Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Sleepwalking

[viivian]

got a few mentions from this thread after posting so i thought i'd respond to some

The tone of this thread has really shifted from its' inception though. A lot of people supported a ban 2 weeks ago. There's still some who do but the last page of people who got reqs have all said DNB. Real_Corviknight said ban but by their own admission they havent played enough to adapt to it yet. Of course to a player whos yet to apadt it'll seem suffocating. Walking wake doesnt run the tier like Chi-yu or Flutter mane, and loses 1v1 to common pokemon unless you give it a free switch. I wouldnt be worried, I think it was jumping the gun on the suspect but the outcome will likely be do not ban.

FWIW i have played more of the current meta recently and i have adapted significantly more to walking wake than when i wrote that post. with that being said, i still find it problematic for the time being, as well as being too hard to consistently answer defensively, with or without support from sun (or rain), but its speed tier, while amazing, means it (annoyingly) loses out to some really common offensive pokemon, such as dragapult and iron valiant, for instance. i'm moreso in the middle now than i was prior, since while it is very hard to wall thanks to its STABs and weather support, as well as it having the near perfect speed tier to abuse both, it's sometimes not fast enough to beat certain threats without burning tera, and, as you said, resetting its weather can be seriously problematic for it, even though it can function perfectly fine without it. now i just don't know what to do with wake, whereas i was strongly in favor of banning it before

Heres a creative set:
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 52.4% chance to 3HKO
yes thats CHOICE SPECS SUPEREFFECTIVE hit. for whatever reason people are either lazy or stubborn theres a hundred and one ways to tackle this thing. BOOHOO i cant use the pokemon that smogon teambuilder told me were OU worthy.
That zero attack tyranitar can 2hko back with dragon claw or assurance. Or run ice beam for when they switch great tusk into it. Dont give walking wake a free switch. thats your fault for letting your guard down, plenty of other pokemon can run away with the game if you give them a free turn. WW is no different.

tyranitar loses to literally every other pokemon in the meta though, not to mention how it's completely outclassed as a defensive rock type by garganacl. yeah, AV tyranitar could be a niche anti-sun team tech but who cares when it not only has a bad matchup against everything else in OU but also hard loses to a sun staple in great tusk? i see the point you're trying to make but i respectfully suggest that you find a better example than a pokemon who has fallen off hard and is currently struggling to find a place for itself as of now

i know 2 tapus who are going to give that thing grief. Alolan ninetails resets weather and immune to dragon. Primarina. Mantine if youre desperate. none of these pokemon are deadweight even mantine can learn defog and roost

fully agreed, all of these could definitely give it trouble but the issue is that only one of them has been confirmed to be returning, and it's not even in the HOME meta. not exactly relevant as of now or the near future.

 

[Pinlup is the best]

walking wake is not broken. there is (a) nothing wrong with sun being top-tier & (b) sun as an archetype folds heavy to many common threats:

sun threat list

you click substitute on torkoal and it literally shits on every sun staple with dragon darts | hex | will-o-wisp

offensive great tusk abuses your opponent setting up sun and is an absolute bastard for your opponent to reliably check since their defensive backbone usually consists of hatterene + their own defensive tusk max

sun folds 6-0 to this. bulk up +def tusk is usually their only answer which is not hard at all to wear down

another pokemon sun struggles with. walking wake does check it but this is moot depending on its tera type. simply bringing volcarona in causes a lot of sun players to panic so you can even click bug buzz on the switch to chip walking wake and set up later

any glimmora set is an absolute bitch for sun to maneuver around. if they go hard into walking wake on stealth rock, you can proceed to chip it with dazzling gleam via focus sash then sack it later in the game to get up a toxic spike

even your own walking wake is phenomenal check since it 4x resists hydro steam which makes it maneuverable around in practice when paired with a fairy-type. i know someone is going to say "you're using broken to check broken" but some of walking wake's best sets are substitute + roar with hazard support & booster energy, both which don't require sun support. bringing sun is a risk because while you do make your walking wake extremely potent, it can also backfire in case your opponent loads a weather-less team with walking wake

show me a sun team then show me their chainchomp switch-ins

walking wake checks

+speed proto is very scary but even offense has plenty of checks. in addition to threats i displayed above, some of these include:

