number jumps up to 13 in ORAS). It makes Gen 6 Pokemon feel outshined in their own debut generation, which is pretty backwards to me.
Of course, I acknowledge that what feels 'natural' or not is very highly subjective, and that I'm also somewhat biased since I adore Alola, and Gen 7 as a whole. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Alola's fanservice here, if you're interested in talking more about it. I'll also add that, outside of the Gen 1 fanservice, I've been replaying X lately for the 10 year anniversary and I'm very pleasantly surprised by how much I still like it - the fanservice is glaring enough to me that it still takes me out of things a bit, but god Kalos is such a pretty region. 10 years is officially the threshold where you can safely be nostalgic for it without feeling ridiculous, right
On the whole, I felt that the Alola games were a lot much more "in your face" with their fan pandering,
That's fair, and you make some interesting points. I never thought of the relation between Blue and Red that way, and I still don't, but that's a new way (for me) to look at it. In addition, I didn't know that it was impossible to have 40 species registered in your dex at that point during the game. Thanks for sharing!Suspicious Derivative I meant to quote a single line from your post but it's long and I'm on mobile so bear with me when I don't:
>It is just Blue and Silver that suck because they are so poorly written in their games.
BIG BIG BIG disagree here and normally I wouldn't have bothered to bring it up... EXCEPT that my disagreement specifically fits the thread title/concept of "things you've changed your mind on", so it's a perfect place to discuss it.
As a kid, I thought Blue / Gary (since as a kid you really do see them as the same character if you watch the anime and play the game) was a jerk rival, like many others. I got older and read some different takes on it and replayed the games and a few things changed for me.
Basically, I interpret Blue to be wearing a big grin on his face with everything he says and does, and Red to be smirking right back at him in response. Like, the way I read it, Blue isn't actually being mean to Red, but just kind of making smarmy remarks because he knows Red can take it, and because he knows it will help motivate Red to move be the best trainer possible. I read their relationship as being quite friendly in spite of the game trying to say how much they are "rivals", and that this is just the way Blue talks and acts - cocky and arrogant - but in reality it's kind of a persona that's directed toward Red.
I learned just the other day that his quip of "I already caught 40 kinds" on the S.S. Anne is actually impossible if he is playing the same game as the player, because the most you can have at that stage is 38. Either he was lying or he is playing a different game, but either way, 99% of players aren't going to have 40 when they get to him, so he's going to have more every time. Honestly? I think it was intentional. I think things like that and his party at Nugget Bridge having something you can't even encounter yet (Abra) are very, very deliberate and are meant to make *the player* see him as always being one step ahead, just like Red, and his taunts are a way of motivating you to catch up! Whether the player interprets this as jerk behavior or the friendly rivalry I now read it as is specific to the individual, of course, and I'm not going to say anyone's wrong for thinking he is a jerk, but this is an example of my own headcanon has changed over the years.
Also because I literally have been talking about Blue in particular with a friend the last few days and this is a PERFECT chance to spill my opinion
I just explained myself on how I feel about all of these things you mentioned and why, but let's try to make it clear once more.-snip-
Did you watch that video too, because hoo-boy it annoyed me and I'm dying to write something about itI learned just the other day that his quip of "I already caught 40 kinds" on the S.S. Anne is actually impossible if he is playing the same game as the player, because the most you can have at that stage is 38. Either he was lying or he is playing a different game, but either way, 99% of players aren't going to have 40 when they get to him, so he's going to have more every time. Honestly? I think it was intentional. I think things like that and his party at Nugget Bridge having something you can't even encounter yet (Abra) are very, very deliberate and are meant to make *the player* see him as always being one step ahead, just like Red, and his taunts are a way of motivating you to catch up! Whether the player interprets this as jerk behavior or the friendly rivalry I now read it as is specific to the individual, of course, and I'm not going to say anyone's wrong for thinking he is a jerk, but this is an example of my own headcanon has changed over the years.
