Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[SpritePony]

From my understanding the dislike for Salt Cure is more because it's on Garganacl rather than what the move does, since Garganacl is greater than the sum of it's parts. If Salt Cure was on say, Golem, it wouldn't be as good as it is on Garganacl. Or say that Garganacl didn't get it's ability of Purifying Salt. The combination of Garganacl's stats, ability, and Salt Cure is what makes it (and to an extent Salt Cure) an issue in the eyes of some. Since you can't out-stall it via Toxic, due to it being immune to Status Conditions.

However I do want to say that I think the comparison between Salt Lure and Leech Seed is a little, je ne sais qoi. The fact that Salt Cure does damage when clicking it (and Rock is a good offensive type) and also does increased damage against Waters and Steels (two great defensive types) and has nothing immune to it, it's just, better in many regards (though not all).

Though FWIW I might be wildly incorrect, and if I am I will delete this post.

IMHO, you've hit it right on the nose. The problem with Garg is the kit as a whole, rather than just the small parts of it. Take away Garg's status immunity? Now it get sat on while Toxic'd or put to sleep. Take away its bulk and/or instant recovery? Suddenly, hazards is a viable thing to use to wear it down. Salt Cure gone? Now it lost the ability to apply pressure and is nothing more than a mediocre tank.

 

[7*Red]

Viet's post didn't read as a negative view towards HO. They're just stating a fact about why Orth is OU in the first place. You're reading too much into it, and that's coming from someone who primarily focuses on abusing Screens HO since Gen 5 (s/o to the banned Psychotic)

With that said, the Grimm + Orth screens sequence feels too linear to me for it to be a sustainable Screens HO playstyle. The opportunity cost of burning 1-2 turns to screens (Grimm set + Parting Shot + Orth Shed Tail) AND losing offensive coverage by opting for Orthworm is very high. From a theoretical standpoint, you can overcome this opportunity cost if the other four offensive Pokémon (in any sequence) is enough to fully break most OU threats. We have a decent amount of unhealthy elements in OU itself that makes 4-mon coverage (including edge cases like Ditto and Unaware Pokemon) extremely feasible. These reasons also reinforces my opinion that Shed Tail should be a lower priority action item in terms of OU balancing.

With that said, a lot of my teams that I slapped together are running Hax because there are just too many Unaware Pokémon of varying types. I'm also testing how well Venomoth and Lilligant would work in Screens HO at the OU level. QD + Sleep Powder is a pretty powerful combination IMO, especially since Sleep Powder makes the game more of a 5v5 situation rather than a 6 v 5 (I don't count the Screens setter as a real Pokemon). I'll let you know what I find out from testing

I've personally forgone Screens entirely and I feel like having a dedicated lead with Orthworm in the back often gets more returns. I'd love to see your test results

 

[Moyashi]

Volcanion is currently in NatDex RU and I don't don't think it will be OU

Natdex ladder is notoriously garbage so using that as a way to judge it coming here is a really bad idea. Especially now that it may be the only source of scald, making it actually more important than last gen (where it was already a big part of ou).

I only mean to say that "things as they are now" isn't going to last long. That big Pokemon Channel announcement is coming in just 40 hours and all, and that'll likely have news on when the Home update is. There's a not-insignificant chance that if Garg is suspected literally right now and gets banned after two weeks and a vote, that post-Garg-pre-Home meta lasts all of a couple weeks and it just comes right back. So, the point being, let's see what's on the horizon before setting the precedent now that Covert Cloak is a response to intrinsically broken stuff.

It doesn't matter how long or short a theoretical post Garganacl meta would last. The point is, we focus on now not what ifs that could come later.

 

[7*Red]

This argument is flawed. You can't say "x move/ability is broken because Orthworm is viable in OU because of it". That's literally the whole point of Pokemon: certain characteristics of each Pokémon dictate their strength relative to other Pokemon. It has the same contrived flavor of "without Drizzle, Pelipper is an un-mon. Therefore, Drizzle is broken". Brokenness and unhealthiness are determined by the amount of healthy counterplay in the metagame.

Baton Pass was unhealthy in most forms because passing boosts allowed for certain Pokémon to completely circumvent their checks & counters through no merit of its own. Swagger + Thunder Wave was broken because you could have your way past counters. Naganadel was broken because NP, typing, and speed tier allow it to dumpster 90%+ of the OU metagame.