iron valiant (booster / scarf)
booster iron moth
azumarill
kingambit after some chip
a plethora of dragon-types like hydreigon, baxcalibur, and roaring moon that punish the hydro steam lock
focus sash users such as meowscarada, ceruledge, breloom, and zoroark-h
timely defensive teras to heavily chip if not outright remove walking wake

if it's +SpA protosynthesis, your options for revenge killing are even wider. a 'mon i like using right now isgreninja. choice specs grass knot always OHKO's after SR. greninja is also impossible for sun teams to switch into in general

some high ladder replays of walking wake being manageable with various styles of offense: 1 / 2 / 3

now that i have this out of the way, i'm going to address the main issue people have with walking wake and that is whether this pokemon has defensive counter-play. not only do I think it has defensive counter-play but all of walking wake's defensive counter-play is both viable and abundant. allow me to list some of it:

water absorb clodsire cockblocks walking wake. if you pair it with a fairy-type (basic team-building synergy my guy, it's not hard to ask for), your opponent will have trouble choosing whether to click hydro steam and draco meteor. if clodsire comes in on draco meteor, you recover. if they overpredict and go for hydro steam, you have a free turn to spike or toxic.
i find it funny how whoever wrote the OP said this is a "fringe option." slowking is very good, B+ rank 'mon prior to walking wake's introduction and chilly reception absolutely dicks on sun teams. sun 'mons without protosynthesis are UU-level threats
toxapex is a dogshit pokemon and players are still using it despite the nerfs and chien-pao ban. toxapex now has a defined niche. it pivots in safely and is a pain for sun teams in general since it can put on a lot of pressure with toxic spikes

take a look at this replay and tell me what sun does to water garganacl. sun is ass bro, shit loses 6-0 to it LOL just pair it with a fairy- or a steel-type like corviknight in my case for in-game flexibility
extremely solid walking wake answer since it receives the +spdef boost in sun. scream tail is criminally underrated: it literally counter-teams all the brainless HO's being spammed right now with encore. wish keeps teammates healthy
underexplored 'mons that i have been spamming. sun never stays up when you have either sand setter and these are not bad pokemon at all. sand chip in general is lowkey broken and both 'mons are solid stealth rock setters. hatterene are mostly eject on sun and draining kiss never outheals eq + sand chip from hippowdon. in case you don't play sun, hippowdon is still a bitch to take down in other mu's and annoys the fuck out of offense with whirlwind. tyranitar has utility by checking 'mons like skeledirge, iron moth, and certain volcarona sets, spreading paralysis, and applying pressure to great tusk on the switch with ice beam. while neither sand setter is a walking wake switch-in, sand allows you to get away with softer counter-play like amoonguss or specially defensive corviknight for walking wake
exclusive to stall

^ this is all when it comes to hard counter-play in the builder. walking wake can also be dealt with in practice with combinations like fairy-type + specially defensive rotom-w (not an unset, people were using this for dragapult even pre-walking wake) and yes, dare i say it, gastrodon


https://pokepast.es/46a0bae5e238a594
in order to prove my points, i decided to use some fat balance for my 30-0 suspect test run. it would be hypocritical if i used offense and said walking wake was fine, wouldn't it? gastrodon is very good in my opinion. the shit got spikes this generation which means it's not as passive as you think despite losing scald and toxic. and unlike clodsire, it can actually kill great tusk with surf which is big. the gastrodon on this team is forced to run clear smog (hatterene 6-0's otherwise) but i can see this thing doing even more work on different team compositions as earth power is a nice secondary stab for exerting pressure. garganacl is my fairy-type and stealth rock user of choice to complete the hazard core and force walking wake into uncomfortable situations when it comes to picking between hydro steam and draco meteor. curse > protect in order to bypass certain substitute users. iron moth is my np gholdengo check, while also checking skeledirge and volcarona with acid spray. corviknight and great tusk complete the defensive backbone to blanket check a lot of attackers (mainly kingambit and opposing great tusk) while providing hazard control simultaneously. ditto is used last for flexibility vs cheese + set up 'mons that get out of control since the squad has no unaware users. it's also nice for winning salt cure pp wars vs opposing garganacl

