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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)
- Thread starter TPP
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The problem is the huge amount of luck that's involved. As a competitive community, we try to eliminate (where possible) luck based strategies that have no counterplay (see Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause). I think it's more than fair for people to be arguing for this, as it's obviously un-ncompetitive, which I think needs to be made clear (as opposed to broken). Something doesn't have to be broken to be looked at for a ban, the most recent example I can think of is Moody Glalie.
I'm sorry for the one-liner, but Nasty Plot is a stat stage change, so it's considered in calculation.
The mon very clearly isn't broken, and that isn't what I (or anyone else hopefully) is arguing. I just think that it is uncompetitive as shit, as per ShootingStarmie's post. It is an entirely luck based mon, which you can't say for many other mons that are getting usage right now. That was the reason for the discussion.
I mean this is significantly less reliable luck than serene grace, and its ridiculously less overpowered than moody. We've lived with togekiss for ten years and its haxy as shit but we all know its not impactful enough to matter in the long term.
edit: ok or kings rock cloyster then is pretty comparable. there was serious ban discussion for a little while in early SS, but it fell off the earth. essentially can't be outsped, has a 41% chance to flinch. that's objectively a more powerful version of outspeeding 40% of the time but letting the opponent move after you do.
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The main difference is counter play. Togekiss can be out-sped, nullifying Flinches altogether, and special walls like Blissey and Tyranitar are tanky enough to absorb multiple Air Slashes. Players against Slowbro don't really have this option, as the counter play is relying on Quick Draw not activating, hence why its a different form of luck. This falls more under the lines of relying on OHKO moves missing, or relying on Double Team to cause your opponent to miss, both of which have been banned by smogon.
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Yes. OLT ended within the last week, relax.
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I appreciate the the discussion of Slowbro-Galar, but on another note: has anyone realized Slowbro has entirely died out? We hyped it up as an amazing pivot with Teleport + Regenerator, but it has been quite underwhelming. Has anyone been using it successfully and do you guys think it may be revitalized soon?
Katy
Banned deucer.
I personally did not use
in a while, at the release of it, i built many teams with it, but with urshifu, dragapult and better defensive pivots like toxapex which offers also regenerator + recovery in recover and a scald-burn chance and knock off it is much superior. sure the teleport aspect is great and all, but it can be done by hdb-blissey as well. i also feel like slowbro might be underwhelming currently, as pkmn like gengar, toxtricity and rillaboom are thriving so much in usage that slowbro isn't a needed glue-mon at all. it just gets overwhelmed by these many threats.considering all these factor i didnt use slowbro at all recently nor do i have seen it a lot on the ladder.
I think that Re-Testing Cinderace now is just saying "Hey, use him for 2 weeks because it will get banned again". You know there aren't any changes in the Metagame since it left the tier.
In my opinon it sould be re-tested when the 2nd DLC drops, with more threats and posible counters it may be viable in OU, but nowadays is imposible that it stays in OU.
I can see more viable now to Suspect Toxapex rather than re-testing Cinderace.
In my opinon it sould be re-tested when the 2nd DLC drops, with more threats and posible counters it may be viable in OU, but nowadays is imposible that it stays in OU.
I can see more viable now to Suspect Toxapex rather than re-testing Cinderace.
This does not make sense to me at all. Let's start with the bolded point: we just experienced more metagame shifts over the last month of OLT than we have had at any point besides right after DLC. The metagame right now looks entirely different than when it did when Cinderace got quickbanned. Your claim is simply wrong.
Second off, the whole point of the retest is so that people can actually vote on Cinderace. It is ideal that it happens closer to the initial ban than in a very different metagame. You and a lot of others seem to be totally misconstruing the intention of the initial ban; this is the same logic that was previously used for Melmetal and elaborated on in both the Cinderace and Melmetal ban posts. There is such a large amount of resistance to a handful of people on the council deciding the ultimate fate of a Pokemon. We banned it because we had a large, vocal majority of the playerbase believing it was broken and we were unanimous, but that does not mean we can skip the process. Much on the contrary: it granted us an opportunity to let the metagame develop and give Cinderace a proper retest when things settled. You can agree or disagree with the process, but this is very much not the place to do that for obvious reasons. Saying that the Cinderace retest should be delayed is essentially asking for suspect manipulation though.
