when HOME releases? what are you even waiting for, a ferrothorn shadow drop? i don't think anything HOME will be releasing is enough to keep walking wake in check in OU, which is why i believe it should be banned.It will definitely be less broken when Home drops, but for now...It's just REALLY unhealthy. I shouldn't have to run Golduck or Sylveon to counter this funny Suicune Lookin' Ass Theropod. I do agree about Garg, though. I wish that people would suspect test that FUCKING Salt Temple.
Game Freak should rename him as Walking Fraud.Hello. Some info dumping from this SPL week to see how Walking Wake works in practice. Granted many teams are prepping for it so an "amazing" performance shouldnt be expected. Please let me know if I wrote an incorrect fact somewhere. Also emphasis on me not including offensive answers.
Walking Wake on this week of SPL:
Some common defensive answers on this week of SPL:
- KOed a 22% Baxcalibur which was being used as sack. KOed a 4% Garchomp. Lost
- In sun, leftis and proto SpA. Switched in against an unboosted Volcarona, 2HKOd Rotom-W as it switched in. Dragapult came in to revenge; Walking Wake Tera Steel and used Agility as Pult used Sub. Next turn WW broke the sub as Pult used Tera Ground and KOd WW with Tera Blast. Lost
- Clicked Hydro Steam twice against Slowking. Was used to take a Hydreigon Dark Pulse and a Future Sight. Tried to double against it but the play did not work out, was sacked the turn after. Lost
- Choice Specs in sun, proto SpA but it wasn't used. Used to switch into a Great Tusk EQ on Sun. OHKOd a Dragonite and damaged a Quaquaval. Lost
- Proto Speed Choice Specs Tera Water in sun. 2HKOd Roaring Moon that tried to switch in. Heavily damaged a Dragapult. Lost
- Choice Specs Tera Water (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Traded with a Tera Fairy Garganacl. Lost
- SpA Booster Energy. Was used to switch into Specs Talonflame and got 2HKOd. Lost
- Was is a rain team but wasnt used under rain. Revenged a mid health Great Tusk and Kingambit late game. Was scared out by a Dragonite both times. Won (but was against another Walking Wake team)
- Specs Proto Speed in Sun. Came to scare out a Garchomp and an Iron Valiant. Damaged a Gholdengo and OHKOd an Iron Valiant. Won
- Specs (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Scared out an opposing Walking Wake. Heavily damaged a Kingambit and KOed a 30% Hatterene. Was up against a Slowking but still did decent damage against the team thanks to positioning against Slowking when it was weakened. Lost
- Proto SpA. Weakened a Hatterene, a Ceruledge, KOed a Torkoal and a Walking Wake. Was used to switch into Torkoal and Ceruledge. Won (but against another Walking Wake team)
- Leftovers. Was used as a sack. Lost
- Switched in against a Slither Wing and weakened it, was forced out by Dragapult. Missed a Draco Meteor against Dragonite and got KOed. Lost
Torkoal, or rather sun teams, had more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 compared to the usual 1-2 uses per week or even compared to its previous peak of 4 uses in week 5. Even then only 1 of such teams won.
- Slowking had way more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 uses compared to its 1-2 uses in previous weeks.
- Toxapex had ~7 uses which is also a lot more than its 2 uses in each of the last couple of weeks; granted this is also due to an increase on stall teams.
- No Gastrodon.
- Clodsire had slightly more usage than previous weeks sitting at ~5.
- Other Pokemon like Azumarill had around the same usage as always.
I wonder how many of Wake's checks are getting high usage because of Wake only. There definitely seems to be a lot of overpreparation for this.Hello. Some info dumping from this SPL week to see how Walking Wake works in practice. Granted many teams are prepping for it so an "amazing" performance shouldnt be expected. Please let me know if I wrote an incorrect fact somewhere. Also emphasis on me not including offensive answers.
