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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Would rather run tera flying or tera dark black glasses thank you
Ban Gholdengo. The meta will always be bad when the hazard dynamic is like this. Being able to consistently defog with Corv would 100% improve the meta overnight (to say nothing of easier spinning). It’s not the presence of any individual busted setup mon like Blood Moon that make the meta poor, it is the underlying core offense-hazard stack dynamic enabled by dexited movepools and Gholdengo.
query: why has god abandoned us?
The Tera Fairy in my back pocket:
You’ve either used tera blast on a physical attacker with choice band the entire time or nothing has changed about the situation except that you might start outdamaging the opponent…
…Which definitely a possibility since this is choice band Kingambit we are talking about, maybe choice band is a better idea than i thought?
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Amidst all the chatter about October's tier shifts, I'd like to highlight a mon that I was initially excited about and then immediately disappointed by-- Fezandipiti.
Looking at this mon's stat spread, one would think it'd be an excellent utility mon. Excellent Poison/Fairy typing, great bulk (88/82/125), an ability that spreads Toxic, and a solid speed stat of 99. But when you read through its movepool, you see that it has next to no utility moves and a whole swath of boosting and coverage options across both sides of the offensive spectrum. That'd be neat until you look at its base middling base 91 Attack and tragic base 70 Special Attack stats.
When the DLC first dropped, people were running pivot sets like this, leveraging its speed above Great Tusk and Baxcalibur to U-Turn around and spread status. It could at least threaten things weak to Fairy and generate some momentum.
However, it became apparent that this set, even with bulkier spreads, contributed very little to a team. It was entirely unable to force progress against Toxic-immune Pokémon, and instead became a U-turn bot. I really like this Pokémon though, and I felt like it had potential, so I kept brainstorming sets and builds that I thought might make it work.
I came up with this:
Bulky CM Fez is essentially Cresselia--a late-game bulky wincon--that trades Stored Power and some bulk for Speed, a better base typing, a stronger Moonblast, and the ability to contribute in the mid-game. With just max HP invesment, Fez can check or counter a unique range of threats: Dragapult, Greninja, Iron Valiant, Meowscarada, Rillaboom, Samurott-H, Walking Wake, Zamazenta, Zapdos. Slowking-Galar, another bulky poison type, covers some of these Pokémon, too, but Fez compresses its ability to force mons out in the mid-game with the potential to break or sweep late-game.
Fez's offensive calculations work out eerily perfect against Great Tusk, one of the premier answers to bulky Poisons. This spread gives it max HP, enough Speed for Offensive Tusk, and just enough Special Attack to OHKO max HP Tusk:
+1 100 SpA Fezandipiti Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And with Calm Mind, you are able to accumulate more Special Attack boosts than you would with Nasty Plot because you can set up on ridiculous things like Specs Dragapult, non-Psyshock Iron Valiant, SpA Booster Energy Walking Wake, and Spe Booster Iron Moth. Moonblast is seriously a ridiculous STAB move, especially paired with Toxic Chain. You're looking at a 95 BP/100 Acc/24 PP STAB move with a 30% chance to drop Special Attack and a 30% chance to Toxic.
Taunt is what pulls the whole moveset together. With Fez's pivot sets, it was unable to make progress vs. Steel or Poison types. With Taunt, though, it turns most of them into set-up fodder. Toxapex, Empoleon, Corviknight, Slowking-G, and Amoonguss cannot stop it from accumulating Calm Minds. This means that not only is CM Fez a late-game wincon, it can blank most stall at Team Preview. Unaware Mons fall to Toxic Chain, and Phasers/Hazers can't remove its boosts.
Tera Water allows it to flip entire matchups on its head. After Tera Water, Gholdengo goes from a solid counter to a shaky check. Gliscor, the premier status absorber, loses the 1v1. Blood Moon gets 1v1'd. And Tera Water Walking Wake in the sun gives Tera Water Fez free set-up:
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Fezandipiti in Sun: 158-186 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now, Fez is not some A-rank threat or anything. It requires a lot of team support, namely to alleviate its match-up into Kingambit and Gholdengo. But it has an interesting place in the metagame that I think will continue to evolve as the tier develops. Linking the team I've used here, and sharing some mid/high ladder replays below that showcase some of what I'm talking about. (Balloon Tran is goated rn, btw. Mono EQ Gliscor gets blanked.)
Looking at this mon's stat spread, one would think it'd be an excellent utility mon. Excellent Poison/Fairy typing, great bulk (88/82/125), an ability that spreads Toxic, and a solid speed stat of 99. But when you read through its movepool, you see that it has next to no utility moves and a whole swath of boosting and coverage options across both sides of the offensive spectrum. That'd be neat until you look at its base middling base 91 Attack and tragic base 70 Special Attack stats.
