Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - ADV Unfrozen & Quickbans #311

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
ADV ZU: How Do I Build?
I'll be highlighting 5 Pokemon that are adept at fulfilling their roles. Keep in mind that some Pokemon can belong in multiple roles but may not be shown as I think they fulfill their other role better. This list is purely the Pokemon I most often look at while building and is by no means the only Pokemon that can fulfill the role. These Pokemon, bar Voltorb, are ones that I look at when building Balanced and Bulky Offense so the sets will reflect as such.


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The Leads

Picking a lead is rarely the first thing I do when building. In ADV ZU, leads can be highly specialized like Voltorb and Snorunt, or customizable like Cyndaquil, Aipom, and Butterfree. This means I can choose later based on what lead would most benefit the team. Butterfree and Aipom act as good status utility leads. Butterfree is worth nothing because Sleep Powder Compound Eyes provides an insane amount of utility. This in conjunction with its respectable bulk and access to Morning Sun means it can fulfill its role multiple times. Aipom can also run more physical sets with Substitute or Band for better matchups against the other leads. Cyndaquil is specifically for teams that lack rapid spin and are weak to spikes. It can run some wacky stuff like Hidden Power Water for other Cyndaquil and the odd match-up fish Growlithe. Snorunt can be lumped on more offensive teams that appreciate spikes' support.

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The Bulky Attackers

Bulky attackers fulfill an extremely valuable role as checks to a handful of Pokemon. Rhyhorn and Castform are at the forefront of this as they fulfill this role extremely well. I've relegated Rhyhorn as a strict Bird Kid check. Rhyhorn's bulky set (112 HP / 52 Atk / 220 SpD / 124 Spe Careful) allows it to avoid the 2HKO from the bird's coverage and avoid the OHKO from Elekid's HP Grass. This relieves so much of the offensive pressure that those Pokemon tend to apply. Castform, on the other hand, checks loads of Defensive Pokemon that try to switch in on it. This allows it to heavily weaken or KO defensive mons somewhat easily. Seaking's respectable bulk and access to Megahorn for coverage allow it to threaten key Pokemon such as Sunflora and Spoink. Staryu's coverage, ability Natural Cure, and access Recover mean it's able to find plenty of opportunities on status spreaders and weaker attackers. Spoink's ability Thick Fat and access to Psychic STAB allow it to spam Psychic which checks the plethora of Poison-types.

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The Walls / Defensive Utility

ADV ZU is home to a plethora of customizable defensive Pokemon that keep offensive threats and cleaners in their place. Lileep is by far the best at this because it's a toss-up as to what defenses it's invested in thanks to the lack of team preview. Without scouting or Toxic, it's hard to easily deal with Lileep thanks to access to Recover. It's worth noting that physically defensive Lileep just misses a 2HKO from Choice Band Aipom's Brick Break. Dustox is an incredibly useful special wall thanks to its Toxic immunity and access to Moon Light. It is the dedicated Elekid switch-in. Thanks to Leech Seed, Sunflora can phaze out Pokemon that switch into it. Alternatively, Sunflora can run Growth to act as a pseudo-bulky attacker. Koffing's bulk coupled with its Earthquake and Toxic immunity allows it to pivot in a defensive utility. Moreover, it's the tier's premier Rhyhorn check. Magnemite's bulk is lackluster but its typing is what makes it useful. Being a Normal resist with access to Thunder Wave means it's able to cripple common attackers.

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The Attackers

The number of offensive threats in ADV ZU is staggering. The meta is centered around 5 in particular that apply the most offensive pressure. Elekid's speed tier, coverage, and respectable special attack cement it as the best special attacker in the meta. Elekid is able to heavily limit other attackers like Pidgeotto, Tailow, and Seaking. It also entirely prevents Tailow and Pidgeotto from cleaning. Aipom is undoubtedly the best Choice Band user in the meta. Its Fighting- and Ghost-type coverage in conjunction with its speed tier and access to Baton Pass alow it to gain heaps of momentum as an offensive pivot. Pidgeotto and Tailow make up the bird squad. Pidgeotto has more bulk and attack then Tailow while the latter possess more speed and access to Guts. Castform comes equipped with great coverage options and 70 base stats across the board. This means its able to be customized to run mixed or just fully physical or special.


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Team Spotlight: The Big 3

This team uses Rhyhorn and Castform's role compression to its advantage. Butterfree puts something to sleep right away which prevents Spikes. It also checks physical Seaking, Staryu, and Koffing. It's usually able to put at least 2 Pokemon to sleep which opens up for Aipom. Elekid checks Pidgeotto and Tailow while also acting as speed control for late-game opposing Aipom. Koffing works in conjunction with Rhyhorn to wall physical attackers. Castform acts as a specially defensive pivot that checks Sunflora and Dustox for Elekid. Aipom wall breaks mid-game and cleans early game. Rhyhorn trades its HP to remove Elekid which helps Butterfree and Aipom immensely. Alternatively, it also helps check Pidgeotto and Tailow.

I only have one replay because I keep forgetting to save them
Vs. wooper https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1663503587
 
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Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
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Moderator
SM ZU VR has been updated! Thank you 85percent, ayevon, and czim for joining council on this update. Voting sheet.
:electivire: from A+ to S
:golem: from A to A+
:rotom-fan: from A to A+
:furfrou: from A- to A+
:leafeon: from A- to A
:simisage: from A- to A+
:simisear: from A- to A
:muk: from B+ to A
:silvally-ground: from B+ to A-
:simipour: from B+ to A
:sandslash: from B to B+
:silvally: (electric) from B to A-
:silvally: (poison) from B to A
:bellossom: from B- to B
:cacturne: from B- to A-
:chatot: from B- to B
:gourgeist: (small) from B- to B
:monferno: from B- to B
:servine: from B- to B+
:wishiwashi: from B- to A+
:butterfree: from C+ to B
:duosion: from C+ to B-
:grimer-alola: from C+ to B
:hippopotas: from C+ to B-
:lapras: from C+ to B
:rampardos: from C+ to B
:trevenant: from C+ to B-
:drifblim: from C to B-
:arbok: from C- to C+
:palpitoad: from UR to C-
:ivysaur: from UR to C

:combusken: from S to A
:torterra: from S to A
:bronzor: from A+ to A
:mareanie: from A+ to A
:silvally: (dark) from A+ to B+
:beheeyem: from A to A-
:mawile: from A to B+
:silvally: (dragon) from A to A-
:dusclops: from A- to B+
:kecleon: from A- to B
:lickilicky: from A- to B
:pawniard: from A- to B+
:pyukumuku: from A- to B
:raichu: from A- to B+
:granbull: from B+ to B
:marowak: from B+ to B
:shuckle: from B+ to B-
:vigoroth: from B+ to B
:ditto: from B to B-
:sawsbuck: from B to C+
:bibarel: from B- to C+
:carbink: from B- to C-
:cradily: from B- to C+
:golem-alola: from B- to C+
:jumpluff: from B- to C+
:metang: from B- to C+
:oricorio: from B- to C-
:swoobat: from B- to C+
:chimecho: from C+ to C
:probopass: from C+ to C
:regice: from C+ to C
:smeargle: from C+ to C
:dusknoir: from C to UR
:frogadier: from C to C-
:misdreavus: from C to C-
:noctowl: from C to C-
:gogoat: from C- to UR
:gothitelle: from C- to UR
:krokorok: from C- to UR
:munchlax: from C- to UR
:onix: from C- to UR
:regigigas: from C- to UR
:shedinja: from C- to UR
:slaking: from C- to UR
:togetic: from C- to UR
Expect news on the tiering survey soon.
 
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DPP/ADV/alpha-RBY post.

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Last time I was here I briefed over a few pokemon that I saw potential for people to stir the pot of experimentation with before going over setup sweepers (a lot of meme ones specifically). Just wanted to put out some more thoughts and throw in some potential teams for a little bit of a jumpstart. *A lot of my teams I was going to post are on a separate computer, apologies. Will update this post with them when I get around to them again or save it for the future.


:dp/girafarig: - I’m kinda sad how little this was used in ZUPL. It’s genuinely great and has variety in how you can play it, my go-tos being scarf and Ebelt. Scarf outspeeds the most common scarfers in Kingler, Lunatone, and Arbok and hits them all with fairly strong attacks. In addition, Inner Focus prevents Persian from farming Fake Out damage on it through sacs, making Giraffe (i'm going to call it this from now on) harder to revenge kill in general. Darks and other psychics aren't necessarily safe either with the threat of Signal beam or other coverage moves (Gknot vs Lunatone for example). Trick is what really sells it for me because it doesn't leave you dead in the water vs Sableye, an otherwise massive roadblock for you. On the other hand, Ebelt provides excellent midgame power as your opponent might make the mistake of assuming you're choiced locked. I like running Toxic on non-choiced sets as my way of crippling fatter walls like Sab. This isn't even going into Baton Pass which can turn some already great mons into literal tanks, let alone turning itself into more of a threat.

The speed goes up to base 80s aka Arbok and Gastly, however running max speed also allows you to outspeed +2 neutral base 60s like Whiscash. If you're wondering, the 36 defense helps with some calc from priority lol up to you. I just don't see enough Whiscash getting to +2 to actually warrant it.

Girafarig @ Choice Scarf / Expert Belt (my recommendations)
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick / Toxic (If using non-choiced)

:dp/Walrein: - Council doesn't need to be told this nor anyone who plays the tier. For my valued reader who may not be as informed, this is S tier. Just your standard Ice beam/Surf/HP Electric or Grass/filler, usually protect, sub, or toxic. Not much more needs to be said, it's just a tanky mfer with strong stabs that are nearly unresisted. It does have checks like Dustox and the rocks weakness clearly hinders the amount of times it can switch in, but it can do so much for you in any given scenario. Personally, I'm kinda torn on it as I was with Lapras. I usually play offense so I can't speak from the other perspective, but I usually just beat it down. Some people might have issues with how it can restrict some teambuilding so I'd encourage anyone with those beliefs to give their take.

Just to give some voice for the pro-ban, one opinion I've heard from the ban argument is that it's essentially Lapras lite, therefore if you ban Lapras then you must ban Walrein as well. They share many similar traits like high HP (sub hp #), close to the same speed, and bulk. Lapras has Hydro pump, Tbolt and Water Absorb over Walrein, although HP Grass/Electric does a good enough job of replicating Lapras TBolt since Walrein has 10 more base SpA.

:dp/vibrava: - Breakout performance during ZUPL from what I see. A set of unique qualities, such as EdgeQuake resist, that lets it act as a pivot/wall that can be a pain to remove without the right coverage. Notable mons it can get in the way are mons that usually don't run Ice coverage, like Camerupt, Arbok, some Luxrays, etc.

:dp/arbok: - Very similar to Girafarig; it can run a variety of sets, my favorites being Scarf and Ebelt. With Poison jab and EQ, it hits a good amount of mons for super-effective damage. Seed Bomb or Ice Fang, specifically on Ebelt sets, help hammer usual resists such as Whiscash or the abovementioned Vibrava. Switcheroo serves the same purpose as Trick does with Giraffe and Pursuit is a cool option to offer more team support/secure some vital chip in key scenarios. Being a toxic spike absorber + Intimidate gives it great utility outside of these roles so it's no surprise it was used to great success.

:dp/bibarel: - Ok if you don't know then Simple in DPP works a tad differently, you can baton pass a Swords Dance to Bibarel and it'll effectively be +4. (Currently Simple takes effect when the user's stats change, unlike in DPP where it takes effect during damage calculation) Make of that as you will, we do have a great passer in the form of Mawile to assist it. When it's not attempting to put you on a highlight reel, Bibarel finds itself in the lead slot with access to the fastest Taunt + Stealth Rock combination. Dumping 252 into Defense allows you to avoid Persian's 1-2 punch btw. Naturally this makes it a good lead and you'd usually run focus sash on it. HOW. EVER. In very few scenarios does something that regularly lead have an actual chance of OHKO'ing you. AS SUCH, I propose an ALTERNATIVE item(s), or rather, BERRY. The ORIGINAL rocky helmet, the LAST THING a focus sash sees before being relegated as useless.

The Jaboca/Rowap berries.
"When a Pokémon holds a Jaboca Berry and is hit by a physical attack, the attacker will lose 1/8 of its max HP."
"When a Pokémon holds a Rowap Berry and is hit by a special attack, the attacker will lose 1/8 of its max HP."

VITAL. CHIP.

:dp/phione: - An underexplored mon imo. Base 80 speed is pretty nice, especially for a water. U-turn gives Phione the ability to effectively run a Scarf set with the other three slots being Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot or Hidden power Grass. The last depends on whether you want to hit Walrein or Wailord vs hitting Crawdaunt or Whiscash, I mentioned this last post. Weirdly enough, it seems anything that I like running scarf on I also like to run Ebelt on too, this being no exception.

:dp/flareon: - Rare fire type sighting that isn't Camerupt. Kinda weird since it used to be pretty common back in the early days iirc, but those were SpDef sets since Magmar was better offensively. With the latter's absence, I wanted to try slotting the Scarf back onto a fire type and decided Flareon was the best candidate. Has good coverage, a workable speed tier for a scarfer, and good stats in general. BP gives Flareon the "u-turn" style of pivoting, which helps it keep up momentum.