Walking Wake on this week of SPL:
Some common defensive answers on this week of SPL:
- KOed a 22% Baxcalibur which was being used as sack. KOed a 4% Garchomp. Lost
- In sun, leftis and proto SpA. Switched in against an unboosted Volcarona, 2HKOd Rotom-W as it switched in. Dragapult came in to revenge; Walking Wake Tera Steel and used Agility as Pult used Sub. Next turn WW broke the sub as Pult used Tera Ground and KOd WW with Tera Blast. Lost
- Clicked Hydro Steam twice against Slowking. Was used to take a Hydreigon Dark Pulse and a Future Sight. Tried to double against it but the play did not work out, was sacked the turn after. Lost
- Choice Specs in sun, proto SpA but it wasn't used. Used to switch into a Great Tusk EQ on Sun. OHKOd a Dragonite and damaged a Quaquaval. Lost
- Proto Speed Choice Specs Tera Water in sun. 2HKOd Roaring Moon that tried to switch in. Heavily damaged a Dragapult. Lost
- Choice Specs Tera Water (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Traded with a Tera Fairy Garganacl. Lost
- SpA Booster Energy. Was used to switch into Specs Talonflame and got 2HKOd. Lost
- Was is a rain team but wasnt used under rain. Revenged a mid health Great Tusk and Kingambit late game. Was scared out by a Dragonite both times. Won (but was against another Walking Wake team)
- Specs Proto Speed in Sun. Came to scare out a Garchomp and an Iron Valiant. Damaged a Gholdengo and OHKOd an Iron Valiant. Won
- Specs (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Scared out an opposing Walking Wake. Heavily damaged a Kingambit and KOed a 30% Hatterene. Was up against a Slowking but still did decent damage against the team thanks to positioning against Slowking when it was weakened. Lost
- Proto SpA. Weakened a Hatterene, a Ceruledge, KOed a Torkoal and a Walking Wake. Was used to switch into Torkoal and Ceruledge. Won (but against another Walking Wake team)
- Leftovers. Was used as a sack. Lost
- Switched in against a Slither Wing and weakened it, was forced out by Dragapult. Missed a Draco Meteor against Dragonite and got KOed. Lost
Torkoal, or rather sun teams, had more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 compared to the usual 1-2 uses per week or even compared to its previous peak of 4 uses in week 5. Even then only 1 of such teams won.
- Slowking had way more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 uses compared to its 1-2 uses in previous weeks.
- Toxapex had ~7 uses which is also a lot more than its 2 uses in each of the last couple of weeks; granted this is also due to an increase on stall teams.
- No Gastrodon.
- Clodsire had slightly more usage than previous weeks sitting at ~5.
- Other Pokemon like Azumarill had around the same usage as always.
i know 2 tapus who are going to give that thing grief. Alolan ninetails resets weather and immune to dragon. Primarina. Mantine if youre desperate. none of these pokemon are deadweight even mantine can learn defog and roostwhen HOME releases? what are you even waiting for, a ferrothorn shadow drop? i don't think anything HOME will be releasing is enough to keep walking wake in check in OU, which is why i believe it should be banned.
No it really hasn't, I have forced myself to use every single play style (from HO to Stall) and all of them are viable with a varying amount of viability, but one thing is clear, its definetly not extremes only. What Walking Wake did is shift the meta to account for a very strong special water dragon breaker, On HO with fairies + dragon like hatt + moon, BO with better spdef checks like Slowking or Spdef Rotom + Steel/fairy, on Balance with mons like Gastrodon and Clodsire making a big rise in the meta, and stall.... Highv0ltag3 you answer this one. Wake just shifted the meta into using real water/dragon resists since before this mon, those types offensively aren't the most common.The tier has grown to extremes rather than continuing to enable various playstyles, which it has done more and more with the prior bans.
(Replying to the full Post) It's not completely warped around it, with the release of wake you now have to account for a strong dragon/water type. I have to also disagree with sun not being a commitment, it definetly is still a commitment. Sun is very weak to hazard and unless you are running sun balance with scream tail or garg, you almost always need hatterene to help with hazards alongside tusk and torkoal. Toxic Spikes can ruin sun teams, Rocks and Spikes heavily cuts into their longevity, and Ghosts can spinblock easily because dragapult has a good match up with sun, while gholdengo has a bad match up vs sun, you can make it work by making it the team's spinblocker and only get it in on potential spinners.TL;DR:
Walking Wake is only broken on Sun, but Sun becomes so powerful with its presence that the tier becomes completely warped around Sun teams in an unhealthy way, I will be voting ban.
