208 speed with a neutral nature is pretty much the most speed a Talonflame should ever run (unless you really want to make sure you at least tie with an opponents Talon who has dumped everything into speed) as that lets it outspeed Pinsir's Quick Attack. On this type of set though, I don't know if I'd even go that far since investing in HP seems like a more natural idea for a defensive team, but it depends on how much you hate Pinsir. Fire/Flying is a decent defensive typing, so HP lets you get the most out of that as you can and better deal with Fairies, etc. Bulky fires are still really useful for stall
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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I think, on a metagame basis, things are actually looking up. Now that we have the Aegi ban behind us, we can focus on the real broken parts of the meta. I know Mawile's suspect is in the pipeline, and I would really like to lobby for Lando-I's suspect as well. I'm not going to mention Mega Hera because I'm not convinced that he is going to take OU by storm. If he does, we will certainly see a suspect though. All in all, within a few months, I think that stall will become MUCH more manageable to build and play.
To be honest I don't see talon as a good stall poke sure he can check most pokes that cause stall issues like mega Cham, cross and garde but the issue is the support required to switch him in and how quickly he will be worn down. Talon needs to absolutely have rocks off the field to be switching in. Brave bird recoil is going to be a ton of damage to you on top of rocks and is pitifully weak uninvested. It seems a little difficult to be running stall flame as it needs all the attack and quite a bit of speed to be doing its job of outspending things and killing with brave bird. This means it can't heavily invest in bulk without hurting its attack which is pretty mediocre without full investment being only base 81. It's bulk is also pretty poor only having 78/71/68 bulk which is worse is pretty bad no matter how you look at it. By investing in bulk talonflame loses it's niche as a revenge killer.
Next talonflame can't switchin to almost anything due to its rock weakness, being pretty frail meaning it can only check things. This is really bad for stall as stall pokes need to at least counter something as they are pretty passive in nature meaning the opponent can just switch out. The stuff talon is supposed to beat anyway always have at least one thing to take it on. Meaning talonflame most likely will end up switching in after a kill and then switching out after it scares something out. This means you the stall player are now down an important stall mon having to sac something to mega Hera to get talon in. Then have to switch talon out as your opponent switches to something like Ttar, thundurus, or heatran further pressuring your team and losing you a ton of momentum. This is without rocks being up if rocks are up talon is now at a maximum of 51% and had to brave bird the Hera sitting in front of you as a burned +2hera still rampages through most stall teams and brave bird is the safer play which stall is known for making 90+% of the time. So talon really just prolongs the inevitable Hera, Cham, or Garde rampage being unable to switch-in to the things it's supposed to stop. Making it a check at best as well as being worn down way to quick for any good stall poke.
All in all I see talonflame being a mediocre stall mon as it's typing stats, and movepool don't do a hell of a lot in terms of switch-in opportunities. As well as the fact the things it checks usually have something that handles tflame due to it being everywhere. Another issue with stallflame is you are simply stretching its ev investment pretty thin as it needs the attack and speed investment to be effective which means it can't heavily invest in bulk even with said investment you are pretty frail.
Tl;dr Don't use a poke on stall that can't switch in to almost anything. It's also a big no-no if said poke has a recoil move and is 4x weak to rocks.
Talon is actually not too bad on Stall imo, and it seems particularly good for "Momentum Stall". Going Max HP Adamant seems to be the best course of action (but you could easily go fully defensive as well) and Talon does give offense the willies when played well, so if you can keep getting it in through Volt Switches or through predicted doubles, it can quickly chisel away at your opponent as it can usually 2HKO any neutral target (especially if you're using a Sharp Beak / Sky Plate, which I probably would).
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Talon can also switch into any move Mawile throws at it, and then either burn it or something else with a Wisp, Roost up, or predict a switch and use BB or whatever. Quagsire is a great partner for WoW users since once they burn something, Quaggy can wall it perpetually, even if it's something like Mawile.