____
now allow me to address the entire

tera-dragon +SpA protosynthesis modest specs argument. i had a scary encounter with this set yesterday and it did some insane shit like 82% to my physically defensive corviknight and basically being an auto-kill button vs my fat balance. AND I STILL HAD OUTS VS IT. i played him a couple games afterwards too and i came to the realization his team was just a shitty match-up fish squad as all i did with a different team the 2nd game was bring in chomp and claim a kill every time → x button

i don't find these types of sets to be a good indicator on whether walking wake is broken or not as they are only good in specific mu's and and a complete liability in others. great tusk can do the same shit with cb adamant +atk protosynthesis tera-ground headlong rush. should we ban that too? the calc's say otherwise don't it? take a look at this replay as well. should we ban iron valiant? all i did was set-up terrain then come in with +SpA quark drive modest specs tera-fairy moonblast and invalidated this guy's entire balance team! broken!

i find walking wake extremely tame compared to volcarona and garganacl. it's only been a week since walking wake has been released and players are refusing to adapt which i find to be a big problem. we gave pussy garg 5 fuckin' months and there still hasn't been any tiering action despite the last survey saying otherwise. running hyper-specific cloak 'mons and tech'ing substitute on everything is healthy, right guys? cloak toxapex, cloak amoonguss, cloak corv etc. are dogshit; you're using it as a meowscarada, iron valiant, and great tusk knock off switch-in too! not to mention the whole substitute thing can be counter-acted by curse sets lol

but you know what? let's ignore that because apparently walking mid is some flutter mane level threat that needs immediate tiering action! fuck outta here man, it's only been 6 days. i'm voting do not ban, you guys are all soft as fuck

252 SpA Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 199-235 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

1:Gilmore how is that thing a counter it is frill as hell great tusk is almost on every Sun team so how is that supposed to be a counter or check.

2. Volcarona okay this one's funny that thing is weak to hydro steam and gets destroyed by walking wake the Pokemon that we are suspect testing so how is that even on the list of counters and checks.

3.garchomp I don't have to pull up the calculator to show you what hydro steam does to a garchomp you should already know.

4. I shouldn't need to pull up the calculator for great tusk either
5. If the walking wake is getting the speed boost then dragpult is as good as dead.

For all of these counters and checks are meant for sun I don't think you actually understand what the suspect test is for we're not testing to see if Sun is broken we're a suspects texting to see if walking wake is broken by the looks of your list it seems it is the only check to walking wake on that list of yours is walking wake itself and water absorb Pokemon. Even then some of these checks and counters are even meant for Sun like I was laughing at your post because some of these make no sense as a counter to Sun or a counter to walking wake.

 

[morph in sandbox]

For all of these counters and checks are meant for sun I don't think you actually understand what the suspect test is for we're not testing to see if Sun is broken we're a suspects texting to see if walking wake is broken by the looks of your list it seems it is the only check to walking wake on that list of yours is walking wake itself and water absorb Pokemon. Even then some of these checks and counters are even meant for Sun like I was laughing at your post because some of these make no sense as a counter to Sun or a counter to walking wake.

Pokemon do not exist in a vacuum. Unless your Walking Wake set includes Sunny Day and you are factoring in the Azumarill tricking WW a Choice Specs for that calculation you made, I think it is appropriate to consider the other Pokemon on a sun team when you are assessing the strength of a sun reliant Pokemon.

 

[MANNAT]

3 | Walking Wake | 13 | 32.50% | 23.08% |

Walking Mid.

 

[Sabella]

3 | Walking Wake | 13 | 32.50% | 23.08% |

Walking Mid.

Warping mid

 

[DJ_red_lantern]

I haven't played the meta at all, but the whole "meta warping" aspect of Walking Wake seems like a really jank reasoning to ban it in my opinion. If it were in the meta from day 1 there wouldn't be anywhere near this amount of talk about how meta warping it is because the meta would have been built around it existing from the start, like it did with Gholdengo.

 

[Nasirr]

On what side is the suspect test leaning to so far?

 

[Divine Retribution]

On what side is the suspect test leaning to so far?