:dp/cranidos: :dp/pupitar: - Goat lead rockers. Cranidos has ridiculous power with Head Smash lmao it will send things running for the hills in fear of that Head Smash. Pupitar specifically has Taunt to prevent slower rockers like Probo or Lairon, plus Shed Skin gives some form of status counterplay. Both of these can do other things like Rock polish and DD respectively. Both are also really fucking scary to be staring down once they are set up, especially if your speed control is Fake Out Persian.

:dp/Fearow: - I meme'd on it last time, but I like Adamant Scarf or Jolly Band sets. I prefer Return over Double edge just because recoil + rocks add up a little too fast. There's plenty of normals in the pond to choose from, I just like Fearow for its speed tier + immediacy compared to something like Raticate.

:dp/dunsparce: - Seems like a meme but rocks AND roost? Body slam 60% para? Earthquake for steels/rocks? Good enough for me. Can prob be customizable to how you see fit, but I run the below set as the usual. Breaks max hp Walrein sub and a few other 2HKOs. Can see this as a potential pursuiter as well.

Dunsparce @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Atk / 96 Def
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Body Slam

:dp/tropius: - It was p good at checking Ebuzz when we had it here since it never ran HP Ice lol. I don't think this will be anything special, but I've been trying to figure something out between DD/Specs/Sun. It's really subpar each time I've used it bar some ridiculous MU luck. I will not give up the search for the viable tropius set.

If you're curious about any sets or want to use some of these as a base by all means. I have moderate success with them because they just kinda slot into my playstyle (button clicking).

HO - Jaboca for Persian/Cranidos/generally most mons. Rowap really only for Abra, although this is always sashed.
DD Pupi + Flare
CB Fearow + Specs Crawdaunt
SubGastly + LeadPloud
Dual Scarf

more experimental/meme
Plusle + Mightyena
Sun (bad)
SD Beedrill
Porygon - Traps opposing diglett for teammates that'd really appreciate it.
Offensive Pelipper and SpDef Mightyena??
NP Golbat + Octillery
The only Pidgeot you'll ever see
Scarf Grovyle - Speed on Lairon is enough to outspeed Persian at +2. Roar on Walrein is for shuffling switch-ins to take more rocks damage. Mild Grovyle is definitely an option, you only give up outspeeding Scarf Girafaring (as I mentioned, uncommon fsr).
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We just had a VR update, so instead of nomming stuff this will more be review of what things do and some teams. Also, before I begin, quite a few sets you maybe see either here or in the teams section will have enough speed to hit 164. This is notable because its 1 point above Jolly Rhyhorn and usually only takes a few EVs to achieve, like -Speed Castform or Bayleef. Figured I mention that, so people aren't too lost at what they're looking at!


:rs/aron: - Starting off strong lol ok so Aron. Contrary to what you might think, I think offensive roles suit it better than defensive. The nasty x4 weakness to fighting and ground is just too much of a hinderance without having some really nice qualities to balance it out. However, being a steel type means immunity to poison/toxic and good resists such as normal, flying, and rock. This means it has a significantly easier time switching into walls that would otherwise threaten toxic, such as Lileep and Dustox. Once in, it can fire off CB Double-edges, thanks to rock head, earthquakes, rock slides, or iron tail/hidden power steel. If CB isn't appealing, then 3 attacks with Protect may be what you want. I drop HP Steel for Protect just so I’m able to scout what CB mons will lock in for revenge killing, steel attacks are really only useful for hitting rock types harder anyway.

Aron @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Replay showing how steel-type can be an issue for certain mons

Aron @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature (depending on if you respect Jolly Rhyhorn or not)
- Double-Edge
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Steel]

Aron again being annoying due to typing


:rs/Pineco: - Hard competition with Snorunt, especially since it can't run Salac berry to the same effect. I kinda made this weird MU fish set that aims to catch Butterfree and potential Rhyhorns. It's pretty bad, but it atleast has something going for it in the form of Explosion.


Pineco @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 116 Def / 80 SpD
Brave Nature
- Rock Slide
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Explosion

Rock Slide with 60 Atk + Brave knocks out max HP Butterfree almost all time. Has the ability to also hit other fliers like Taillow, Delibird, etc. The HP+Defense notably lets you take 2 neutral nature Double Edges from Aipom/Castform. The SpDef is enough to survive +SpA Hydro Pump from Seaking. A few other calcs in there.

252 Atk Aipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Pineco: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Seaking Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Pineco: 257-303 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Pineco: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:rs/bagon: - It's REALLY bad but it's also pretty cute. Like Larvitar, running lefties will do you no favors. Either go Lum or 1.1 boosting, in this case Silk Scarf to get the strongest Double-edge possible. Hydro Pump is literally just to OHKO full hp Rhyhorn and Brick Break is coverage for steels, Lileep, Nosepass, and Rhyhorn if it's in range. I still suggest Larvitar for a DDer, but Bagon has a tiny, TINY niche since it outspeeds Elekid at +1, unlike Larvitar.

Bagon @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Brick Break

:rs/Meowth: - Niche lead. Fake out + Double edge lets you threaten out some mons like Butterfree. Because it doesn't need to run Band, it can easily fit HP Grass to punish overconfident rhyhorns, onixs, etc. Also sits at a great speed tier, simply being above the base 85s like Aipom and Taillow. Since you're using a Meowth, you should have no issue with also using Hypnosis. This set despises the uncommon Shuppet because of the latter's Insomnia ability, so be wary of that.

Meowth @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Fake Out
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Hypnosis

:rs/onix: - The only reason you'd ever use this over Rhyhorn or other rocks is for its speed. With said speed, it can put up Sun, preferably dying as it does, and then booming next turn if it's still alive. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see how CB Onix would work given EdgeSlide coverage in a tier with no resist would function, plus it has both recoil-less Double Edge and Explosion as filler. Here's a visual to show my experience:
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fuckin terrible

:rs/teddiursa: - I figured that a normal type that's able to setup in front of Rhyhorn, the premier normal check, would be pretty dangerous. I then remembered that we just ranked Teddiursa for a reason. It plays almost exactly as it does in GSC, except now it doesn't have to worry about the speed from Curse since it has Bulk Up. You can opt for Double edge ig but the extra lefties go a long way.

Teddiursa @ Leftovers
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Return
- Earthquake
- Protect

136 Speed for neutral nature, max speed Rhyhorns. The rest is dumped into bulk to maximize your boosts.

:rs/mankey: - It's pretty cool since it's like the only viable fighting type in a tier where normal types and rocks types are pretty common. Having Earthquake and rockslide to hit poisons and fliers respectively is really nice since you don't have to run HP ground or rock for them, letting you run HP Ghost or Bug if desired. You can run either Salac + Reversal to go for game-ending sweeps or try Banded for general breaking. I prefer the latter just because it's more consistent, but Reversal has its merits.

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As I mentioned in the first comment of this post, this is ALPHA rby, so a lot of what you see here may not transition into the initial "official" list of mons we get from PU. With that said, much of this is also from the test games I've been able to play since there hasn't been any inaugural tour to have a large sample pool of replays and playstyles/builds to look at. This means a lot of what I'm going to say will be what I've experienced, so by all means I encourage you to leave a post if your experience differs.


:rb/Arbok: - The elephant in the room for almost everyone who plays this tier. Thanks to its stats, coverage, and Wrap, Arbok is by far the strongest pokemon you can slot onto your team. Firstly, Earthquake and Rock slide pair obviously well together letting Arbok nail many pokemon super-effectively for 2HKOs or OHKOs with favorable odds. Second, the combination of Wrap and its base 80 speed tier allows it to swiftly lock down any slower pokemon that would otherwise be able to easily take it on, like Marowak and the slow status spreaders of Parasect, Weepinbell, or Ivysaur. Doing this lets it act as a pivot for teammates, that is if you don't miss. That said, not even faster pokemon are entirely safe due to Glare, letting Arbok Wrap them down afterwards if it so chooses. Other options include Mega Drain to smack Onix hard with a 2HKO compared to EQ's 3HKO. VS Kabuto, the other notable Rock type, Mega Drain and EQ are almost exactly the same damage output, but Mega Drain's extra HP recovery can be vital in a pinch. Outside of these options, Hyper Beam also exists to act as a finisher of sorts vs the targets EQ/Slide hit neutrally, like Marowak, Primeape, etc.

Arbok Earthquake vs. Onix: 95-112 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Arbok Mega Drain vs. Onix: 170-200 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:rb/Onix: - "Surprisingly", the second snake, slightly slower, slithered up into the eyes of the small player base. Remember how Arbok has EQ and Rock slide for coverage? Onix has them for stab, which gives him a miniscule edge in damage output over Arbok when using these moves. Able to Wrap as well, Onix sets itself apart from Arbok thanks to its defensive profile and Explosion. The latter many should already be familiar with, but for those not aware of the meta's landscape, Onix's rock and ground typing allow it to be a stopgap to many otherwise dangerous pokemon. Most notably, it is as best as a counter you can get for Scyther, Pidgeot, and Magneton. The first two are almost entirely reliant on normal attacks and the last on electric, giving Onix essentially free entry. This is incredibly important because recovery in RBY ZU is essentially null, so being able to absorb as little damage as possible goes a long way in team sustainability with how quick RBY is played. 70 speed is pretty average, if not mediocre, but it's the bare minimum Onix needs to work. It's able to outspeed Flareon and threatens speedties vs Tentacool and Butterfree. On the off chance a greedy Arbok tries to Wrap you and misses, well....

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Credit to Benio from the RBY discord for the art, gave me a chuckle lol

:rb/flareon: - Unsure where this one falls into the meta, it's obviously very threatening with strong offenses in Fire Blast/Spin and the Bodyslam/Hyperbeam combo, but the lack of speed and subpar defensive typing holds it back from being overly oppressive. If this isn't enough for you, there exists Kabuto; a nigh perfect counter when packing Rest. You can Fire Spin if it comes in and pivot out, although this is with its less reliable 75% accuracy. I think it'll hover around the top 3-5 range; highest I can see being 2, but not the initial #1 initially expected imo.

:rb/Gastly: :rb/Butterfree: :rb/Parasect: :rb/Weepinbell: - AKA the sleepers
If you're familiar with RBY, you'll know sleep is a pretty important factor, hence why it's important to have your own. Listed above are imo the four viable sleepers, I don't really see the merit in stuff like Ivysaur or Gloom. They all have their own pros and cons, such as their speed or post-sleep options. For example...

:rb/Gastly: - Fastest sleeper, but most unreliable. Has respectable special to fire off Psychic, Mega Drain, or Tbolts, which allows it to heavily check some mons such the aforementioned Pidgeot and Scyther, in addition to almost every fighting time bar Machoke. Has Explosion option as a last resort.

:rb/Butterfree: - Sitting just below Gastly is Butterfree, who also sports Psychic and Mega Drain as attacking moves. Carries Stun Spore which it uses to cripple something after the initial sleep. This last point isn't unique to Butterfree, the next two in this section also possess this move, but Butterfree still has the advantage of speed.

:rb/parasect: - With Spore it's always going to be landing sleeps, so it's the most reliable in terms of accuracy. Fittingly, it's also the slowest out of the four and has a pretty mid-typing, weak to flying/rock/fire, but resisting ground/electric. It's the most physically bulky too ig.

:rb/weepinbell: - I'm not too familiar with this one so I'll do my best to explain. It's got similarly bad speed as Parasect, though it does outspeed Marowak. It also shares the same status moves as Butterfree. Where it shines is in its offensives: the crit machine Razor Leaf and Wrap. If you're tired of weakass Mega Drains, Weepinbell's gotcha covered. Wrap is another threatening option when compared with the ability to paralyze, as demonstrated by Arbok.

:rb/scyther: :rb/diglett: :rb/primeape: :rb/pidgeot: :rb/meowth: :rb/pikachu: - Fast guys (aka base 90 or above)

I'll just say this, Scyther and Pidgeot are pretty similar in most areas, like being reliant on normal attacks and pretty much walled by any rock type under normal circumstances. I prefer Scyther because I like having its speed for a safety net and because +2 Hyper Beam hits like a train. Most things that a bit chipped get folded by it all the time, bulkier mons like Marowak only needing to be hit by a single Slash or so. +2 also allows for Wing Attack to 2HKO Gastly. Pidgeot fans can give their side too if they want, I encourage it. I just think if you're going to rank these two anywhere it'd have to be next to each other. Here's just a quick rundown of the pros between the two.

:rb/scyther::rb/pidgeot:
Stronger, recoil-less attack in SlashMore bulk; Not x4 weak to Rock
Fastest mon in the meta at 105Can switch into Onix's EQ and Mirror Move to retaliate
Has Swords Dance to boost its Hyper Beam and Wing AttackSTAB provides immediate power with Hyper Beam


:rb/Diglett: - Fastest user of Earthquake, which is important considering both Arbok and Gastly are poison types lol obviously being able to hit these two would have some form of usefulness. Has Rock Slide for the fliers which is nice. Sub doesn't block sleep/para in gen1, so the only real use it can get is trying to scout a switch/sac or banking on miss.