When the DLC first dropped, people were running pivot sets like this, leveraging its speed above Great Tusk and Baxcalibur to U-Turn around and spread status. It could at least threaten things weak to Fairy and generate some momentum.
Fezandipiti @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 96 SpD / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Heat Wave/Taunt
- U-turn
- Roost
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 96 SpD / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Heat Wave/Taunt
- U-turn
- Roost
However, it became apparent that this set, even with bulkier spreads, contributed very little to a team. It was entirely unable to force progress against Toxic-immune Pokémon, and instead became a U-turn bot. I really like this Pokémon though, and I felt like it had potential, so I kept brainstorming sets and builds that I thought might make it work.
I came up with this:
Fezandipiti @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 100 SpA / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Roost
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 100 SpA / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Roost
Bulky CM Fez is essentially Cresselia--a late-game bulky wincon--that trades Stored Power and some bulk for Speed, a better base typing, a stronger Moonblast, and the ability to contribute in the mid-game. With just max HP invesment, Fez can check or counter a unique range of threats: Dragapult, Greninja, Iron Valiant, Meowscarada, Rillaboom, Samurott-H, Walking Wake, Zamazenta, Zapdos. Slowking-Galar, another bulky poison type, covers some of these Pokémon, too, but Fez compresses its ability to force mons out in the mid-game with the potential to break or sweep late-game.
Fez's offensive calculations work out eerily perfect against Great Tusk, one of the premier answers to bulky Poisons. This spread gives it max HP, enough Speed for Offensive Tusk, and just enough Special Attack to OHKO max HP Tusk:
+1 100 SpA Fezandipiti Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And with Calm Mind, you are able to accumulate more Special Attack boosts than you would with Nasty Plot because you can set up on ridiculous things like Specs Dragapult, non-Psyshock Iron Valiant, SpA Booster Energy Walking Wake, and Spe Booster Iron Moth. Moonblast is seriously a ridiculous STAB move, especially paired with Toxic Chain. You're looking at a 95 BP/100 Acc/24 PP STAB move with a 30% chance to drop Special Attack and a 30% chance to Toxic.
Taunt is what pulls the whole moveset together. With Fez's pivot sets, it was unable to make progress vs. Steel or Poison types. With Taunt, though, it turns most of them into set-up fodder. Toxapex, Empoleon, Corviknight, Slowking-G, and Amoonguss cannot stop it from accumulating Calm Minds. This means that not only is CM Fez a late-game wincon, it can blank most stall at Team Preview. Unaware Mons fall to Toxic Chain, and Phasers/Hazers can't remove its boosts.
Tera Water allows it to flip entire matchups on its head. After Tera Water, Gholdengo goes from a solid counter to a shaky check. Gliscor, the premier status absorber, loses the 1v1. Blood Moon gets 1v1'd. And Tera Water Walking Wake in the sun gives Tera Water Fez free set-up:
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Fezandipiti in Sun: 158-186 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now, Fez is not some A-rank threat or anything. It requires a lot of team support, namely to alleviate its match-up into Kingambit and Gholdengo. But it has an interesting place in the metagame that I think will continue to evolve as the tier develops. Linking the team I've used here, and sharing some mid/high ladder replays below that showcase some of what I'm talking about. (Balloon Tran is goated rn, btw. Mono EQ Gliscor gets blanked.)
vs. HO, checks/counters half the team, beats Booster Wake AND +4 Attack Iron Valiant.
vs. 1860s stall, as soon as my opponent's Heatran went down, it was game over. Fez probably could 1v1 Tran, too; it would just cost a lot of PP. Tera Steel Zama was scary, but Tera Water protected me from Heavy Slam.
vs. Corv+Empoleon, mid-ladder (opp. was 1500), but showcases how Fez can beat things that are supposed to hard counter it. Two Fez rampages in one game.
vs. Webs H.O., low ladder but very real team. I Tera'd too early with my Tran and nearly lost the game, but Fez beats SpA Booster Iron Moth (with Psychic) and stalls NP Gholdengo out of Recovers. If I hadn't gone for Tera with Tran, Tera Water Fez swept.
vs. 1860s stall, as soon as my opponent's Heatran went down, it was game over. Fez probably could 1v1 Tran, too; it would just cost a lot of PP. Tera Steel Zama was scary, but Tera Water protected me from Heavy Slam.
vs. Corv+Empoleon, mid-ladder (opp. was 1500), but showcases how Fez can beat things that are supposed to hard counter it. Two Fez rampages in one game.
vs. Webs H.O., low ladder but very real team. I Tera'd too early with my Tran and nearly lost the game, but Fez beats SpA Booster Iron Moth (with Psychic) and stalls NP Gholdengo out of Recovers. If I hadn't gone for Tera with Tran, Tera Water Fez swept.
yeah, because the one thing this meta needs more of is spikes setters
Just wait until Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Steelix and the other cave/underground mons come back and Game Freak Steel-type Stealth Rock or something.