It's obviously not as bulky as something like Char-Y, Moltress or Arcanine in the role of your bulky fire type, but it has that amazing prio BB and access to Taunt to differentiate itself from them, which is at least worthy of consideration.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 183-216 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Talon can also switch into any move Mawile throws at it, and then either burn it or something else with a Wisp, Roost up, or predict a switch and use BB or whatever. Quagsire is a great partner for WoW users since once they burn something, Quaggy can wall it perpetually, even if it's something like Mawile.
It's obviously not as bulky as something like Char-Y, Moltress or Arcanine in the role of your bulky fire type, but it has that amazing prio BB and access to Taunt to differentiate itself from them, which is at least worthy of consideration.
It can be pretty hard to rocks off the field playing momentum stall from my experience. It could be the way I play. I also just find stall to be too passive in most cases to keep rocks off the field all the time. Talonflame can't switch-in to anything on standard stall but momentum stall could work... I find talons biggest issue is it is usually over prepared for by most teams and kills itself too quickly to effective on stall. Mawile can also run knock off to hit it. It is still not taking maws hits to well either. If it is on momentum stall it has severe 4mss and wants to run dual stabs uturn willowisp and taunt which is unfortunate it also isn't that bulky compared to other bulky fires and is going to die prematurely in my opinion.
Cha all those points are really good but when you're lookin at stall literally every poke supports each other in some way, having a 4x SR weakness kind of sucks but both Mega Zards function well on stall with Defog/Spin support.
My personal suggestion? Pair Talonflame with Latias. The two have good type synergy offensively and defensively, plus Latias is quite specially bulky and able to provide defog support, also Latias has access to T-Wave which can be greatly appreciated. The two are great but pretty Ttar weak tho, I'd say be packing a Ferro or Poison Heal Breloom or Amoonguss or Mega Venu or some other bulky grass that can handle Tar.
My personal suggestion? Pair Talonflame with Latias. The two have good type synergy offensively and defensively, plus Latias is quite specially bulky and able to provide defog support, also Latias has access to T-Wave which can be greatly appreciated. The two are great but pretty Ttar weak tho, I'd say be packing a Ferro or Poison Heal Breloom or Amoonguss or Mega Venu or some other bulky grass that can handle Tar.
I made a team 2 days ago that uses doublade, I've been messing around with it trying to find what covers the most things. The general structure was: Skarmory/
Charizard X Counter/Bulky Grass/Lando Counter/General Special Wall/Stallbreaker Counter. The first variation was Skarmory/Quagsire/Gyarados/Ferrothorn/Mew/Victini (Double pixie lol) which was quite weak to Talonflame, Heracross, well played Breloom, Knock off Mawile, probably a few others I'm missing. To remedy this I switched Quagsire to Hippowdon for ability to beat Talonflame and Mawile, which then left me open to Bisharp. I switched Ferrothorn to Chesnaught, then realized that Doublade beats the same things Victini beats bar Mega Mawile and Charizard Y, which I already have counted in Hippo and Gyara respectively. I have considered Celebi>Chesnaught for heal bell and Quag>Hippo to beat bisharp again, but that just leaves me way too open to more problems than I would fix, so whatever. Here's the team, tell me if you see any problems as I haven't tested it much:
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Counter
- Whirlwind
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Lax Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield
- Spikes
- Hammer Arm
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Knock Off
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Counter
- Whirlwind
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Lax Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield
- Spikes
- Hammer Arm
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Knock Off
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
I'm not sure about taunt on Mew. Heal Bell would really help with 2 rest users, but taunt lets me beat most stall teams that dont use scarf Gothitelle or something and is really useful in general. Doublade could also use pursuit over sleep talk to make beating Lati@s teams easier to beat, as I can then set up spikes and they can't defog it away. Sacred sword would also make it less weak to Pursuit T-tar/Bisharp, and Toxic is always useful.
I'd increase mew's speed to 44 to outspeed adamant bisharp and wisp it. Unfortunately, I doubt you can survive a knock off with a spdef spread from a jolly sharp but investing 8 more evs in a worst case scenerio isn't bad. Gyarados is an absolute monster on the special side, which obviously the only obvious one to get by is thunder genie. Latis kinda do, too. Not sure if knock off mew can actually do it, seismic toss mew might be better.