The voting thread isn't even up yet.

 

[Black Hanzo]

On what side is the suspect test leaning to so far?

just lurking on this thread alone it seems we reached our climax that most want walking wake ban until home patch comes

 

[Divine Retribution]

A lot of the people who posted in this thread, mostly on the pro-ban side, haven't even made suspect reqs yet, and the deadline is tomorrow. We will see one way or the other, but I anticipate this will be one of the more controversial suspects regardless of the results.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

A lot of the people who posted in this thread, mostly on the pro-ban side, haven't even made suspect reqs yet, and the deadline is tomorrow. We will see one way or the other, but I anticipate this will be one of the more controversial suspects regardless of the results.

It will be close but not controversial. The voting reqs are standard. If it gets banned, then banned. If no ban, then no ban

People need to respect whatever's the result tomorrow

 

[Storm Zone]

Okay so after playing in the walking WOKE(cuz it got yall woke for some reason, get it haha as if chiyu wasnt ou for 3 months) meta for some time, i heard both sides of ban and dnb, and i get it, it feels like a warped meta, but the meta change can only have a positive impact because of the given premise, i am dnb and i feel like i should share some good reasoning for why it should stay in OU and why it is a good influence on the tier:

- Now to my first point: Its very weak without the sun, ive done some calcs to prove that, it does need the sun to break otherwise even physdef pex can check it,
before with pao, u needed 2 mons, now u just need longevity, or offense/priority.

Outside of Sun Specs calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 236-282 (45.9 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 47-56 (13 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 510-601 (117.5 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 114-135 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 65.9% chance to 3HKO

Now you see here, it needs a specs even outside of the sun to even break, and toxapex is not even full spdef, this effectively gives pex a new niche, now it becomes a great tspiker, very nice at blanket checking cheese like quaquaval etc.

This brings me to azu, this pokemon has been called trash for quite awhile now, but it is quite good even before wake, and i feel like people will start realising now as azu also gets a new niche as a wake check.

Now , without a specs, it really disappoints power wise:

Outside Sun Non Specs calcs:
252 SpA Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 158-188 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 135-160 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 145-172 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 422-498 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

hydro steam cannot even 2hko kingambit, and it does 30-36 to ting lu, its supposed to be super-effective, but is about as effective as rotom hydro

Now my main point here is, it needs 2 premises to be considered a breaker, it needs the specs, and the sun, or, it needs the sun and spatk boosting which is arguably most effective:

In Sun Specs calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 224-264 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Sun: 464-548 (90.2 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 93-109 (25.9 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 224-264 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 536-632 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (given no absorb)

These 2 premises come with a huge momentum penalty, torkoal has 0 momentum moves, so not only do u have to worry about safely getting it in, you have to worry about hazards, and leading the no momentum hazard setter itself, so an eject button would be required, and a hatterene likely, so 3 slots just to get walking wake going. its basically new toy syndrome, thats why everyone uses wake sun to try to mess around with it. Sun overall is an inconsistent playstyle, and if u want to consider wake broken, it comes with the price of sacrificing many matchups especially dragonite, and slowking(which is a reasonable and effective pivot). And even Draco has a penalty, it drops spatk after its used, and it requires sun being up and a specs to be able to nuke, so i will not be accepting draco calcs as an argument because i am going off of the fact that it needs 2-3 premises to become a nuke, and one of those is momentum so basically 3.

- Which brings me to my next point:

the pokemon that are being used to check it all have very nice niches:

Spdef scream tail: can encore every setup mon, check tusk, set rocks, wish protect any mon up, is a check to dnite, can deal with dragapult if it teras and it has great defensive stats, it is also one of the only bulky fairies in ou so it can sponge hits from dragons, and if the sun is up its defenses benefit.

Slowking: amazing pivot, can future sight, wall most special attackers including rotom wash, volcarona if it teras, armarouge, pult if it teras, it has reliable recovery, regen, and benefits great breakers like gambit and baxcalibur alot.

Gastrodon: is a spiker now, and a rocker that can recover, it walls rotom wash well, walls specs pult, can defeat rain teams single handedly, takes on gholdengo really well, can even counter it if its sticky hold.