D-Rank in Chien Pao meta, gastrodon is definetly MUCH better in this more specially dominated (dengo, pult, wake, rotom, valiant) meta. Gastro also has good utility moves in clear smog and spikes.your outs were running a D rank Pokemon and dodging a Draco Meteor..
(Replying to full post) I have an awful habit of not saving replays so do take it with a grain of salt, but those Tera Wakes example under sun that you've mentioned, i have beaten them with just tera fairy garg + spdef rotom or just clodsire (tera dark, not even fairy) alone, consistently too. Also, Walking Wake is a weather breaker, weather breakers are notorious for always having ways around its counter, From just putting out damage thats so damn big even resist have trouble like Floatzel, or have ways around with with moves, tera, or set up like Brute Bonnet. So with walking wake teetering on the edge of being broken under sun with specialized movesets isn't that bad.Hello OU,
I have a problem with this statement, Walking Wake and Houndstone are very different. Houndstone and Wake really can't be compared, while the cost may be similar, but the results are not. Houndstone is a pokemon that is very bulky, does a TON of damage without needing +attacking nature or damage boosting items, and can even be run out of sand and still 6-0 teams alone. Walking Wake to reach the broken power, NEEDS sun to be active at all times, and even then it won't be 6-0ing prepared teams on the spot. So this comparison isn't really apt, even an indirect one.Despite all this, the cost of running Ttar/Hippo was not high enough to balance Houndstone, so I likewise don't believe that the cost of running torkoal is high enough to balance WW (sun also has higher number and higher variety of abusers.) A direct comparison doesn't hold up bc the base power of Last Respects is ludicrous and WW is much more prediction reliant, but then again that's why we quickbanned houndstone and are suspecting WW.
Yeah in hindsight, I don't think Home will release enough counterplay for Walking Wake. As much as I love it's design, this dude needs to go.when HOME releases? what are you even waiting for, a ferrothorn shadow drop? i don't think anything HOME will be releasing is enough to keep walking wake in check in OU, which is why i believe it should be banned.
its complete lack of defensive answers in the limited SV pokedex makes it very hard to switch into when you take its near perfect coverage, high firepower and the many options it has to bolster wake's breaking power even further. under sun, it's literally impossible to check defensively without burning tera on water absorb clodsire, which generally isn't something you're always going to want to opt for, considering how valuable tera is as an option for most other pokemon. don't get me wrong, terastallizing clodsire is by no means a bad option, it's just not a particularly good option and terastallizing it isn't always ideal. so you either burn tera on clod or you sack a team member and bring in one of its few revenge killers, which is another reason why i think wake should be banned; its general lack of offensive answers.
its limited offensive counterplay is not as egregious as its limited defensive counterplay but it is still very apparent and definitely worth mentioning. wake's amazing speed tier allows it to outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame, such as garchomp, volcarona, hydreigon, baxcalibur, and many other offensive threats, only being outsped and threatened by iron valiant, roaring moon and dragapult. but what makes matters even worse is that it can very easily opt for an EV spread to gain the proto boost on its speed, allowing it to blow past them with ease, be it under sun or with booster energy. and even without sun support or booster energy, it can still utilize terastallization to its advantage, something it's very good at abusing effeciently. wake can opt for a wide variety of tera types to pick off revenge killers, like tera fairy to beat opposing wakes, moon and pult or tera steel if you want to beat them as well as valiant, to say nothing of other tera options you could use. you could even tera into a water type to gain an extra boost on hydro steam and shed the dragon and fairy weaknesses against the aforementioned revenge killers, making use of its excellent natural bulk. this allows it to easily survive any hit thrown at it and give it the opportunity to fire back with a powerful attack in return. its bulk is yet another reason as to why it's so hard to check, especially in tandem with its typing. walking wake easily survives neutral hits from the likes of meowscarada, scarf gholdengo, kingambit, greninja, dragonite (if not running outrage) and any other revenge killers and kills them in return, and its resistances to common moves means it can easily come in to fulfill its role immediately.
it's just an incredibly suffocating force when you take all of this into account and i think it's unhealthy as a result. i don't have time to even try and obtain reqs on this suspect test (and i haven't adapted to wake yet so i probably wouldn't obtain them regardless) but i'd certainly vote ban if i did.
