So whats the go with Drizzile?
Drizzile is unfortunately not viable here. It does have a good SPATK and decent speed stat, but it's special movepool is so thin, outside of water attacks. You even lack ice beam! And it's physical attack is not high enough to take advantage of its physical movepool either. The only way to use Drizzile is a screen set, with Light Screen, Reflect, Surf and U-turn, but Morgrem does that better (well except the pivoting). So yh, Drizzile is not really usable here.So whats the go with Drizzile?
Hello,I'm making this post to explain why Pyukumuku is broken. I see a lot of people complain about Mareanie or Eiscue, but both of these mons are far easier to handle. Reasoning on Mareanie or Eiscue has already been provided by the council, so I won't be discussing them.
Pyukumuku is an incredibly potent stallmon with very little counterplay. Now, I don't want to ban it because it's a stallmon, unlike a lot of people that get easily frustrated by stall. I have nothing against stall and am not making this post out of frustration, but rather because of my experience with (making) stall teams. There is a large number of ways to deal with stall, and good stallmons find ways to predict, counter or halt some of these methods. The problem with Pyukumuku is that almost none of them work:
While Haze is indeed useless against Pyukumuku (except wasting some of its PPs), Phazing is one of the most reliable way to deal with Block Pyukumuku, since they forgo Toxic and therefore only rely on PP-stalling. Cufant is a noteworthy phazer, since thanks to its Toxic-immunity it doesn't fear anything from Pyukumuku and freely setup SR on its face and scout for its set.(P)Hazing: Pyukumuku does not rely on setup.
While agree that it can hard to Toxic Pyukumku against stall teams since they all carry Toxic-immunities and a Toxic-Spikes absorber, Rest isn't a miraculous solution to poison. What makes Pyukumuku very strong is its ability to avoid the 2HKO from a lot of sweepers, therefore consistently walling them with Recover. However, if Pyukumuku didn't trap the opponent with Block before it uses Rest, you can switch-in Pokemon that offensively pressure Pyukumuku (I'll list some of them latter) and therefore prevent it from burning its Rest turns.Toxic (Spikes): It commonly carries rest for this purpose and good stall teams have a poison type and/or hazard control.
I group them togethere because you actually use setup to PP-stall Pyukumuku. A lot of stall teams exclusively rely on Pyukumuku to deal with some very powerful sweepers such as Wartortle and Eiscue. Pyukumuku can most of the time deal with one of them with either PP- or Toxic-stalling, but it can't be outstalled by several of them.Setup: Sadly, my preferred way of dealing with stall is rendered completely useless by Unaware.
PP-stalling it: using Rest, it can effectively conserve its own PP and Block+Spite can make short work of your own.
missangelic gave you a great list of reliable Pokemon that can at least 2HKO Pyukumuku. Additionally, even if Pyukumuku can take them out with Counter/Mirror Coat, it still takes massive damage from the hit and is usually to low on health to find another opportunity to Recover.Brute Force: With the removal of Silvally-Electric, there are no potent electric types in ZU. You might think that Silvally-Grass would be an answer, but not only do a lot of Silvallies rely on Swords Dance, Pyukumuku can simply poison them and get out. On top of that, it could also suddenly reveal Counter or Mirror Coat, taking down your Silvally.
You forgot Torracat and Morgrem, that can also both run Nasty Plot to threaten stall teams. Also with Taunt, you can easily scout if Pyukumuku has Counter or Mirror Coat.Taunt: While nothing except Linoone or sometimes Pyukumuku itself usally carries Taunt, the window for exploiting it is small, so staying in with Linoone and attacking could work. However, since Counter is not classified as a status move, carrying Counter could negate this strategy.
Yeah you're right, nothing really runs Encore here.Encore: Nothing carries Encore, and even if it did, exploiting it would be hard due to setup not working and the possiblity of locking it into something detrimental like Toxic, Recover, Rest, Spite, Counter or Mirror Coat.
That being said, removing Mareanie does not solve the problem that is Tspikes, and Mareanie itself is not broken either in my opinion. [...] While Toxic Spikes are a nuisance, I believe we must continue to explore the meta and finding ways to play around Mareanie+Tspikes.
I don’t believe we have fully explored all of our options.
Toxic Spikes are extremely oppressive in the current metagame and Mareanie is easily the best setter available. [...], and I don’t believe that banning Mareanie will fix the issue of the dominance of Toxic Spikes - this is something that can only be resolved over time.