Toxapex: a great tspiker, deals with offense well and can regen all its health gradually.


And the rest of the pokemon that soft check it w priority are already meta, like kingambit, dragonite, meowscarada, tera chomp, tera baxcalibur, booster mons like valiant and roaring moon.

- My next point:

If using double sub + triple cloak is considered healthy counterplay, an item that would see no usage without nacl, then gastrodon, toxapex and slowking, which are very nice in ou, is more than fine as counterplay, its not like wake has no counters, it has lots of counterplay with uses outside of checking it, its not even a metagame warp its just adaptation, as u can see people obviously adapted quickly the issue with them is that they dont want to adapt.

Effective counterplay that can also force progress:

- tspikes toxapex

- spikes gastro

- pivot slowking

- priority i.e. kingambit, dragonite

- booster energy mons, like roaring moon and iron valiant

- water absorb clodsire (one ability switch from unaware to absorb will not hurt)

- spdef rotom-wash

- dd baxcalibur with tera fairy

- scream tail

- azumarill

- garg and ting lu with tera water (any special wall with tera water should do the trick)

- blissey

- spdef amoonguss(tera on flame if necessary)

- qd volcarona if tera fairy/water

- spdef umbreon(can still wish pass, and check specs pult/psyspam/dnite , huh someone should look into umbreon damn, i realised how nice it was while writing this)

- sylveon (soft checks alot of meta pokemon and can wish pass)


As u can see we have a very long list of counterplay, some more effective than others but still all effective.

And for my next point :-

Walking wake had a disappointing winrate in SPL, only scoring a small few victories, and alot of Losses, correct me if im wrong but counterplay arose quickly, defensively, only slowking, pex, and clodsire rose in usage and offensively, only torkoal and valiant rose in usage, and i mean in both spl and ladder, even in games where it does alot, once it goes down, automatically the opponent gets an edge because of the premises required for wake to deal alot of damage, so lets use an example:

torkoal hatterene walking wake: Once wake dies, we remain with an ejectless hatt, and a torkoal, and we need to rely on the other slots to force progress now.

So you see the sacrifice that comes with it, was it worth it? i think not, and its like, if wake does not have these premises(specifically sun, hazard control, and momentum) it will not deal any damage and it will be walled/phased out as showed by some calcs above.

The way this metagame has warped around great tusk and gholdengo, and arguably garg because of cloak, is far far greater than the warp wake had, so we cannot use a warped metagame as an argument when we have gholdengo aka mr. super mario bros world 3-8 super warp aka walking warp in ou or great tusk aka mr. luke warper in ou.

Before my last point i wanna state my metagame predictions for both outcomes:

if ban:
1. washtom volcarona garg cores will have a resurgence
2. shed tail worm + moon + volca and many volc hos with little water resists will rise
3. ceruledge/armarouge and psyspam will see lots of usage
4. Rain and floatzel may become popular again
5. kingambit balance, lots of them will rise, especially those with water resist rotom
6. Ting lu spikestack will rise drastically

if no ban:
1. sun finally has a niche and will remain popular
2. Ting lu spikestack will rise but with tera water, or toxapex, which makes it better
3. lots of kingambit + wake balance
4. shed tail ho with fast booster mons like valiant and moon will rise
5. lots of fairy teras on water resists, especially setup ones like bax and dragonite
6. Gastro spikestack will rise
7. scream tail which is a great mon, will rise, its so good and people will finally realise it
8. Tera water garg balance will rise

So u see the metagame would be expected to be more versatile with wake than without it.

- And to my final point:

a double standard is being applied here and i do not blame finchinator for it, i blame us as a playerbase and yes this does include me, we took 3 months to vote on incredibly restricting pokemon like chi yu, ape, and cyclizar, which to this day counterplay hasnt arisen, but as walking wake has arrived, we only take a few days to vote for action on the survey, this is why we should have sit back and waited to see if it was broken first before we jump to banning or suspecting it, because like every other metagame threat, counterplay doesnt arise that quickly, it didnt even arise that quickly for dragonite or valiant this gen, or melmetal last gen, or magearna in 7, just to name a few examples, so i personally would go ahead and vote do not ban because as i expected, counterplay arose, and is positive in terms of metagame impact, and also effective in terms of forcing progress. I think at first, people just didnt know how to deal with walking wake, but now they have adapted in a very positive way and i hope this metagame continues to go in a positive direction =)

