Survivor (Big) Survivor: Starhome

[Nuxl]

er for clarity sorry it’s almost 3 am but f10 doesn’t go to rocks (if tommy openly flips it doesn’t, if he quietly flips it does) but i also think in either case it doesn’t “ruin” my game and i feel like i have other outs in that case - despite that idt flipping there would be smart for tommy anyway so not sure why it’s brought up

 

[Duskfall98]

question for anyone: someone explain to me why several jurors seem to think eli played this amazing game and deserves to win easily, but both of the other ftc speeches almost offhandedly mention that eli was carried and didnt earn the win, like that is a foregone conclusion that we should already be aware of.

Can you clarify what you are looking for here?

I feel like the reasons why me and ryo feel we outplayed eli here, in a general sense, has already been touched upon a lot. Bearing in mind I know eli is currently upset with me I would prefer not to repeatedly beat on him with the same stuff, so if there are specific questions regarding why I personally feel I outplayed him and directly deserve the win over him, I will answer that.

The other portion of the question regarding jury: I think this answer varies on the set person. I will say that some of the jury members pushing him could be bias, I know for example certain jury members would never vote with me from the second I voted them out, despite the fact they started confrontation with me. While you could put something like this down to social play, I don't think that makes sense here, if jury members couldn't even be bothered to deal with ftc and read to have an influence on their vote, despite missing the almost entirety of merge, I don't think they are earnestly voting for the best player here. Whether eli is the best or not debate aside, votes like this certainly aren't going to him for being the best player, but rather because they desire for him to win for whatever reason that we could probably all guess.

To zach: I think his vote kind of makes sense here from his pov, tbz obviously tossed their relationship and he feels ryo played bad. That leaves myself and eli, zach believes I played unfairly and wasn't trying to win, but I was and anyone who knows me from eimm knows im hyper competitive. So I believe that zachs vote goes to eli here on the basis that all the other 3 are undeserving on a principle reason. That being said, I wish zach was more willing to engage with me, because I really don't agree with his thought process regarding me being a pregame only person, certainly on the ftc I am outdone by others in this regard I believe.

No bad blood with zach, but it is a huge regret for me if people see my game as some pregame circle jerk. I hope at least you guys from separatists disagree and believe I played fairly.

 

[RyoDio]

Unimportant/quick aside I just wanna stomp out, I still stg I never threw your name out at merge, and if “we” (s16) did then I certainly don’t remember it/wasn’t there for it

I’ll prob have more to press about, I’d just like to see other peoples’ questions/responses roll in atm

When Brandon gives Tommy a follow up and not you

 

[Duskfall98]

eli and tommy, i pretty much have the same question for both of you. both of you seem to believe that you were in control of the other throughout the game. who controlled who, and why?

So it would be disingenuous for me to outright say eli is not an independent thinker obviously. We all know in the right enviroment eli is a powerful player and a big threat if he has the right assets or set up. That is the reason why he got this label as a perceived jury threat in the first place in my opinion, not really because of his in game play. His survival despite the label seems to be what people rate so highly, which is odd to me because coming into merge certain loyalists seemed to think I was also a big threat early, though I managed to play this down and negate it by mid merge. This is something I did more effectively.

To answer the question specifically, eli of course was not pushing votes against his wincon because I said so, I don't think any survivor player barring very few exceptions do this. However, by the time viper was removed eli was 100 percent in a spot where he could not do anything without my aid. I think it speaks volumes that pretty much every play he has made, he must debate whether it was himself or me behind it. Whilst I had many plays outside of our dynamic.

Sure, zoa vote was good by eli, it was good for me too and we did discuss this as allies and it was constructive for both our games. But in the dying embers, after the tie it isn't really arguable that I was in control of the final outcome while eli sat. Eli argues this is weak but at the same time, both were in ways advantageous to me and opened up very different paths to endgame, had I flipped to you then clouds would have stayed on you also. Me and clouds discussed this extensively and I was fully aware this vote was my call. I do think eli deserves props for getting this though, he certainly played this phase well. But it was still under my wing, and with my go ahead, my final call.

Personally I don't think to rely on a person's play is to be a bad player, or stupid or whatever. It just is what it is, eli got a bad hand and ended up out of the social loop and he needed me to pull mountains to stay in the game. Now people arguing it is a throw for me to keep eli in, maybe that is true but as I said before, no matter who made this ftc there was always pregame threats with big labels. Torin and clouds were far bigger threats to my game that anyone on this ftc, as they had not played under my shadow, needing my aid to get everything done.

I don't believe this is a fair question for eli ftr. I don't think he is really arguing that he had more control than me, his plea for winning is based on surviving as a threat as I understand. And that fundamentally relied on me, be that good play or a bad play.

 

[Duskfall98]

Final 8 was probably one of the most important votes to jury from what I have seen and at the risk of boring people I would like to explain it from my own perspective:

I woke up with my bad timezone and spoke to tbz before work. He had informed me that pretty much everyone was on eli and he was willing to vote eli at this point. He also informed me that eli had been trying very hard to shift the votes off himself, obviously but to no avail. This confused me a lot because at this point i thought eli had a strong 3 allies to back him always: myself, clouds, psy.

Obviously, at this point if everyone has agreed consensus then these 3 very open allies are not all voting with eli. It couldn't have been me who flipped obviously, so I went to the other two to find out what exactly was going down. Clouds was pretty open at this point, he would vote eli if he eli was going home, but he strongly preferred keeping eli in if I could pull another number. I spoke to psy and asked like what we could do, who he wanted to vote and at this point I didn't really get much out of psy so I was definitely suspicious.