:rb/Primeape: - The other base 95. It loses the 1v1 vs Gastly without a crit so don't even try taking that fight at lead. It's kinda just a fast physical attacker that scares Arbok with the threat of Body Slam para while also being able to nail rocks with STAB Submission. Fliers also have to worry about Rock Slide as well.

:rb/pikachu: - Fast electric that can hit grounds with Surf! Can spread paralysis for teammates which is great for crippling high priority targets.

:rb/meowth: - This seems odd, but it's a normal that can both hit Onix and Kabuto with Bubblebeam and Thunderbolt respectively. It's Slash still stings since it is STAB after all. It's essentially hard walled by Gastly, but might be a worthy tradeoff to pave the way of rock types for the previously mentioned Scyther and Pidgeot.

:rb/marowak: - Eq/Blizz/Counter/Bodyslam or filler, it's the strongest EQ user so it's got some nice firepower behind it, but I find it usually falls short when it can't afford to. It's got respectable defense but the lackluster HP + Special is REALLY not fun to deal with in the face of some special attackers, especially being that slow (base 45). That said, it's probably the best check we have to Arbok and Onix's EQSlide combo. Just dodge the Wrap attempt ig lol it's good into some other guys like Diglett, the fliers, and Primeape.

:rb/kabuto: - Best Flareon check - hard stop. You have a better chance at winning the lottery than you do breaking through Kabuto with Flareon, unless your opponent isn't running Rest on it. It's still a respectable rock into the birds, but noticeably less effective at putting on pressure than Onix.

:rb/magneton: - Eeeeeeeh I don't like this guy because most teams will have a ground type because most teams will have an Arbok, Onix, and Flareon because those three are all really good in this meta and they're all weak to grooooouuuuund. Even outside of the grounds, a grass type is a sufficient (most have decent special) enough check as well. It does have some good utility to it such as being the #1 lure to Toxic an Onix and having a strong Tbolt vs Fliers, but it feels like too much of a momentum drain. Doesn't have the speed like Scyther or Pidg to really standout.

other stuff that is just along for the ride lol idk i use them occasionally or hear about them from others. Prob forgetting the most niche of the niche.

:rb/machoke: - Bulkiest fighting type with the best coverage, aka Earthquake and rock slide. Cool but nothing to write home about.

:rb/tentacool: - Fast water type with pretty good special, letting it fire off Hydros and Blizzards while being able to pivot with Wrap. The poison type really holds it back as it has that nasty eq weakness, but not much appreciates the Pump/Blizzard combo either. It can find entry in from Flareon's Fire Blast, but this is obviously risky. I like to think of this as the tier's glass cannon.

:rb/charmeleon: - I'm prob the only guy whose really uses this, but it's slightly viable in my book. Base 80 speed is a nice benchmark to work with and Charm has some tools that other fires don't possess. Counter in gen1 is very powerful if utilized correctly, since it stores the damage between turns. This means positioning is key, such as absorbing a Hyper beam from Flareon and knocking its lights out next turn. Can't Onix also absorb beam? Well, it stills fears Fire blast and also can't secure the kill vs a full hp Flareon, pending a crit which can let the Flareon user preserve for later. This also works on switches as well. Still niche as shit tho lol but fast fire spin is what it is. It has Stoss to 3HKO Kabuto too lol.

:rb/wartortle: -
blizz/stoss/water stab lol it can switch into Flareon 1 time before a second attack into Beam becomes a roll to kill it. surf also barely 2hkos because wartortle has bad special; you need to land a Hydro with Surf. This is also why Flareon's Fire blast does more than Body slam. Kabuto just seems better.

turtletuesday!.png

:rb/muk: :rb/weezing: - Bulky poisons that can explode. Both have Fire blast, but Muk has Mega Drain as well. This is obviously great for nailing Onix or Kabuto without needing to boom and clearly puts Muk over Weezing.

:rb/golbat: :rb/beedrill: - No comment. Golbat has pretty good speed, but kinda lacks power. Someone will prob bring up Confuse Ray anyway. Beedrill is just kinda bad? it'd have to be the smallest of niches.

:rb/hitmonchan: :rb/hitmonlee: -
catFace2.png
if you really want a second, worse Primeape, then go for Hitmonlee ig. Won't even speak the other's name.


Some of bottom teams are merely for fun, please bring a normal resist on every team.
Machoke + Scyther
Parasect + Maro
double poison
double fire
tentacool + pidg

Conclusion
I probably forgot something lmao. Again, I encourage anyone who has something to say to leave a post, it's really interesting to see if there's a general consensus or divide among certain topics in the playerbase. Apologies for not providing as many viable teams as I initially thought.​
 

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wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
following up on the above post, i have exciting news for dpp ! first and foremost, i would like to officially announce that neomon and Toy Time King have joined council! we are very excited to have welcomed them aboard.

next, after many long months without viable samples (my subtox wailord team was good but not up-to-date with the meta!), dpp council has compiled SEVEN (7) sample teams! we put a lot of time and effort into this, and we really wanted to do our due diligence and ensure that the teams were representative of the meta we are currently experiencing, and i hope you all will think so as well. they can be found here in the dpp op.

i also definitely need to acknowledge the elephant walrus in the room. a lot of folks have been asking for action to be taken against walrein, and council has seen these requests. pro-ban sentiments claim that it is nearly identical to lapras, which was banned during this past zupl just over two months ago, in the fact that they are both have water and ice stab, have similar stats (shown below), and have few answers, and that players are often forced to trade damage on each other in a mirror match-up in order to make progress. however, the two have key differences. lapras is water/ice and walrein is ice/water, lapras has higher base hp and spdef, water absorb as an ability, and access to hydro pump and thunderbolt, and could run physical boosting sets using curse and dragon dance, which made checking it with traditional answers (not that many existed) much more difficult. in the end, the former members of the dpp council (including me) felt that lapras was just too strong and too centralizing to be considered a healthy presence in the meta. on the other hand, walrein has 10 more base points in special attack and 5 more in speed, which you could argue makes it better than lapras, but lacking hydro pump and thunderbolt is a big loss. additionally, walrein has support options like encore and yawn that lapras does not that can make checking it that much harder. toxic is also noteworthy, as both have used toxic to success in the past, but isnt something that distinguishes them much from one another.



but despite all this, dpp council does not want to take action on walrein at this time. we truly want to see the meta develop more outside of a tournament setting before we decide if walrein is truly too strong for the tier or not. we absolutely acknowledge that walrein is an extremely good pick in the meta rn, and is meta-defining too; if you dont have a walrein answer (and yes, they do exist!), you are putting yourself at risk of losing to one. this isnt to say that walrein will not be looked at and possibly even suspected or even banned in the the future, but for the current point in time, we are keeping a watchful eye and it will remain legal in the tier.

and with that, a huge weight has finally been lifted off my shoulders. i really wanted to emphasize the importance of compiling these samples for newer players in the zu room who might be interested in picking up the tier whenever theres a room tour or someone looking for friendlies, and that for a long time, the tier was largely inaccessible due to a noticeable lack of samples. whenever i wanted to play dpp or host a room tour, i had to stifle myself because there simply was just no way for inexperienced folks to jump right in because we only had the one sample, and it was mine! i think my team has done a really wonderful job on this, and i really want to extend my gratitude to them for dealing with all of my neuroses on this project for the aforementioned reasons. and not only that, but our council is still so new, and everyone involved really just jumped right into discussions, building, sharing past teams, and the likes. it's been really great working with you all so far!

as for what the future holds for dpp: our next order of business will be updating the vr and other resources like the role compendium and speed tiers document, but the vr is our biggest priority. im really looking forward to putting in this work, and thank you all for reading my dpp dissertation! :woop:
 

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
ADV Team Building Lab
Castform GIF - Castform - Discover & Share GIFs


Welcome to ADV ZU's newest project! During a scheduled time, one of the ZU Council members will host what's known as a "Team Building Lab." The ZU community will come together during these labs and build an ADV ZU team. The way this happens is by your suggestions in chat! When enough support is voiced for an idea a short poll will be made for the participants to vote in. These polls decide how the team will look in the end. After the team is created a tournament will be held so the team can see some action. Below all teams will be archived so that they're easy to access and use!
October 1st, 2022 5 pm CST




:wo:


If you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask them on Discord or PS!
 
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Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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Moderator
DPP ZU post:bat:

I love the meta and community right now, and one of my favorite things is to look at the ton of different Normal types we have available and how to utilize them/what niche they bring to the table. I will go over what I believe to be the ones worth mentioning, tho some I haven't seen or used so I potentially leave some out that I don't feel strong on writing about. Also in no particular order.


:Bibarel:
Bibarel is a cool pick on offense and hyper offense alike. It excels in the lead slot as the fastest Stealth Rock user - bar Diglett - that additionally has access to Taunt which prevents opposing hazards or other utility options. The last two moves are rather flexible and up to you; I try listing what I believe to give you the most value out of a HO lead. STABs are self-explanatory with Waterfall and Return being the most used options; Double-Edge can be cool and works similar to other suicide leads across generations with the recoil KOing you when you're brought down to 1HP. The last move is even more up to you, various status moves (Yawn, TWave) - with Protect helping to keep your Focus Dash in tact versus Fake Out - and secondary attacks; obviously you can run dual STAB. Quick Attack is supposed to beat other potential Focus Sash pokemon, and gives general priority which is never bad. Superfang can be used to dent bulky leads like Golbat and Arbok, Superpower is generally good coverage since Fighting type attacks are really good in this tier, and Icy Wind can you give you the upper hand vs faster threats, either with Bibarel itself or a teammate.
The other common set you will see Bibarel run is Curse + White Herb. With Simple, you get +2 Atk +2 Def, while White Herb restores the negative stat change. This is pretty much a one-trick pony and only usable once a game. The move choice is Simple, dual STAB with Quick Attack gives solid overall coverage + the ability to hit faster pokemon. This set is more niche/gimmick, since you need a lot going your way in order for it to work. Intimidate is really common in the tier and will not only reduce your stat changes in attack to +-0 again, it can at worst trigger White Herb, which basically negates your whole trick because being at -2 speed makes Bibarel a lot easier to revengekill. Not as good in my eyes, but still a trick up Bibarel's sleeve


:Chatot:
While being more one-dimensional, Chatot still has some options to mix up its moveset. Its flagship set in my tests has been a Choice Scarf set, given its above average speed and additonal access to U-turn. It gets the jump on quite a few common set up sweeper like +2 +speed Crawdaunt and +2 Whiscash which is incrdible to have. It can also run non-choiced sets to good success given its access to great utility moves like Encore, Nasty Plot and Agility, and Roost. It is very well possible to run this as an AoA attacker. Personally, I don't like that as much, given how hard it is to keep Stealth Rock off and you have so little longevity it feels like it dies before having any notable impact; if anyone still likes to use this, that is totally fine of course.


:Exploud:
One of my favorite pokemon of all time. BeatsBlack and I tried to optimize this pokemon and find out what its real niche is. It faces stiff competition; Granbull is stronger with similar good coverage tho slower, Stantler is faster (and a tiny bit stronger depending on its nature) and has Intimidate, giving it pretty good utility throughout the match. Exploud sets itself appart from being a good midground between the two; It is a lot more bulky overall since it can run more defensive investment than Stantler, while still outspeeding more than what Granbull outspeeds (not accounting for Quick Feet). Furthermore, it has access to a lot of coverage options, making it less predictable in your way of defensively checking it. Its bread and butter tho has to be Overheat (Fire coverage). Its special attack is high enough where even uninvested Overheat stings a lot of common physically defensive pokemon like Mawile, Gloom and Grotle. Its decent special attack allows it to perform perfectly as a mixed wallbreaker with a strong STAB Double-Edge.
tl;dr very good mixed wallbreaker.


:Fearow:
BeatsBlack favorite pokemon I guess since he is literally spamming it vs me. This one is even more one-dimensional than Chatot; base 100 speed basically screams Choice Scarf or Choice Band. STABs (Return + Drill Peck) + U-turn and a last move that is somewhat flexible gives it not too many options to make it diverse, tho the last move can potentially be lethal. As a last move, I have used Quick Attack (on CB) to revenge some set up sweeper and the few faster pokemon, Pursuit for obvious reasons, Sleep Talk to use it as a sleep absorber versus pokemon like Gloom and potentially Heat Wave but this is more niche.