 

[Annomous_89]

I can’t vote but if I could I would ban
Walking wake may immediately seem good on sun and it is but wake can be used on rain to check sun

 

[Finchinator]

I think that the metagame has adapted pretty well to Walking Wake. I do feel that it is restrictive still, but seeing things like Slowking popping up as a pivot on bulky-offense and Scream Tail see more use on balances is cool as both offer other match-up coverage as well. I do think people need to try out more sets such as Agility and Substitute, but perhaps that’s also a sign of further metagame adaptation to come, which is a healthy mechanism.

I will say that some other Pokemon people label as counters like Tera Fairy Garganacl or Toxapex I don’t agree with as much; overall, I still find the pool of Walking Wake answers to be limited and very Tera reliant given this. However, I’m pretty sure that regardless of my personal vote — likely ban, the community will vote it to stay unbanned and I don’t view this as that bad of an outcome at all. The timing of this release was about as unfortunate as possible, especially with the Home date being unknown, but I think the playerbase is mostly doing a good job responding through the game. It’s pretty bizarre seeing people try and rip on the council, especially through posts that aren’t even fit to be in this thread, for encountering an entirely unprecedented circumstance. I am pretty happy with the process we adhered to and think we continue to trend in the right direction this generation (and last) with staying on top of the ball. Anyone asking for more action to be crammed into such a short period of time is either asking for an overhaul of the entire tiering and suspect system to make that possible, which goes over our heads, or is just out of touch with what’s realistic.

Something I personally find interesting and perhaps one of the better parts of this generation is that our metagame (and community as an extent) may be shifting the way in which “broken” Pokemon are constituted. We have new means of defensively answering Pokemon through Terastallization. Personally I have tried to toe an awkward line when including it in arguments to not ban something because there is a large risk and opportunity cost associated with any Terastallization, which alone speaks volumes to the impact a Pokemon may be having if it forces this. However, it is a perfectly valid and understandable method of counterplay that we see used purposefully for specific threats, so some value and credit must be assigned as well. I think this is one of the best, but also most scary, parts of teambuilding and suspect arguments this generation.

I think people are all over the place as to what this may mean, too. Some people will bloat their list of checks and counters with Tera Fairy Pokemon for Dragons or Tera Dark for Psychics, for example. On the flip side, others will argue that this can be predicted around and it forces the hand of the opponent. At the end of the day, I find it to be somewhere in the middle, but this is a very interesting and real case study that we will undoubtedly continue to patrol. Stuff like this is why I am personally refreshed by the unique elements they add each generation, even if it can drive us a bit bonkers.

With all of this in mind, I do find Walking Wake quite playable and it can be part of a competitive metagame. I also find it to have a large impact that a handful of posts missed on by tunneling in on different strategies for it without considering the context. I’m likely sticking with my initial opinion as I still find the strain it has to be large and the metagame to be quite volatile, but I don’t mind that much either way at this point and see both sides.

 

[spottyunderdog]

If i could vote to and had the skill to qualify i'd vote to BAN. I already run a terra water Garganacl as a way of checking a few pokemon but the terra water GArg is the only thing stopping my team from being completely over run by walking wake

 

[1LDK]

Something I personally find interesting and perhaps one of the better parts of this generation is that our metagame (and community as an extent) may be shifting the way in which “broken” Pokemon are constituted. We have new means of defensively answering Pokemon through Terastallization. Personally I have tried to toe an awkward line when including it in arguments to not ban something because there is a large risk and opportunity cost associated with any Terastallization, which alone speaks volumes to the impact a Pokemon may be having if it forces this. However, it is a perfectly valid and understandable method of counterplay that we see used purposefully for specific threats, so some value and credit must be assigned as well. I think this is one of the best, but also most scary, parts of teambuilding and suspect arguments this generation.