Even though it would put you at a simple ton of physical walls, I might go 252/216Def/44 speed mew. It's another physical wall but it outspeeds, burns bisharp and can really mess up a mawile, medicham or heracross once in mega. The only other option I see is to completely remove it for a spdef wall like Sylveon and rely on doublade as your medi counter, since you'll only come across one of the three megas he takes per game. Sylveon gets thundy with the spdef set, can still prevent a ton of switches and holds her own vs landorus... can even take sludge bomb for a little over 50%, so protect+leftovers can help you if gyarados is struggling. The reason for Sylveon > Chansey is really conkeldurr, who has coverage to rail everything for SE damage but skarmory... who gets hit SE on roost turns. I could see him being an issue if not contained and sylveon is a very hard stop to conk.
Even though it would put you at a simple ton of physical walls, I might go 252/216Def/44 speed mew. It's another physical wall but it outspeeds, burns bisharp and can really mess up a mawile, medicham or heracross once in mega. The only other option I see is to completely remove it for a spdef wall like Sylveon and rely on doublade as your medi counter, since you'll only come across one of the three megas he takes per game. Sylveon gets thundy with the spdef set, can still prevent a ton of switches and holds her own vs landorus... can even take sludge bomb for a little over 50%, so protect+leftovers can help you if gyarados is struggling. The reason for Sylveon > Chansey is really conkeldurr, who has coverage to rail everything for SE damage but skarmory... who gets hit SE on roost turns. I could see him being an issue if not contained and sylveon is a very hard stop to conk.
You made a good call with Doublade Aj. The Aegi ban, so far at least, has turned out to be a blessing for stall in fact, since we hardly used it anyway and now everything has dropped their specific coverage moves for it, allowing Doublade to come through and wall the shit out of them. Medi has dropped Fire Punch, Hera has dropped EQ (and Knock Off thankfully doesn't seem too common atm), Garde has dropped Shadow Ball (though WoW still sucks if it has it), and every Terrakion I've seen since the ban has dropped EQ and now runs almost exclusively STAB's + SR + SD/Taunt. Terrakion was actually a really potent wall breaker and was pretty damn hard to work around, whereas now it becomes much easier and Doublade counters a lot of dedicated wall breakers in one slot (Medi, Garde, Terak, SD Hera, etc), which frees up slots for better overall mons that aren't just there to counter basically one thing and essentially water down your team if your opponent doesn't have that threat. Doublade, you could almost say, is a 'wildcard' wall breaker counter.
I've been testing a Sassy Blade lately and have been impressed with the results. Props. I think Sacred Sword is kinda a must though, I was using Gyro / Sacred / Sneak / Rest and it was pretty fab.
I've been testing a Sassy Blade lately and have been impressed with the results. Props. I think Sacred Sword is kinda a must though, I was using Gyro / Sacred / Sneak / Rest and it was pretty fab.
Yeah, Doublade is hilarious right now, lol. I've still run into a few things like Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Mega Pinsir with Earthquake, but those that do without get curbstomped by baby Slash. I personally run a Relaxed nature on mine in order to prevent Adamant Mega Heracross from ever 3HKOing with Rock Blast at +2 or 2HKOing at +4 after Stealth Rock. Since Gyro Ball only 3HKOs back at best (if the third attack fails to KO, you can win by following up with Shadow Sneak), Mega Heracross actually has a shot at winning if it can net either of the aformentioned KOs. With a Relaxed nature, Doublade is guaranteed to win as long as it's at high health (although there is a really good chance the opponent will get a critical hit with at least one hit, but then you get to blame the loss on hax!). It does make you a bit weaker to Mega Gardevoir, but even without a +SpD nature, 252/252 Doublade is only 3HKOed by Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice a measly 0.1% of the time while Gyro Ball is a guaranteed OHKO in return (and Iron Head is darn close), so you still win.
Alternatively, you could run Aerial Ace and go for the guaranteed 2HKO, but then you miss out on other, more important coverage moves.
Alternatively, you could run Aerial Ace and go for the guaranteed 2HKO, but then you miss out on other, more important coverage moves.