:Girafarig:
Psychic types are super scary in dpp zu, mainly due to the lack of consistent answers, but also because you scare out some defensive staples like Gloom and Golbat. Girafarig is no expection to that, with a pretty wide variety of moves and sets to choose from. Inner Focus in a tier heavily influenced by Persian is of course something you can't ignore and is part of the reason why it is one of the best Choice Scarf user in the tier, further enabled by how incredible versitile its moveset can be. You have the option to run Trick for crippling opposing walls, Toxic for the same reason but to mainly hit Sableye, CM in conjunction with Trick to choose wheather or not being a fast cleaner or relatively fast wincon, Batton Pass for dry-passing while maintaining momentum, especially useful with one of the trapper available and a bunch of coverage/offensive move options to hit various tier staples; From Grass Knot to Signal Beam to Thunderbolt and even Double-Edge for opposing Girafarig, everything is possible. But it doesn't have to be a scarfer. Trick + CM already touches on its other powerful set option. Girafarig can easily be a set up sweeper with either CM or Agility. The combination of Psychic + HP Fighting is nearly unresisted, thus making it easy to slot on Batton Pass last to make it even more tedious to play around when playing against it. Signal Beam would mainly be the coverage of choice to hit opposing Psychic types and denting Sableye the hardest. Its usable physical attack stat allows it to run even more options to hit unsuspecting opponents with moves like Body Slam/Double-Edge or Earthquake but full physical sets are outclassed by Stantler. Girafarig truly deserves its own post with more in-depth analysis but I won't do that today, maybe someone else wants to? :pimp:
This pokemon is nuts and nowhere near standing in the shadowof Lunatone as a fellow Psychic type. I hope to see more of this pokemon in serious play as the usage in ZUPL was rather underwhelming.

:Granbull:
Slaking-lite boosts a phenomenal attack stat, further utilized by its perfect neutral coverage in Normal STAB / CC / Crunch, with the optional last move. CC can also be Eq if you want the stronger neutral hit on Sableye, tho it is weaker and Shuca Berry has been more common than Chople Berry from my experience. The last move can depend on the set you are running, Protect complements Quick Feet sets, while Taunt or Bulk Up last can turn Granbull into a deadly breaker. Intimidate has a lot of use in the metagame so it is usually more seen, though Quick Feet sets combine its coverage with more speed of the cost of longevity. You don't have to run 3 attacks of course; Granbull can utilize more utility options in one set, making sure to keep his opponent on their toes.

:Kecleon:
Kecleon was once a staple special wall with its impressive 120 base special defense. It shrugs off neutral attacks with ease and can recover reliably with Recover. Additionally, it even has access to Stealth Rock, freeing up a moveslot for a potential team partner. It has a vide variety of attacking moves it can choose from, usually sticking with Return as its primary attack, but it can very well run BoltBeam coverage as well. Other utility options such as Trick, Thunder Wave and Trick Room further increase the value Kecleon brings to its team. Color Change is a double-edged sword. While it can help taking attacks from pokemon like Walrein in a pinch, you struggle a lot more versus otherwise not as threatening pokemon like Gloom, special Whiscash and Camerupt. Smart switching is key here, tho it sometimes can't be avoided so make sure you know which pokemon Kecleon might struggle against. It is also notworthy that it only has lackluster physical defense, making it also prone to pokemon that potentially run physical moves like Luxray too. A solid pokemon, but easy to exploid with the right tools.

:Persian:
The current sole S rank, Persian is the fastest unboosted pokemon in the metagame. That alone gives it a significant niche, but it furthermore has access to Technician Fake Out, giving it the ability to be a good check into opposing Choice Scarf user and speed boosting sweeper. In fact, it is Persian's Fake Out that makes Protect a viable option on so many pokemon. Obviously, Persian has a ton of differnt options, be it in the lead slot or in the back. As a lead you will usually face the combination of Fake Out / STAB of choice / U-turn and a last filler that is up for preference or what the team needs. The most common options I've faced are Taunt, HP Ground or Fighting or Bite. It has other options like Hypnosis or Switcheroo, but these are less seen overall.
Thanks to its access to Nasty Plot and absurd speed stat, Persian can act as a surprise sweeper in the back with Technician-boosted attacks like HP and Swift. This set is rare, tho lethal if executed right. It for sure thrives because its less common so not many people expect it.

:Raticate:
Raticate is like a slower but stronger Persian. Access to the same coverage in Facade + Crunch hitting most things neutrally. U-turn is incredibly handy in order to gain momentum on pokemon, mainly Steel types, that resist your other attacks. Sucker Punch gives it a way to circumvent its speed versus faster threats. It can also run Swords Dance, turning it into a wallbreaker nothing wants to switch into. Pursuit and Quick Attack are options as well, but not as useful and lesser seen.
I don't want to go into potential teampartners because that would make this probably already too long post even longer. Maybe I'll do something like that in the future, or someone else beats me to it. Anyway, Raticate is very one-dimensional as well, which doesn't mean it isn't good. It is a top dog for sure.


:Slaking:
Staring down a Choice Band-boosted 120 STAB Double-Edge from a 160 base attack is something not even resists like to take. But that is exactly what you will be doing when facing a Slaking. With it immense power it carves itself a niche from being nearly unwallable unless you are 4x resisting the STAB or immune to it. Now everyone knows why Slaking isn't used in higher tiers, despite its Uber-like stats; Its ability is as bad as it is unique. Giving your opponent a free turn is very dangerous, given the landscape of dpp zu. This makes it tough to justify using Slaking since you are always doing that so you are going to need a lot of offense to regain momentum, or a good backbone to make up for giving your opponent the chance to do w/e they want. A very unterutilized trait (in dpp zu as a whole) is Slaking being an immensly good Pursuit trapper. It has incredible natural bulk without investing into it and with its sheer power it threatens out a lot of pokemon. Even if they stay in and you don't get the doubled power of Pursuit, you will still dent the opposing pokemon quite a lot. Really fun to use, but inconsistent and matchup dependent.
A funny interaction is Protect Diglett completly dunking on Slaking.

:Stantler:
I personally haven't used Stantler a lot, but I fought against it and boy this thing is scary to face. It has the perfect combination of good speed for the metagame, strong offense in its stats and movepool variety, further amplifying its offensive capabilities. Normal STAB + Eq would already be scary enough, but it also has access to Sucker Punch and a lot of special attacking options like Energy Ball, Psychic and Thunderbolt. It feels like a swapped Girafarig, as it runs mostly physical coverage, but has the option to run a special attack as well with decent damage output. It also has some utility options in Thunder Wave and Disable, tho these are less seen.
I mainly feel that this pokemon overshadows Exploud (to my regret) because not hitting the rare Wormadam-Trash with a Fire move is the main drawback you have when using this over the sound pokemon.
I am planning to use this more, maybe others who used it morecan add more to its depth.

:Vigoroth:
One of the few sleep-immune pokemon, Vigoroth serves a small niche. It has a wide utility movepool with a fast Taunt, Bulk Up, Encore and Slack Off which makes it a good breaker vs fatter teams. Its special defense is pretty mediocre, so it isn't pefect at its role nor unbeatable for a bulky special attacker, but it still functions ok at its job. Substitute sets can also be quite threatening due to its coverage, tho Stantler is better for that due to its even better coverage and Intimidate. Probably a bit underexplored because it has such heavy competition in the tier as a Normal type.

:Munchlax:
In my early desperation for special walls that check Walrein, I took a look at Munchlax as a potential check/counter that still brings some decent utility to the table. Curse sets can act as bulky wincons, similar to its evolved form which everyone probably has experience with. If thats not like your taste, a RestTalk set with Whirlwind on hazard stacking teams can also be used in order to keep Walrein off the field while applying pressure to most switchins.
Tbh I haven't tested with this a whole lot, but I still see potential and I will probably test it more in the future.

:Porygon:
The only set I've used so far was an OTR one with Dowload. With a base attack of 85 further boosted by Life Orb its hits actually did decent damage. I was using 2 Atks + TR & Recover a the time, with my second attack being a HP of choice, but I can totally see 3 attacks sets or BoltBeam + TR & Recover working on some teams. Of course you will only bring this for fun and if you think you can have a good matchup but it is still a usable pick nonetheless.
In theory you can use a Trace set to reliably remove trapper like Diglett and Probopass, which would arguably be the most funniest thing ever, but besides that it would be a bit inconsistent with the abilities it can copy. The relatively high influx of Intimidate is cool for this though.


I guess people usually expect some kind of conclusion at the end of such a post. Normal types are known for their wide movepool and diversity within the available pokemon. Dpp zu features a colorful mix of physical, special and mixed attacker and walls alike, letting you pick from what your hearts desires. I am sure a lot of these have even more potential than what I wrote down, and I am looking forward to explore and face new discoveries/metagame trends.
Have a good one.

Edit: Of course I am new to the metagame, so I might've missed important stuff. Feel free to add/correct where ever needed.
 
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DEG

The night belongs to you
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I've had some fun building and playing ORAS ZU, and I'll probably continue doing so in tournaments. It is true that Balance is so dominant but I think there's some different variations of Balance that can diversify the metagame, also Rain, Screens HO, Webs HO, Stall are pretty cool in general too in a Balance oriented metagame. There's many stuff I wanted to experience with but I wasn't given the greenlight ;P. This meta is cool but its toooooo top heavy and full of threats that you can get fished by mons, diversifying builder (mons, style etc...) is critical and I think that's what we failed to do in Morpekos but w/e there's always room to learn and improve. I don't really think anything is broken tbf. Spikes are annoying asf but that's it.

Anyway, the VR is outdated asssssf, like it needs some HEAVY changes. Also ye I think lot of people have different opinions about mons and stuff here cause as I said its top heavy and diff people overestimate/underestimate threats and have like diff comfort mons.

Some mons that are drowning in the ranks for no reasons;
:seaking: This has no business being in C+. Both Poli and Seaking are fat Water-types but I believe they have different attributes so I don't believe Politoed outclasses it. Poli has a stronger offensive presence, due to its good Spa, Movepool and it has an important tool in Encore. However seaking is a Water-Type that can absorb Electric moves and spreads knocks and it does its job pretty well. I think it's a strong candidate for B+ since its definitely better than everything else in B.

:ivysaur: Amazing type, has access to knock, pretty fat, and has can stallbreaking capabilities. Fitting this on teams is easy and it will for sure punch some holes in teams. It should be A rank atleast.

:Slaking: Teams built around breakers+Pursuit trapping with Slaking are pretty good. I don't think Slaking is crazy good but it fish some very great matchup that it shouldn't be B-. B/B+ Seems fair.

Now for a personal vr;

S rank
:electabuzz: If you don't have a Pokemon that is immune to VoltSwitch/Tbolt you're in serious trouble + wearing down the immunes isn't a hard task, with hazards+status being so prevalent. You have to play really carefully around Buzz
:Purugly: Purugly is pretty brokey, its fast and hit hards, and it also gets utility moves. Defiant is broken. You have to really outplay Purugly and keep your checks healthy enough.

A+
:Servine: Leaf Storm hits like a truck specially w/ contrary + koff + glare
:Ivysaur:
:Dustox: Absorbs the T and Defog + U-turn
:Pignite: Hot take but Pignite is amazing. I think it has zero switchins without predictions, Fire Move+Fighting Move+Sucker+Heavy Slam can just punch holes if the mon is well preserved. Its downside that its slow but its offensive capabilities are just amazing. Did I say its also bulky? It is bulky.
:Simisage:

A
:Quilladin: Spikes is broken. So is Quilladin. It 1v1s popular foggers (Vib, Dustox) well forces them to 5050 atleast. , its an alright switchin into Ivysaur, it can also 1v1 a lot of SR setters. Just a great mon overall. Its a bit predictable but it does its job pretty well.
:Jumpluff: Kinda fell offbut still threatening
:Klang: Wincon+can be spdf hits absorber, good typing.
:Politoed:
:Simipour: fell off
:Carbink: Rocker+good typing+Good bulk and soft checks lotta threats and can run offensive.
:scraggy: great wincon and can spread knocks
:Vibrava: Pretty good defogger but can be taken advantage easily
:huntail:

A-
:Krokorok: Threatening asf but cannot really live any hit. Koff+EQ is hard to switch into though.
:Duosion: ye future sight
:Vanilluxe: NMI / Specs Vanilla can be devastating if it gets the correct MU which it does a lot of time. I like NMI Taunt more.
:Gigalith: good rock setter+good wall for its typing
:Magmar: see vanilluxe but specs/scarf
:Sawsbuck: good cleaner/sweeper, beats teams that rely on rock types to beat purugly.
:Swalot: good spdf sponge and typing, absorbs the T
 
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BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
1664906310189.png


BP's Obligatory ADV ZU Post
I'm sure it's no surprise but ADV ZU is by far my favorite meta I have ever played during my decade-long tenure with playing competitive Pokemon. The meta is highly diverse with so many different options for roles and each Pokemon possess a great amount of role compression. This makes building a lot of fun and testing even more. With that being said I figured I'd make another meta check-up post on what I feel is the current state of the meta. This will include cores that I've been using, VR noms, and some of my favorite teams that I've been using. Apologies in advance as I really really like Koffing.​

Cores
#109 Koffing
#301 Delcatty


Delcatty @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split / Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Delcatty and Koffing could not have any better synergy as a defensive core. Koffing takes on foes such as Rhyhorn and takes advantage of those locked into Fighting-type coverage after Delcatty scouts with Protect. Moreover, Koffing has access to Will-O-Wisp which cripples physical attackers who would otherwise threaten Delcatty. Delcatty on the other hand covers Koffing's immense weakness against special attacking Pokemon. It also is able to Wish pass to Koffing keeping its longevity.


