Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Monster Mash

[bdt2002]

I'm seeing plenty of posts argue that Melmetal shouldn't be banned because they fear that other things would become broken if it were gone. Frankly this is a non-argument and should be avoided.

1. You cannot predict the future, even if you think so. If Melmetal were to be banned, the most likely result is that other Steel-types would rise in usage to fill Melmetal's niches. You cannot accurately predict how the metagame will evolve from there.

2. Even if certain elements of the metagame become unbalanced with Melmetal gone, then those elements will be suspect tested as well. This tier will continue to exist and be played past the end of the generation (and if you pretend that it won't, why do you care anyway?) and will still see tiering action then if necessary. Broken checking broken is not a valid argument.

This is also stated in the suspect test rules in the OP, please read it as it only takes a couple minutes and avoids hours of poor argumentation.

I understand this ideology, but I think at the same time we can look at the prior knowledge we do have alongside some number crunching. Is this a non-factor for the current suspect test? Definitely. I think the bigger issue here is that, while community surveys are a good start, there’s usually a group of higher-ups who make the decisions for a massive player base that, whether we like it or not, consists mostly of more casual players like myself. My point is, a Melmetal ban would need to take into account the activity levels of the metagame at all levels, not just the top. Feel free to disagree with me on this, but I don’t think a potential metagame full of Weavile spam is a good thing. Just look at what happened to BDSP OU…

All of this being said, Melmetal’s ability to do so much in spite of how much counterplay it does have is still concerning to me. I think what other users are trying to say here isn’t about these other potential suspects: rather, it’s about the fact that if Melmetal’s checks were gone, Melmetal itself would be broken as opposed to not.

 

[IAMLEGENDhalo]

I just wanted to post my brief thoughts. While I believe Melmetal to be an excellent mon capable of technically 1v1ing just about any other mon a lack of reliable recovery holds it back. It can definitely abuse its massive bulk to switch into dangerous threats and 1v1 them but it really can't do that a lot. Leftovers are great but Melmetal is really missing other items like Protective Pads by running it. Assault Vest is great but having to switch into strong attackers multiple times in a game just isn't feasible like mons with reliable recovery can. And I should say it absolutely needs to abuse its bulk with its exceptionally low base speed. Hope this came together as something cohesive lol

TLDR: Do not ban Melmetal

 

[The Funky Reason]

Thank you, OU Council member and forum moderator viol and bass for copypasting suspect thread policy and repeating an existing auth post. Much needed.

Shitting on an OU mod for "copy and pasting" when clearly people don't understand lmao. I think it is because well known players used the broken checks broken argument people are okay with it. The generation ending argument is also just saying nothing. Why waste your time with saying nothing? Just say nothing.

Storm Zone's post is overall fairly low quality. Though thorough, he makes not only the broken checks broken argument, but also contradicts himself throughout the post. He starts by saying that there are so many ridiculous offensive mons checked by melm like lele, kart, and weavile and that melm is keeping these from being broken, but then says without melm breaking for the tier it will be ¿¿¿¿dominated by impossible to break defensive cores???? Like melm is preventing several breakers from being broken but also will make cores impossible to break??? But people just ate that shit up. At least when the one guy that said he is top tier since gen 5 (but not in rank, known for his unique sets) people noticed how bad his reasoning was.

I'm on the fence about melmetal myself. To me it feels like a heatran in that it is a great breaker while also being a good defensive piece. Idk if it is broken though.

 

[Xufactor]

2. Even if certain elements of the metagame become unbalanced with Melmetal gone, then those elements will be suspect tested as well. This tier will continue to exist and be played past the end of the generation (and if you pretend that it won't, why do you care anyway?) and will still see tiering action then if necessary. Broken checking broken is not a valid argument.

It is kind of awkward to suspect test things for a gen after it has ended. It will be taken less seriously, and the playerbase will be more comprised of players who play for the nostalgia or do not want to move on, and less of people focused on winning. I think people have these thoughts, especially since Melmetal is not definitively broken and has stayed in the metagame for 2 years.

Granted, they should have acknowledged the rule as they break it.

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

With the intent of not repeating others, I want to echo all of Mimi's, ironwater's and Storm Zone's opinions while also talking about Melmetal's mu vs HO.

Mimikyu already mentioned how shell smash teams with Cloyster and Poltea would get better whether you believe those are teams or not that's a different topic. While in general HO doesn't struggle to "break" Melmetal, it definitely is an odd pokemon to play against since barely any attacks in the tier straight up OHKO it. Thus the Melmetal user can choose to either trade health for a kill while also not letting the next pokemon set up, or straight up switch out and do the same thing later in the game. Just for reference consider HOs staples that can hit Melm super effectively with it's stabs such as Leftis/Roseli/Lum Garchomp, Air Balloon Blaziken, Choice Scarf Blacephalon, all of which tend to have other roles on the HO team, yet can be easily forced to trade (and lose) vs Melmetal. Other examples in CC Zeraora, Flame Celesteela, Eq Dragonite have the same issues.

I would thus like to mention some conventional HO picks that can help you deal with Melmetal if you find yourself struggling as I prev was.

• Will-O-Wisp Lead Melmetal can limit no Will-o Mew to 2 or even 1 hazard while staying at full health, which is why it's a common lead vs Mew HOs. Will-O Mew helps to permanently ruin Melmetal (as much as it can be) for the rest of the game. This is far from an "only for Melmetal" move as it also helps vs Rillaboom, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Urshifu, Bisharp and Weavile all of which are common leads vs Mew.
• Flame Body Stealth Rock Same idea as above.
• Roost SD While it has to be worry of TWave or Acid Armor Melmetal, it can take the Assault Vest and Toxic variants as set up fodder.
• Despite Balloon and Leftovers increasing popularity, Life Orb is still an insanely strong option that lets Blaziken actually play a "50-50" of SD or CC/Flare Blitz vs Melmetal.
• Particularly the Substitute and Life Orb variants that have been seeing a bit of usage on ladder.

I got reqs with this triple ice HO that I've been spamming on ladder for the last couple of weeks. It may sound odd but my biggest issue with Melm a few weeks ago was precisely its mu vs HO as I don't like many of the interactions it forces. I can say for sure though that I will be voting no ban.

Ty for reading and gl to everyone getting reqs c:

 

[BT89]

666th post.

Melmetal is fine.