Thanks for sharing. I too love Fez. I actually have been finding success as a bulky special wall with U-Turn, Beat Up, Roost & Moonblast. It can wall Valiant, Specs Pult, some Blood Moon sets, Zapdos & a lot of other special attackers. You can easily fish for Toxic Chain & Roost. You can also pivot in unfavorable match ups like Ghold & Gambit.
Just to throw in my two cents about the whole “gliscor broken” sotuation: it’s ghold. If we go back to prehome then we’ll see that the meta was centralised largely around glimmora and ting lu, especially the former. Granted, these teams - while definitely at the forefront of the meta - weren’t broken, but we didn’t have mons like zamazenta, ogerpon, enamorus, or even scale shot garchomp and the increase in mons that learn knock off (walking wake, roaring moon, dare I say it okidogi) which would still be amazing with hazard support even if it isn’t from gliscor.
The assertion that the hazard game would just become centred around corv is A: untrue, removing ghold gives tusk a much easier time of spinning, and B: not necessarily a bad thing, it’s better to have 2 mons that are genuinely really good at clearing hazards than one that really isn’t - ghold is facilitating the latter, and even if it becomes a 40% corv usage meta there are still ways of dissuading it’s defog - such as gapdos or even raw offensive pressure with boosted moves, or fire and electric types.
The assertion that the hazard game would just become centred around corv is A: untrue, removing ghold gives tusk a much easier time of spinning, and B: not necessarily a bad thing, it’s better to have 2 mons that are genuinely really good at clearing hazards than one that really isn’t - ghold is facilitating the latter, and even if it becomes a 40% corv usage meta there are still ways of dissuading it’s defog - such as gapdos or even raw offensive pressure with boosted moves, or fire and electric types.
Do you Tera against Luna? Being weak to Earth Power seems like it would undercut that Bulk a fair amount.
I completely forgot this thing got Beat Up as well, which I guess can work when even a bunch of Bulky Balance Pokemon includes stuff like Great Tusk and CInderace who still have like 131/116 Base ATK. I guess the move also works with Technician if we're really scrounging for a way for Fez to hit things, not that it's probably worth giving up Toxic Chain for.
Fezandipiti is the saddest of the L3 Mons to me because it has so many interesting traits while suffering from those traits lacking synergy with each other: Picking 2-3 of the 6+ unique things about it (Typing, Toxic Chain, Technician Movepool, statline, etc) and synergizing those could have made a very unique Glue Pokemon, and instead we get Articuno as Shen from Kung Fu Panda.
Even giving it just the two of Knock Off and Defog as extra movepool additions would make it so much better than it is right now. Leagues better. Even if it isn’t gonna be doing much to Gholdengo with Knock Off, it would still be removing its item at the very least.
unironically pre-H-Sam Pre-home gen 9 OU was the most fun time for me to play the format. H-zoro legal and actually viable, Meowscarada hard punishing Glimm leads, no sneasler, etc. I miss old Gen 9 OU and want it back. Gholdengo wasn't on nearly as many teams because hazard stack wasn't mandatory. I could still do the funny to great tusk with h-zoro. If only they stopped adding pokemon to the game after hisuian zoroark :pensive:
Welcome to the club
Yknow I actually forgot that lead meows was a thing back then as well, and is arguably better one than glimm.
Note to self to turn this into that buzz lightyear meme
my legitimate favorite thing to do at low ladder was to lead with tusk against meow teams and get rocks up for free because they lead with the pivot set instead of the lead set and flower trick cannot kill tusk
after we kick bloodmoon, gambit, hamurott, gambit, gliscor, gambit, valiant, gambit, manaphy, and gambit, we can bring that back
…ah fuck it, there's no way we're getting this shit balanced before dlc2, let's all just take a break and come back at the end of november
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Guys I t
man i've been thinking about it but, i think there's a very good argument to be made about banning valiant, it's just that nobody has typed it yet
the best argument to ban valiant is fucking look at it. seriously. this thing was on the radar before chi-yu was and then everyone just collectively decided that it was perfectly fine to have enby pheromosa in the tier because it has oh so very many consistent offensive and defensive answers, such as:
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Tbh, I think what we need now (after UBM suspect?) is a dedicated thread to discuss the impact of hazards on the metagame (much like tera's threads). It'd be great to have a dedicated space to discuss exactly what role we want hazards to play and how to manage them so they conform to what we want. After the council goes through what the community discusses, they can decide on a suspect and the community can vote on action. It would be a lot easier and clearer to have the ghold vs gliscor vs Hamurott vs spikes as a move debate and choose to get rid of something to make them less overcentralizing. I think having a dedicated thread would be important because this will have a big impact on the meta as a whole and what is and isn't viable.
gholdengo already bans status moves just by existing
i've encountered a few people running Tera Normal FEINT VALIANT just to counter Protect Gliscor.
reverend ass set
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