This is the point. If you take a look at my post, I said:
- Zooming out, the wider point is that Blue is always ahead of us. So there's every chance he didn't encounter the same roadblocks we did. He might have: gotten to Saffron City before the guards closed the gates or gotten through Mt Moon before the Super Nerd blocked the path. Hell, he might have been to the Safari Zone and back before the Snorlax came and blocked the road south of Lavender Town (how else does he have an Exeggcute in the Pokemon Tower battle?)
I say 99% because I'm accounting for the people who trade before the S.S. Anne. You can obviously get a lot more than just version exclusives just by trading with your friend who already beat the game, and I have no way of knowing how many people did that kind of thing back in the day, but I would guess the majority of players a) both didn't do a whole lot of trading during the game's story, and b) weren't evolving every Pokémon they captured (in part because they may not have known how, for the Moon Stone guys, and in part because I doubt the player has a level 36 starter and Pidgeot by that time). So it's my view that in the vast majority of cases the player wouldn't have 40 Pokémon and therefore Blue would be a step ahead, but a very plausible step because a new player with 21 entries registered in their Pokédex would probably see 40 as a plausible target to beat considering they would have already seen Pokémon from areas the player can't even access yet (Onix, Machop, Poliwag, Staryu, Starmie) and might not know that they actually were unobtainable at that stage. A young player with 21 entries in their dex could probably reasonably do some quick math to arrive at 40 as being a possibility, but one they failed out, whereas if the game told you Blue caught 120 entries I think the Pokédex 'battle' would have been over before it started. Whether or not 40 was even intended to be literal, I think the point of noting the 38 species trivia is (or at least should be, like I said I didn't watch the video) to point out that choosing the exact number 40 deliberately, if indeed it was done deliberately, has the effect of making it seem like's he one step ahead. It's is the character building that makes him appear that way: of course in 2023 we all know he is the Champion so he can't not be one step ahead of you, but back in a player's first run, you had to get that across to the player somehow!Either he was lying or he is playing a different game, but either way, 99% of players aren't going to have 40 when they get to him, so he's going to have more every time.
Sure, I just had to get all that off my chest (...keyboard? whatever) because it bugged me for being such a flawed premise.I mean the video was pretty clearly tongue in cheek anyway
Every time Mew gets cloned, it always seems to result into a Mewtwo, so maybe this happens anytime experiments are done on a Mew, whether it's in Kanto, Unova, or Kalos.mewtwo
I mean the video was pretty clearly tongue in cheek anyway
Any video about an obscure and unlikely minor topic gets a thumbs up from me for novelty alone. (See also: the construction site in Vermilion City)Sure, I just had to get all that off my chest (...keyboard? whatever) because it bugged me for being such a flawed premise.
About Giovanni and Mewtwo, I thought him getting a Legendary Pokémon was out-of-character because "Team Rocket was a grounded organization that seeks profit, not world domination!"I used to believe that Team Rocket were responsible for the creation of Mewtwo in the games, because that's the case in the Anime and Pokémon Adventures. But after looking a little closer, there's absolutely nothing in the games that connects Team Rocket and the creation of Mewtwo, so I don't consider that canon for the games.
I mean, Marowak3 & Kangaskhan existed at the same time. If anything that should have further cinched it for you; they're unrelated.
As for me, I used to be a big denier of the "Kangaskhan was Cubone's mom" theory. Even if Cubone kinda looks like Kangaskhan's baby, I very much believed they are completely unrelated species, and that Kangaskhan was just an endangered species (hence why it's a rare catch in the Safari Zone only).
This lasted until a certain leak that showed a Marowak carrying a baby on its pouch. And even then, my initial reaction was denial.
I liked it when someone changed my mind about gen 1's A story and main antagonist is actually the gym leaders and Rival respectively and the Team Rocket stuff is kind of a side B plot that just kinda happens to the player. Makes me enjoy the gen 1 game's story a lot morePokémon villains and antagonists suck across the board. Like, aside from a few select names from a couple spin-offs, they're really, really bad. This wouldn't bother me enough to post about it if there weren't several other games out there that can make a memorable villain or antagonist in a franchise designed for children. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought about this before, but the ones we are given have only come across as some combination of lazy and cliché the older I've gotten. As a matter of fact, let's go down the list, shall we?