The current iteration of Melmetal is more inherently flawed than most of the previous Pokemon we have suspected. While there isn’t any single bonafide counter to all Melmetal variants, every set has at least a few checks. 3 Attack sets can be scouted by Pokemon like Zapdos, and can generally be either defensively handled by Regenerator core with Pokemon like Toxapex, Corviknight, or Tangrowth. Yes, while it matches up well against a lot of playstyles, it doesn’t just end games immediately in these playstyles. Sure, while it can 1v1 pretty much any Pokemon in the tier depending on the moveset, that’s the thing - depending on the moveset. Melmetal generally doesn’t get all the coverage it wants in 3 or 2 slots (For TWave/Protect 3 Atks and ToxTect respectively), giving leeway for multiple checks such as Toxapex versus non-Earthquake sets, Zapdos versus non-Ice Punch sets, among various others. Also, it isn’t like not having a true counter to a Pokemon necessarily calls for it being broken. Tapu Lele is a Pokemon that is both faster and (with Specs) stronger than Melmetal that also doesn’t truly have much in terms of defensive counterplay. However, it isn’t even brought up in terms of being suspected due to each Lele set having flaws that end up rather easy to abuse.

Additionally, Melmetal is relatively easy to chip down. With Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Air Balloon Heatran being top tier meta presences as well as decent checks to some Melmetal variants, the latter being able to deal absolutely major damage to it, Spikes and Stealth Rock are impossible not to come by in this metagame, and they are perhaps Melmetal’s greatest bane,

Melmetal is also a major contributing factor to the tier. As a defensive mon, it is an absolute staple on a variety of playstyles, and is likely the second best Steel-type in the meta (Heatran moment). Melmetal’s defensive attributes are absolutely excellent, and are worth keeping in the tier. Removing Melmetal means removing means of counterplay to Pokemon previously mentioned (Dragapult, Cloyster, Hyper Offense in general becomes very tedious to check without Melmetal).

Overall, despite aspects of Melmetal being able to be seen as broken or busted, Melmetal overall is a positive presence to the tier that provides a strong check to many relevant Pokemon while also not being too much to handle. Keep Melmetal.

Edit - Also, you can’t really use the logic of “don’t worry of what the meta looks like after X is banned” with Melmetal, as is it a much more defensive presence than prior suspects, and in general is more notable for its defensive aspects. You do have to take into effect the impact the removal of this defensively oriented threat has on the meta, as Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Corviknight are unable to really replicate the defensive niche that Melmetal generally tends to fulfill for many offensive teams.

 

[Fardin]

I'm seeing plenty of posts argue that Melmetal shouldn't be banned because they fear that other things would become broken if it were gone. Frankly this is a non-argument and should be avoided.

1. You cannot predict the future, even if you think so. If Melmetal were to be banned, the most likely result is that other Steel-types would rise in usage to fill Melmetal's niches. You cannot accurately predict how the metagame will evolve from there.

2. Even if certain elements of the metagame become unbalanced with Melmetal gone, then those elements will be suspect tested as well. This tier will continue to exist and be played past the end of the generation (and if you pretend that it won't, why do you care anyway?) and will still see tiering action then if necessary. Broken checking broken is not a valid argument.

This is also stated in the suspect test rules in the OP, please read it as it only takes a couple minutes and avoids hours of poor argumentation.

u say this but there should be a clear exception for end of the gen suspects.

there is a reason we saw no bans in oras or sm once they were done, and only bans in past gens were sleep, dugtrio or gems that were obviously broken/not competitive. this wasnt because those tiers were magically just perfect right at the end of gen, but because any suspect would need an extraordinary support from a playerbase that doesn't care enough about it anymore. they are all settled for what was already working okay, and ss should probably do the same for melmetal that has a realistically big change in the tier if it goes away that could make things much worse.

 

[FJ2K]

Played a ton of Gen 8, and the current meta has been by far the best of the gen imo. I'm opposed to the Melmetal ban. I think Stormzone's post already did a good summary of what Melmetal is good and the roles it fills so I'm gonna keep my post brief . So what I want to ask is, what is the goal of banning Melmetal?
I don't see how it would be good for team and Mon selection diversity ; the absence of Melmetal would result in further centralization towards the tiers top threats. Lele, Clefable, and Weavile usage would surge up hard. Would that make the meta more "balanced" or more fun? I don't see how it would.
Melmetal is at most annoying, it's not close to being broken and doesn't solo win games. I don't think it should be banned at all.

 

[Perish Song]

Some very valid concerns.

Hello, wanted to talk about 1-2 points that I hope I can relieve your concerns.

I think the bigger issue here is that, while community surveys are a good start, there’s usually a group of higher-ups who make the decisions for a massive player base that, whether we like it or not, consists mostly of more casual players like myself.

I tend to believe this is absolutely necessary and its a good thing that not everybody is involved in decision making for smogon tiers as a whole. When you think about it, people may have different agendas and bias, such as;

- Legendary haters who vote ban even though they dont play the tier.
- Unqualified people who cant get out of 1300 elo on ladder.
- The group of people who adamantly refuse to use specific set of Pokemon ( you may think of them as "ban landorus" community)
- People who are tired of dealing with Melmetal in teambuilder so they just vote for the sake of comfort.
- Misinformed people who have only played this tier casually so they dont have relevant metagame knowledge.
- People who worship chaos.
- Etc.

You may ask does this bias not apply to qualified voters, it absolutely does. But then again we can argue how a qualified user's opinions are likely more valid than someone who only plays on average level.

My point is, a Melmetal ban would need to take into account the activity levels of the metagame at all levels, not just the top. Feel free to disagree with me on this, but I don’t think a potential metagame full of Weavile spam is a good thing. Just look at what happened to BDSP OU…

I also believe that this already factors the activity at all levels, considering the parameters that apply to Melmetal on top levels are still valid on low levels. Its still the same Pokemon with same qualities that will have same/similar team support and possible to suggest people will have same or similar reaction towards it. Survey is another way to verify this as they've shared gathered intel from both qualified and unqualified players, and you can see that the reactions are not too far from eachother. (Of course they dont always match)

As for second part, its too soon to talk about or predict the future. If Melmetal is gone, questions can be raised whether Weavile or any other Pokemon is now too much to handle or not. Proper tiering action will be taken then. Going to drop this subforum as a reference, you can see that suspects and discussions still happen even for our oldest generations and metagames.

All of this being said, Melmetal’s ability to do so much in spite of how much counterplay it does have is still concerning to me. I think what other users are trying to say here isn’t about these other potential suspects: rather, it’s about the fact that if Melmetal’s checks were gone, Melmetal itself would be broken as opposed to not.

If you think its a concern you should just ladder, get requirements and vote ban. As for second part, this shouldnt even be a point of argument since the whole goal of this suspect is what Melmetal can do with the tools and team support it gets, rather than what could Melmetal to if its checks were gone somehow.