#109 Koffing
#081 Magnemite
#351 Castform

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Magnemite @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 32 SpA / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave

Castform @ Leftovers
Ability: Forecast
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 120 SpD / 28 Spe
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Double-Edge

Koffing is one of my favorite defensive Pokemon in the meta thanks to its immunity to Toxic and access to Levitate. Koffing eats Brick Break for Magnemite and Castform while utilizing Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers for Castform. Magnemite is the token Normal-resist while its EV spread allows it to be 2HKO'd by Aipom's Choice Band Brick Break this allows it to alleviate even more pressure off of Koffing. Yes, Choice Band Aipom needs 2 defensive checks. Castform is by far one of the greatest Pokemon in the tier as its bulky attacking set is a sure-fire way to pressure weather. Castform also takes special attacks for both Koffing and Magnemite while pressuring anything that isn't a Normal-resist with Double-Edge.


#012 Butterfree
#109 Koffing
#170 Chinchou

Butterfree @ Lum Berry
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Morning Sun

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Memento
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

This is by far one of the premier status spreading cores in the meta. These 3 Pokemon are insanely valuable when paired with a set-up sweeper. Butterfree puts things to sleep although it's helpful to scout for Lum prior. It also possesses reliable recovery and a Ground-type immunity which helps ensure its longevity for a second Sleep Powder use. Its typing also supports Chinchou as it's able to come in on Hidden Power [Grass]. Koffing adds another Ground-type immunity and spreads Will-O-Wisp while also chipping switch-ins with Pain Split or Sludge Bomb. It also acts as a pseudo-physical wall that can poison things given Sludge Bomb's 30% chance. Chinchou hits extremely hard with its STAB and Ice-type coverage. This allows it to force things out and use Thunder Wave on whatever decides to come in.


#239 Elekid
#190 Aipom

Elekid @ Lum Berry
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Punch
- Toxic / Quick Attack
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Aipom @ Choice Band
Ability: Run Away
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Double-Edge
- Return
- Brick Break

The sheer versatility of this core is simply incredible. It is splashable on both Offense and Balance teams thanks to the amount of offensive pressure these two Pokemon apply. They both are some of the fastest and strongest attackers in the meta which cements their use on a lot of teams. Elekid is the second fastest Pokemon (behind Luvdisc) and it threatens a majority of fast attackers such as Aipom, Staryu, Pidgeotto, and Tailow. This makes it a fantastic late-game cleaner especially if your opponent has an Aipom in the back. Its access to Toxic allows it to threaten the ever-present Lileep while also threatening Sunflora and Bayleef as well. Aipom is the best Choice Band user in the meta thanks to its access to coverage and Baton Pass. Baton Pass allows it to act as an offensive pivot when it forces Pokemon out. The best example of this is when Aipom baits Lileep and uses Baton Pass to bring out Elekid for a free Toxic.


#192 Sunflora
#301 Delcatty
#109 Koffing

Sunflora @ Lum Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

Delcatty @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Offensive Sunflora has found its way onto teams that aren't just sun. It's by far the strongest special attacker in the meta and it's able to hit a majority of the meta with Solarbeam and Hidden Power [Fire]. It finds a lot of opportunities to come in as well thanks to its decent HP and special defense stat. Delcatty allows Sunflora to remain healthy with Heal Bell and Wish support while doing the same for Koffing. Koffing keeps Sunflora from being threatened when Sunny Day is not active as it's able to come in on Physical attackers that would otherwise threaten Sunflora and cripple them with Will-O-Wisp.


#304 Aron
#109 Koffing
#351 Castform

Aron @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Koffing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Will-O-Wisp

Castform @ Leftovers
Ability: Forecast
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 120 SpD / 28 Spe
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Double-Edge

Aron eats Normal STAB for breakfast while Koffing does the same for Fighting coverage while also checking Rhyhorn thanks to its Ground-type immunity. Aron and Koffing are both Immune to Toxic which Castform greatly appreciates. Castform is the special wall that relieves some of the pressure off of Aron and Koffing that special attackers apply.



VR Nominations
:dustox:
A---> A+

Dustox is the premier special wall in the tier. With good physically defensive it becomes extremely difficult to KO. Its Toxic immunity, access to reliable recovery, and a phasing move make it incredibly valuable for role compression. Additionally, because it uses Toxic, it can forgo Sludge Bomb in order to use more helpful coverage like Psychic which shuts down opposing Koffing. Dustox is right next to Lileep in terms of viability and usefulness which is why it deserves to be A+.

:butterfree:
A- ---> A

Butterfree is no doubt one of my favorite leads. Sleep Powder in conjunction with Compound Eyes makes it incredibly threatening to Pokemon that don't run Lum Berry. Moreover, its typing is actually quite helpful and its access to Morning Sun allows it to maintain its longevity for more Sleep Powder uses. Additionally, it can also run a Substitute Petaya Berry set which acts as an incredible late game cleaner. Butterfree is more than deserving of the A rank, as its viability as a lead and a fringe late-game cleaner make it a valuable asset on Balance and Offense teams alike.

:koffing:
A- ---> A

I've talked a lot about Koffing in all of my ADV posts. It makes great glue for balance teams and it's the premier Rhyhorn check. Additionally, its access to Memento allows it to find a home on offensive teams as well. It's immune to Toxic and Ground-type moves on top of its expansive movepool allows it to support a plethora of Pokemon in the meta.

:cyndaquil:
B+ ---> A-

Cyndaquil is more than just a Snorunt and Pineco anti-lead but also a mid to late-game cleaner. Its variety of sets allows it to pick and choose what it wants to check while also hitting extremely hard with Fire Blast even more so when Blaze is active. The fact that Cyndaquil sits in B+ is a testament to how most only use it as a Snorunt and Pineco check.

:magnemite:
B+ ---> A-
cb bb monk 2hko (Magnemite) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 32 SpA / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave

cb pidge dege 3hko (Magnemite) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 68 HP / 204 Def / 32 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave

cb pidge dedge .4% 2hko (Magnemite) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 20 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave

wooper has created 3 different Magnemite spreads that accomplish what Magnemite struggled with previously. This allows Magnemite more opportunities to use Thunder Wave and cripple physical attackers depending on what needs to be crippled. Additionally, Magnemite's typing and 95 base special attack allow it to come in on the Poison-types and use Substitute and Thunder Wave. From my perspective, its defensive typing and utility coupled with its impressive base special attack make more than viable enough to sit in A-

:spoink:
B+ ---> A-

Spoink has been gaining a lot of traction thanks to its coveted Psychic STAB and Thick Fat. Its access to Calm Mind means it can act as a potent special sweeper while its bulk allows it to act as a great specially defensive wall. It can also act as a sound lead that checks Snorunt and Cyndaquil. While I think Spoink still has some issues mainly regarding its poor physical defense its decent speed and bulk more than makeup for this.

:aron:
C+ ---> B
Aron @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Aron is Pokemon I've been building with a lot more after I saw how threatening it was in games I had against BeatsBlack. It's able to come in on Choice Band users that aren't locked into Fighting-type coverage and threaten them out. Originally, its main set was Choice Band but its bulky Leftovers set is just so much better. It's able to find a home within bulky offense, offense, and balance teams fairly easily if there's already a Fighting-type resist. Perhaps its main selling point, to me at least, is it's able to easily check Dustox and come in virtually for free on it.

:croconaw:
C+ ---> B-

Croconaw is one of my favorite sweepers in the meta. Its access to Swords Dance allows it to really shine when paired with status users like lead Aipom, Magnemite, Chinchou, and Butterfree. The Double-Edge Brick Break combo is the perfect coverage while Surf allows it to bust physically defensive Pokemon. Croconaw becomes even more of a threat when paired with Memento Koffing. I think it's on par if not a bit better than Larivtar.

:zigzagoon:
C+ ---> C

Zigzagoon is just really underwhelming. Quick Attack has the same priority as Extreme Speed and Zigzagoon is essentially just a piece of paper. Memento Koffing is almost needed to make Zigzagoon work and even then it's still fodder for Quick Attack users. It rarely ever finds an opportunity to click Belly Drum and it's too slow. Zigzagoon is just bad.

:pineco:
C ---> B
Pineco @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 116 Def / 80 SpD
Brave Nature
- Rock Slide
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Explosion

BeatsBlack invented Pineco set that is able to do more than just set Spikes and use Explosion. Pineco is able to be used as a lead or a mid-game Spikes user thanks to its decent physical defense and access to coverage. Lead Pineco is a great answer to lead Butterfree as Rock Slide OHKO's after Pineco's Lum Berry activates. Moreover, Pineco acts a pseudo-physical wall which allows it to abuse non-choiced physical attackers. Giga Drain is for Rhyhorn and Explosion is for everything else. Pineco works extremely well on bulky offense and certain balance teams.

:farfetch
C ---> C+
Farfetch’d @ Salac Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Flail
- Quick Attack

Farfetch'd is a unique sweeper as it appreciates being at 1 HP for Flail to work properly. It was one of the Pokemon that was built around for the Team Building Lab and it's incredibly threatening once Normal-resists are removed. +2 200 BP Flail wipes everything that isn't a normal resist. The only thing that holds Farfetch'd back is the shear amount of faster Pokemon and how common Normal-resists are.

:mankey:
C ---> C+

Mankey is ADV ZU's only "viable" Fighting-type. Choice Band Cross Chop is able to 2HKO a majority of the meta bar Fighting-type resists. This coupled with its access to Earthquake for coverage means its ability to threaten those Poison-types. Koffing is really the only 100% safe switch-in to Mankey. What holds Mankey back from hitting the B's is its poor bulk and its base 70 speed which means it's easily forced out by a lot of Offensive Pokemon in the meta.

:wailmer:
C ---> C-

Seaking and Chinchou


Team Spotlight
#155 Cyndaquil#192 Sunflora#301 Delcatty#109 Koffing#190 Aipom#111 Rhyhorn
Flower Power + Cat Balance

Cyndaquil ensures no Spikes are set off the lead position. This benefits every member of the team bar Koffing. Sunflora is able to come in and set Sunny Day by itself and click Solar Beam and Hidden Power [Fire] fairly easily as it's going to heavily damage a resist anyway. Delcatty helps ensure Sunflora's longevity with Heal Bell and Wish support. The rest of the team appreciates this greatly as well. Koffing helps check physical attackers and can do so multiple times with Wish support. Aipom can easily bust through Pokemon that would otherwise check Sunflora. Rhyhorn threatens and removes specially defensive Lileep while threatening weakened physically defensive Lileep with Megahorn.


#190 Aipom#159 Croconaw#170 Chinchou#351 Castform#109 Koffing#058 Growlithe
SD Croc Para Spam

This is one of my favorite teams to use as it's just really fun. Aipom leads and threatens Butterfree and Cyndaquil while spreading Para. It can also act as an offensive pivot with Baton Pass. Croconaw is the star with Swords Dance and it loves the paralysis that Aipom and Chinchou provide. Chinchou is able to bust past Pokemon that threaten Croconaw with a Modest Ice Beam. Castform stops weather while acting as a special wall that can remove Sunflora with Double-Edge. Koffing supports Chincou with its Ground-immunity while also using Memento to bring in Croconaw for free. Growlithe is the team's secondary cleaner as it's able to use Substitute and threaten a lot with Fire Blast.
 
Last edited:

skrimps

cry bozo
is a Top Artist Alumnus
Lately I've been playing DPP ZU almost entirely and, while my DPP peers covered a lot of good stuff recently, I wanted to dump some of my overall takes on the metagame too. I've divided this into sections covering 1) Moves, 2) Pokemon, 3) Cores, and 4) Teams, so hopefully it's an easier read.
If you're just jumping into DPP ZU, this should help a lot. Read it on your poop break then come back and steal the sets later -- that's what I'd do.

Also, I rarely do this, but I'm feeling generous so I've included all my exact sets for these Pokemon below (EVs and all). They're mostly optimized to my preference, so don't assume these are standard spreads you'll be seeing from everyone -- that said, I'll include Speed and damage calcs so you can see why I opt for these. Think of them as snapshots of the metagame from my perspective.


==== MOVES ====

Individual moves may seem like a silly thing to cover but there are a few key ones that I think deserve to be highlighted.

Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.06.53 AM.png

First of all, let's talk about Hidden Power. A number of Pokemon rely on Hidden Power to fill out their coverage, but what's the best type? I'm going to touch on the most common considerations -- HP Grass vs. HP Electric -- HP Ice vs. HP Water -- and HP Fighting vs. HP Ground.

Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.47.55 AM.png
vs.
Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.48.54 AM.png

This first pairing applies mostly to Walrein, where you need coverage for opposing Walrein but are debating between 4X damage on Whiscash or Pelipper, respectively. With how dangerous a free turn on Whiscash can be, and how uncommon (and underwhelming) Pelipper is, HP Grass is an easy pick for me right now. It eases midground prediction too because HP Grass threatens both Water-weak Pokemon (like Surf) and Water-type switch-ins. You also end up with super effective Ice STAB versus Kecleon after Surf into HP Grass.

Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.49.27 AM.png
vs.
Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.50.23 AM.png

HP Ice vs. HP Water is mostly a decision on Luxray, choosing to hit either Camerupt with Water or Gloom and Vibrava with Ice. This is less clearcut in my opinion, and usually boils down to teammates -- if you desperately need to muscle through Camerupt, HP Water is the move, but I've honestly been leaning towards HP Ice as of late. Even an uninvested Superpower still does 40% on a bad day to Camerupt, and not being hardwalled by Gloom can be really crucial on teams featuring Luxray and a Water sweeper (i.e. Kingler, Whiscash). Diglett pairs well with HP Ice variants too for ensuring that Camerupt doesn't get multiple free turns throughout a match.

Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.50.54 AM.png
vs.
Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.51.18 AM.png

Finally, HP Fighting vs. HP Ground is a choice multiple Pokemon have to make, ranging from Life Orb Persian to CM Chimecho. DPP ZU has Probopass, Lairon, and Mawile trading places on essentially every solid team in the metagame, so this Hidden Power coverage pokes through that. Fortunately, the decision between Fighting and Ground is usually dependent on the answer to a very simple question -- do I need to hit Sableye? Otherwise, avoiding Shuca Berry is the way to go, especially because it's being used more commonly now than ever. The Sableye question mostly applies to Psychic-types in need of breaking through Steel-types, but is it very important to note that you're likely missing coverage for Crawdaunt by opting for HP Ground (unless you have Grass Knot like say Girafarig).

*** A last note about Hidden Power -- if you're struggling to decide on a type, go over sequence of turns in your head (from the beginning, whole team) to evaluate midground plays with Hidden Power in the early game. In previewless metagames, there's more opportunity to stick to the early-game plans you make in your builder, so this can help a ton to determine the best choice for you if you want better chip on stuff.​

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Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.19.57 AM.png

For those who don't know, Encore in DPP last for 4-8 turns -- it should be obvious how brutal this can be because Pokemon don't have the option to stall it out as counterplay. A Pokemon Encore'd into the wrong move is a 100% guaranteed switch-out, making it easy to capitalize on. Recently, I've been convinced that Encore is the best last move on three attacks Walrein, and I would contend that any Pokemon with serviceable Speed and the ability to learn Encore should consider running it. For example, anything that outspeeds Mawile and eats Iron Head well can now block SD Pass by hard switching into the SD and using Encore. Even a slow Encore is viable for preventing Pokemon like Kingler or Whiscash from setting up freely.

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Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 11.23.18 AM.png

Natural Gift is more niche but incredibly underexplored. Any physical threat can customize its set to beat primary checks with Natural Gift, and this can be especially lethal on certain Pokemon. For example, SD Kingler OHKOs Gloom with Natural Gift Flying using Lansat Berry, and if the berry is popped then you still get the Focus Energy effect (which stacks on Crabhammer's boosted crit ratio in a meta where critical hits take souls). Lum Berry also turns into Natural Gift Flying while being more useful overall, but the damage drop is noticeable enough to make it questionable. Life Orb Kingler hits similar calcs with Return, but this has the added benefit of bluffing other items (i.e. maybe Leftovers if you SD freely as they switch, or Choice Scarf).
This bluffing concept applies to pretty much any Pokemon using Natural Gift as well, bluffing items like Expert Belt or resist Berries. It is worth noting that Natural Gift damage maxes out at 80 BP in DPP instead of 100 BP like in later generations.


==== POKEMON ====

These Pokemon are listed in order of viability.
I didn't touch on every threat in the metagame, but I made sure to address what I see as key trends (and underexplored ideas) in modern DPP ZU.

---

1694786160734.png


Walrein is easily the most contentious Pokemon in DPP ZU. Everyone informed on the metagame is familiar with how challenging it can be to switch into Surf / Ice Beam / HP Electric or Grass coverage, but Walrein has other options that are just as threatening. As I mentioned already, Encore is an amazing utility move and Yawn is also great for forcing switches -- both moves help Walrein to overwhelm its most solid checks (i.e. Dustox). Of course, Substitute is still great too for easing prediction and dodging status, though you cut into Walrein's health too much for my liking. Even Super Fang has merit for easing prediction and slicing a switch-in in half -- if your opponent has both Walrein and Luxray in the back, instead of trying to decide on the coverage needed to 2HKO the check, you can Super Fang and 2HKO either one after Stealth Rock chip with the respective coverage.
RestTalk Curse is a scary win condition with proper support, and it's underused mostly because the three attacks set is so strong already. I will add that the more I play DPP ZU, the more restrictive opposing Walrein feels to build around -- nothing hard counters it, so the best method for handling it is usually multiple softer checks that can dent it or force it out to take Stealth Rock chip next time. Using Trick to lock Walrein into one move has proven to be a solid means of hindering it a bit as well.

40 HP lets Walrein live a max Attack Adamant Superpower from unboosted Kingler (84.6 - 99.7% -- guaranteed 2HKO), but as you can see it's still KO'd after Stealth Rock so even minimal chip on Walrein can leave it susceptible to revenge threats.
fusk (Walrein) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Encore
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Also, for transparency, here's a semi-recent set of logs where I discussed comparisons to Lapras and the council's current stance on Walrein.
My opinion has solidified as pro-ban since then mostly because of how restrictive Walrein is in the teambuilder, but the summary still holds.
Screen Shot 2022-09-29 at 12.13.12 PM.png

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1694786194162.png


I've already posted about Kingler and not much has changed, but it's come to my attention that some folks still don't see this as an S-Rank threat. Everything I said previously still stands, and you can add in the threats that are Natural Gift coverage and Rindo/Wacan setup. If you don't have solid counterplay to Kingler in DPP ZU, you're going to have a bad time. I think this Pokemon is balanced enough right now largely because of Walrein's grip on the metagame, but I can definitely see Kingler being too strong if the other juggernaut goes.

244 Speed with Jolly outspeeds max Speed Jolly Bibarel, and going for Speed ties with opposing Jolly Kingler is rarely optimal so the bulk is nice.
coronono (Kingler) (M) @ Lansat Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer
- Natural Gift
- Superpower
- Swords Dance


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1694786207221.png


Probopass is the fattest Pokemon in the metagame, and it leverages that bulk well with it's Rock/Steel typing to check a lot more than just Persian. You can customize EVs to survive nearly anything and its movepool sports good coverage and utility moves (i.e. Taunt, Magnet Rise, Thunder Wave).
This Pokemon is a vital member of most defensive backbones and it's almost always useful throughout a match. Magnet Pull lets it serve as a pseudo-trapper if needed, and thanks to its immense natural bulk it can effectively run Shed Shell to avoid Diglett and opposing Probopass. I personally have Probopass as the lowest member of S-Rank.

68 SpAtk deals enough damage to standard Golbat spreads to prevent it from sitting on you using Roost while also guaranteeing that you break Walrein's Substitute. 252 HP and 128 Def with Bold let Shuca Berry Probopass live a +1 Earthquake (or Waterfall) from Life Orb Whiscash, and you do about 70% in return with HP Grass. I think the SpDef helps with Earth Power from something but unfortunately I can't remember exactly what.
milkrun (Probopass) (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 68 SpA / 44 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
- Stealth Rock

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1694786218807.png


Diglett is amazing. Arena Trap is valuable in any metagame and DPP ZU is no exception -- Arbok, Luxray, Probopass, Mawile, Camerupt, Lairon, and Swalot are all typically OHKO'd (or close to it) by a Life Orb Earthquake, and Diglett obviously traps any weakened Pokemon slower as well. Sucker Punch is sneaky strong and allows it to trap faster threats within range as well. Substitute is almost mandatory for trapping Mawile, and I really like it in tandem with Reversal to trap Walrein or sub-50% Grotle if needed. Rock Slide also nabs Walrein while preventing Diglett from being deadweight against Golbat (or the less common Gastly and Pelipper). Stealth Rock is fine in the last slot too if you need the compression. You can also run Adamant Diglett without losing much trapping capability -- as long as you hit 285 to outpace Jolly Arbok, you're in good shape. Diglett's trapping capabilities alone create so much advantage, but it's the ability to then facilitate threatening teammates that makes it so potent. DPP ZU has numerous Pokemon that run U-Turn or Baton Pass, making it all too easy to lose one of the key defensive Pokemon mentioned above.
pop (Diglett) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Reversal

---

1694786231532.png


Lunatone has a lot going in its favor -- Psychic STAB is really nice alongside Earth Power coverage, Rock/Psychic typing + Levitate gives it some handy resistances, and it has plenty of versatility in its sets. Rock Polish + Life Orb wins games, Choice Scarf can revenge or simply boom, and Calm Mind is viable in a standalone set with Substitute or alongside Baton Pass. Lunatone is one of the more consistent Stealth Rock users in DPP ZU and it can run an effective Dual Screens set with Baton Pass or Explosion, but I feel like you're not using Lunatone to it's fullest if it's not an offensive threat.

My favorite Lunatone set as of late has been Calm Mind with either Substitute or Baton Pass for avoiding Sucker Punch. Both last moves offer different advantages, but if you're using multiple Special Attackers (which I know you are because it's DPP ZU) then Baton Pass can be lethal. 216 Speed with Timid outspeeds max Speed Timid Walrein. Grass Knot is also a sleeper pick because it's hitting a lot of key Pokemon for max damage.
alius (Lunatone) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Baton Pass

I'd include Girafarig too but BeatsBlack and Corthius covered everything you really need to know so it would be redundant.

---

1694786245932.png


Gloom is the definition of annoying. It's a great anti-meta pick for sitting on common Kingler and Luxray sets, but the most challenging element to prepare for is Sleep Powder. Only a few Pokemon can viably run Sleep Talk without committing to RestTalk, and DPP Choice-locked Sleep Talk is disappointing too (mechanics mean it will fail after the first use). Soaking up Toxic Spikes without losing to Diglett is also quite nice. This is one of those Pokemon that I always find myself struggling to effectively prepare for in the builder. That said, certain Pokemon can abuse Gloom easily, and there is never a question of what set it's running -- exactly 252 HP / 252+ Def is mandatory for avoiding the 2HKO from Kingler coverage.
toots (Gloom) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Energy Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

---

1694786259103.png


Golbat is a great offensive pivot, capitalizing on key resistances to comfortably switch into Pokemon like Arbok, Gloom, and Grotle -- it should be apparent how useful this is for a big offensive threat like Kingler. It also baits in Flying resists like Probopass and Lairon to then U-Turn into Diglett.
It has good bulk to avoid the 2HKO from most neutral moves, and Roost + Taunt lets it sit on a lot of Pokemon. It's also worth mentioning that it can run more offensive sets like Choice Scarf or Nasty Plot, though it's flagship utility set is likely more useful overall.

56 Speed outpaces max Speed Timid Walrein, while 248 HP and 204 Def still allows you to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Persian's Return. This Golbat makes a great lead with U-Turn and Taunt, though if you aren't leading it then I'd highly recommend considering Super Fang. Doing 50% to Rock-types, Steel-types, and Luxray is invaluable in a lot of situations, and it absolutely manhandles stall.
Golbat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Taunt / Super Fang

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Whiscash is the reason Hidden Power Grass is so useful, and also the reason why I can't sleep at night. This Pokemon can viably run Life Orb, Leftovers, Sitrus Berry, Rindo Berry, or Choice Specs, and all of them are geared towards breaking through your team. At +1 Speed, Whiscash outpaces most of the metagame, but it does fall a hair short of outspeeding Persian -- this is why I'm such a fan of sets that enable you to Dragon Dance twice, effectively cutting the list of answers to Grotle, Carnivine, and full health Gloom.

228 Speed with Jolly at +1 Speed will outspeed Jolly Fearow, Slaking, Raticate, and +1 Crawdaunt, and at +2 Speed outspeeds pretty much anything besides Choice Scarf Persian. The item choice on this set is up to preference -- I like Sitrus Berry for the second Dragon Dance or eating Fake Outs, but Life Orb gives you more immediate power if needed. A +2 Earthquake is really only a bit stronger than a +1 Life Orb Earthquake, so it mainly comes down to Speed and longevity versus one-turn power.
clams (Whiscash) @ Sitrus Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

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As it stands, Dustox is probably the metagame's best answer to Walrein because it's the only Specially Defensive Pokemon in DPP ZU that isn't risking the freeze from Ice Beam. Dustox offers more that that too -- it can reliably come in on Grass-types and Luxray, and it's unsuspectingly bulky on the physical side with minimal investment so the slow U-Turn can really flip momentum in your favor. At the end of the day though, this Pokemon's viability is a byproduct of Walrein's dominance because there are just as many big threats that can abuse Dustox too.