Not to start nor to predict anything, but if the inevitable second tera suspect arrives and people call for a no ban again, then this could lead to an overall tiering debate about redefining what broken, I would love to participate on that one, but I'm a guy with no shiny badges, no bitches and no points in smog tour, so I'll only watch, still, sounds like a good idea plan for the future

 

[LoseToRU?]

Got reqs. It was hell. Ladder is terrible.

WW isn't OP. I didn't lose to it once.
Outside of sun it's v mid af, and sun is also mid.
WW and Moon are both choice locked so King can clean in it's sleep.
Sun also just loses a huge chunk of it's team to sub wisp hex Pult.

However, consider this:
"Srn: i'll vote ban on anything in a tera meta"
hmmmm good point Srn.

Pro-tera camp wants less pokemon, they voted that way, so let's give them what they want!

 

[Mega Breloom]

My final thoughts before the vote: if WW was released on the first day of SV I would have support a ban, however, it got released on a point where the meta is in certain degree prepared to it naturally so the usual teams doesn't require as much changes to beat it. First of all, sun teams viability has been in a roller coaster this gen, they never have trully fallen of the meta, but their effectivity has been inconsistent but since they were in almost every iteration of the meta the impact of them in teambuilding is there, and was is more relevant is that the players already know the match up very well and the weakness that can be exploited of sun teams. Walking Wake in that sense doesn't change the sun match ups as much, is a strong breaker that can pass walls that its parthers can't, true, but it still another weather abuser which players familiar with gen 9 know how to play around.

Personally I have tried to toe an awkward line when including it in arguments to not ban something because there is a large risk and opportunity cost associated with any Terastallization, which alone speaks volumes to the impact a Pokemon may be having if it forces this. However, it is a perfectly valid and understandable method of counterplay that we see used purposefully for specific threats, so some value and credit must be assigned as well. I think this is one of the best, but also most scary, parts of teambuilding and suspect arguments this generation.

This is another good point, WW typing has the downside of being checked by the most popular tera types since the start of gen 9, yeah, it comes with an opportunity cost but at the same time most teams were going to use those tera types anyway and Wake doesn't force stuff just for it like Espharta did with tera dark for example. As Finch said, if we can use tera as an argumment for offensive mons passing its checks we also can use it for defensive mons doing the same.

 

[veti]

know 2 tapus who are going to give that thing grief.

Tapus haven't ever been confirmed for DLC let alone home.

 

[jackuzzler]

A lot of the people who posted in this thread, mostly on the pro-ban side, haven't even made suspect reqs yet, and the deadline is tomorrow. We will see one way or the other, but I anticipate this will be one of the more controversial suspects regardless of the results.

I get that a lot of the pro-ban arguments are from people who haven't got suspect reqs but pointing that out isn't contributing to the conversation at all, they're allowed to post and unless they're spreading false information and there is a reason they aren't allowed to vote. Many new players (including myself recently) have been on that side of the coin, so as long as they aren't actively causing harm it's not a problem. Also, this isn't at all a shot at you, I just think it's worth a shout in general.

I will however be voting ban -- despite the outcome feeling like it'll result in do not ban, which isn't the end of the world. The adaptations made has made Walking Wake a lot more playable and it's not as oppressive as things like Chi-Yu, Cyclizar, Annihilape were early in our meta. The reason I'm going to be voting ban however is I think is that the solid counterplay that exists is too tera-reliant which in my eyes is an unhealthy byproduct of gen 9. There is a huge risk with tera however, and I think that risk has greatly increased when it has become very very predictable when and what will tera. The reason it is so predictable however, is because wake has *very* few natural checks, so when a team doesn't have one of those natural checks, you can only assume that within the context of that game, they'll be using a defensive tera. This risk with tera becoming so predictable is what balances out this "unhealthy byproduct," which with good team structure with Wake, can absolutely be taken advantage of.