Hope this helps, and have a fun suspect y'all.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I am leaning to the side of ban. While it's true that Melmetal is slow and lacks longevity, it is so incredibly good at forcing progress against any team. Nothing that checks it likes to take both Toxic and Thunder Wave, and prediction of what it's running is a lot harder than it looks. Getting your Zapdos Toxiced or your Pex or Corv TWaved is really significant, and Melmetal can go for a predict like that every time it comes in at minimal cost. Or it can run Assault Vest to tank things it has no business shrugging off, like turning Specs Pult's Flamethrower into a 3HKO. Or it can run Adamant and Band to 2HKO Zapdos and OHKO a bunch of random neutral targets like Tapu Fini. Until you figure out what it's running you have to blindly guess which of the triad of Toxic, TWave, DIB it'll be throwing at you, and even on resisted targets a Double Iron Bash will do a lot. Ferrothorn for example can be broken through with Protective Pads and repeated pressure, especially with paraflinch RNG in the mix.

On the other hand, it can be hard finding opportunities to come in safely. A lot of things it can muscle past with status moves or flinches can burn it with Scald or paralyze it with Thunder Wave or lucky rolls on Discharge. And repeated assaults from things like Pult's Shadow Balls or Glowking's Flamethrowers can really take their toll on Melmetal and leave it unable to force switches. Still, I believe its sheer power with Double Iron Bash, huge physical bulk, even better special bulk if running Vest, and dual statuses to potentially punish any check make it overall too restrictive to deal with. I may change my mind though, it’s very borderline.

 

[shawk*+:)]

Melmetal reminds me a lot of another pokemon, that being ADV Salamence. ADV Mence and Melm both have impressive offensive stats coupled with a fantastic movepool. Both have amazing as well as defensive utility in the form of their resistant latent typing, and in Salamence's case: Intimidate. Like Melmetal, once Salamence comes in on the field, NOTHING safely switches into it. This is mainly because Salamence runs a large number of effective sets, even the ones that have "fallen off" can still cleave teams that aren't ready. However, it isn't "unhealthy" on the metagame as a whole because something that both Melm and Mence share is that once the set is revealed, they have their corresponding checks. But unlike Salamence, a lot of people have said that Melmetal can bust through all of its checks. Straying away from the Salamence example and continuing from the point of "Melmetal can bust through all of its checks" It should also be made apparent that, IMHO, Melm lowkey has four moveslot syndrome, It can't really slot every move it wants it to in order to beat the checks it wants to.

Granted I could be wrong with alot of stuff that I've said, but I personally do not think Melmetal should not be banned.

 

[shawk*+:)]

I am leaning to the side of ban. While it's true that Melmetal is slow and lacks longevity, it is so incredibly good at forcing progress against any team. Nothing that checks it likes to take both Toxic and Thunder Wave, and prediction of what it's running is a lot harder than it looks. Getting your Zapdos Toxiced or your Pex or Corv TWaved is really significant, and Melmetal can go for a predict like that every time it comes in at minimal cost. Or it can run Assault Vest to tank things it has no business shrugging off, like turning Specs Pult's Flamethrower into a 3HKO. Or it can run Adamant and Band to 2HKO Zapdos and OHKO a bunch of random neutral targets like Tapu Fini. Until you figure out what it's running you have to blindly guess which of the triad of Toxic, TWave, DIB it'll be throwing at you, and even on resisted targets a Double Iron Bash will do a lot. Ferrothorn for example can be broken through with Protective Pads and repeated pressure, especially with paraflinch RNG in the mix.

On the other hand, it can be hard finding opportunities to come in safely. A lot of things it can muscle past with status moves or flinches can burn it with Scald or paralyze it with Thunder Wave or lucky rolls on Discharge. And repeated assaults from things like Pult's Shadow Balls or Glowking's Flamethrowers can really take their toll on Melmetal and leave it unable to force switches. Still, I believe its sheer power with Double Iron Bash, huge physical bulk, even better special bulk if running Vest, and dual statuses to potentially punish any check make it overall too restrictive to deal with. I may change my mind during qualifying though.

In my opinion, nearly all of the sets that you've mentioned hate getting their item removed and can't really switch into a "Melmetal Weak" pokemon. The two examples you listed being: Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn can effectively run Knock Off and get rid of Melm's item, which can neuter its potential throughout the game. I'd argue that Melm has to be careful when switching into Clef that much bc alot of them are running Knock Off.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

IMHO, Melm lowkey has four moveslot syndrome, It can't really slot every move it wants it to in order to beat the checks it wants to.

Every single time a versatile Pokemon is suspected, 4MSS gets brought up as a reason for why it's not as strong as people say it is.

In a video explaining why Elena is so strong in Ultra Street Fighter 4, Bafael makes a point that I feel has a lot of parallels to suspect discussion:

The only real weakness she had was a reliance on meter. [...] But reliance on meter is the most pretend weakness ever. It wasn't that Elena needed meter or else she didn't work. Instead, it was Elena having so many great ways of spending meter between her great EX moves and FADCs that it was hard to choose which ones you wanted.

I have no stake in this suspect, nor the meta knowledge to justify a stance one way or the other, but even I know that trying to argue that versatility is a weakness is just... incorrect.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

Although it has notable drawbacks like low speed and lack of recovery, I am firmly of the opinion that Melmetal should be banned from SS OU.

First of all, Choice Band Melmetal’s Iron Fist boosted Double Iron Bash is extremely difficult to switch into, and with it’s nasty 51% flinch chance, it has decent odds to solo many physically bulky Pokémon on its own. That’s not even mentioning it’s other moves on the same Choice Band set, most notably Thunder Punch and Earthquake. These three moves on their own make Banded Melmetal impossible to safely switch into, as even banded Double Iron Bash puts a great dent into even resists like the most physically defensive Ferrothorn, as shown by this calculation: “252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- approx. 83.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.” A resisted attack doing that much to something as bulky as Ferrothorn is already absurd, but adding on an extra 51% chance to flinch means Melmetal can get past even this Ferrothorn set, but does get chipped hard. Besides, Ferrothorn does not have reliable recovery, so it can get worn down over the course of a game to the point that Melmetal can pick it off. All that is forgetting that Ferrothorn fears banded Melmetal’s last move, Superpower. The only good switches to banded Double Iron Bash are Heatran, which gets turned to dust by Earthquake, Corviknight, who fears Thunder Punch on the switch, and the aforementioned Ferrothorn, which fears Superpower.