I would not object to retesting it or anything else after the second DLC drops if it is deemed appropriate then, but calling for that or speculating that now is absolutely pointless. Theorymon is not something we base any decisions off of and this is all an afterthought now because of that.
I still support a Toxapex suspect, but I also think it is far from the most pressing or problematic thing. First off, Cinderace's retest has to be sooner rather than later for the reasons above. Second off, Toxapex has seen a steady decline in usage and effectiveness ever since OLT ended. Why? Because the metagame went from being centered around HO and stall to being centered around balance. Balance, when not restricted by the extremes of the metagame, has so much more room to integrate ways to abuse Pokemon like Toxapex or other similarly functioning walls (i.e: Amoonguss). Let's go through some things surging in usage right now that previously were less effective due to things like HO being prominent: Reuniclus, Calm Mind + Thunder(bolt) Clefable, Trick + Sticky Barb Clefable, Kyurem (Specs in particular), Teleport in to things like Rhyperior or Alakazam, Zarude (more fringe viable understandably), and Spikes balance, which limits Toxapex a ton.
To sum up my opinion: I believe Toxapex is far more problematic in a metagame where the extremes (stall and HO) are dominant than it is in a metagame where you see lots of balance. Balance can focus on taking advantage of it and other walls if it is not as limited by the extremes being super prominent and this also prompts healthy metagame evolution. Ever since OLT ended, we have seen a ton of this. I still believe Toxapex warrants a suspect because there was a recent metagame state that made it problematic, but I am not sure if I would be as pro-ban now as I once was.
On the contrary, I believe Pokemon like Clefable (now seeing more usage than it was even at its peak before DLC and for a whole slew of reasons that I can get in to in a different post, but obviously usage alone =/= banworthiness -- there's a lot to this to unpack) and Urshifu are also closer to broken than Toxapex at this point.
I get it -- everyone is on the Toxapex suspect bandwagon ever since I posted about it a month or two ago and I think this is a valid stance, but I also think that you have to be receptive to metagame evolution shifting the status of Pokemon and it seems like many people are not.
Wasn't sure whether to post this in the Good Cores thread or here, but since this is untested in this meta, I thought it was more appropriate here
Slowbro + Weezing Galar
With the Cinderace suspect test being announced, I thought it'd be fitting to post a core that revolves around dealing with Cinderace. This is a core that I actually found success with recently in UU, and with Cinderace and Urshifu expected to be everywhere, this core should counteract that. Slowbro has recently been falling on usage, but now serves as one the the best answers to Cinderace, being able to shrug off Pryo Ball and High Jump Kick, and has the ability to threaten back with Scald. Slowbro does struggle with Dark-types like Urshifu and Tyranitar, so Weezing-Galar makes for an excellent teammate. Weezing-Galar is able to consistently check Urshifu, and acts as a decent cleric for Slowbro should it ever be burned or poisoned. Weezing Galar can also absorb Bug and Grass-type attacks aimed at Slowbro, while Slowbro can absorb Steel and Psychic-type attacks aimed at Weezing-Galar.
Don't have too much to say about this core, as this is very early days within the suspect test, I just thought I'd share what looks like to be a good core. Some issues would be Ghost-types such as Aegislash, so Mandibuzz or Tyranitar could be a good partner for this core (Tyranitar in particular, as I expect to see Sun teams surge in usage).
Slowbro + Weezing Galar
Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Teleport
Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Aromatherapy
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Teleport
Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Aromatherapy
Don't have too much to say about this core, as this is very early days within the suspect test, I just thought I'd share what looks like to be a good core. Some issues would be Ghost-types such as Aegislash, so Mandibuzz or Tyranitar could be a good partner for this core (Tyranitar in particular, as I expect to see Sun teams surge in usage).
It all depends on what Pokémon come back, but based on leaks a certain flaming chicken might come back after 10 years...
That depends on what happens with the Cinderace re-test, I think. It's probably going to remain banned, but if by some miracle it gets unbanned, then we will have to give it a while for the meta to reshape itself afterwards to see what the primary issues are now. It would be impossible to evaluate and then re-test something else before new DLC drops.