What makes Shed Tail different from just a DryPass (Sub, then Baton Pass) is the 50% health drop. This means that most users only have one shot to pass a Sub. Cyclizar overcame yhat cost by having Regenerator. Orthworm not only doesn't have that, but it's also awful to use by itself. With its slow speed, you would either:

1) play very precisely to make sure you set up a scenario where you can ShedPass without taking too much damage
2) run it with Grimm Screens (which is mostly the reason why it's in B-)

Refer to my previous post about why I think Screens + Orth is overrated (TLDR huge opportunity cost of sacrificing an extra breaker/sweeper for Orthworm). Shed Tail isn't as warping as it seems, and Orth only fits in very specific team compositions where the downsides of Orth are mitigated. Even then, there's enough counterplay that can invalidate an Orth from ShedPassing.

EDIT: As an addendum to the Cyclizar vs. Orthworm point, I think Shed Tail's functionality is different between the two. The purpose of Cyclizar's substitute was to get threatening sweepers in safely without taking any damage whatsoever and not to have them sit behind a Sub and stat boost. This action was possible because of Cyclizar's high speed and Regenerator. Orthworm rarely gets those opportunities, and its Sub is not nearly big enough (base 70 HP a.k.a. 86 HP Substitute) to stop neutral and even some NVE moves from breaking it against the frailer recipient.

I wish everyone could read this

 

[Soiramio3000]

View attachment 495014

View attachment 495015
(Hi, first time poster, long time lurker (since like early gen6). I have no idea if this is a viable lure, but I thought this was treading the line of "Theorymoning" enough to post)

I don't think that this would be a good idea to max out skelledigre's special attack.
it needs to stay alive in order to deal damage.

 

[Soiramio3000]

do you people think that rilaboom will manage to stay in OU now that it lost its priority stab?
I see it dropping to UU but it will always have a niche due to its ability.

I think that gamefreak has regretted making terrain summoning abilities.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

The reason why Garganacl is asinine is because of its access to block and curse. Block allows you to trap the target, and if you wall it, it’s unlimited free turns. Curse allows it to exploit on the free turns from block. And Tera helps it wall many Pokémon. For example, if the opponent sends out great tusk, I would Tera flying, block it and curse 6 times before salt curing great tusk. Another example: You Tera ground and block a rotom-w switch in, you PP stall their hydro pumps then curse to +6 and salt cure it. It can choose its Tera to choose what mons to turn into free turns.

 

[Magcargo]

Can someone exactly explain to me how Salt Cure is considered broken but Leech Seed which we have for 25 years to deal with was never considered overpowered?

Grass-types have built in immunity to Leech Seed + various other Pokemon are immune to it like Gholdengo, Magic Bounce users, etc. Toxic had similar counterplay, where Magic Guard, Steel-, and Poison-types were immune to it, though if I'm being honest, I don't think Toxic was a good part of the game either since it was permanent (even if the opponent switched out) and let Pokemon like Heatran and Landorus-T break past through their answers (esp in Heatran's case where Toxic and Magma Storm damage added up and let it just break past answers like defensive Slowking). I know that I at least didn't really use many Pokemon like Dragonite as answers to these Pokemon since it would just get Toxic'd it and worn it down to the point where it couldn't really do its job.

Nothing is immune to Salt Cure barring random Covert Cloak and sub users, making playing around it a lot more tricky without running a niche item. Also, there aren't any real Magic Guard users so the counterplay most of the time is to just slap sub or Covert Cloak on random Pokemon despite being fairly useless otherwise, though I will say that Sub Dirge is a good Pokemon and scary threat to face. Its not too disimilar to random Pokemon using Shed Shell to escape Dugtrio trapping.

The reason why Garganacl is asinine is because of its access to block and curse. Block allows you to trap the target, and if you wall it, it’s unlimited free turns. Curse allows it to exploit on the free turns from block. And Tera helps it wall many Pokémon. For example, if the opponent sends out great tusk, I would Tera flying, block it and curse 6 times before salt curing great tusk. Another example: You Tera ground and block a rotom-w switch in, you PP stall their hydro pumps then curse to +6 and salt cure it. It can choose its Tera to choose what mons to turn into free turns.