All of that is just the Choice Band set on its own. As written in the suspect reasoning, “Assault Vest is a good way to achieve surprising 1v1s like beating Heatran.” As special attacks are always decent ways to beat Melmetal, and with Heatran being arguably the best switch in to banded Double Iron Bash, being able to use Assault Vest to get past Heatran can be a devastating blow to the enemy team, considering Heatran is one of the best Pokémon in the tier. Plus, Assault Vest Melmetal has the added bonus of being able to eat up even a super effective Magma Storm from the most specially offensive Heatran, as shown by this calculation: “252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 228-270 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage.” This is basically saying that after Melmetal shrugs off the super effective Magma Storm, it can fire back with an Earthquake that always OHKOs any common variant of Heatran, and even puts a lot of hurt on the most physically defensive Heatran, “116 Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 296-352 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.”

It’s not like Melmetal is just an offensive menace. On top of its relentless offensive traits, it’s no slouch defensively. The aforementioned Assault Vest set comes to mind, but even without defensive investment, it can still survive an attack as monstrous as Garchomp’s Earthquake: “252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 240-284 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO” Plus, it possesses the Steel typing, which is notorious for being a fantastic defensive type. This gives it many resistances on top of good bulk. These resistances include common attacking types such as Fairy and Dragon. It can also easily spread paralysis with Thunder Wave, or cripple walls and others with Toxic while being immune to Toxic poisoning itself, giving a team decent defensive utility.

An adverse effect banning Melmetal would have is making something like Weavile much, much more difficult to check. However, this is an argument of broken checking broken. And as was stated in the suspect test rules, “If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.” I do agree that banning Melmetal could make something like Weavile potentially banworthy, and that’s why if we need to ban Weavile should Melmetal be banned, we can always do that.


TL;DR: Choice Band is impossible to switch into. It has no true counters, only checks. However, Melmetal is able to get around many of its checks in several ways, namely with Assault Vest. It also provides a team decent defensive utility with it’s notoriously defensive Steel typing, good bulk, and status inducing moves like Toxic and Thunder Wave. Banning it could potentially make something like Weavile broken, but we can always take tiering action against it if need be.

 

[shawk*+:)]

Every single time a versatile Pokemon is suspected, 4MSS gets brought up as a reason for why it's not as strong as people say it is.

In a video explaining why Elena is so strong in Ultra Street Fighter 4, Bafael makes a point that I feel has a lot of parallels to suspect discussion:


I have no stake in this suspect, nor the meta knowledge to justify a stance one way or the other, but even I know that trying to argue that versatility is a weakness is just... incorrect.

Fair point

 

[Moyashi]

Toxapex: again another pokemon made stupid by regenerator, the fact that this pokemon wasnt suspected before melmetal is beyond me, it is forcing powerful ground/psychic/electric attacks to be on every team or a taunt user, all because of its extremely restrictive movepool, tspikes, knock, scald, recover, etc, low risk high reward almost completely killing rain teams and HO.

I'm a bit disappointed to hear this from such an esteemed and creative builder and player, especially given that Toxapex is at an all time low this generation, facing a lot of competition for the role of bulky water type from a ton of pokemon that aren't as big of momentum sinks. Rain also has been better than ever this generation, with specs Volcanion and Crawdaunt being great choices for unwallable breaking power and tools like Zapdos being a terrific choice that compresses offende and defense on such teams.

So as to not to harp on just one comment, there have been a concerning amount of posts from good players that rely on broken checks broken-esque logic as part of their arguments. Listing how it keeps a number of pokemon from being potentialy broken, which as Adem pointed out:

keep in mind, broken checks broken is not supposed to be a thing, if y pokemon is broken after x pokemon is banned, u ban y pokemon as well. other things being more broken / the meta shifting to something that you don't like is also not a reason, you cant fully know what the tier will be like with it gone, and if other mons are broken, then they can be suspected after, neither are reasons to not ban a pokemon

And i agree. We should not ever rely on broken checks broken logic, nor should we theorymon about what may end up more broken without X mon to be around to check it. There have been suggestions that pokemon like Weavile or Clefable being more restrictive. Or even Lele. I've also seen some people claim Melmetal holds these in check, then go on to claim that Melmetal is flawed because even the pokemon it os meant to check can beat it. Which feels... Very contradictory? Not to mention if Melm was really the pin holding back several pokemon from being potentially broken... I am pretty sure that would mean those pokemon are worth looking into on their own. With or without Melm in the tier. There is also concern some sweeper types or playstyles will get better.

Shell Smash Spam
DD Pult + CM Lele
Cosmic Power Clefable
Nasty Plot Torn Stall
Hail/Veil

And as much as I respect the building and playing skill of these players, no one person here can say what a post Melmetal metagame would be like. We certainly have pokemon that are very restrictive in the builder and difficult to handle even in game, but if Melm went and some of these really end up getting more difficult to handle... Well that bridge can be crossed at that time. Tiering action is still a possibility. Which brings me to something else i've seen that bothers me

there is a reason we saw no bans in oras or sm once they were done, and only bans in past gens were sleep, dugtrio or gems that were obviously broken/not competitive. this wasnt because those tiers were magically just perfect right at the end of gen, but because any suspect would need an extraordinary support from a playerbase that doesn't care enough about it anymore. they are all settled for what was already working okay, and ss should probably do the same for melmetal that has a realistically big change in the tier if it goes away that could make things much worse.

It is kind of awkward to suspect test things for a gen after it has ended. It will be taken less seriously, and the playerbase will be more comprised of players who play for the nostalgia or do not want to move on, and less of people focused on winning. I think people have these thoughts, especially since Melmetal is not definitively broken and has stayed in the metagame for 2 years.

An attitude that there wouldn't be tiering action towards issues because it won't be taken as seriously or people won't care. We know for a fact this isn't remotely true. If something is truly a major issue, players will discuss it. Many past gen lower tiers are great examples of this as over the last few years there has been discussions and, when necessary, action on such issues (Conk in ORAS UU as an example). But perhaps the best example is BW OU and its playerbase.

Edit: should have been clear at first. Rain is arguably better than it has been throughout all of gen8 right now, but as is the nature of rain as a style, still isn't the most consistent playstyle.

 

[Xufactor]

Every single time a versatile Pokemon is suspected, 4MSS gets brought up as a reason for why it's not as strong as people say it is.
In a video explaining why Elena is so strong in Ultra Street Fighter 4, Bafael makes a point that I feel has a lot of parallels to suspect discussion:
I have no stake in this suspect, nor the meta knowledge to justify a stance one way or the other, but even I know that trying to argue that versatility is a weakness is just... incorrect.