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For the sake of knowledge: that's not how numbers work.
By your logic Mega Hera has almost a 100% chance to crit in 3 turns which isn't right. Each crit chance is independent. It's substantial at 5 hits (1 - [ 1 - 0.0625]^5] = about 27.6%), but the chance of a crit grows more slowly as you get more hits (about 62% over 3 Rock Blasts rather than 93%).
So, I've noticed playing stall recently that Rotom-W reminds me of a much weaker Genesect. A slippery snake that's hard to pin down. Sure, Genesect was way worse, but Rotom-W is really hard to stop without a faster grass attack, which isn't that common.
We have plenty of good switch ins but we don't really have anything that lures Rotom-W in and beats it, do we?
We have plenty of good switch ins but we don't really have anything that lures Rotom-W in and beats it, do we?
The reason Rotom-W is a nuisance is because he's so hard to hit, and he provides instant momentum. He eases prediction against stall, and he often is the last to die because he just volt switches out of everything. I usually put him on a timer by hitting him with a burn or a toxic, and letting the SR and status damage rack up. Pain Split variants are, however, obnoxiously hard to take down.
Yeah, I find I have trouble landing a burn or toxic on him though. Burn is a little easier. I mean, he's obviously not staying in on a grass type and grass type moves are very uncommon besides hidden power grass. Unfortunately, the only pokemon I can think of that would lure Rotom in with HP grass and beat it are offensive pokemon like Greninja.
Lapras I suppose could work with Freeze Dry, but with no reliable recovery, only resistant to its own stabs, and an incompatibility between Freeze Dry and Heal Bell, it really offers very little to a stall team.
Anyone made a stall Mamoswine set?
EDIT: thoughts on Power Herb Solar Beam Heatran to lure and beat Rotom-W? Bring him in on something he would normally come in on, Lava Plume the switch or something in case Rotom doesn't switch in, then nail it with a Solar Beam? A spread of 248 HP / 136+ SpA / 4 SpD/ 120 Spe outspeeds typical 248 HP / 216+ Def /44 Spe Rotom-W, does about 20-24% with Lava Plume and 82-97% with Solar Beam. Factoring in leftovers on Rotom, lowest possible damage roll is 96%, without SR. Some HP could be taken away to make that a guaranteed kill through lefties. I just put max HP, enough speed to speed creep that Rotom set then the rest in SpA.
Lefties being lost hurt, but reliable wish support helps a lot. Maybe a set of Lava Plume, Solar Beam then two of Taunt/Toxic/Earth Power/Ancient Power/Stealth Rock/Will o Wisp?
Lapras I suppose could work with Freeze Dry, but with no reliable recovery, only resistant to its own stabs, and an incompatibility between Freeze Dry and Heal Bell, it really offers very little to a stall team.
Anyone made a stall Mamoswine set?
EDIT: thoughts on Power Herb Solar Beam Heatran to lure and beat Rotom-W? Bring him in on something he would normally come in on, Lava Plume the switch or something in case Rotom doesn't switch in, then nail it with a Solar Beam? A spread of 248 HP / 136+ SpA / 4 SpD/ 120 Spe outspeeds typical 248 HP / 216+ Def /44 Spe Rotom-W, does about 20-24% with Lava Plume and 82-97% with Solar Beam. Factoring in leftovers on Rotom, lowest possible damage roll is 96%, without SR. Some HP could be taken away to make that a guaranteed kill through lefties. I just put max HP, enough speed to speed creep that Rotom set then the rest in SpA.
Lefties being lost hurt, but reliable wish support helps a lot. Maybe a set of Lava Plume, Solar Beam then two of Taunt/Toxic/Earth Power/Ancient Power/Stealth Rock/Will o Wisp?
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Could Togekiss fulfill a niche on stall? I realize it is largely outclassed for the most part, but it can run lots of move combinations like Defog+Heal Bell+Wish and has the bulk to take on things like Keldeo and Landorus, while also having the coverage to deal with Bisharp. I do realize it is HILARIOUSLY niche, but could it fulfill a specific one nonetheless?