This set is really basic -- max HP and Spdef with Careful, and 0 Speed IVs to underspeed and U-Turn on Mawile and Sableye. Protect helps regain some HP from Stealth Rock chip while Whirlwind deters setup sweepers.
cupper (Dustox) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Protect

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Psychic-types are incredibly strong, and commonly paired up for Psychic spam strategies. Sableye is the answer -- this Pokemon comfortably switches into Lunatone, Girafarig, and Chimecho to threaten with Dark Pulse, or Will-O-Wisp the switch-in. It's also a scary win condition with Calm Mind, which can be facilitated easily by nabbing the Steel-types that resist Dark Pulse with Diglett. Calm Mind lets it boost up alongside opposing CM Psychic-types too so it's never losing 1v1. I had been set on Substitute as the fourth move, but the utility of Will-O-Wisp allows Sableye to extend its role beyond just a late-game win condition. It also has a plethora of other utility moves at its disposal so it's easy to get creative.

This is the spread I've settled on recently -- 252 HP and 212 SpDef avoids the 2HKO from Life Orb Lunatone's Earth Power after Stealth Rock chip, and 16 Defense with Bold hits a jump point and is plenty to stomach Persian moves. 24 SpAtk guarantees an OHKO on Girafarig at +1. Will-O-Wisp and Recover can usually compensate for the lack of Defense, but you can opt for less SpDef if you want to focus exclusively on the CM win condition.
Credit to Corthius for his help exploring Sableye.
leelo (Sableye) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 24 SpA / 212 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp

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Safe switch-ins do not exist in the world of Lairon. This Pokemon is insanely threatening in the lead slot because nothing eats a Head Smash, and honestly setting Stealth Rock feels less advantageous. If you run enough Speed for the usual defensive Pokemon, you can find repeated opportunities to dent your opponent's team, and it's really effective as a Rock Polish cleaner if you take advantage of an intended Head Smash sack. I don't think there is a "best set" and I swap between Life Orb and Shuca Berry depending on teammates, though I do usually lean Superpower > Stealth Rock.

216 Spe with Jolly outspeeds max Spe Adamant Choice Scarf Kingler after a Rock Polish, and without a boost you still outrun most Chimecho, Wartortle, Mawile, Swalot, and bulky Pelipper sets.
lugnut (Lairon) (M) @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Superpower / Stealth Rock

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The distribution of Spikes in DPP ZU is pretty limited, but the viability (or lack thereof) of most spinners makes it an extremely enticing strategy. Whereas lead Omanyte is easy Taunt bait, Budew can find opportunities throughout a match to set Spikes by taking advantage of some key threats in the metagame like Luxray, Grovyle, and SubTox Waters. It's one-dimensional, but Grass/Poison typing and surprisingly-solid Special Defense lets it function well in this specific role, especially on slower builds (as you'll see below).

56 Speed outspeeds max Speed Adamant Sudowoodo and Wartortle with small creep, though honestly you can probably lower it a bit if that's not an important benchmark for you and you want more SpDef. Outspeeding Wartortle is really important though.
budtender (Budew) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Energy Ball / Grass Knot
- Protect

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Swalot is the blanket check Pokemon. It's fat enough to avoid the 2HKO from Walrein or Kingler depending on which defensive stat you invest in, and that's enough to warrant consideration on most teams. However, there are so many different moves and sets this Pokemon can (semi-)viably run -- Curse RestTalk, Expert Belt with four attacks, Custap Berry with Explosion, or overall utility with Encore and Pain Split. You can run it Physical or Special, with coverage that includes Earthquake, Ice Beam/Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, and Giga Drain/Seed Bomb. This Pokemon feels very customizable, and I doubt we've uncovered its best set just yet.

144 Attack breaks max HP Walrein's Substitute and is guaranteed to 2HKO Lunatone, both with Seed Bomb. It also has a high chance to 2HKO most Probopass without Shuca Berry using Earthquake. 56 Speed is intended to outspeed Wartortle and Mawile with creep. Think fat Arbok with Explosion.
putt (Swalot) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 144 Atk / 56 Def / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Explosion
- Gunk Shot
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake


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While I'm not typically a fan of dedicated leads, Butterfree's 97.5% accurate Sleep Powder + U-Turn is just so consistent. Something is falling asleep. I've found it's most effective to lean into dual powders so you can still get utility out of Butterfree in the mid/late-game, and the last slot is customizable depending on your other five.

I've been using Butterfree with Lairon in the back so you can afford not to run Protect -- it's a free switch-in and Head Smash. Tailwind offers cool utility later in the match, and plenty of big threats like Kingler, Walrein, Girafarig, Camerupt, and Lairon can all abuse that +2 Speed well. Dual powder probably works well on ParaSpam builds too, but I like it on hyper offense for immediately nabbing momentum and facilitating big threats early.
EVs aren't anything special so if you have a more optimized spread, send it my way.
sniffsniff (Butterfree) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Powder
- U-turn
- Stun Spore
- Tailwind / Protect

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Now, onto the underexplored Pokemon that offer cool potential.

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I've grouped Rock Polish Camerupt and Rock Polish Probopass together because they fill similar roles, but Camerupt is definitely the better user. Either way, you're using Rock Polish to outspeed Choice Scarf Adamant Kingler and anything below it, and firing off Life Orb-boosted STABs. This can be a great way to fit some bulk onto offensive builds without compromising momentum. 105 Base Special Attack and Solid Rock can be a threat reminiscent of Life Orb Rock Polish Rhyperior in DPP UU with the proper support. I've used this Camerupt alongside Togetic to pass it a Nasty Plot too which can essentially end the game, but I'll talk more about Togetic later.

As I said, 216 Speed with Timid outspeeds Choice Scarf Adamant Kingler, and the rest is pretty intuitive.
suvi (Camerupt) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rock Polish
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
milkrun (Probopass) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rock Polish
- Power Gem
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]

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The list of viable Rapid Spin users in DPP ZU is sad, yet Wartortle emerges as the clear-cut best user in my opinion. Staryu can serve as a more offensive spinner with Life Orb and great coverage, but Wartortle can actually switch into Pokemon to get a Rapid Spin off while also soft-checking some big threats like Kingler and Camerupt. It takes advantage of any Stealth Rock user not named Grotle which is obviously nice for a spinner. Wartortle will 100% run Rapid Spin and Surf, but the last two slots can be a myriad of things -- Ice Beam, Refresh, Rest (which I'll touch on later), Counter, Mirror Coat, Haze, Yawn, etc. It has some cool utility options. More importantly, this allows Wartortle to shoehorn itself into teams weak to Stealth Rock without compromising much momentum. Relieving pressure from Spikes is nice too but Budew is still winning the 1v1 and the poison from Toxic Spikes significantly cuts into Wartortle's longevity so it can be a challenge. However, to clarify, your team has to be reeeally weak to hazards to justify running Rapid Spin -- usually it's better to rely on Taunt or offensive pressure because Wartortle does struggle to do much else.

60 Speed lets Wartortle outspeed standard Dustox and uninvested Chimecho -- this isn't a super important benchmark so it's entirely possible that it's better to invest in more or less Speed. That said, you can't pull too much more from Defense before Life Orb Adamant Kingler 2HKOs with Return.
Without Heal Bell support for Rest, I like Counter as the last move. Ice Beam is nice for Grotle and Gloom if you want to pressure them more, but you'll struggle to outdamage Synthesis recovery. You can also lean more into SpDef to come in easier on Probopass and Camerupt.
corporal (Wartortle) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Toxic
- Counter

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I think Togetic is seriously underrated -- it has impressive bulk, great utility, consistent recovery, cool coverage, and most importantly Baton Pass.
It's one of the slowest Baton Pass users in DPP ZU which is great for passing a Nasty Plot to glass cannons. Roost is solid recovery. Encore is devious as ever. Trick is viable with Lagging Tail to either guarantee a slowpass or cripple something threatening, though you'll probably miss Leftovers against certain Pokemon. If you have a concrete gameplan in the builder, you can run specific coverage moves or resist berries accordingly to set up an easy NastyPass. You can run Dual Screens with enough bulk to still slowpass to something else after. That's only Baton Pass sets too -- Wish, Heal Bell, Tailwind, and Toxic can all find their way onto a fat pivot Togetic, though I haven't experimented with this much so viability is up in the air. Serene Grace is a stupid ability too, especially with Tri Attack, though unfortunately Tri Attack and Nasty Plot are illegal together. Regardless, this is another one of those Pokemon whose movesets have a ton of room for creativity.

104 SpDef with Calm lets Togetic avoid the OHKO from max SpAtk Timid Walrein's Ice Beam after Stealth Rock, and you also avoid the 2HKO from Probopass Power Gem after Stealth Rock. The Speed IVs underspeed pretty much everything in the metagame to safely pass to a recipient.
Ancient Power's omniboost chance doubles with Serene Grace, and Baton Pass-ing that to anything is so absurdly strong that it's worth rolling the dice sometimes -- most often you won't even be attacking with this Togetic set.
benny (Togetic) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 104 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 18 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Ancient Power
- Encore

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Mankey is admittedly paper thin, but it has a unique niche as a Fighting-type Pokemon with Close Combat, U-Turn, and serviceable Speed.
Vital Spirit also lets it absorb a Sleep Powder if needed, and this occurs more frequently than you'd expect considering how free Sleep Powder is.
It gets solid coverage options in Rock Slide, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Gunk Shot, Outrage, and DPP Payback. Think Sawk, but made of glass.
Mankey gets Encore as well which is neat, but Choice Scarf is going to be the most consistent set on this Pokemon.

244 Speed with Jolly outspeeds Choice Scarf Adamant Arbok -- you can definitely run 252 Speed to tie with Choice Scarf Timid Lunatone because the added bulk is negligible, but that tie is usually a needless risk and who knows maybe the HP will help switch into Gloom or something.
monocerdo (Mankey) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch



==== CORES ====

These are all elements of the sample teams I submitted for the DPP ZU sample update, so I thought it would be appropriate to explain them. Personally, I don't typically enjoy piloting others' teams, mostly because I don't fully understand the thought process behind the build -- hopefully this lessens that disconnect a bit for anyone jumping into the metagame using my samples.

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Persian and Diglett are a fearsome offensive pairing. It should be obvious how strong U-Turn into Arena Trap can be, and Persian demonstrates this power extremely well -- it's only true answers are all getting OHKO'd by Life Orb Diglett's Earthquake (besides Sableye and Shuca Berry holders).
Diglett is the key though, and any U-Turn or Baton Pass user (including dry pass) can facilitate it in -- I opted for Golbat on the sample because it shares checks with Persian, but Pokemon like Lunatone, Girafarig, Beedrill, and Raticate can all accomplish something similar.

While lead Persian is easily the most common set, I do also enjoy backpocket Persian. Let's use my sample as an example -- if you swap Golbat and Persian, you can bait the Normal resists early with Golbat's U-Turn and then clean up late with an unexpected Persian. If you use it like an RBY Tauros, good things tend to happen. This IV spread puts HP Fighting at 59 BP to activate Technician while minimizing Life Orb damage -- the only drawback of this is that you now tie with +1 max Speed Jolly Whiscash at 360. If you're not running HP Fighting, don't worry about the IVs outside of minimizing recoil. Life Orb Bite simply deletes any Banette set. Of course, U-Turn is great over either of those coverage moves if you want to pivot more in the early game with Persian. I covered most of what Diglett does above, but on this particular team I have Rock Slide over Reversal.
vani (Persian) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 9 HP / 30 Def / 28 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Fake Out
- Return
- Bite / U-Turn
- U-Turn / Hidden Power [Fighting]

pop (Diglett) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide

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Gloom, Camerupt, and Walrein form a simple Fire / Water / Grass backbone which functions well on most balance builds. Really the only individual Pokemon that threatens this core is opposing three attacks Walrein (and Arbok to some extent). Gloom checks Kingler, Crawdaunt, Whiscash, and opposing Grass-types while soaking up Toxic Spikes and clicking Sleep Powder. It also checks Hidden Power Water Luxray, while HP Ice variants will struggle with Camerupt. Camerupt also checks Mawile and sometimes Grass-types, though its merit is mostly for blanket checking strong Special Attackers and setting Stealth Rock. Max Speed Timid Walrein rounds this off by checking Water-types, opposing Camerupt, and pretty much anything else that it can stomach a hit from. I discussed the Gloom and Walrein sets in-depth above, and the only notable move on Camerupt is Flash Cannon to 2HKO common Lunatone -- you can run Hidden Power Grass to hit Whiscash but I don't find it necessary with Gloom and Walrein.
The obvious next member is some sort of Steel- or Rock-type but that's where you can get creative -- this trio can adapt well to most builds. Everything here benefits from being passed a Calm Mind so you can go that route with Psychic-types too.
toots (Gloom) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Energy Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

suvi (Camerupt) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Flash Cannon

fusk (Walrein) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Encore
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

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Baton Pass is good -- get over it. SD Mawile --> Life Orb Kingler can be devastating with practically nothing living Kingler's STAB and coverage with a Life Orb at +2 Attack. This works reasonably well too, as Mawile attracts Camerupt or slowpasses out of say opposing Kingler, clearing a free path for own Kingler to start clicking buttons. I normally steer clear of Double Dance stuff because it's so challenging to set up, but SD Mawile facilitates it well enough to where you can afford to only run Crabhammer and Return. You continue to capitalize on an SD pass with Agility, or you dry pass into Kingler and SD with that. If you're going to drop a move, drop Swords Dance for Superpower to hit Walrein, but Return + Stealth Rock chip can essentially accomplish the same thing.