The reason I would bring up 4MSS is not because I believe that versatility is a weakness or even that 4MSS is a weakness, it's because 4MSS is "holding the mon back" compared to how good people present the mon to be when they say it has little to no counters. You could say it’s a weakness of that kind of argument, but not necessarily a weakness in a vacuum. When people say that Specs Kyurem or Melmetal has no counters because it can run certain coverage moves, they may need to be reminded of this.

 

[Ian_Yo]

Gonna start with I think the meta will be much much worse with melm gone but that shouldn't have an impact on a suspect not their point. The real reason to not ban melm is it's just flat out not broken.

The most problematic parts of it in my opinion are 1. It's trading ability vs offensive teams. 2. It's set variety.
To start with the first point there still remains counterplay in ho a few mons punish it well there and while I relate to the struggle with several hos of my own struggling. The counterplay does exist and it does not need to be that niche.

2. The set variety looking at the individual sets first twave pads imo easily the most individually problematic set it is burdened with lacking the steel utility you expect from it struggling a lot more with splashability. Scouting it can often leave a Mon crippled but once scouted it's lesser longevity can be exploited especially with the things melm wants to check in a game. It's list of answers lots smaller than the others thanks to the best answers being contact punishing Zapdos remains a great answer pex while more hax vulnerable still good if it has helmet and knock and if not can drain dib and paired with another answer does well. Slowbro can threaten a scald burn using it's good bulk; rotom w a very hard answer. It's answers are not exactly struggling either with many rising in usage or remaining high with several others pulling much worse tricks in the meta, looking at you clef, and much less answers least of all good ones.

Toxic protect is lacking the same offensive pressure instead relying on it's longevity this makes it super slappable but not even close to a bannable set it remains threatening but toxic protect ultimately just a good set hardly broken.

Band I find super middling high reward with good prediction but lesser longevity than any others ignoring tr lo and plenty of scouts and solid checks against it.

Av just the same as toxic protect but worse overall.

Past this the main issue is them cumulatively as in scouting left vulnerable to receiving a twave toxic superpower or dib in most cases.
Pex I find the main scout or bro as even in worst case scenarios they aren't punished that hard. With many more scouts that have become much better last couple of months Zapdos rotom w for example no lack of sufficient scouts atm. They may have different answers but the effective scouting that works well on this mon renders this less damning as I don't find them to actually overall be that game ending on wrong predictions or poor set mus on switch. There are other good answers beyond those listed that are not efficient scouts however with sufficient prediction can work too like lando and Ferro, even melm itself.

Btw if not clear against the ban

 

[Lord Xen III]

I'm seeing plenty of posts argue that Melmetal shouldn't be banned because they fear that other things would become broken if it were gone. Frankly this is a non-argument and should be avoided.

1. You cannot predict the future, even if you think so. If Melmetal were to be banned, the most likely result is that other Steel-types would rise in usage to fill Melmetal's niches. You cannot accurately predict how the metagame will evolve from there.

2. Even if certain elements of the metagame become unbalanced with Melmetal gone, then those elements will be suspect tested as well. This tier will continue to exist and be played past the end of the generation (and if you pretend that it won't, why do you care anyway?) and will still see tiering action then if necessary. Broken checking broken is not a valid argument.

This is also stated in the suspect test rules in the OP, please read it as it only takes a couple minutes and avoids hours of poor argumentation.

My concern is mostly a question about bullet point 2. Tiering action does continue after a generation ends but at a slower pace, at least historically. We can't predict the future that is true, but we have seen other tiers suffer for a decade plus after the generation end with action being taken to fix metagame problems happening at a far slower pace against the will of players who adore that tier.

I do think broken checking broken is usually a non-argument but I think concerns about the practicality of post current gen suspects are real if one is for example in the loop about what's been happening in Gen 5 OU where even after several post current gen tiering changes its still in a state that's far from ideal.


So I think the arguments are more so being framed as melmetal isn't something that is so good that banning it now is worth risking the health of the tier for a decade plus to come given the benefits it provides to the metagame, for the reason that while it has no counters and is generally low risk high reward , when referencing the various flaws it has, such as its versatility also being its bane in terms of its 4mss and its low speed and the abundance of checks providing enough counterplay to it in practice.

However , I'll also say that if melmetal is in fact an unhealthy or broken presence in the tier currently , then we obviously, by the same logic I just used , wouldn't want gen 8 OU to become an old gen with an unhealthy element running around if we can help it. But so far I'm of the camp that it doesn't need to go, even if I see pro-ban as a respectable opinion

Melmetal holds these in check, then go on to claim that Melmetal is flawed because even the pokemon it os meant to check can beat it. Which feels... Very contradictory?

The point here is that it's still a solid check to them even if not a counter.

 

[Baloor]

hi, i'm here for my typical suspect thread shenanigans where i post why i dont like other peoples opinion. im currently on the fence about melmetal itself as I think its potentially "too strong" of an option in the tier, im worried about the potential ramifications we could face. My vote is personally going towards what I think is best for the tier as SSOU moves into the Ruins of Alph.

I'm seeing plenty of posts argue that Melmetal shouldn't be banned because they fear that other things would become broken if it were gone. Frankly this is a non-argument and should be avoided.

1. You cannot predict the future, even if you think so. If Melmetal were to be banned, the most likely result is that other Steel-types would rise in usage to fill Melmetal's niches. You cannot accurately predict how the metagame will evolve from there.

2. Even if certain elements of the metagame become unbalanced with Melmetal gone, then those elements will be suspect tested as well. This tier will continue to exist and be played past the end of the generation (and if you pretend that it won't, why do you care anyway?) and will still see tiering action then if necessary. Broken checking broken is not a valid argument.