Might have a bit of 4MSS there since between Curse / Salt Cure / Block, you'll have to choose between EQ or Recover, which isn't ideal. Probably an effective set, but might be a bit hard to fit in everything you want.

 

[jackuzzler]

I genuinely don't believe Garganacl is currently in a state where it requires action and I definitely don't think it will need action after home.

Garganacl is extremely weak to trick, and there are so many good trick users in the meta that are viable rn, (rotom, gholdengo, greninja, meowscarada even). Some Covert Cloak mons are also completely able to counter it, Amoonguss is in my opinion the best counter in the meta and is also a great defensive option anyway.

Tera makes it difficult to deal with, but mons like Amoonguss deal with it's two most common tera types (water, fairy) extremely effectively. I think flying is probably the best tera type right now, it makes it frustrating for common opposing checks, (tusk, amoonguss etc). But no matter the tera garganacl loses if it gets tricked, pretty much.

You Tera ground and block a rotom-w switch in, you PP stall their hydro pumps then curse to +6 and salt cure it. It can choose its Tera to choose what mons to turn into free turns.

idk who is hard switching rotom-wash into garganacl LOL, but to address the rest of that post, Block tera type is just matchup fishing. It kind of reminds me of Volcarona, Block Garganacl Ground Tera for example is an insane matchup fish mon.

As previously mentioned Block Garganacl also needs to give up a valuable move slot. take this moveset for example:
- Salt Cure
- Earthquake
- Block
- Recover
to run curse you need to get rid of earthquake or recover, and you're never removing recover.

IMO block garganacl is sort of a matchup fish gimmick, stealth rock and ironpress are both very reliable sets, but both are very easily dented by trick, sub users, and covert cloak. It's definitely annoying, but not at all unmanageable and I've personally never had a problem dealing with any garganacl set. I do agree it restricts team building options however, but I don't think running a trick mon, slapping sub on something, or running covert cloak on amoonguss is nearly as restricting as for example Chien-Pao, where it had 3 or 4 reliable checks, all of which would have been nearly zero usage in OU without Pao.

In conclusion, I don't think Garganacl is as bad as people would like to think right now, and I think it's a nice splashable mon that is able to force forward progress and I generally think that it's ok in this meta.

 

[Verdas]

This isn't about Garganacl, but rather Dragapult. How do you guys feel about Sub DD Pult rn? Imo it can do really well into lots of structures that rely on Garg as their Pult answer, and can often open tons of holes for stuff like Volcarona. If you look at a lot of common tour archetypes like rain and tusk bulky offense, pult puts in so much work, and teams are already generally weak to pult since the only fairies in the format are hatt valiant and azu (grimm too, but that's more screens specific), none of which besides av azu is a check to pult, meaning teams do often have to rely on bulky midground mons like pex or garg rather than any actual dedicated check. Then again I'm only 1500 on ladder, so I'm probably missing something.

 

[SciWiz373]

I don't think that this would be a good idea to max out skelledigre's special attack.
it needs to stay alive in order to deal damage.

Hi Soiramio3000, there is surely a way to optimize this, but as I stated I'm more of someone who enjoys reading this forum more than playing matches. This image is entirely just a meme-way of showing a theorycrafted lure, so not the fact that "it might not be a good idea" is sort of wishywashy, since lures typically give up one aspect of a kit to beat their hard counters, IE HP Ground Skarmory in Gen3.

But since you seem to be someone who often plays matches, feel free to try offensive Skeledirge out for yourself to see if it works or not! :)

 

[jackuzzler]

This isn't about Garganacl, but rather Dragapult. How do you guys feel about Sub DD Pult rn? Imo it can do really well into lots of structures that rely on Garg as their Pult answer, and can often open tons of holes for stuff like Volcarona. If you look at a lot of common tour archetypes like rain and tusk bulky offense, pult puts in so much work, and teams are already generally weak to pult since the only fairies in the format are hatt valiant and azu (grimm too, but that's more screens specific), none of which besides av azu is a check to pult, meaning teams do often have to rely on bulky midground mons like pex or garg rather than any actual dedicated check. Then again I'm only 1500 on ladder, so I'm probably missing something.

I like sub pult a lot, but I also really like banded pult. It can do insane damage, and still dent garganacl and 0HKO things it otherwise couldn't.