This really makes me think that people overreacted by wanting to ban Walking Wake after literally existing for under a week. Do any of these results scream ban worthy to you? We have data from 13 top level games. Walking Wake won *checks notes* 3 times. That's a win rate of 23%. Here's the key:Hello. Some info dumping from this SPL week to see how Walking Wake works in practice. Granted many teams are prepping for it so an "amazing" performance shouldnt be expected. Please let me know if I wrote an incorrect fact somewhere. Also emphasis on me not including offensive answers.
Walking Wake on this week of SPL:
Some common defensive answers on this week of SPL:
- KOed a 22% Baxcalibur which was being used as sack. KOed a 4% Garchomp. Lost
- In sun, leftis and proto SpA. Switched in against an unboosted Volcarona, 2HKOd Rotom-W as it switched in. Dragapult came in to revenge; Walking Wake Tera Steel and used Agility as Pult used Sub. Next turn WW broke the sub as Pult used Tera Ground and KOd WW with Tera Blast. Lost
- Clicked Hydro Steam twice against Slowking. Was used to take a Hydreigon Dark Pulse and a Future Sight. Tried to double against it but the play did not work out, was sacked the turn after. Lost
- Choice Specs in sun, proto SpA but it wasn't used. Used to switch into a Great Tusk EQ on Sun. OHKOd a Dragonite and damaged a Quaquaval. Lost
- Proto Speed Choice Specs Tera Water in sun. 2HKOd Roaring Moon that tried to switch in. Heavily damaged a Dragapult. Lost
- Choice Specs Tera Water (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Traded with a Tera Fairy Garganacl. Lost
- SpA Booster Energy. Was used to switch into Specs Talonflame and got 2HKOd. Lost
- Was is a rain team but wasnt used under rain. Revenged a mid health Great Tusk and Kingambit late game. Was scared out by a Dragonite both times. Won (but was against another Walking Wake team)
- Specs Proto Speed in Sun. Came to scare out a Garchomp and an Iron Valiant. Damaged a Gholdengo and OHKOd an Iron Valiant. Won
- Specs (was in a sun team but wasnt used under sun). Scared out an opposing Walking Wake. Heavily damaged a Kingambit and KOed a 30% Hatterene. Was up against a Slowking but still did decent damage against the team thanks to positioning against Slowking when it was weakened. Lost
- Proto SpA. Weakened a Hatterene, a Ceruledge, KOed a Torkoal and a Walking Wake. Was used to switch into Torkoal and Ceruledge. Won (but against another Walking Wake team)
- Leftovers. Was used as a sack. Lost
- Switched in against a Slither Wing and weakened it, was forced out by Dragapult. Missed a Draco Meteor against Dragonite and got KOed. Lost
Torkoal, or rather sun teams, had more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 compared to the usual 1-2 uses per week or even compared to its previous peak of 4 uses in week 5. Even then only 1 of such teams won.
- Slowking had way more usage than any other week sitting at ~6 uses compared to its 1-2 uses in previous weeks.
- Toxapex had ~7 uses which is also a lot more than its 2 uses in each of the last couple of weeks; granted this is also due to an increase on stall teams.
- No Gastrodon.
- Clodsire had slightly more usage than previous weeks sitting at ~5.