This is also stated in the suspect test rules in the OP, please read it as it only takes a couple minutes and avoids hours of poor argumentation.

first of all, with all due respect, while the OP does state to avoid "broken checks broken" arguments as they're considered poor, this rule mostly applies in cases when we are at the start or the middle of the generation when we are suspecting mons that are more than likely broken. Things like the Magearna and Urshifu-Dark suspect lead to a few other suspects that likely wouldnt have happened if these two werent so obviously broken in a very unbalanced metagame. In the case we are dealing with here, we are at the end of the generation in a pretty balanced and playable meta. While its not very fun, its playable enough and competitive. Melmetal is something that has stirred up some controversy in the tours scene yes, but this is not a case of a mon being very obviously broken. There is a serious concern to be made about the effects removing a mon like melmetal that soft checks so many of the strong offensive threats in a metagame that is currently balanced enough. We can pretend like if we ban melmetal that the council will be on top of dealing with the potential floodgate, but in the past, support for a tier drastically slows down when we move onto a new generation. I'm not questioning the councils work ethic or anything, just all the focus is rightfully going towards balancing the new games as that's where the interest is. While old gens suspects are happening more nowadays, they're still not very common. My concern stems from taking a metagame that is playable and making a decision that will very obviously cause a big shift in the meta at a point of time where support and interest will drop off. Thinking about the long term and the state of the tier in future tournaments that feature SS as an old gen is a more than valid discussion point. Besides, despite some peoples obsession with bringing up this "broken check broken meta bad" stuff, these metas happen all the time. Look at SM OU and BW OU, these tiers are broken as fuck. But at the end of the day they are playable. While we are making some small adjustments overtime to BW and people were upset with the state SM was left in, the metas are still balanced by "broken checks broken" mentality and have proven to still have competitive games in tours such as SPL. This philosophy isn't as bad some people make it out to be. While avoiding it makes sense from tiering standpoint, in situations like this where we are at the end of the gen with a tier that is by all means playable and competitive, it's fair to make an exception to maintain the integrity of the tier for the future as competitiveness is always the #1 priority.

that said, this being the crutch of your anti ban argument is obviously poor and slightly misinformed.

I'm a bit disappointed to hear this from such an esteemed and creative builder and player, especially given that Toxapex is at an all time low this generation, facing a lot of competition for the role of bulky water type from a ton of pokemon that aren't as big of momentum sinks. Rain also has been better than ever this generation, with specs Volcanion and Crawdaunt being great choices for unwallable breaking power and tools like Zapdos being a terrific choice that compresses offende and defense on such teams.

also wanted to comment on this persons posts as i find it incredibly random. while yes pex is at an all time low this gen, you are really underselling pex's effectiveness. like come on dude, its pex. pex has one of the most annoying move pools to switch into within the entire tier (knock, toxic, scald lol) while also being a incredible pivot, its far from a momentum sink. this rain comment is also super random as it assumes rain is some incredibly dominant force like it is in SM or BW when its really not. Rains usage and winrate is not that high at all. Pex also matches up better into rain then any other water resist in the tier so this just doesnt make any sense.

So as to not to harp on just one comment, there have been a concerning amount of posts from good players that rely on broken checks broken-esque logic as part of their arguments. Listing how it keeps a number of pokemon from being potentialy broken, which as Adem pointed out:

And i agree. We should not ever rely on broken checks broken logic, nor should we theorymon about what may end up more broken without X mon to be around to check it. There have been suggestions that pokemon like Weavile or Clefable being more restrictive. Or even Lele. I've also seen some people claim Melmetal holds these in check, then go on to claim that Melmetal is flawed because even the pokemon it os meant to check can beat it. Which feels... Very contradictory? Not to mention if Melm was really the pin holding back several pokemon from being potentially broken... I am pretty sure that would mean those pokemon are worth looking into on their own. With or without Melm in the tier. There is also concern some sweeper types or playstyles will get better.

And as much as I respect the building and playing skill of these players, no one person here can say what a post Melmetal metagame would be like. We certainly have pokemon that are very restrictive in the builder and difficult to handle even in game, but if Melm went and some of these really end up getting more difficult to handle... Well that bridge can be crossed at that time. Tiering action is still a possibility. Which brings me to something else i've seen that bothers me

Yes, theory-monning is bad and unproductive. But a lot of these posts have nothing to do with theory monning. A lot of mons of concern (clef/lele/pult/weavile/kart) are already dominant presences in the meta, melmetals defensive niche exists to soft check all of these in one slot while offering an insanely strong offensive presence. no other steel type that has a niche in the tier stomachs hits better than melm. while heatran is more of the premier steel type of OU, thats more due to the utility. Melmetal is also one of the only steel types that always run steel STAB. Without a doubt these mons will become way better without melm around, its just common sense. Melm isnt this pin holding back several mons, but losing an incredibly good option in builder will hurt the tier as the niche it offers is incredibly valuable. Especially when the mon is only slightly over the line of broken compared to things in the past. The point here has always been the risk out weighs the reward. As I mentioned in my response to Ruft, moving from a balanced and playable tier into a potential shitshow right as the gen is ending is not ideal due to the history of how slow the tiering process becomes in oldgens, with spl around the corner as well, its something to keep in mind.

An attitude that there wouldn't be tiering action towards issues because it won't be taken as seriously or people won't care. We know for a fact this isn't remotely true. If something is truly a major issue, players will discuss it. Many past gen lower tiers are great examples of this as over the last few years there has been discussions and, when necessary, action on such issues (Conk in ORAS UU as an example). But perhaps the best example is BW OU and its playerbase.

all i have to say to this is. despite various issues in several old gen tiers, consider how long these tiers have been around and how long its taken to address said issues. its not that no tiering action takes place, its that the process is much much slower. considering how important OU tiers are to smogon tournaments (stour/spl), if we open some crazy floodgate the pace that the fixes would be done is too slow to balance the tier for these tournaments.

I felt like playing the devils advocate on this whole "broken checks broken" thing and provide a perspective of why in this case it can be seen as a talking point. Personally, do not know what I'm voting yet as I do think melm can be annoying as fuck but I want to maintain the competitiveness of the tier so I'm still weighing out the negatives and the positives.

 

[Moyashi]

also wanted to comment on this persons posts as i find it incredibly random. while yes pex is at an all time low this gen, you are really underselling pex's effectiveness. like come on dude, its pex. pex has one of the most annoying move pools to switch into within the entire tier (knock, toxic, scald lol) while also being a incredible pivot, its far from a momentum sink.

I responded to Storm's pex comment because i was perplexed and confused why they refered to it as if it was some concerning restrictive force, as if it should've been suspected instead of Melm (and if i am misinterpreting what they meant, then i fully apologize). I don't think it is bad at all as a pokemon, far from it. It IS good. It is still highly resilient. But it isn't immovable at all. The tier is rife with tools to answer it (Heatran, Fini and even Volcanion can all trap and remove it while the presence of future sight makes it not as automatic of a switch in to strong breakers as it was before).

this rain comment is also super random as it assumes rain is some incredibly dominant force like it is in SM or BW when its really not. Rains usage and winrate is not that high at all. Pex also matches up better into rain then any other water resist in the tier so this just doesn't make any sense.

I should have been a bit clearer: rain is arguably better than it has been throughout all of gen8 right now. The nature of rain as a playstyle will always have it be inconsistent at times though and I never claimed it was super dominant so I would appreciate it if words were not put into my mouth.