Oustide of UC, I understand from this quotes that council members thought that ZU needed time to find answers to the T-Spikes issue. I'd like to know if some people have find other answers than playing HO or using Gloom/Ivysaur/Mareanie/Natu. Gloom/Ivysaur don't bring much utility outside of checking GrassVally and absorbing TSpikes, and I'd rather run something else in most of my teams. In addition, some Mareanie started to tec Natu with Gunk Shot (that also has other uses like 2HKO GrassVally), which makes Natu even harder to fit in a team (seriously Natu is super frail especially once Mareanie knocked its Eviolite). Since ElecVally, I only saw the issue growing. Not only was ElecVally the main way of offensively pressure Mareanie, but also a lot of Pokémon that were used to check ElecVally (Whiscash, Mudbray, Gloom) also pressured Mareanie. According to both 5gen and Durza, banning Mareanie won't solve the T-Spikes issue, but I'd like to know what they suggest to solve it outside of waiting to find more counterplays. I'm not confident that we'll find other stuffs to beat T-Spikes, and I really think we should ban Mareanie. Some of the council members theorized that if Mareanie gets banned, other T-Spikes users will takes its place. What's the problem with that? We could still revisited the ban, i.e. unban Mareanie and ban T-Spikes instead. Also I honestly doubt that Koffing, Shellmet, Trubbish, or Skorupi will be as effective or problematic as Mareanie, but anyway tiering should be based on the current metagame where Mareanie's T-Spikes are oppressive., I don’t see the good in banning Mare. It only prolongs a bigger issue with the centralization of Toxic Spikes and the limited absorbers / removers, which is a problem that needs more time and a larger scope to address fully.
The ones that I take issue with here are Gloom, Ivysaur and Charjabug, who usally run defensive investment and just don't have the required power to brute-force Pyukumuku. (and Thwackey without its HA is just bad in general) Pyukumuku also has enough bulk to withstand non-STAB attacks. Between all of the non-STAB options, Gastly is the only good one imo because of Toxic immunity and Trick shenanigans. Thunderbolt or Grass Pledge on Silvally just don't do enough, even against physdef Pyukumuku. Going back to the STAB options, I like this Glalie set as an answer to Pyukumuku: This does demonstrate though, that you will need a dedicated answer to Pyukumuku and good options are limited.While I definitely agree that is a strong choice in ZU right now, I would not say it's unbeatable. -Grass, , , , , , , , and all threaten it with their STAB attacks, and each can be fit on a variety of different archetypes. Strong attackers and Pokemon with strong coverage options like , -Ice, , and also threaten Pyukumuku and make it hesitant to switch in, even against these potentially threatening setup sweepers.
Unless you have rest, the only viable option here (at least against Toxic Pyukumuku) is my baby, Stored Power Duosion. I'm suprised I forgot about this, since it beats every set but Taunt Pyukumuku. Since a lot of players underestimate SP or are unfamiliar with it, they won't be afraid of setup moves, and even with Unaware, a 380 bp move (or 260 without Acid Armor) from the mon with the highest spatk in the tier drops hard.Running setup in front of Pyukumuku also isn't entirely impossible. , , , and can all get away with setting up in its face thanks to Stored Power. Duosion even has the luxury of Magic Guard, which totally shields it from Toxic.
The fact that the highest laddered player needed two powerful sweepers with Substitute to defeat a "too passive" cucumber kinda shows what I'm talking about. This is the only way to use setup if there is a Pyukumuku on the oppsing team. Every time you try to set up, the opponent just plops down this cucumber and is like: Whatcha gonna do now, huh? Even if you have something like Silvgrass, the opponent can just go into something better. Now you might be thinking: I can just SD and kill whatever comes in, right? But no, imagine it predicts that and goes for Toxic. Congratulations, your Silvally is now screwed. If an opposing Pyukumuku is still alive, setup becomes very difficult to pull off. While pp-stalling a Pyukumuku with an already set up sweeper is usallly a gg, if it effectively uses Spite and Rest, it can waste 8 opposing pp for 2 of its own. You will need multiple high-pp setup sweepers to defeat Pyukumuku this way.I group them togethere because you actually use setup to PP-stall Pyukumuku. A lot of stall teams exclusively rely on Pyukumuku to deal with some very powerful sweepers such as Wartortle and Eiscue. Pyukumuku can most of the time deal with one of them with either PP- or Toxic-stalling, but it can't be outstalled by several of them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1117705365 Here you can see Ho3n outstalling Pyukumuku with SubNP Oranguru and SubBD Eiscue, that are both very effective breakers even outside of the Pyukumuku match-up.
Allow me to add a few things. Yes Gloom, Ivysaur and Charja are all passive, but Gloom and Ivysaur carry Giga drain, while Charja carries Volt Switch. Gloom and Ivy both carry Sleep Powder and are both imune against toxic, so they can just make it sleep and then 3Ko it with Giga Drain. Due to this, while not the best, they still are answers to Pyukumuku.Hi, I'm back with more on Pyukumuku. Both of the people that replied on my post have given their opinion on Pyukumuku and how to beat it, and I have to say, I agree with a lot of it. I will nevertheless explain what I think is debatable or flawed about these statements.