Obviously, tbz already said he was down for eli vote, torin and zach also thought he was a great vote (they were right for their game). This meant that the majority was therefore finally made up of ryo + likely psy. I knew at this point clouds was genuinely a number to help save eli.

So I knew ryo was my number one and was absolutely someone who would have my back, I tried my luck and tried very hard to convince him that eli should be saved for later. I won't go into it but I did honestly try hard here, with not much effect as zach and torin were pushing from the other side for an eli vote.

This meant I found myself still a number short, I thought if I could tie it at 4 the other side would never risk rocks, so I went and asked psy the very important question something like this: "It looks like eli is going here, do you think we have to just drop him or can we save him?", psy gave me a sad response that it is looking like eli had to go, with no real suggestion of any other move we could make. To me this signaled that psy had flipped from elis side to zachs, and if this was the case then I could certainly be next. It was time for psy to go, his ties with zach were too scary.

So, at this point obviously I had been putting off a psy vote, ryo had been trying to convince me both at f10 and f9 that psy was the biggest threat in the game. I offered psy as a counter argument for eli, which shocked ryo because he believed my dynamic with psy was super tight. This is true I love psy but we drifted apart over the course of the game. At this point ryo was still hesitant, he correctly believed eli would try turn on him next vote and boot him for the rest of merge. I reassured ryo this would not be the case, though eli was actually telling me he could not promise to not target ryo.

That being said, eli and ryo absolutely did not want to talk to each other and I literally forced them into a vc to talk it out, with me being the mediator and referring their differences since they had been fighitng a lot to this point, especially post the zoa vote. This call probably lasted about an hour and at the end eli had promised to stand by ryo for the coming votes, though I knew this was fake and it would be up to me to damage control further in the future.

That being said this is how the vote ended up on psy, it is true that this is a vote ryo wanted for several phases. But I think had this vote come at f9, f7, f6 or f5 ryo would still be marking on his jury speech "my ideal vote", as he got psy out. Ryo compromised to a psy vote, and he did have that choice, but I was able to dangle it in front of his face to save eli when I chose, when I was ready for psy to go. Ryo had waited for this vote to happen and I let it happen on my terms when I had already snowballed the game to a point I was pretty much guarenteed ftc.

 

[Ayia]

Hi Zach, I realise I don't have your vote and probably am not winning but also this hurt me a lot. It feels to just be completely untrue based on how I actually played. I do think I was a hard person to ally, but that is because I had many separatists already. Your argument for pregame may be used on tbz, but you did that too so I don't think it is fair.

For the record I am kind of curious who you thought I should actually take to ftc. Eli is my out of game friend, but should that mean that I can't take the one guy who was with me at start of merge? If I am playing for pregame then why is ryo my number one? I really think that the most pregame thing that could happen here is you voting eli, after him having a game where the only think he got done was winning a few challenges.

And for the record I have literally been playing to win for ages. I am aware I have little pregame votes and it was hard for me to pick out an f4 I could beat, regardless how well I played. But I am curious, how actuallyyou think a possible winning f4 could be rated? This is also in a game where eli tried to get me to flip on ryo every night on the basis he "is fine with tommy winning since we are friends oogs but not ryo". Eli whos second after tommy was viper. Eli whos third after tommy was clouds. Eli whos other allies was literally like eimm zach and eimm tbz? How has eli done anything outside of pregame here, he literally flipped on on separatists immediately running back to his oog friends.

If you want to vote eli here, I get it, he is good friends with you oog and I understand this is an uphill battle for me, but please dont tell me I was the one pregaming when all of elies top handful of allies were literally pregame eimmers he flipped to on the merge tribe.

Apologies, I was under the impression you weren't going to try at FTC. To be fair, this is what you said to me and your actions in the game didn't go against it, and as previously mentioned this was written before FTC speeches were.

However, while this makes you eligible for my vote, I do think it's bothersome that from my perspective, no actions you took in the game were far different from that of if you weren't trying. While claiming you weren't trying did successfully lower your threat level, Eli's threat level raised as a result, making him a sort of shield for you. I'm sure this was intentional. But shields are meant to be discarded before FTC! You don't go to your FTC with your shield!

Additionally, to me it felt that your game was but an extension of Eli's, and I'm sure many jurors feel the same - this idea was cemented by the fact that you consistently said/implied that you'd never vote Eli, the fact that you were willing to throw for Eli at the F6 challenge, the fact that you voted with Eli almost every single time, and of course the fact that you claimed not to try for yourself. I also think it's quite presumptuous of you to think you're the clear winner of this game and yet you believe that almost no one in this merge of all very good players found you to be any sort of FTC threat (except for me afaik, though I was considering a world in which Eli doesn't stand next to you since I didn't think you'd ever take Eli if you were actually trying).

Anyhoo, these are the new complaints I have, so I have a few (you get more than one, yes!!) questions for you:
First, what distinguishes your game from Eli's?
Second, it didn't feel to me that you had the control over the game that you claim you had. Can you give me some moves that were explicitly yours? How did your control actually affect things?
Lastly, why did you want to stand next to Eli?

 

[Duskfall98]

Apologies, I was under the impression you weren't going to try at FTC. To be fair, this is what you said to me and your actions in the game didn't go against it, and as previously mentioned this was written before FTC speeches were.