Yes, theory-monning is bad and unproductive. But a lot of these posts have nothing to do with theory monning. A lot of mons of concern (clef/lele/pult/weavile/kart) are already dominant presences in the meta, melmetals defensive niche exists to soft check all of these in one slot while offering an insanely strong offensive presence.

Melmetal is also one of the only steel types that always run steel STAB. Without a doubt these mons will become way better without melm around, its just common sense.

It is leaning towards theorymonning to insinuate pokemon like Weavile/Clef/Pult/Kart/Lele may become too hard to handle without Melmetal around to act as a stopgap against them. Because we simply cannot know for sure. No one is disputing they will become better with Melm gone, or at least I'm personally not.

But for discussion's sake: if Melmetal leaving WOULD be such a negative because these pokemon would become more restricting to the point of needing action on them... What does that say about those other pokemon right now?

I should be clear also: i'm not entirely sold one way or the other right now because the nature of Melmetal as a pokemon in the metagame. It actually doesn't feel overwhelming in the builder with so many natural offensive and defensive checks, but actually exerts more in battle pressure because of the range of sets it has. You won't auto lose by scouting a set wrong (unless really unlucky). It also rarely lasts all game due to its longevity not being perfect, though grassy terrain teams (which are quite solid and effective) help this issue be less of one. On the flip side, it appreciates the noteworthy drop in Corv usage and the relative rarity of Skarmory and it is a great enabler of teammates thanks to the role compression it provides. Its high power makes it not passive and difficult to switch into depending on team structure. All of this in mind... It's hard to come to a conclusion one way or another.

I do want point out something though

Also, you can’t really use the logic of “don’t worry of what the meta looks like after X is banned” with Melmetal, as is it a much more defensive presence than prior suspects, and in general is more notable for its defensive aspects. You do have to take into effect the impact the removal of this defensively oriented threat has on the meta, as Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Corviknight are unable to really replicate the defensive niche that Melmetal generally tends to fulfill for many offensive teams.

No one is saying "don't worry about what the meta will look like after X is banned". They are saying "no one can know what a meta will look like afterwards.

 

[Blimax]

I was reading a lot of the posts made by everyone. I noticed the trend what everyone is saying. I do not have any opinion about melmetal staying in or going Ubers.
Here's the conclusion:
Most of the HO & Offense players like ( Mimikyu, Storm, Swua ) wan't Melmetal to stay, pretty understandable as banning MelB means one more weapon gone from their arsenal.

Most of the balance & stall players like ( Blunderr, me, Fardin ) want MelB gone because it opens the door for innovation and newer cores & not just protecting, para flinching shit.
Pretty understandable for the offense players to flinch and out muscle teams with melmetal with the amazing coverage.

Here's just the general trend which I noticed from everyone's post. Not posting any opinions, but since the stall and balances have a way higher population than the offenses, I think we all know where this is heading.

 

[Storm Zone]

I would like to state more opinions about this suspect and address some obvious critics,

1. First thing's first, when did people start disregarding the broken checks broken argument?, that is mind blowing to me, for one, if you ban something's counters, of course it is going to become broken, its broken BECAUSE you banned its counters LOL. That is a bit ridiculous let me give an example, heatran and dragonite checks volcarona, you banned heatran and dragonite, of course it becomes broken, say garchomp has weavile and buzzwole as counters, of course if you have those two leave the tier garchomp would become broken, so u see this argument is immediately valid unless we control the tier based on bias and not in general, and lean toward balance and stall players, essentially leaning immediately towards what the ban supporters say. I NEVER said it was broken to begin with, people are indirectly saying its broken, its not even broken checks broken, its "ARGUABLY healthy pokemon is preventing another pokemon from being broken because its a counter" ,the reason a pokemon is broken is because it doesnt have counters, it has a counter that some people want to ban. Very simple, it has counters, you just decide to ban it because some people THINK its broken


2. Second thing i would like to address is the bias towards balance and stall players, notice how certain people say just because it hurts offense more than fat which is untrue to begin with cause if melmetal has the right set it can beat balanced or fat teams better than it beats offense, basically labelling melmetal broken because it can punch enough holes in teams to force progress, something this tier is lacking, someone mentioned other breakers like blaziken and crawdaunt, so what differs them from melmetal? Its bulk alone, people don't know how to handle and manuever around melmetal, they know how to handle blaziken and crawdaunt, talking as someone who builds roughly 5-6 teams a day and with the most experience in the tier, i know there are almost hundreds of ways to handle melmetal, people just can't innovate because they choose not to look into other pokemon,
A pokemon with that much counter measures doesnt even warrant a discussion, it should be A rank at best Leaning towards A+. The entire community should be happy with the suspect test outcome, not leaving several unhappy (the entire offense playerbase being disregarded for so many years) , so i urge the balance and stall players to look into other mons and innovate more, that will open your eyes and make you see its really not broken, you just did not know how to handle it.

3. The gen is ending it could have been suspected sooner, 2 years melmetal was in ou, people didnt care to look into it because the meta teams handled it well, now towards the end of the gen the metagame is detereorating and melmetal is beating a dead meta's teams, when you could have reused the same teams from a year ago to handle melmetal just fine, the gen is about to end, but smart changes should be made, melmetal completes and balances out this meta very well and since the gen is ending, the last thing we want is a past gen unstable meta with more threats unleashed because of an unnecessary suspect.

4. Notice how the last time a defensive pokemon was banned was the very end of gen 6, there are many defensive pokemon i stated that needs to be looked into, and yes this INCLUDES toxapex, pex is not good right now because everybody is checking their team to have 2-3 pex counters just to keep it in check, what if they just built a balance without that consideration?, they would realise and say "hey! pex was holding back so many pokemon, i was just too blind to see it because teams r focused on having a pex check). They are blinded by offense so they dont realise that defense has restricting capabilities. And in my opinion anybody who thinks toxapex is fine and healthy does not have enough teambuilding experience or ladder experience/tier experience to realise these in depth and specific teambuilding measures that they are unconsciously taking to keep toxapex in check. Remember it boils down to experience and tier knowledge here, pex is considered broken because they are trying to run down its usage by specifically preparing for it more than other pokemon, and that gives the illusion that its not good because everybody is overpreparing for it.

5. Remember, as i stated above, stall and balance do not make a metagame, all playstyles contribute to and play an important role in the metagame, so please don't be biased toward stall and balance.