Furthermore stuff like ausma's sub + 3 attacks set is pretty great, in my opinion even underutilized. It takes advantages of a lot of those checks people have been listing. It can sub up on Garganacl and wear it down pretty well, clodsire gets worn down by flamethrower, the list goes on. There are some other interesting sets such as +SpA boosting in sun as opposed to speed, which is a pretty funny and absurd power level, and even though the speed tier is awful it can absolutely blow up teams that are only prepared for +Spe, and it's pretty hard to cover everything. Regardless of the set, it does a fantastic job of wearing down teams, can absolutely sweep teams if their team isn't prepared for the same set (sub + agility or sub + 3 attacks is nasty)

In essence, I think that Warping Wake warps the meta too much, and I disagree with the fact that it isn't a good argument to say it warps the meta. I think invalidating certain team structures in nature is unhealthy, and even if it didn't completely invalidate certain offence structures, the power level feels a little too high in the current meta after playing with Wake for the past few weeks. I understand the do not ban argument however, and there were some very good points, but when it comes down to it, I will be voting ban.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I get that a lot of the pro-ban arguments are from people who haven't got suspect reqs but pointing that out isn't contributing to the conversation at all, they're allowed to post and unless they're spreading false information and there is a reason they aren't allowed to vote. Many new players (including myself recently) have been on that side of the coin, so as long as they aren't actively causing harm it's not a problem. Also, this isn't at all a shot at you, I just think it's worth a shout in general.

I don't think you understood my point. My point was that you can't judge which way the suspect is actually going to go based on which side more people are vocally supporting in this thread, not that people who don't make reqs shouldn't be allowed to post.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

No way in hell am I getting recs but I gotta say this thing has got to go. If you aren't running one of its very few dedicated counters, your opponent can simply let their suicide lead die, send in Wake, then you have to choose which of your 6 Pokémon to sack. Even if you get through Wake the cost for doing so can be game-ending depending on the rest of their team. It doesn't even need Sun to be ridiculous, but a side effect of it becoming even worse in the Sun is every 3 teams on the ladder are Sun teams, which is extremely overcentralizing. Its impact on the metagame is overwhelmingly negative and therefore needs a BAN.

 

[tommytt22]

No way in hell am I getting recs but I gotta say this thing has got to go. If you aren't running one of its very few dedicated counters, your opponent can simply let their suicide lead die, send in Wake, then you have to choose which of your 6 Pokémon to sack. Even if you get through Wake the cost for doing so can be game-ending depending on the rest of their team. It doesn't even need Sun to be ridiculous, but a side effect of it becoming even worse in the Sun is every 3 teams on the ladder are Sun teams, which is extremely overcentralizing. Its impact on the metagame is overwhelmingly negative and therefore needs a BAN.

In the situation you describe the opponent has a suicide lead which already makes it a 6 on 5 after "simply letting it die". this doesnt even make sense since the lead would be the sun setter and to sack that would be an auto lose for the wake player. The most common play i see is torkoal->eject button hatterene->Wake. walking wake is strong but youre running torkoal and hatterene without an item for the rest of the game just to get ww in safely once. maybe walking wake is better in sun than volcarona, but is that 3 pokemon core better than volc, skelidirge, kingambit? is wake under sun doing more damage than THREE pokemon? because remember it NEEDS those parters to work otherwise its like a B rank pokemon.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

In the situation you describe the opponent has a suicide lead which already makes it a 6 on 5 after "simply letting it die". this doesnt even make sense since the lead would be the sun setter and to sack that would be an auto lose for the wake player. The most common play i see is torkoal->eject button hatterene->Wake. walking wake is strong but youre running torkoal and hatterene without an item for the rest of the game just to get ww in safely once. maybe walking wake is better in sun than volcarona, but is that 3 pokemon core better than volc, skelidirge, kingambit? is wake under sun doing more damage than THREE pokemon? because remember it NEEDS those parters to work otherwise its like a B rank pokemon.

It literally does not need them, it's still ridiculously strong with specs or booster energy and no weather. It one shots anything without defensive investment and as for even the most defensive mons, well...


252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 330-390 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Garganacl: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Forcing full health sacks or forcing Tera just to not get nuked is not healthy

 

[Alternator]

It literally does not need them, it's still ridiculously strong with specs or booster energy and no weather. It one shots anything without defensive investment and as for even the most defensive mons, well...


252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 330-390 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Garganacl: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Forcing full health sacks or forcing Tera just to not get nuked is not healthy

So ban Hydrageon, who hits just as hard without weather?

Wallbreakers breaking walls is not a reason to ban them.