- Giovanni in his Kanto iterations is just some generic mafia boss who's okay enough as a classic villain, I guess, but the lack of direct threat he imposes towards the player leaves a lot to be desired for his role as an actual antagonist and not just a villain, an issue we'll see again in most regions. In the Johto games he doesn't even show up (HGSS Celebi event not withstanding) which makes sense from a story perspective, but what this unfortunately does is leave us with the infamously underwhelming Executives in his place instead.
- Maxie and Archie are honestly just diehard environmentalists turned bitter rivals who, while unique on their own, started the trend of "major bad guy wants Legendary Pokémon because mwahahaha I'm evil I guess". For the early to mid-2000s this is fine as a one-and-done situation, especially given how Gen 3 was supposed to be the original reboot generation, but neither of the two have aged particularly well as individual characters and are only at their best when both are around at the same time.
- Speaking of "major bad guy wants Legendary Pokémon", Cyrus is literally just one of either Maxie or Archie (more so Maxie imo) but if you replace the land vs. sea theme with Team Galactic's space theme. I don't care if Platinum gave his character a bit more depth, because you can just as easily make an argument that his character could have been fleshed out as early as Diamond & Pearl since the developers only had to account for one evil team and not two this time. (Also, give me one good reason he has a Crobat aside from the fact that Maxie and Archie also have one. You can't even make the same argument as Silver's Golbat evolving in the Johto storyline.)
- Oh my gosh, where do I ever begin with Ghetsis? This guy was so, so close to being the first main series villain who actually had some originality to both his character design and his team's plan. That is... until you beat N during the ending of the first Unova games and his actual, far less original plans of ruling the world are revealed. Black 2 & White 2 were the final nails in his Cofagrigus, though, as his plans become even more cliché than they already were by jRPG standards and his team is somewhat awkwardly not only weaker than in the first games, but... the same levels as Colress's team that you literally just battled. Hey, at least he's dressed in all black now to go along with rest of jRPG unoriginality.
- Lysandre literally couldn't be the more obvious head of Team Flare no matter which way you put it. The audience knowing things isn't the problem, though, so much as how oblivious the entire rest of the Kalos region is to the idea that an already sketchy individual who just happens to own his own company could possibly be affiliated with a group like Team Flare who just happens to want the exact same things he wants. Unfortunately, not even the sheer stupidity of the Kalos population can save Team Flare from being the fourth iteration in 11 years of "major bad guy wants Legendary Pokémon" cliché. Oh, I'm sorry, fifth iteration. I forgot Team Plasma got two games.
- Much like how Maxie & Archie started a trend, Guzma and Team Skull (nice job stealing from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon and not giving credit, by the way) started a trend of "hey, we're not the actual bad guys, we're just setting the stage for a twist villain later! Oh wow..." yeah, no, anyone who's watched a Disney movie in the past, like, eight years can tell you that red herrings are lazy writing at this point. Much like Team Rocket, they're also not really a direct threat to the player specifically, only really being a problem when the player provokes them and not the other way around.
- Lusamine and her Aether Foundation. Let's see... wants to secretly use a Legendary Pokémon for her own benefit? Check. Leader of a highly recognized and loved company in the region? Check. Hates her children? Check. Loses most of her appeal in a follow-up game? Check. Gee, where I have I seen this character before?
- Team Rainbow Rocket and its iteration of Giovanni are literally just fanservice and possibly an unoriginal nod to the populat multiverse trend in pop culture seen in things like the MCU. Next.
- Team Yell is literally just a toxic fanbase, and while I think it's a very funny, if unintentional meta joke about the state of the Pokémon fandom, that changes nothing about the fact that they're functionally just Team Skull 2.0 in all but name and Pokémon type theming. At least Piers finally gave us a Dark-Type Gym Leader, but that's more an issue with the Dark-Type over 20 years since Generation 2 and less of a compliment.