However, while this makes you eligible for my vote, I do think it's bothersome that from my perspective, no actions you took in the game were far different from that of if you weren't trying. While claiming you weren't trying did successfully lower your threat level, Eli's threat level raised as a result, making him a sort of shield for you. I'm sure this was intentional. But shields are meant to be discarded before FTC! You don't go to your FTC with your shield!

Additionally, to me it felt that your game was but an extension of Eli's, and I'm sure many jurors feel the same - this idea was cemented by the fact that you consistently said/implied that you'd never vote Eli, the fact that you were willing to throw for Eli at the F6 challenge, the fact that you voted with Eli almost every single time, and of course the fact that you claimed not to try for yourself. I also think it's quite presumptuous of you to think you're the clear winner of this game and yet you believe that almost no one in this merge of all very good players found you to be any sort of FTC threat (except for me afaik, though I was considering a world in which Eli doesn't stand next to you since I didn't think you'd ever take Eli if you were actually trying).

Anyhoo, these are the new complaints I have, so I have a few (you get more than one, yes!!) questions for you:
First, what distinguishes your game from Eli's?
Second, it didn't feel to me that you had the control over the game that you claim you had. Can you give me some moves that were explicitly yours? How did your control actually affect things?
Lastly, why did you want to stand next to Eli?

Before I answer, have you read the full thread and seen all my answers because I have spoke about a lot of this extensively I feel. Would you like me to go back over it.

For the record I do understand I word spammed so I mean this in the least shady way possible but I have addressed a lot of this so just making sure.

 

[RyoDio]

hi finalists! im really liking everything i'm seeing so far! eli, tommy, ryo, all of your speeches were super compelling and your answers have been fun to read! tbz, good luck with your shift and i can't wait to see what you have in store! i'll pop in now with a few questions (eli i know youre about to sleep so you can leave this for tomorrow dw)

eli and tommy, i pretty much have the same question for both of you. both of you seem to believe that you were in control of the other throughout the game. who controlled who, and why?

ryo, as you can see, you made an EXTREMELY controversial decision at a certain point in this game that just so happened to involve voting out a certain someone in a cruel, heartless, brutal, despicable manner! however, you've talked enough about that so far so i'm not gonna ask about that. instead, i'll ask you to rank every player who was remaining in the game at f10 based on your own personal perspective on who was the most likely to win if they reached the f4.

ALSO WAIT RYO ACTUALLY WHAT WAS THE POST YOU WERE GONNA SEND ME YOU NEVER SHOWED ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

What controversial play at f8 sry I don’t remember that very well (jk)

Why am I asked the dirty laundry questions smh.

It’s very hard for me to compile a list because the final 10 were all great players and I know certain players were a few moves away from being massive FTC threats. (I’m going to assume this list is f10 right after the tribal)

Tbh you could blend this entire list together

1. Myself :Cate:, right after f10 I lost some of my control for a limited time, however prior to f10 I think I was playing the best game and I really do value the long period of absolute power I had. My visibility was constant throughout and I was another play away from getting control again at that point in the game.

2. Clouds, clouds and Eli were the two players where their names already made them ftc threats. Unlike Eli however, Clouds up to F10 was playing a very strong individual game, he directly or indirectly had a lot of idol bluffs, and skillfully came up with ways to avoid himself being the vote every time.

3. Tommy, Tommy is really big on himself this FTC. While I do think he has grossly exaggerated a lot of things and that he shouldn’t be discrediting myself or TBZ as much as he is, Tommy did play a superb game and while Eli isnt his “goat”, Tommy did play not only to take himself but also take Eli to the end and did so successfully.

4. Psy, Psy you don’t get nearly enough credit for the game that you played. You made the most out of the separatist swap without being in the core with me Brandon-Zoa-Torin, staying in majority and then also shifted into loyalist really well. Your plays were slick and seamless, you reminded me a lot of peak Dyo gameplay and not only were you the only person I took a shot at and missed, but had I not gone for you at F8 you would have made FTC and made a really good case for yourself that would’ve been hard for me to take anything away from.

5. Eli

Eli should be lower but at f10 and after I did see Eli as extremely threatening. His threat level was no joke and he was a great challenge threat as well; the main thing threatening about Eli though was how Tommy was protecting him and I do think that should take away from his FTC even though ofc he has played well and I really like the guy. Eli has a big name and people thought “oh no if Eli makes ftc he’ll get votes” and that became the truth even though not much was done other than that. 5th seems right

6. Torin

Torin is an amazing player, the reason he’s 6th is because up until f10 he was playing a very great UTR game, he already was building up a resume but most of his resume I feel was built up after f10, or at least all of Torin’s impressive achievements snowballed to make him the most threatening player left at f6. It’s hard for me to not have him higher though knowing how amazing of a game he played near the end.

7. Zach

Zach I feel got really unlucky as the game went on. Zoa going at f10 was both good and bad for Zach; I will say at f10 Zach was a few plays away from controlling the game and had things gone right for Zach afterwards (ex you[psy] not going at f8), Zach could have made an argument for him controlling the game. At f10 though Zach had a bumpy road up to that point.

8. TBZ

Tbz played an amazing game as well and he is a worthy winner/winner I would be very happy with. He is criminally low for me because at F10, tbz was a little lost, other players stated how much they distrusted TBZ and TBZ complained about how out of the loop he felt from everyone. TBZ always had me but his initiative after F10 and plays afterwards were where I think TBZ played a great game, at f10 TBZ was in a rough spot.