Does it have a niche? Yes.
Is the niche significant enough to warrant use on a competitive stall team? 99% of the time no.
Is the niche significant enough to warrant use on a competitive stall team? 99% of the time no.
Togekiss's ability to wall a lot of things falls apart if you can't keep the rocks off unfortunately, and Pokemon it should be able to wall like Landorus and Latios can beat it with an appropriate coverage move. It's a bad Defogger because it can't reliably switch into most hazard setters and everything else it wants to do is generally done just as well if not better by Sylveon or Clefable.
It's better for balanced or semi-offensive teams.
It's better for balanced or semi-offensive teams.
Have you ever tried amoonguss against Rotom-W?
It doesn't kill it but rotom can't do nothing but burn you and since you have regenerator doesn't make much of a difference, in the end of the battle you can kill it. TrickScarf rotom gets crippled by Black Sludge and dies quickly. Amoong also provides a counter to
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 68 SpD
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain
- Spore
Man, I love this guy so much, it just shits on (almost) any kind of Keldeo, Clefable, Azumarril, Rotom-W and M-Gyara. He can also check Thundy(bar HP flying), Terrakion and other stuff as well. He has decent defenses, great HP, good typing and regenerator to back it up. Foul Play is it's main way to kill things like SubDD Gyara and boosters, it also deals good damage to Latios on the switch, Clear Smog craps on any setup sweeper that can't OHKO amoong or use Sub(looking at you BD Azu). Giga Drain is it's main stab and the recovery is nice, Spore to shut down anything that can be problematic(usually on the switch). He doesn't care too much about his item, making him perfect to even switch on Rotom's Trick or Azu's Knock Off. His EVs are to make him be able to counter BD azu after rocks, the rest in on SDef to check Thundurus/Raikou
Stolen from my RMT
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 68 SpD
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain
- Spore
Man, I love this guy so much, it just shits on (almost) any kind of Keldeo, Clefable, Azumarril, Rotom-W and M-Gyara. He can also check Thundy(bar HP flying), Terrakion and other stuff as well. He has decent defenses, great HP, good typing and regenerator to back it up. Foul Play is it's main way to kill things like SubDD Gyara and boosters, it also deals good damage to Latios on the switch, Clear Smog craps on any setup sweeper that can't OHKO amoong or use Sub(looking at you BD Azu). Giga Drain is it's main stab and the recovery is nice, Spore to shut down anything that can be problematic(usually on the switch). He doesn't care too much about his item, making him perfect to even switch on Rotom's Trick or Azu's Knock Off. His EVs are to make him be able to counter BD azu after rocks, the rest in on SDef to check Thundurus/Raikou
Stolen from my RMT
I
I actually find Amoongus to be pretty iffy against Keldeo. Keldeo does more damage than Regenerator heals and it switches out. Over time he wears Amoongus down. True--in a 1v1--Amoongus wins, but over the course of the match, I'm not a huge fan of the matchup.
Yeah, I've tried Amoonguss, but as you said, he doesn't really deal with Rotom until Rotom is already the last pokemon left. Didn't think about absorbing tricks with Black Sludge though, that's neat.
And while regenerator helps mitigate constantly switching into Rotom-W, I don't like Amoonguss being burned...some of the things Amoonguss is supposed to beat can break through with a little bit of prior damage...say, 12% per turn from burn?
Any thoughts on the lure heatran though? Would it be considered too gimmicky since it gives up half its bulk and leftovers?
I would be VERY wary using lures in stall because usually they're meant to kill a specific threat and that's it. Stall generally prefers things with jackknife utility. SkarmChans is a perfect example of that.
That's why I want to know if a 248 HP / 136+ SpA / 4 SpD / 120 Spe Heatran would still be able to do its job of being semi bulky and just generally annoying. Heatran has a lot of good options for moves but usually can afford sacrificing a move to cover something your team needs (toxic, protect, will o wisp and taunt being common ones that fall under that category), so why not Solar Beam to help a team that is particularly weak to Rotom-W. Well, not weak, but nothing appreciates a burn, and nothing really threatens him either.
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