If it stays banned, then we probably don't need to wait too long if anything is a pressing concern immediately to test. But, by the time we do another suspect test, it's almost going to be DLC time, so may just be better to wait (It would be late October by the time another suspect test was started and completed, even if it happens immediately). I don't know why they don't like to give specific dates for release, but Crown Tundra is still slated for November release, so banning something potentially 1-2 weeks before new pokemon are introduced is probably not worth the time. So, it's possible, but not likely imo.
Sorry, but all of the Pokemon that shifted up to OU in September (Gengar, Aegislash, Primarina, Hat, Kyurem, Necrozma, Skarm, Tar, and Tox) are at least 2HKO'd by any of Pyro Ball, HJK, Gunk Shot, and U-turn. In fact, the fact that these Pokemon are present in the tier means Cinderace has way more of a leeway in taking teams apart, which makes the suspect tilt even further toward ban.
You said yourself that the metagame now is very different than when the quickban happened, which goes against the logic of testing it as soon as possible- the DLC would bring many more changes to the metagame, which has already anyway happened as you yourself stated. So why does it matter that we suspect it now?
Wait, the metagame has now shifted to balance? Which is what the metagame pre-OLT favored? You said yourself that the metagame has changed so much, but right below that state that the favored playstyle between the quickban and now is the same. Cinderace was considered to be broken pre-OLT, and now that the HO/Stall extremes are not as popular, it would make sense that it's still broken.
I've been reading this thread for a while, and the lack of council involvement apart from yourself in addition to the confusing timing of the suspect is frustrating for many. The logic of suspecting Cinderace when so little has obviously changed between then and now is lost on me. I honestly don't believe that people on the council are so entrenched in Smogon that they have some "agenda" for testing certain mons. However, the continued pushing of the pre-DLC suspect and the lack of action on clear problems like Clef, Pex etc has obviously left gen 8 OU in an unfortunate state.
So anybody has thoughts on the new mons coming with Crown Tundra?
Anyway, i believe ace has a chance to stay, but he is an incredible mon, and with our lack of powercreep, i also believeve that he won't come back at least until december or so.
Anyway, i believe ace has a chance to stay, but he is an incredible mon, and with our lack of powercreep, i also believeve that he won't come back at least until december or so.
When on suspect test, he can run the mon even if he's not testing
Katy
Banned deucer.
hey,
such a question probably fits more into this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3656259/
But to answer your question, the mon in question (which gets suspected) will always be legal on the ladder, as it gives plenty of players a better inside-view about this particular mon. therefore they can decide for themselves wether the suspected mon is still too good for the metagame or not and therefore they can discuss better in the specific suspect thread about cinderace.
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I kind of agree with this post, but I definitely understand the OU council's decision. Cinderace wasn't given a fair test in this specific metagame since the community was not included in the decision-making. Almost nothing deserves to be quickbanned.
However, one of the biggest problems this generation in regards to tiering is the DLCs/Home. At the start of a new meta, if you would use arguments like "wait for DLC2 before suspecting Magearna", you would be met with counterarguments like "we care about the current meta; it can just be retested in the next DLC". But for the cases of Arena Trap and Clefable, they weren't suspected because the metas they were a problem in (pre-home and pre-DLC1 respectively) had other threats that needed to be looked at first. It's obvious that those two should have been suspected before the huge meta shifts, but due to the meta only lasting like 3-4 months, they had to postpone them to see if they can be balanced in the new meta.
I personally would agree to the Cinderace retest if things aren't as time constricting, but after reading this forum and seeing many people complain about Clef, Urshifu-S and Toxapex, this would just lead to another Arena Trap/pre-DLC Clef situation where something that might be banworthy for this specific metagame escapes a potential suspect just because of a huge metagame change.
It would be nice to use this generation as tiering precedence for future games with DLCs. Despite the split reactions, I agreed with the decision of waiting for the cases of Arena Trap and pre-DLC Clef because there is a chance that they may be balanced by the new metagame and retesting them back once the DLCs are released would be a waste of time, but seeing as we would be stuck with the DLC2 metagame for a year until the next Pokémon game, it would be better if all retests would be done on the final DLC. Clef (kinda) proved to be not as banworthy as it was pre-DLC, so if it was banned in the Home meta we wouldn't have Clefable for a few months or even waste time in this DLC trying to retest it. This is not the case with the DLC2 though. We would have plenty of time for suspects and retests, so I wouldn't mind if the council was more proactive than usual for the DLC1 meta. I honestly wouldn't like it if one Pokémon who deserves to be suspected this DLC evades it again because of the lack of time.