(Dragapult) @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

The adaptability STAB boost on ghost tera blast is insane and breaks through things it really has absolute no business breaking through, that the specs set just couldn't. especially in a post chien-pao world, it has an insane offensive capability, with access to priority and u-turn.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 332-392 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (if its not bulky bye bye volcarona)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 294-348 (101.7 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assuming not scarf, or booster, recommended to have a switch in in case of scarf/booster)

It also has some decent surprise factor, since a lot of people expect specs pult while some common switch ins to specs pult gets dented quite a bit harder by banded.

overall, physical pult (both sub dd and band) is imo a top 5 offensive mon in this meta right now.

 

[awyp]

This isn't about Garganacl, but rather Dragapult. How do you guys feel about Sub DD Pult rn? Imo it can do really well into lots of structures that rely on Garg as their Pult answer, and can often open tons of holes for stuff like Volcarona. If you look at a lot of common tour archetypes like rain and tusk bulky offense, pult puts in so much work, and teams are already generally weak to pult since the only fairies in the format are hatt valiant and azu (grimm too, but that's more screens specific), none of which besides av azu is a check to pult, meaning teams do often have to rely on bulky midground mons like pex or garg rather than any actual dedicated check. Then again I'm only 1500 on ladder, so I'm probably missing something.

I've used that DD Pult set since December and it was made for the the non-curse Nacl sets, there wasn't much Nacl could do because it would get PP stalled with it's Salt Cures thanks to Phantom Force + Substitute. Outside of Garg it's just a a really cool tech (Sub DD Pult is underrated), you just have to clear out Dondozo, Skele, Corvi (Iron Defense), Bulk Up Tusk and other common walls before letting it out.

 

[SpritePony]

I don't think that this would be a good idea to max out skelledigre's special attack.
it needs to stay alive in order to deal damage.

I am living proof that this is false. If you know how to actually play the Skeledirge, maxing Special Attack works just fine. My Dirge is Sub 3 Attacks with Max SpAtk and it puts in one hell of a lot of work for me.

This isn't about Garganacl, but rather Dragapult. How do you guys feel about Sub DD Pult rn? Imo it can do really well into lots of structures that rely on Garg as their Pult answer, and can often open tons of holes for stuff like Volcarona. If you look at a lot of common tour archetypes like rain and tusk bulky offense, pult puts in so much work, and teams are already generally weak to pult since the only fairies in the format are hatt valiant and azu (grimm too, but that's more screens specific), none of which besides av azu is a check to pult, meaning teams do often have to rely on bulky midground mons like pex or garg rather than any actual dedicated check. Then again I'm only 1500 on ladder, so I'm probably missing something.

I feel like Pult as a whole, not just Sub DD, is kind of a problematic thing. Of course, this is just my opinion here, not saying it as a "matter of fact" type of thing. Pult is the most unpredictable thing in the game right now, as it has many, MANY sets that work. Screens, Sub DD, Specs, Band, Expert Belt Mix... It's so hard to properly scout and figure out which kind of a Pult it is without either being heavily dented on an attempted scout, or losing a Pokemon outright. If it's Specs and you predict Band, your tank is basically dead now. Vice versa for it being Band and you predict Specs... And if its mix, well... God help you.
I really REALLY do not like Pult. It's so damn hard to play around. It's also the fastest thing in the tier, barring Scarf mons.

Hi Soiramio3000, there is surely a way to optimize this, but as I stated I'm more of someone who enjoys reading this forum more than playing matches. This image is entirely just a meme-way of showing a theorycrafted lure, so not the fact that "it might not be a good idea" is sort of wishywashy, since lures typically give up one aspect of a kit to beat their hard counters, IE HP Ground Skarmory in Gen3.

But since you seem to be someone who often plays matches, feel free to try offensive Skeledirge out for yourself to see if it works or not! :)

Offensive Dirge works, lol.

 

[Red Raven]

Can someone exactly explain to me how Salt Cure is considered broken but Leech Seed which we have for 25 years to deal with was never considered overpowered?