I hope this makes a good lecture and sheds light on those who responded to me (directly or indirectly), remember folks i state a third time because i am DEFIANT about this, every playstyle makes a metagame, not just stall and balance.

 

[berunka]

I would like to state more opinions about this suspect and address some obvious critics,

1. First thing's first, when did people start disregarding the broken checks broken argument?, that is mind blowing to me, for one, if you ban something's counters, of course it is going to become broken, its broken BECAUSE you banned its counters LOL. That is a bit ridiculous let me give an example, heatran and dragonite checks volcarona, you banned heatran and dragonite, of course it becomes broken, say garchomp has weavile and buzzwole as counters, of course if you have those two leave the tier garchomp would become broken, so u see this argument is immediately valid unless we control the tier based on bias and not in general, and lean toward balance and stall players, essentially leaning immediately towards what the ban supporters say. I NEVER said it was broken to begin with, people are indirectly saying its broken, its not even broken checks broken, its "ARGUABLY healthy pokemon is preventing another pokemon from being broken because its a counter" ,the reason a pokemon is broken is because it doesnt have counters, it has a counter that some people want to ban. Very simple, it has counters, you just decide to ban it because some people THINK its broken


2. Second thing i would like to address is the bias towards balance and stall players, notice how certain people say just because it hurts offense more than fat which is untrue to begin with cause if melmetal has the right set it can beat balanced or fat teams better than it beats offense, basically labelling melmetal broken because it can punch enough holes in teams to force progress, something this tier is lacking, someone mentioned other breakers like blaziken and crawdaunt, so what differs them from melmetal? Its bulk alone, people don't know how to handle and manuever around melmetal, they know how to handle blaziken and crawdaunt, talking as someone who builds roughly 5-6 teams a day and with the most experience in the tier, i know there are almost hundreds of ways to handle melmetal, people just can't innovate because they choose not to look into other pokemon,
A pokemon with that much counter measures doesnt even warrant a discussion, it should be A rank at best Leaning towards A+. The entire community should be happy with the suspect test outcome, not leaving several unhappy (the entire offense playerbase being disregarded for so many years) , so i urge the balance and stall players to look into other mons and innovate more, that will open your eyes and make you see its really not broken, you just did not know how to handle it.

3. The gen is ending it could have been suspected sooner, 2 years melmetal was in ou, people didnt care to look into it because the meta teams handled it well, now towards the end of the gen the metagame is detereorating and melmetal is beating a dead meta's teams, when you could have reused the same teams from a year ago to handle melmetal just fine, the gen is about to end, but smart changes should be made, melmetal completes and balances out this meta very well and since the gen is ending, the last thing we want is a past gen unstable meta with more threats unleashed because of an unnecessary suspect.

4. Notice how the last time a defensive pokemon was banned was the very end of gen 6, there are many defensive pokemon i stated that needs to be looked into, and yes this INCLUDES toxapex, pex is not good right now because everybody is checking their team to have 2-3 pex counters just to keep it in check, what if they just built a balance without that consideration?, they would realise and say "hey! pex was holding back so many pokemon, i was just too blind to see it because teams r focused on having a pex check). They are blinded by offense so they dont realise that defense has restricting capabilities.

5. Remember, as i stated above, stall and balance do not make a metagame, all playstyles contribute to and play an important role in the metagame, so please don't be biased toward stall and balance.


I hope this makes a good lecture and sheds light on those who responded to me (directly or indirectly), remember folks i state a third time because i am DEFIANT about this, every playstyle makes a metagame, not just stall and balance.

is this seriously a post- well, two now- from a top player that basically boils down to complaining about stall? yes, it is. this feels so hastily and like.... desparately? written? you're talking about a bias towards balance and stall, but i don't really see that anywhere. this gen has favored BO and HO way more in recent times than it did at the start. besides, melm is a mon that fits perfectly on balance. also, u say that speed is a must for a pokemon to receive a suspect after you just said it was insane that toxapex didn't receive a suspect before melmetal.

then u say that the offense playerbase is being disregarded, which, what? how? people are here to suspect melmetal because it's something that's been in high demand and an idea of contention for the whole generation, not because they hate a particular playstyle. they wanna see how the meta will develop and continue to thrive after a decision gets made.

if you took off the storm zone label i would think that this comes from a 1200 elo player who just absolutely hates running into mons that they think are Stall because they hate playing a game that's more than 20 turns. you probably think stall is more dominant because you hate it so much that it lives in your head! maybe u could even like, look around and enjoy the interactions that a well-built stall team can bring- they're super fun to build, seriously, and i wouldn't even mind a meta that favors it more. you're being very mean to this playstyle much more than you claim offense is being unfairly treated! stall has been a genuine part of the game we play for eternity, get over it <3

but anyways, melm isn't the only thing that would keep stall in check. you yourself said that weavile and pult would go crazy and honestly, yeah. but that's not a reason i wouldn't want it gone!

tl;dr lol

anyways vote ban bc its fucking ugly and i hate seeing it on my screen its a got damn eyesore

 

[advaita]

Wow Storm Zone this post is gold.

5. Remember, as i stated above, stall and balance do not make a metagame, all playstyles contribute to and play an important role in the metagame, so please don't be biased toward stall and balance.

I'd like to echo this sentiment. I have spectated a lot of recent SS tournaments and players are not bringing vanilla Offense to Smogon Tour Qualifiers & OLT playoff games. Really speaks volumes when players aren't comfortable with / confident enough bringing what should be a "top 3 most common archetype" bar a few compositions like Urshifu / Lele / Zapdos, Beat Up Weavile ft. Volcanion Offense, etc....

1. You cannot predict the future, even if you think so. If Melmetal were to be banned, the most likely result is that other Steel-types would rise in usage to fill Melmetal's niches. You cannot accurately predict how the metagame will evolve from there.

You are saying "you cannot predict the future," yet the next line you're predicting that other Steel-types would fill up Melmetal's niche. Logic?

I disagree with this being "poor argumentation." It is completely fair to say that removing Melmetal will only make balance and stall more dominant. The type of teams people love spamming right now is hazards with Boots SPAM, clicking Knock Off a million times, or just an overall influx of Regenerator cores. Melmetal makes extremely fast progress which is rare and much needed in this metagame. It is a healthy presence, both offensively and defensively.

I completely agree with Storm Zone. We have our priorities wrong. Defensive archetypes need to be looked at too, which includes Toxapex and Heavy-Duty Boots. I and many of my friends have placed these points into surveys and they are never addressed. Instead we are placing tiering action on Melmetal which received a 50%+ no tiering action vote as per the last survey update and have things like Quick Claw Glowbro being voted on lol...