9. Totter

It’s easy to put 9th place in 9th place but Totter despite having a premerge that’s slept on and the foresight to constantly stay in majority is still here. Totter is really here because his flip didn’t work out and around f10 he found himself in the crossfire of a lot of people. I will say if totter made FTC it would mean totter went through an ABSOLUTE WAR and probably honestly could have been a deserving winner as well if he played his cards right. In order to gain that status though totter would likely have had to cut me, due to people such as Eli and Tommy seeing him as my “goat”. Getting rid of me in bigvivor is very difficult and I certainly didn’t want to boot totter so I hope him cutting me would have been equally hard for him . But yeah at f10 totter would have needed to play a very cutthroat and powerful game to earn winner status; which I do think was possible tbh if he had survived f9.

THE SECRET PSY JURY MANAGEMENT MESSAGE

I don’t think I sent anyone any jury management messages on their way out, I guess you could count me telling Brandon I’d miss him a lot in game but I always knew Brandon would only vote for me if he thought I deserved it. At F10 Psy I thought you were done because I thought Zoa could play an idol on the 5-5 revote, I didn’t expect to get your vote because I thought you were closer to everyone else sitting next to me so I felt comfortable sending you a message explaining why “I voted you out at f10”

it went like this,

“Hey Psy, I know this is jury management but I currently don’t expect your vote and feel that your game hasn’t been treated with as much respect as it should so I wanted to send this to you. I honestly do think you getting 10th is a robbery, at f11 Vooper(the kingpin at that point) pushed you and you still would have survived despite his influence on both sides of the game. You’re very likable and I knew you would be a social threat and deep merge threat. You’ve navigated through your alliances imo the most seamless in the game, and have somehow managed to control your overall perception and continue to play very slickly while the biggest players in the game (Vooper and clouds) were pushing you. and even though I didn’t want your name down I knew I had to while I still could. Above all else thank you for the starcoin friend I treasure it : )”

obviously that would have been silly to send you and very incriminating to me and my thoughts after you survived F10 , but that was the secret jury management question

 

[Ayia]

Janzen Q1: ok so I have two main questions: number one, both you and tommy so far have claimed to kind of run the game. I expect Eli might say the same. I asked Tommy this too already, but is there any evidence you can point to that would prove that you were the one in charge and not them? Like maybe some votes where they worked in your favor and not in their best interest? Or any other evidence you can think of

Ryo A1:
The main evidence for me over eli is probably f5.

At f5 I was Eli’s main target, from f8-f5 I had gotten my non-immune ideal target every time. At f5 eli saw me as his biggest threat and I saw Eli as my biggest threat. Tommy wasn’t even really in that equation.

It was Ryo vs Eli- Yet Eli wasn’t able to take me out at f5, that’s the main indicator to me that I played a better game than Eli.

As for Tommy, I really do think he played a great game but he’s advertising himself as the most visible player left who openly dictated votes which isn’t true. For some asinine reason Tommy did want Eli at the end with him, but I am confident had Eli lost that he would also be on the jury and Tommy knew I had that over him.

Ryo vs Tommy is a bit difficult in terms of control because our interests typically aligned. I’ll say confidently that I was more visible than him and in terms of controlling the vote-

It was fully my choice between torin or Eli going at F6 not Tommys, and the same for Psy vs Eli at F8

Regardless of what Tommy says about those also being his ideal targets as well, I was always the decider-the one in power

Tommy’s high point at f10 was my only low point in the game, I truly was above him the rest of that

Janzen Q2: and the other one would be that multiple people when voted out said that you lacked game awareness and did not have a good idea of how the game was really playing out. I know you mentioned that you actually had good awareness in your speech, so what would you say to that?

Ryo A2: People who stated I had poor game awareness said so because they thought my plays were too risky and thought it would get me voted out. I was aware of who was getting voted out every single time. I think me making it to the end shows that my plays didn’t get me voted out, for example Torin and Zach thought I was fucked at f5 and by voting out Torin at f6 I was doomed to go home if I wasn’t immune. Well I wasn’t immune yet I stayed in the game, I think that matters.

girlie your lack of game awareness comes from the fact that your threat analysis was all over the place and you view your game as amazing because you value all the wrong things
I explained to you exactly why your views were wrong but I don't think anything I said had to do with you getting voted out lol so clearly you were just not listening to anything I said
in fact I'm pretty sure I said the opposite?? I said you'd never win at FTC bc of your lack of game awareness

 

[Ayia]

Before I answer, have you read the full thread and seen all my answers because I have spoke about a lot of this extensively I feel. Would you like me to go back over it.

For the record I do understand I word spammed so I mean this in the least shady way possible but I have addressed a lot of this so just making sure.

er yeah I'm slowly reading through so if you want to reply/redirect me to some of the highlights that'd be great

 

[RyoDio]

question for anyone: someone explain to me why several jurors seem to think eli played this amazing game and deserves to win easily, but both of the other ftc speeches almost offhandedly mention that eli was carried and didnt earn the win, like that is a foregone conclusion that we should already be aware of.

this is a very important question to answer, this is because every finalist recognizes how vulnerable Eli was. TBZ and I were in close communication with Tommy and each of us can verify how Eli’s position worked in regards to ours.

At f8 and f6 I made the decisions that I believed solely benefitted me more. While at f8 Eli was more of a jury threat than Psy, I still think at ftc it would have been revealed that Psy played a better game than Eli.

The way Eli and Tommy operated as a duo was one direction. No matter what Eli wanted he *needed tommy*, Eli never decided any vote against me because he never had the power to vote me off.

If Eli wanted to cut Tommy, then Eli could have jumped through hoops and still been unable to do so, meanwhile if Tommy ever wanted to cut Eli he could do so with a single snap.