The ones that I take issue with here are Gloom, Ivysaur and Charjabug, who usally run defensive investment and just don't have the required power to brute-force Pyukumuku. (and Thwackey without its HA is just bad in general) Pyukumuku also has enough bulk to withstand non-STAB attacks. Between all of the non-STAB options, Gastly is the only good one imo because of Toxic immunity and Trick shenanigans. Thunderbolt or Grass Pledge on Silvally just don't do enough, even against physdef Pyukumuku. Going back to the STAB options, I like this Glalie set as an answer to Pyukumuku: This does demonstrate though, that you will need a dedicated answer to Pyukumuku and good options are limited.
Glalie @ Shed Shell/Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Super Fang
- Freeze-Dry
Unless you have rest, the only viable option here (at least against Toxic Pyukumuku) is my baby, Stored Power Duosion. I'm suprised I forgot about this, since it beats every set but Taunt Pyukumuku. Since a lot of players underestimate SP or are unfamiliar with it, they won't be afraid of setup moves, and even with Unaware, a 380 bp move (or 260 without Acid Armor) from the mon with the highest spatk in the tier drops hard.
The fact that the highest laddered player needed two powerful sweepers with Substitute to defeat a "too passive" cucumber kinda shows what I'm talking about. This is the only way to use setup if there is a Pyukumuku on the oppsing team. Every time you try to set up, the opponent just plops down this cucumber and is like: Whatcha gonna do now, huh? Even if you have something like Silvgrass, the opponent can just go into something better. Now you might be thinking: I can just SD and kill whatever comes in, right? But no, imagine it predicts that and goes for Toxic. Congratulations, your Silvally is now screwed. If an opposing Pyukumuku is still alive, setup becomes very difficult to pull off. While pp-stalling a Pyukumuku with an already set up sweeper is usallly a gg, if it effectively uses Spite and Rest, it can waste 8 opposing pp for 2 of its own. You will need multiple high-pp setup sweepers to defeat Pyukumuku this way.
I would also like to point out that while tricking it a choice item is definitely crippling, it can still counter setup just by being there and locking itself into rest or something (yes, this is easier to pp-stall). Giving it a Toxic Orb can actually be a boon in pp-wars, since taking damage is essential to waste 3 turns with one rest. It will go to its rest pp quickly though, but because Toxic has to starts over, this isn't always a problem. Pyukumuku on its own can be dealt with the right movesets, but throw it into a good stall team, and you're in trouble. The pressure from opposing t-spikes or bulky sweepers can prevent you form freely pivoting around the damn thing.
I would like to end this by saying that while I don't have enough experience with Silvally to say anything definitive about it, both my "critics" had a similar opinion on Mareanie. I don't mind setting a high ban requirement for Pyukumuku, but then also do so for Mareanie, which in my opinion isn't nearly as dangerous or annoying as Pyukumuku. I faced a fearsome stall team that successfully used t-spikes Skorupi with rest paired with a heal bell Togetic. And of course, a Pyukumuku to counter all my setup mons. I used a special Grassvally and still lost. (Grass Pledge did 42%) If a lot of people don't want the cucumber banned, then it should at least be S-tier on the VR.
PS: Please don't ban Grassvally too, I need to sleep at night.
Hey. While I appreciate you trying to spark some discussion about a new Pokemon, Slowpoke-G and the rest of the Pokemon in your post are not viable and the post has caused numerous users to give trivial replies (which I have deleted). In the future, please abide by the forum rules and try to spark healthier discussion when you post. ZU's Discord and PS! room are the perfect places for discussions like this.Now that is in ZU maybe this set become somewhat viable. Well it still has and as competition but at least its more viable than dual screens
Bulky Death Fodder
Slowpoke-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Disable
- Whirlpool
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
Also since PU took will is T-Spikes no longer broken?
My opinions.Hello all. The council is holding a quick ban slate on the following: Kadabra, Pincurchin, Tangela, Thievul, and Thwackey. The deadline for our vote is this Sunday.
Although we are aware that all of these Pokemon will most likely rise in the coming tier shift, they are all highly pressing elements in the metagame that need to be addressed by council. We have decided not to vote on Silvally-Ice and Silvally-Rock because they are not worth voting on. The metagame has sufficient answers to both and PU's recent bans on Silvally-Psychic and Silvally-Grass removed half of our Silvally formes, making it much easier to prepare for them.
Feel free to post your thoughts, discussion is always welcome.
We don't have an Extreme Speed user in ZU (well, Zigzagoon but it isn't viable at all) so this is an invalid point tbh.Grassy Glide is SO overrated. Extreme Speed still out-prioritizes it. Also it has an easily exploitable typing. Im kinda on the fence here.
k bye