- Other Pokemon like Azumarill had around the same usage as always.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with an increased frequency of mons like Clodsire and Toxapex that already had a place in gen 9 OU. The meta is constantly evolving; players are adapting and making it apparent that Walking Wake is beyond manageable. I'm not saying that it isn't strong or causing changes in usage, but banning a mon with a 23% win rate in tournament play just seems odd. I'm voting do not ban on Walking Wake.many teams are prepping for it
Yeah, IDK if Gastro is a counter. I've been tryna use Vert's Balance team that he posted early and Gastro gets completely goobed by Specs Draco / Flamethrower depending on whether its Tera'd or not, but more importantly, does absolutely nothing back to Wake bar setting up Spikes (which can be risky given that many Wake structures feature the Hat). Admittingly, I think part of the problem is that Clear Smog lets a lot of stuff in for free + doesn't actually help against Wake, so I swapped to using Sludge Bomb and am gonna see if that fixes this issue (haven't faced any since the switch weirdly). Sludge in general seems like a nice move since its kinda like Scald / Toxic from last gen + goobs various other Gastro switch like Meowscarada and Scovillan.Counters: Slowking, Clodsire, Gastrodon, Azumarill
Checks: Corviknight + Water, Gholdengo + Dragonite, SpDef Corviknight, SpDef Garg + Fairy/Water Resist (depending if you are tera water or fairy on garg), Roaring Moon + Iron Valiant, Amoonguss, SpDef Rotom-Wash
If Gastro Teras Fairy, it counters Walking Wake, same with Clodsire. Azumarill to my knowledge is the only natural counter (at least in OU) (hence the spike in usage)Yeah, IDK if Gastro is a counter. I've been tryna use Vert's Balance team that he posted early and Gastro gets completely goobed by Specs Draco / Flamethrower depending on whether its Tera'd or not, but more importantly, does absolutely nothing back to Wake bar setting up Spikes (which can be risky given that many Wake structures feature the Hat). Admittingly, I think part of the problem is that Clear Smog lets a lot of stuff in for free + doesn't actually help against Wake, so I swapped to using Sludge Bomb and am gonna see if that fixes this issue (haven't faced any since the switch weirdly). Sludge in general seems like a nice move since its kinda like Scald / Toxic from last gen + goobs various other Gastro switch like Meowscarada and Scovillan.
Nah, Gastro gets completely goobed if it goes Tera Fairy. I think that's better as a potential stop gap measure if the Wake Draco's, but its not ideal since its Flamethrower now completely cooks it and that move isn't as exploitable as Draco.If Gastro Teras Fairy, it counters Walking Wake, same with Clodsire. Azumarill to my knowledge is the only natural counter (at least in OU) (hence the spike in usage)
Azumarill always comes back during all suspect test, came back when Chi-Yu was running amuck, came back for even Chien-Pao, and now it's back for Walking Wake
PUT RESPEKT ON AZUMARILLS NAME, ITS BEEN CARRYING THE META FOR THE LAST 3 MONTHS (sarcasm)
-better offensive typing against major threats in its genWalking Wake is very comparable to Darm-G
Darm-G has a worse typing, worse bulk, worse speed tier, is physical with 140 attack, only has ice STAB, got banned to Ubers
Walking Wake is better bulk, faster, special with 120 sp.atk, dual STAB is very powerful
-WW is restricted to sun and has to be sent in relatively quickly"Oh but Darm-G's ability gives it a free choice band"
Walking Wake's ability in sun gives it a free choice scarf without the choiced limitation, just slap on a choice specs and call it a day
-gdarm outsped much more of the fat SS metagame than WW outspeeds of the speedy SV metagame"Oh but Darm-G can run Band with GT"
Does Darm-G have tera dragon Draco Meteor with Protosynthesis SpA boost + choice specs? Exactly
"Darm-G has more coverage!"
tera blast
"yeah, if this tier is about as powerful as early gen 8" nope. no. stop right there. noYeah if Darm-G was banned in gen 8, and this tier has a similar power level to early gen 8, Walking Wake definitely should be banned
I might get reqs if I can stop being a god-damn idiot and obtain a viable team to use
Actually...Dude literally said, "How DARE you accuse him blah blah" and I expressed something that proves the contrary lmao.