- Chairman Rose is pretty much just a combination of Lysandre and Lusamine, only this time he's a politician also, because wow, a politician being a bad guy? Who would have seen that coming? Also, you see less of Macro Cosmos as an "evil team" more than... pretty much any team in the entire series, even less than that one story segment at the Aether Foundation since the majority of the spotlight gets stolen by- you guessed it- another freaking Legendary.
- Team Star... alright, now we're literally running out of ideas. Cool, the main hub of this game is a school. Cool, the school bullies are a bad group of people. Can you detect the sarcasm in my voice yet I'm having so much fun writing this post oh boooooyyyyy- oh also, Penny is the third instance in a row of "plot relevant female side character has affiliations with the joke evil team". Because we have to make Team Star super relatable, right? RIght?? Yeah, uh, no. People usually play video games to get away from bullying, not to be reminded of it.
- Volo... oh, good heavens, Volo. Hmm. Your whole legacy as a a "villain" arried by Giratina and your blatant inspiration by a popular Champion. And you're a terrible twist villain on top of that? I don't care if "Evil Cynthia" was obviously going to be a popular character. That doesn't make it any less lazy of a concept.
- Professor Sada and Professor Turo don't lead their own team for once, but that's about where the clichés end. They're like Maxie and Archie but if you only had one of them so they lost their rivalry dynamic, they also abandoned their child just like three other team leaders did before them, and you replace the land vs. sea theme with past vs. future.
Her benefit isn't really the same as the rest. The Legendary Pokemon basically abducted her husband. She wants to get her husband back and associates UB-01 with her family. There is no "benefits" outside of sentimental ones.Lusamine and her Aether Foundation. Let's see... wants to secretly use a Legendary Pokémon for her own benefit
This isn't a bad thing anyways.Leader of a highly recognized and loved company in the region?
This isn't really in full context, there's an actual timeline because Lusamine is an actual character where things change at different times in the story. Which unlike the other villains with shit regarding kids, isn't the case.Hates her children? Check.
Where an entirely different, much smaller team of developers rewrote her and basically removed the climax of Lusamine and Lillie's arc? All because corporate didn't want to keep a conventionally attractive character as irredeemable when they wanted to put her in things like Pokemon Masters? Damn, that's really a flaw in her writing! We gotta ignore the original which had 20x more devs, was worked on for three years, and was... the original.most of her appeal in a follow-up game? Check.
You haven't.Gee, where I have I seen this character before?
Hmm. Touché. At first, I was reading this thinking you were trying to... for lack of a better word, "get upset with me", but then I actually turned my brain on for more than five seconds and realized you were just trying to help me understand why these characters are well-written and even pretty unique. I still think some of my points do stand, namely the idea that Pokémon loves to make the leaders of recognized companies a "twist villain" at some point, but that's not really a character design flaw aimed at Lusamine and her family specifically. All I know for certain is that it's been a very long time since I've played one of the Alola games (In fact, I think that's the region I've played least recently) so it's very possible I just forgot about a lot of this, but either way I still want to respect and value these opinions on my own opinions if that makes sense.Her benefit isn't really the same as the rest. The Legendary Pokemon basically abducted her husband. She wants to get her husband back and associates UB-01 with her family. There is no "benefits" outside of sentimental ones.
Which is better writing. Better writing is character writing.
This isn't a bad thing anyways.
This isn't really in full context, there's an actual timeline because Lusamine is an actual character where things change at different times in the story. Which unlike the other villains with shit regarding kids, isn't the case.
Plus, this isn't really "cliche" or bad writing. You're just writing traits in a flashy order to make a character sound, what, generic?
Where an entirely different, much smaller team of developers rewrote her and basically removed the climax of Lusamine and Lillie's arc? All because corporate didn't want to keep a conventionally attractive character as irredeemable when they wanted to put her in things like Pokemon Masters? Damn, that's really a flaw in her writing! We gotta ignore the original which had 20x more devs, was worked on for three years, and was... the original.
You haven't.
Not only did you misunderstand Lusamine's character but you brought it down to the base traits and didn't realize what made Sun and Moon well-written in the first place: It's a story about characters. The Pokemon serve the plot and characters, not the other way around.