Because instead of curing salt like its name says, it only makes people even saltier. That's the biggest reason

In all seriousness, I wanna add something to what the others have said. That is you can block leech seed, namely with grass types, and stop it all together using taunt. Neither of those methods works against salt cure because nothing blocks it, we don't have a certain blob that ignores all indirect damage, and taunt doesn't even work because salt cure is an attacking move

From my understanding the dislike for Salt Cure is more because it's on Garganacl rather than what the move does, since Garganacl is greater than the sum of it's parts. If Salt Cure was on say, Golem, it wouldn't be as good as it is on Garganacl. Or say that Garganacl didn't get it's ability of Purifying Salt. The combination of Garganacl's stats, ability, and Salt Cure is what makes it (and to an extent Salt Cure) an issue in the eyes of some. Since you can't out-stall it via Toxic, due to it being immune to Status Conditions.

Exactly this. I believe Garganacl is the only one with salt cure and if there were more mons that can use the move, nobody would probably complain that much but given that the Monolith is the only one with the move and has like several dozen more qualities that makes it very obnoxious, salt cure just gets part of the blame

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Neat tech of questionable value: Tera Blast takes into account stat drops when determining if it is physical or special. So that means if you use Intimidate and the opponent's SPA is at least 66.7% of its ATK stat then Tera Blast becomes special! Maybe someone could find a use for this? idk maybe using Draco Meteor to lure a special wall or something.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1809639592

 

[SpritePony]

Neat tech of questionable value: Tera Blast takes into account stat drops when determining if it is physical or special. So that means if you use Intimidate and the opponent's SPA is at least 66.7% of its ATK stat then Tera Blast becomes special! Maybe someone could find a use for this? idk maybe using Draco Meteor to lure a special wall or something.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1809639592

Well, considering how unfavorable Tera Blast seems to be, especially on Physical mons, I don't see this being a reliable thing. The only two mons I can think of that are phys-based that actually WANT to make use of it are Pult and Gambit. Even then, Gambit has 4MSS out the wazoo lol.

 

[mothra_moth]

I believe Garganacl is the only one with salt cure

If we wanna get technical....


This thing with an eviolite has some respectable bulk, despite losing on leftovers, block, and being prone to Knock Off. I think in the case of a Garg suspect, I think Naclstack stocks would rise.

 

[awyp]

If we wanna get technical....

View attachment 495284
This thing with an eviolite has some respectable bulk, despite losing on leftovers, block, and being prone to Knock Off. I think in the case of a Garg suspect, I think Naclstack stocks would rise.

No shot, I doubt it, Knock Off would be way easier now and more crucial on the opposing end. I don't think Naclstack is viable it's like during Gen 5 when Dugtrio was banned and then Diglett started being used...and then they just banned Arena Trap altogether.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Thank you all for the great response, my greatest take away is the Statement that the sum of Garganacl, its stats ability and salt cure, is the problem, not a move like leech seed is op. Otherwise the pre-evolution would be OU Diglett style with Arena Trap.

Although to be honest I would wait until Home drops for Garg action. I think Garg not being able to get past magic guard is kinda saucy. Also I like metagames where a slow threat is op rather than a speedy one.

 

[Red Raven]

Although to be honest I would wait until Home drops for Garg action. I think Garg not being able to get past magic guard is kinda saucy. Also I like metagames where a slow threat is op rather than a speedy one.

Are we even getting any magic guard mons? I thought Clef and Reuniclus won't be in the Home connectivity

 

[Lectrys]

Are we even getting any magic guard mons? I thought Clef and Reuniclus won't be in the Home connectivity

We're not getting any Magic Guard mons with Home.

 

[SciWiz373]

Thank you all for the great response, my greatest take away is the Statement that the sum of Garganacl, its stats ability and salt cure, is the problem, not a move like leech seed is op. Otherwise the pre-evolution would be OU Diglett style with Arena Trap.

Although to be honest I would wait until Home drops for Garg action. I think Garg not being able to get past magic guard is kinda saucy. Also I like metagames where a slow threat is op rather than a speedy one.

To my knowledge the expectancy is for them to reveal when Home is returning today yes? Nothing flat out confirmed that they will, just the instinct of humans to try and make patterns of stuff?

Honestly I would prefer the hypothetical of no transfer moves, the lack of toxic/scald/knock has made this meta quite different from the previous 3 gens and I love it. (From a viewer's perspective, of course)

Edit: whoops I replied to the wrong post, I don't know how to change that in an edit, apologies.

 

[grizord]

They're here!!!!!

 

[taziathegreat]

So no exact date on home still

Two new Pokémon

and hisui zoroack early ?

Basically we should continue to move like Home is two months out from this point on