Eli was the one I had to weigh as “should I keep him or get rid of him here”, due to my earlier conversations with Brandon and Zoa I honestly really did want to boot eli bordering me feeling an obligation to do so. Yet I forced myself not to boot eli, not because Tommy “told me to” but because Psy and Torin I both think played better and were more threatening to me.

If Eli wins I’m proud of him and I also respect his status a lot and would graciously accept the loss, but I really don’t think Eli deserves as much credit for his game which really was a one way mirror with Tommy.

Tommy made Eli appear as “his shield” and took Eli to FTC which was a mistake. But if you look at the game objectively, Tommy should be more Eli’s shield than the other way around.

(Ofc I’m naturally gonna think I deserve the win over both.)

 

[RyoDio]

girlie your lack of game awareness comes from the fact that your threat analysis was all over the place and you view your game as amazing because you value all the wrong things
I explained to you exactly why your views were wrong but I don't think anything I said had to do with you getting voted out lol so clearly you were just not listening to anything I said
in fact I'm pretty sure I said the opposite?? I said you'd never win at FTC bc of your lack of game awareness

You told me I was screwed at multiple points in the game; you told me it was impossible for me to make FTC if I took out Psy at f8 and thought I was screwed at F5 had Eli won immunity which he did. If you think my game awareness was poor then we have a fundamental disagreement.

I replied to your question of what I believed my biggest mistake was which could show a lack of game awareness in that instance but as a whole if you get to FTC and aren’t a goat good game awareness is something you need to have.

In regards to Eli, all of us finalists are aware that the jury sees him as an all powerful figure but he did play the weakest game out of us 4 and I told you that you played a better game than Eli as well. I’m aware I likely don’t have your vote, but I honestly do appreciate you asking me questions because it helps me clear up misconceptions + my own thoughts on the game. Thank you zach

 

[Duskfall98]

Sorry brandon, I missed this at the bottom of the previous pages oopsies.

So yes, I agree with your point about this being a tough decision who to take, and I had decided early. I don't think I need to go through the playerlist 1 by 1, but vast majority had more pregame connections and votes for me. This was inevitable, its how these games work and you are right it was one thing I did need to overcome.

I really felt for my own game, that if I was going to lose to pregame favour then that is something that inevitable. I don't think there exists some wild janky f4 where there is no one with strong pregame. This is something I felt like I had to face regardless and if I was going to win, I have to do it on my own terms. If I take clouds, or zach, or torin etc, all of these people have lots of votes they can receive based on friendships and oog jury favour. However, these players also played independent games which were not reliant on me. I wanted the ftc to have to talk about their moves with me in it and also be working with me. I think my game suffered a lot based on lack of rep, no matter what I did I seemed to never get credit while others picked it up easily. I think I played my best possible game given the pregame connections, and would genuinely be interested to know who people would take instead. I think as mentioned before that ryo and eli existing here together is a weakness for their game, as it shows that neither had the ability to get the other booted. Had I allowed one to go home, then I am sure ryo or eli would be bragging about this right now as jury give them the credit. I want no one to get independent credit besides me and for that to happen I had to drag eli to f4.

There are literally any number of moments to show I had the power over eli:

1) on separatist he had the previous tribe allies, I still left with the stronger connections from this tribe

2) when eli leaked me and I cut him off after the viper stuff, he was effectively dead in the water until I picked him back up again, he complained to tbz about this in game

3) eli in his jury speech speaks about f10, if I flip here his game is completely sunk while mine is not, eli is relying on my vote to have anything in this game

4) at f8, this is obvious and i hope clouds defends this point to jury but without me eli obviously goes home here, he relies on me to stay in the game again

5) f6 is repeat, you think it is bad play but my jury speech is reliant on my absolute control of the game and eli is effectively my goat, he has done nothing without me all of merge and anything successful he has done has been with my say only, I think everyone else on this f4 would definitely agree eli is the weakest player here gameplay wise, but I have learned over the course that perception is everything in survivor which is probably something i would need to work on if i play again. You can play flawlessly but if everything you do goes to another its unavoidable, im hoping via my jury arguments its kinda clear how much influence I had this game.

You ask me to choose between second-in-command or under the radar but that is not really a hard choice since I definitely was not second in command this game, especially after you left the game.

So why is my under the radar game better? This is probably where my philosophy differs from some survivor players. I don't think being public is a big deal personally, the only time this matters is in ftc, when you hope people assign credit to you. My failure in eli being more "public" than me is not currently a failure, it is only a failure if post this council people still believe he played a great game despite doing effectively nothing.

I know a lot of org players believe that being on the bottom and surviving is good play, and that may be true, but only if you survive on your own terms and help flip the game. When eli survived at f8, does anyone here truly believe that the ryo vote in his favour came from them talking it out? I would be shocked if you did. I made the link and got it through. Eli didn't make any social plays to escape his bad position, there was nothing unique about his game except for the fact I convinced ryo to keep him in. Eli was on the bottom and public, but beyond that there is nothing but oog friends.

Why my under the radar game is better than this is as follows:

1) I was able to take no risks, I reliably made it to f4 and saw my path. I did not have to dice roll on certain things happening often and my gameplay was far more analytical and had more foresight. I knew the f4 at about f10. I did not play the game council by council, but often knew who the type of people would be going over the next few phases, and influenced votes so that path would suit me.