Ghetsis, Giovanni, whatever; Wow, they own a big organization! A criminal organization, and they were always criminals. Giovanni never was making some genuine effort to be a good person, he was always an evil mafioso bossman. Ghetsis was a manipulator from the start, and found an orphan to manipulate him and try to become ruler of Unova.
Lusamine's motivations are entirely personal, and about an actual decline. Team Aether was not always some evil, fucked up organization, Lusamine and her husband, Poke Pelago guy (Mohn) by the way, liked their jobs of helping Pokemon. Which is why Mohn still helps Pokemon even with amnesia when he ends up on a random island.
The event of losing her husband to a Nihilego Ultra Wormhole is what started the decline. Lusamine started to detest what her kids were becoming, became obsessed with finding Nihilego and that "beauty" (which is why Lillie is dressed like one), and yes, abused her children. Gladion leaves earlier as he cannot abide by her and her abuse of Type: Null, which he is aware of. Lillie with her abuse of Cosmog as well.
The game is basically about Lillie reclaiming her confidence and self-worth from an abusive mother, and a legendary Pokemon and the player helps push her forward. That's what makes Pokemon Sun and Moon well-written compared to the other games. Giovanni is a bad man from the start, if anything they try to slightly redeem him later (which wasn't a characterization from the sequel, they try in Pocket Monsters Red and Pocket Monsters Green), and Giovanni is just batshit insane.
Lusamine-Nihilego is the climax of Sun and Moon, and Lillie commands the evolved Nebby to attack in a cutscene. This is actually, in my opinion, the most earned ending to any climax in the entire series. She has grown as a character enough to be able to attack her abusive Mother and Monster hybrid.
Lusamine is not like any other antagonist before her, nor is she badly written, nor is she a bad or generic or cliche character. She's just good, and never take a shit on Sun and Moon's writing within a 500,000 mile radius of me ever again. Good night.
If it felt like I was doing that to save space in an already crammed post and as somewhat of an exaggeration to get my points across... you would be exactly right. I mainly wanted to illustrate the lack of originality with a lot of these guys more than anything, since with a franchise as big as Pokémon, it's not nearly as often as it could or should be that the envelope of what makes a "good antagonist/villain" is pushed in recent installments. To ant4456's credit, at least the Aether Foundation's "villainous phase" was primarily built around their family dynamic starting when Lusamine lost her husband.Yeah I think a few things have been oversimplified there to push your negative views on the subject..
I'm not mad at you per se, I was just a bit cranky and used your post as my soapbox to show others who may not know the deeper intricacies of Sun and Moon's writing, too. I wrote it at let's see... I posted it at around 4:42 AM here, took about 10-20 minutes to write, haha. Lusamine is a twist villain, but also Lillie does hint to it. She tends to shy away from her origin (explicitly, the game even calls attention to it), and implies her distaste of her clothes/style chosen by Lusamine very early on. I think it's done well, and Lillie clearly doesn't want to go to Aether Paradise. So there is something telling you that something is wrong, and in my opinion it's done fine enough.Hmm. Touché. At first, I was reading this thinking you were trying to... for lack of a better word, "get upset with me", but then I actually turned my brain on for more than five seconds and realized you were just trying to help me understand why these characters are well-written and even pretty unique. I still think some of my points do stand, namely the idea that Pokémon loves to make the leaders of recognized companies a "twist villain" at some point, but that's not really a character design flaw aimed at Lusamine and her family specifically. All I know for certain is that it's been a very long time since I've played one of the Alola games (In fact, I think that's the region I've played least recently) so it's very possible I just forgot about a lot of this, but either way I still want to respect and value these opinions on my own opinions if that makes sense.
Also, on the mention of Team Skull, I like Team Skull a lot. It's based on the concept of real world teen gangs, and I think it does a good job. While they are pushed as comedic relief, their struggle is something that can be found in real life commonly:While I loved Team Skull
While I get what you mean, I want to say that no, Sun and Moon isn't really a "legendary-focused plot", that's what makes Sun and Moon pretty unique in my opinion.legendary-focused plot