This is what I said. So probably don't go making shit up when it's viewable a few comments back. And that's all I'll say to you since you still wannaI'm amazed you can accuse Finch of having confirmation bias about WW here,
Also can we stop with this? Please stop complaining about a lack of Volc or Garg suspects when survey results didn't give justification for either. I also see this weird fixation from some comments on Wake not really having other Uber dangerous sets when... A min doesn't always need many. Sometimes it just needs one (and Wake does have variations on proto between speed and spatk boosts, both equally threatening).Also seeing how as well as haven't been getting proper tiering action since the introduction of Gen 9 while arguably being scarier to prep for because of the variety of sets they can run I do think Walking Wake should simply get more time around and get retested at a later point in time, in case new sets are discovered and metagame trends change and it actually shows itself as broken in the end.
I can answer thiscan we stop with this? Please stop complaining about a lack of Volc or Garg suspects when survey results didn't give justification for either
The tone of this thread has really shifted from its' inception though. A lot of people supported a ban 2 weeks ago. There's still some who do but the last page of people who got reqs have all said DNB. Real_Corviknight said ban but by their own admission they havent played enough to adapt to it yet. Of course to a player whos yet to apadt it'll seem suffocating. Walking wake doesnt run the tier like Chi-yu or Flutter mane, and loses 1v1 to common pokemon unless you give it a free switch. I wouldnt be worried, I think it was jumping the gun on the suspect but the outcome will likely be do not ban.In all honesty, this is just a completely strange thread to me.
Let me preface this by saying that I am absolutely not qualified to judge the current state of the tier, I never was a newer gen player, didn't play a tour since 2018 and didn't get reqs on the last two suspects despite trying, so I hope this post isn't going to get me infracted instantly. But just from lurking in the OU forum, I really don't get why we are suspecting a shiny new toy just days after its release.
Obviously whenever a sweeper comes out, everyone on the ladder will spam the same low-effort offense team to test it out, and the tier will in turn become centralised around it and require some specific over-preparation in the short term. But this is not USUM Naganadel, which could 6-0 entire teams that didn't run AV SDef Tar, and neither is it XY Aegislash, where after a year and various meta shifts it was possible to conclude that it would consistently have too much breaking power in any meta. The main two arguments in this thread are 1. theoretical calcs with the assumption that it can always plausibly be +SAtk and +Speed at the same time (which would require both to stay similarly viable in the middle to long term), and that having to guess the variant puts too much of a disadvantage on the opponent; and 2. that the "current meta" is overcentralised by this mon, which in some unspecified way (apologies if it was specified in more detail and I didn't catch that) puts Sun just exactly over the edge. The latter just somewhat fell apart with the first SPL week where Walking Wake was allowed, the great post that SetsuSetsuna compiled above shows exactly one game where it won against a team that didn't have it, without any otherwise unviable hard check like Tauros for Pao rising in usage, or even any meta shifts at all that weren't already happening anyway (as far as I could note, Pex has been rising for weeks).
So why is this suspect happening at all? There was a quickban vote prior to this, and it didn't even reach a simple majority. After 5 days, nobody is in the position to make an observation whether the metagame will stabilise in the long term or not, as long as there isn't anything blatantly bulldozing the entire tier Flutter Mane style. Most controversial bans during the last 3 generations were mons that put a similar burden of prediction on the opponent (Band/Specs vs Scarf vs boosting move) where one could eventually conclude that they were too consistent in giving the user a cheap advantage. The recent Chien-Pao suspect is a great example, because even after the initial hype had worn off, it was clear that both Band and SD were still good, and both enabled a lot of pressure with little prediction skill required for the user, and this was also reflected in SPL results. All of these previous bans were very understandable to me, even as a RBY main. This right here? I don't get why we are doing this, and it's worrying me.
I think this whole page should reread these.
- No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects;
- No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Walking Wake vs other potential suspects;
Outside Clod, Pex, Azy and Slowking not much, but I'm seeing more Dragapults are running sub to take advantage of Torkoal.Out of curiosity, have you noticed a rise in any mons due to Walking Wake's presence beyond the checks? Like for example, a rise in special walls with recovery like Clodsire for it in turn encouraging Stallbreakers to stop that healing or giving rise to yet other Special attackers that can capitalize on or overwhelm it.