2) I was able to consume all info. Whenever something happened I was immediately informed, almost without exception. I was valued by many and everyone trusted me with their precious info which allowed me to keep my spot in control. Examples of this was ryo leaking me lots of s16 stuff, or tbz leaking me loyalist items. My info came from all over the game, with a lot of people confiding in me due to being more under the radar. Most of eli's info was relying on me sharing, which also allowed me to filter what I would like him to know.

3) Whenever I flipped, people continued to underestimated my position. Oftentimes people seemed to see my calculated moves as misplays for some reason. I think this is clearly false because regardless of whether anyone agrees if I sent this game in a good direction, I certainly chose the direction it went in and therefore at the very least moved the pieces how I wanted, be that good or bad. This allowed me to flip back whenever I wanted and truly force through any vote without repercussions (when I voted zoa, but immediately flipped into the good graces of torin and ryo again).

4) I was able to force people to blunder, without them second guessing my motives. Everything I said people took as genuine. This is absolutely one of the most powerful things in survivor or any org. It helped me to flush clouds idol and get him out, which is something i desperately wanted. I do think if clouds had idol in hand at f7, he had a decent chance to make it to f4. I think most agree if clouds was sitting here he probably wins, and everyone wanted him out but my play was what put him in a position to be voted. If I wasn't under the radar and genuine, this could never happened. No one was believing eli for a case like this.

5) My game was under the radar because I was never threatened much beyond f14 where I managed to reassure my way out of the vote. I went to you yourself and buttered you up after hearing the news and ensured we were still together. From that point up I was never a vote option because I always stopped everything before it built up, and systematically removed any threat to myself before it got big. Examples of this were pisx, totters and psy who could've flipped with zach.

If anything came from this I would like you to not appreciate the fact my game was under the radar for the most part because, I never was threatened enough to be public. Had I been in a situation where my name was up I am sure I would've lived, as at every point in merge I had majority on me side. Eli's game is more public because he failed to stamp out threats to himself before they manifested, and relied on someone else (me) to stamp them out for him.

I was never afraid to make plays this game, which I think is obviously very difficult to do while staying under the radar. However, I manged to do so and I think any game is going to be better under the radar, provided you can prove yourself at ftc. Survivor is a game of managing your threat level to get to the ftc, and I managed my threat level better than anyone else in the game. This is why you see me as under the radar.

Can you clarify what you are looking for here?

I feel like the reasons why me and ryo feel we outplayed eli here, in a general sense, has already been touched upon a lot. Bearing in mind I know eli is currently upset with me I would prefer not to repeatedly beat on him with the same stuff, so if there are specific questions regarding why I personally feel I outplayed him and directly deserve the win over him, I will answer that.

The other portion of the question regarding jury: I think this answer varies on the set person. I will say that some of the jury members pushing him could be bias, I know for example certain jury members would never vote with me from the second I voted them out, despite the fact they started confrontation with me. While you could put something like this down to social play, I don't think that makes sense here, if jury members couldn't even be bothered to deal with ftc and read to have an influence on their vote, despite missing the almost entirety of merge, I don't think they are earnestly voting for the best player here. Whether eli is the best or not debate aside, votes like this certainly aren't going to him for being the best player, but rather because they desire for him to win for whatever reason that we could probably all guess.

To zach: I think his vote kind of makes sense here from his pov, tbz obviously tossed their relationship and he feels ryo played bad. That leaves myself and eli, zach believes I played unfairly and wasn't trying to win, but I was and anyone who knows me from eimm knows im hyper competitive. So I believe that zachs vote goes to eli here on the basis that all the other 3 are undeserving on a principle reason. That being said, I wish zach was more willing to engage with me, because I really don't agree with his thought process regarding me being a pregame only person, certainly on the ftc I am outdone by others in this regard I believe.

No bad blood with zach, but it is a huge regret for me if people see my game as some pregame circle jerk. I hope at least you guys from separatists disagree and believe I played fairly.

Ayia These were the posts you looked for, is it ok if you read this and I will answer follow up questions after. You may have already read some by now properly.

I see ryo commenting on this and with reference to what he says about eli I do kind of agree. I do think ryo needed eli out because it makers his game far more independent and gives him more agency beyond the torin boot who everyone wanted. That being said I would say ryo is the second most deserving here after myself.

I love eli but I would go as far to say he was the weakest play wise at f7, not just f4. Maybe you can make an argument for tbz but I do feel like tbz's social game had more branches and was less indiviudally focused on one spot to survive.

Aside from that, torin and clouds probably just win if they are on ftc, they had great individual games as well as high threat levels so these were priorities I definitely wanted as far bigger threats gameplay wise than eli. Comparing you to eli, as the final person at f7, I think you were similar in threat level. Both have a "power player" org label, and both have similar pregame connections that you could probably pick up, if not on a free then on a similar difficulty level the same votes as eli. (Or similarly)

That being said, I think you played more individually and would have had more to talk about if you made it to ftc, you had stronger play and more independent agency than eli I feel, as well as being very independent from my own play. For this reason I prefer eli on the ftc than you.

That being said you were the fifth if this was an f5 for me, and everyone else on this ftc actually wanted you here. Tbz wanted you over eli, as did ryo. Eli wanted you over ryo. It is my blame you aren't here probably for the most part, but I felt this was the council that relied on my gameplay most so it was the one I wanted. You might remember at about f6 you thought you were guarenteed but I warned you this is not necessarily true that I was considering not taking you, which tbh I felt really bad about at the time and did have doubts because we had come a lot further together this game as friends, but I do think you probably would have had a stronger argument against me than others.