Edit: I forgot to mention but at the beginning of the last DLC, it would be better to have a series of unbans rather than individual retest because Pokémon like Melmetal and Magearna were only banworthy on the meta they were banned in. Doing individual retests would defeat the purpose of suspecting Pokémon that was banned in previous metagames becase you could have just waited for a huge DLC metagame shift to balance out the threats.
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heatmoron
Banned deucer.
was never a fan of Heatmor, a mon with bad bulk, bad speed, and mediocre attacking stats. However I have discovered that Heatmor actually has some excellent defensive niches in OU: It beats Volcarona and kinda Cinderace (at the time of this post cinderace is being suspected) Please consider the following post to see some proof.
Heatmor is the closest thing to an actual counter Volcarona has (meaning it beats literally every volc set, safeguard, etc...) Heatmor has multiple defensive spreads it can run to defeat Volc and Cinderace, along with being an excellent check to Rotom-H.
Heatmor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Fire Lash
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Punch
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Heatmor: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. lol
This is the anti-volc spread. What distinguishes Heatmor from other Flash Fire users? Heatmor gets access to Rock Tomb, Sucker Punch, and Fire Lash. These moves are always 100% required on any Heatmor set in OU, (rock tomb, sucker, and fire lash) and the fourth move is extremely versatile. You can run Drain Punch to smack Tyrannitar, Giga Drain to do signifigant damage to Seismitoad even unvinvested, and other stuff. Uninvested Rock Tomb will always put offensive volc in sucker punch range, and defensive volc you can just rock tomb again.
Heatmor has a significantly more difficult time dealing with Cinderace, and get outright 2HKOd by it, but you can mess with hjk with Protect, and try to burn it with wisp.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatmor: 183-216 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO. ouch
heatmor may be completely outclassed by the other mon who's name begins with "heat" but that doesnt exist yet. next time you get 6-0d by cinderace or volcarona, give Heatmor a try. also heatmor is dead weight against stall teams.
Heatmor is the closest thing to an actual counter Volcarona has (meaning it beats literally every volc set, safeguard, etc...) Heatmor has multiple defensive spreads it can run to defeat Volc and Cinderace, along with being an excellent check to Rotom-H.
Heatmor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Fire Lash
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Punch
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Heatmor: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. lol
This is the anti-volc spread. What distinguishes Heatmor from other Flash Fire users? Heatmor gets access to Rock Tomb, Sucker Punch, and Fire Lash. These moves are always 100% required on any Heatmor set in OU, (rock tomb, sucker, and fire lash) and the fourth move is extremely versatile. You can run Drain Punch to smack Tyrannitar, Giga Drain to do signifigant damage to Seismitoad even unvinvested, and other stuff. Uninvested Rock Tomb will always put offensive volc in sucker punch range, and defensive volc you can just rock tomb again.
Heatmor has a significantly more difficult time dealing with Cinderace, and get outright 2HKOd by it, but you can mess with hjk with Protect, and try to burn it with wisp.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatmor: 183-216 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO. ouch
heatmor may be completely outclassed by the other mon who's name begins with "heat" but that doesnt exist yet. next time you get 6-0d by cinderace or volcarona, give Heatmor a try. also heatmor is dead weight against stall teams.
Heatmor does little that Centiskorch can't already do. Coil, Knock Off and actual stats make it a significantly more threatening presence than a weak Sucker Punch.
Well yes but you can't run av centi because you must have hdb, but imo they are both so heat and meh at the same momet
Heatmor needs Boots too.
You simply can't run Assault Vest Pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock, as your opponent can just bench Volcarona until the Vested mon has been worn down by hazards, or switch and switch out to force hazard chip. Given Rock Tomb isn't even an OHKO...
0 Atk Heatmor Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 240-284 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, nice try but stick to Rotom-H and SpD TTar.
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