For the record this also ties into you mentioning about many strong players in this game. You are so right and I agree, everyone who made merge did so on merit and there isn't a single bad player. That being said to say eli shouldn't be on ftc because he is a strong player, is kinda silly to me. Everyone here is a big threat and for that reason I knew my speech had to rely on the game I played compared to others, not the subjective perceived capabilities of everyone in a vacuum.

Eli is probably the best player all round player on this ftc, but he is here because he played the worst game. If you would have rathered face torin or clouds etc who played actual amazing games had you had the choice, I would be shocked. But I am also kind of interested to hear if that is the case.

 

[Ayia]

You told me I was screwed at multiple points in the game; you told me it was impossible for me to make FTC if I took out Psy at f8 and thought I was screwed at F5 had Eli won immunity which he did. If you think my game awareness was poor then we have a fundamental disagreement.

I replied to your question of what I believed my biggest mistake was which could show a lack of game awareness in that instance but as a whole if you get to FTC and aren’t a goat good game awareness is something you need to have.

In regards to Eli, all of us finalists are aware that the jury sees him as an all powerful figure but he did play the weakest game out of us 4 and I told you that you played a better game than Eli as well. I’m aware I likely don’t have your vote, but I honestly do appreciate you asking me questions because it helps me clear up misconceptions + my own thoughts on the game. Thank you zach

hiii I just checked our entire 1-on-1 from our post f8 vote convo onwards and not once did I even insinuate that you were in danger of being voted out, can you provide me logs in dms of where I said this? I did actually pose one hypothetical question that might be construed as me insinuating this but context demonstrates that I wasn't saying you'd get voted out. also it's a small thing in a sea of me saying you'll lose at FTC if you vote wrong not that you'll get voted out at f5 lol

 

[Ayia]

Ayia These were the posts you looked for, is it ok if you read this and I will answer follow up questions after. You may have already read some by now properly.

I see ryo commenting on this and with reference to what he says about eli I do kind of agree. I do think ryo needed eli out because it makers his game far more independent and gives him more agency beyond the torin boot who everyone wanted. That being said I would say ryo is the second most deserving here after myself.

I love eli but I would go as far to say he was the weakest play wise at f7, not just f4. Maybe you can make an argument for tbz but I do feel like tbz's social game had more branches and was less indiviudally focused on one spot to survive.

Aside from that, torin and clouds probably just win if they are on ftc, they had great individual games as well as high threat levels so these were priorities I definitely wanted as far bigger threats gameplay wise than eli. Comparing you to eli, as the final person at f7, I think you were similar in threat level. Both have a "power player" org label, and both have similar pregame connections that you could probably pick up, if not on a free then on a similar difficulty level the same votes as eli. (Or similarly)

That being said, I think you played more individually and would have had more to talk about if you made it to ftc, you had stronger play and more independent agency than eli I feel, as well as being very independent from my own play. For this reason I prefer eli on the ftc than you.

That being said you were the fifth if this was an f5 for me, and everyone else on this ftc actually wanted you here. Tbz wanted you over eli, as did ryo. Eli wanted you over ryo. It is my blame you aren't here probably for the most part, but I felt this was the council that relied on my gameplay most so it was the one I wanted. You might remember at about f6 you thought you were guarenteed but I warned you this is not necessarily true that I was considering not taking you, which tbh I felt really bad about at the time and did have doubts because we had come a lot further together this game as friends, but I do think you probably would have had a stronger argument against me than others.

For the record this also ties into you mentioning about many strong players in this game. You are so right and I agree, everyone who made merge did so on merit and there isn't a single bad player. That being said to say eli shouldn't be on ftc because he is a strong player, is kinda silly to me. Everyone here is a big threat and for that reason I knew my speech had to rely on the game I played compared to others, not the subjective perceived capabilities of everyone in a vacuum.

Eli is probably the best player all round player on this ftc, but he is here because he played the worst game. If you would have rathered face torin or clouds etc who played actual amazing games had you had the choice, I would be shocked. But I am also kind of interested to hear if that is the case.

okay I read everything and you did answer a couple of those questions, but I still have one lingering key one that I'll rephrase so it's clear what I'm looking for:
I know you have an argument that you had a lot of control over the game, but can you demonstrate a few instances (other than F5 bc obviously you were going to go with your predetermined F4) in which this control undeniably affected the game? In other words, what moves did you make that were explicitly yours?

p.s. I'm glad you at least understand why I felt the way I did going into this FTC, that is actually super validating coming from a finalist. There are lots of opinions about me as a juror but I definitely don't want to be seen as a juror that votes based on non-game related things. appreciate it

 

[Duskfall98]

okay I read everything and you did answer a couple of those questions, but I still have one lingering key one that I'll rephrase so it's clear what I'm looking for:
I know you have an argument that you had a lot of control over the game, but can you demonstrate a few instances (other than F5 bc obviously you were going to go with your predetermined F4) in which this control undeniably affected the game? In other words, what moves did you make that were explicitly yours?

p.s. I'm glad you at least understand why I felt the way I did going into this FTC, that is actually super validating coming from a finalist. There are lots of opinions about me as a juror but I definitely don't want to be seen as a juror that votes based on non-game related things. appreciate it

No problem, I don't know if everyone on the jury is unbias ofc but I don't think youre a terrible offender here, especially compared to others!

Now, as I have said before I beleive there are lots of instances that favoured me and eli, or my and ryo, or all three. It was my ability to flip between these relationships and force them to take turns with my attention that I think my game so strong. As eli said, in survivor, there is a situation where everyones votes counts. My control is based on the vote going on a favoured target for me each time consistently post merge, unlike anyone else in the game.

That being said, I think I did have a chance to show off my individual play at f9, where I pushed totters. At this point in the game both eli and ryo had totters in their ideal f4, ryo for obvious reasons and eli felt his game was weak and there weren't many he could be (his name hadn't really come up at this point at all so his ftc argument at f8 and f6 hadn't occurred yet).

That being said, eli's preferred vote was a strong player, so that he could sit back and hopefully goat some people to ftc. Ryo and totters; I don't need to explain their relationship before. At the start of the phase, eli wanted a zach vote I believe, whereas ryo was still on his psy push at this stage. Their ideal desires here are not so significant but the main point is the fact the totters vote was pushed through, who was my number 1 vote out. I felt like totters going, when ryo and eli believed that he was so important to their wincon helped tank their current plans a lot. At this point totters was the only person in the game I hadn't had a good alliance with and strong dynamic.

Although totters probably wasn't much of an endgame threat, his vote let me establish control and significantly harm the plans of ryo and eli. I believed totters had more going on than others suspected at the time also, though ryo trusted him I was suspicious he had plans elsewhere, because I know totters is a capable player and not going to lay down and die. It turned out that he also had a good alliance with clouds after that, so my instincts were actually correct. Although totters probably is someone I can beat at endgame, he had a unique spot where his existence harmed my game, with him being a strong number with eli, ryo or clouds should any of them choose to flip on me eventually. I was really happy to get this vote through.

That being said, I mentioned this earlier but at 10 minutes to dl totters had 5 votes on him and torin had 4. I knew totters was the boot but I wanted to use this opportunity gain even more favour, as torin and clouds duo had recently come to light. I pressure torin, using the deadline panic as a weapon, saying I believed there was one more vote on him and he was the person with 5. This worked wonderfully, despite torin doubting me at first because it forced clouds to make a snap decision to play right at the deadline. He didn't really have a chance to think if it was optimal or not.

That being said, tbz upon learning this (this is backed up in ryo's ftc dialogue), switched to vote torin to try gain jury favour with totters, as he felt he was more likely to get the vote if he had not been on totters for the boot. That being said, had torin not been idoled, he would have still only had 4 votes, again if you doubt this refer to ryo's dialogue. He has mentioned it being the case while he was trying to appeal for totters jury vote earlier.

That being said, I think this f9 play shows how I stepped out from eli and ryo in a way they never did with me. I was able to not just push their ally from under their noses, but someone who they felt should be on their ideal ftc to win the game. I also managed to flush the idol, which allowed for clouds to be voted at f7. I believe this should earn my some credit for the clouds vote later individually, as it was only possible due to my pressure play.

If clouds still had his idol at f7, I genuinely believe the whole game could've come crashing down and clouds or torin could win. Clouds would be able to use his idol at f7 to coinflip between him and torin, to force the vote elsewhere that he wanted imo. It is hard to predict where this could have gone but if clouds had been allowed to idol gambit save himself and torin at f7, the f6 with both them alive becomes ridiculously harder. One of them would be guaranteed a shot at immunity at f5 at that point and I believe they both had far stronger games than anyone I took to the ftc with me.

 

[RyoDio]

hiii I just checked our entire 1-on-1 from our post f8 vote convo onwards and not once did I even insinuate that you were in danger of being voted out, can you provide me logs in dms of where I said this? I did actually pose one hypothetical question that might be construed as me insinuating this but context demonstrates that I wasn't saying you'd get voted out. also it's a small thing in a sea of me saying you'll lose at FTC if you vote wrong not that you'll get voted out at f5 lol

the f8 is convo is the first event I was referencing, yes I interpreted you saying “making a play on Psy won’t work and will tank your chances at FTC” as “your play won’t work”(which it did) and “you won’t make FTC” which I see can double as “you can make FTC and lose it”

As for F5, obviously you’re not gonna tell me “I expect you to go here because you booted torin at f6” but torin, tbz, and Tommy all told me you expected me out at f5, you certainly didn’t seem like you expected to go out at f5, and iirc you hinted to me that I might be vulnerable but overall yeah.

I assume you’re one of the “ryo lacks game awareness” advocates and when you say I lack game awareness you reference how I dealt with Eli because I don’t see what else would lead you to that conclusion, but honestly I agree with what Tommy said about Eli probably being the best overall player but being the one with the weakest bigvivor game at F7. And I think we both had a lot of elaboration on that topic.

If you have any other examples than Eli + f10 I’m ofc down to spar with you and I’ll try to be as brutally honest as possible.

 

[Nuxl]

PLS i make one lighthearted comment towards tommy and he says im upset w him i cant

i just woke up and will fully move soon, so bbl!

 

[Duskfall98]

PLS i make one lighthearted comment towards tommy and he says im upset w him i cant

i just woke up and will fully move soon, so bbl!

o

 

[madmaxfurytoad]

BBL stands for Brandon’s being loved right

 

[Psypsypsypsypsythe]

it stands for brandons bald lhead

 

[madmaxfurytoad]

it stands for brandons bald lhead

Die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die die

 

[madmaxfurytoad]

In seriousness I don’t feel like I have much else to ask any of you three until this whole Eli vs Tommy thing has more light shed on it (mostly from Eli’s perspective), I think. So uh yea keep doing that

 

[Duskfall98]

I am also waiting on Eli because I am as in dark as you about what he will say beyond "I had good allies and survived votes"

 

[Duskfall98]

let's just assume he is so frozen by my truth bomb that he has no idea how to respond!!!!