Shuca Berry on Mawile lets you SD Pass out of a Diglett (or Probopass) trap, though Chople Berry has merit too for Superpower. The Speed IVs are meant to underspeed 0 IV pivots like Dustox and other uncommon-but-slow Pokemon like Granbull, Octillery, and Carnivine -- however, it's still enough to outspeed uninvested Camerupt. 228 Defense with Impish lives a non-Life Orb +2 Crabhammer from Kingler in case it boosts as you set up a pass.
The Kingler EVs are the same as the set I posted earlier.
lockjaw (Mawile) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 228 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 15 Spe
- Baton Pass
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

coronono (Kingler) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Crabhammer
- Return



==== TEAMS ====

As I said, the DPP ZU council recently updated all the sample teams so that's definitely the best resource for standard builds. However, I wanted to share some fun teams that are less-standard (and also less-good) that I've still enjoyed using. Hopefully these spark some creativity for readers, and I'm looking forward to seeing the cheese in room tournaments.

I'll be saving my favorite competitive teams for future tournament play, but if the meta shifts drastically then I'll look to dump those too. You've basically got all my sets already from this post though, so it can't be too hard to stitch them together.

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https://pokepast.es/0d970891723c0018

I was interested in abusing Budew on stall to slowly chip down the opponent with Spikes alongside a defensive backbone that could force switches. The team struggles with certain Kingler sets and Psychic-types, but I've found good success with the concept in friendlies and room tournaments.
The Chimecho set is the linchpin of the team -- Lagging Tail with Trick neuters some big threats, and Heal Bell on Chimecho in combination with Rest on Wartortle, Walrein, and Probopass helps to maintain the team's longevity. It's pretty straight forward to pilot so there's not much else to say. If others have been tinkering with full stall builds, I'd love to see what you're using -- I know this six isn't exactly optimal.

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https://pokepast.es/24f1bcaab90847de

This is one of my proudest creations but I understand how stupid and demonic it is too. The sole purpose of this team is to abuse Assist with Choice Scarf to get a nearly unstoppable sequence of Whirlwinds off, chipping your opponent down through hazards until they're left with only one Pokemon remaining (usually a quad Stealth Rock resist like Probopass). From there, you Trick that Pokemon a Choice Scarf and either stall out its moves with Protect or end the game with Destiny Bond. This team is 100% dependent on your opponent not knowing your six, setting up hazards, and those same hazards getting Copycat'd or Mimic'd. It's cheese at its cheesiest. The last five Pokemon and sets feel mandatory for this strategy, but you can genuinely use any Pokemon with Whirlwind or Roar as the lead to throw your opponent off the scent -- I chose Masquerain because Intimidate helps with lead Persian, and it's so bad otherwise that it almost encourages your opponent to take the free Stealth Rock.

Regarding sequences, be patient with revealing Assist -- I've played plenty of games where I'm essentially feeding in the early game by spamming Protect and Mimic, but unless your opponent knows your strategy I promise the Stealth Rock is coming. When you see the opponent's Stealth Rock user come out, you hard switch Wigglytuff to Copycat those hazards -- if you don't, you've lost the game. Wigglytuff outspeeds every Stealth Rock user in DPP ZU except for Lunatone (so it can be worth hard switching Spinda into Lunatone on a suspected Stealth Rock) but also has the bulk to eat moves if you predict incorrectly. Mimic works as a knock-off Copycat, but it's way less reliable.

Example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4zu-1666677959

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Finally, use resist berries because they are incredibly good in DPP -- I could write a novel about all the different ways to use them so get creative.
 
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GSC ZU, the 2022 retrospective

o/, its Hitmon here, it's been a while since GSC zu has had the spotlight, and with the spike in zu old gen development. I figured it would be nice to explore this fun little meta and review it's intricacies.

VR:
S

1. :gs/croconaw:
I think this mon is clearly the best in the metagame, blanket checks literally everything and the only real answer to it is itself, pretty explanatory why its the best mon in tier and should be on every team.

2. :gs/magby:
The premier cleaner in gsc zu, 83 base speed is blazing fast outspeeding the entire meta bar Diglett, its also a terrific lead, punishing Butterfree trying to get a powder and stealing lefty's off its checks like Toge and Croc, Barrier and Miracle berry rest sets are terrific as well. Its also incredibly unpredictable, HP Ground snags 2hkos on itself and Tentacool, while HP Water OHKO's Onix. Magby should be on basically every competitive team and should always be prepared for.

S-
3. :gs/togetic:
Togetic plays a valuable role defensively as one of the best answers to the tiers plethora of amazing offensive mons, Curse sets threaten late game sweeps once its answers have been removed, and Psychic wrecks Grimer and Koffing trying to punish a curse set, while also providing a stronger hit against Weepinbell.

4. :gs/smoochum:
This is a hot take, but personally i believe that Smoochum deserves to be in S-, with the only thing resisting its stabs coming off base 85 special attack being itself, Smoochum is the hardest pokemon to switch into in the whole tier, its STAB psychic is basically impossible to switch into, with even its best Checks like Rock slide Croconaw having to switch after a Spdef drop. Shadow ball allows it to 2hko itself and Thief absolutely ruins the croc attempting to wall it.

A+
5. :gs/Weepinbell:
Weepinbell is a incredibly scary midgame cleaner, with a massive 90 base attack, STAB Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder and Swords dance it threatens to kill things the second it comes in, at +2 Sludge bomb is impossible to switch into, and it can run either Giga Drain to hit Onix and to have a harder hit on croc unboosted or HP Ground to deal with the poisons trying to check it giving it a layer of unpredictability. Overall a incredibly scary mon you have to look out for.

6. :gs/bayleef:
Bayleef is a premier defensive staple in gsc zu, and basically mandatory on balance teams, Leech seed is amazing in this tier, allowing for crocs to win the croc war easier and overall just great at chipping away at mons negating their leftys. Its no slouch offensively as well, STAB Razer leaf makes any Croc run away in fear and with Swords dance, its Ancient powers and Body Slams make Smoochum and Magby unable to switch into it due to its potency, the cherry on top is having Synthesis for reliable recovery, Something Croc and Toge would dream to have.

7. :gs/diglett:
Diglett is the premiere late game cleaner pf the tier, and with a good reason, with 95 speed its the fastest viable mon in the tier and it makes good use of it with its Soft Sand boosted Earthquakes alongside perfect coverage of Sludge Bomb and Rock Slide. Its also a terrific lead, punishing Magby and doing a large amount to Butterfree, while also being able to use Thief to steal Lefty's from a Croc, Toge or Bayleef trying to switch in to check it.

A
8. :gs/tentacool:
Tentacool does one thing, however it does it absolutely phenomenally, with Swords dance and Barrier it completely counters any viable Croconaw set, and at +2 its incredibly scary, with its +2 Sludge bomb having a range to OHKO Smoochum while being faster than it and doing big damage to anything else, its Hydro pumps also punish any Magby trying to revenge kill it or a Onix trying to win the speed tie to kill it.

9 and 10. :gs/Koffing: and :gs/Grimer:
Might as well group these 2 together since they do very similar roles, just with Koffing having better physical bulk and pain split whereas Grimer hits harder and having better special bulk. Both pack a insanely powerful explosion, being able to OHKO basically anything. Haze allows them to check curse Togetic and Grimer is also able to pull of a sweep with its Curse + Mint berry + Sludge Bomb set.

11. :gs/Butterfree:
The best dedicated lead in the whole tier, Butterfree effortlessly spreads powders to put things to sleep and paralyze stuff. Mint berry should be used over Miracle berry, as it allows you to paralyze lead Magby even after it steals your item. As for attacking moves, it can run any of HP Rock (for other Butterfree, Magby and Smoochum), Giga drain (for Croc and Onix) or Psychic (For poisons and general damage).

A-

12. :gs/onix:
Onix is the tier's most reliable answer to Togetic, although it starts off weak, its Earthquake's and rock slides start to hurt after it boosts with Sharpen, it also has Explosion to really nuke things, importantly, +1 Explosion ohkos Croconaw. Overall a sollid mon albeit one with flaws.

13. :gs/dratini:
Super underated mon imo, Dragon typing is terrific allowing it to check Magby very well, its a great user of Thunder Wave, allowing it to paralyze fast offensive mons. With Boltbeam it has terrific coverage, made even better when paired with HP Rock to have a harder hit on Butterfree as well as hit Magby and Smoochum extremely hard.

14. :gs/doduo:
This mon is super scary, with terrific attack and speed. Endure + Flail cleans super well. It unfortunately has no defensive utility thou, as it gets threatened by every mon with ground type attacks. Regardless its always something you have to keep in mind.

15. :gs/mareep:
Electric is the best typing in gsc zu, and Mareep is the only pokemon with the typing in the tier (sorry but you can't prove to me that Pichu exists). Despite its mediocre stats it manages to be extremely threatening, with STAB Tbolt + HP ice hurting basically everything bar Bayleaf. To make it better it also has Thunder wave to cripple the fast offensive checks of the tier.

16. :gs/Sandshrew:
A incredibly scary late game sweepers held back by low spdef and speed, once it gets a sub up your in alot of danger, +2 EQ hurts like a truck

B+ ( the last viable mons)

17. :gs/nidorino:
Nidorino packs alot of utility alongside a good speed tier. With Lovely kiss and Boltbeam coverage it threatens alot thou sometimes its damage can feel underwhelming due to the lack of STAB, reliable recovery in the form of morning sun is great as well. Overall a solid mon albeit one with clear flaws.

18.:gs/Growlithe:
Growlithe is Magby but with a much better defensive profile, albeit it can feel difficult to fit since Magby is usually better bar some balance builds. Due to its solid attacking stats it can make use of Body Slam to threaten paralysis on mons like Magby (by this point i think you know how good paralyzes is in this tier), importantly Fire Blast is mandatory in order to OHKO Weepinbell.

19. :gs/teddiursa:
A incredibly potent curse sweeper, very slow and has lackluster bulk but once it gets going it's really hard to stop with Normal + Ground coverage

20. :gs/Natu:
This is a insanely hot take, but Natu can be quite scary on specific HO teams, Nightmare is clearly its best set being able to break through croc and toge by punishing their Rest. As Natu is extremely frail you should be using Twisted Spoon or Sharp Beak to maximize its damage potential from its stabs.

21. :gs/Ledyba:
As the last viable mon, Ledyba can be described by one phrase: Baton pass, Ledyba is the only viable passer and although it has alot of flaws, if you do manage to pass a speed boost to something like Weepinbell,you may have just won the game.


Teams
Here are some teams I have labbed and built in the oast couple of months, some of these have sample potential but overall using any of these teams should find you some success.

Standard Dual-Thieves + Mud Slap Diglett offense
https://pokepast.es/6575584f549b8538
This is your standard offense team and a extremely reliable one at that, Magby and Smoochum break throughout the midgame and Diglett cleans in the late game, Mud slap can also lead to some cheesy wins.


Standard Baton Pass Offense
https://pokepast.es/e952fd9d8dcd9296
This is a standard baton pass team, your main wincon here is to pass speed to Weepinbell and Smoochum and to sweep, Light screen and Barrier can be used to help setup and make passing easier.

Barrier Magby Balance
https://pokepast.es/2a95d2504de43209
Barrier allows Magby to deal with threats like HP Ground Magby and curse Togetic easier. 3 attacks Butterfree lets you be more offensively threatening of the bat.

Dual Thieves + Tentacool Offense
https://pokepast.es/b9037571bcd7cc06
The combo of Tentacool and Onix makes your oponent checking your Smoochum and Magby with Togetic and Tentacool extremely hard and with 4 sweepers this team can be extremely threatening.

Mareep + Dratini ParaSpam Offense
https://pokepast.es/e45f0267ea0fcbb8
The combo of Mareep and Dratini spreads paralysis extremely easily, making Smoochum a much better wincon once all its checks are statused.

Togeless Boom Spam HO
https://pokepast.es/bbe1dcdc559f8a41
This is about as aggressive a team you can get, click boom to remove croc and toge and sweep with monstrous offensive threats.

Double Powder Dual Thieves Psyspam HO
https://pokepast.es/b29e23379f04e702
With no Steel or Dark types, the only type that resists Psychic is itself, after you spread status with Butterfree, you can use the combo of Natu and Smoochum to really break teams, with Nightmare on Natu punishing Rest from Toge and Croc

Sleepy HO
https://pokepast.es/72706bdb6a2cd068
Named after 5/6 mons having rest this Offense team relies on having its attackers having alot of longevity, eventually allowing Diglett or Magby to clean.



And thats the end of this post, I hope gsc zu gets played more and explored, as there's still alot of development to be made.

Credits: Everyone who i talked to and played gsc zu with and the goat innovamania for labbing stuff with me
 
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wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
another day, another dpp update! i dont have a lot of time, so i'll just get right into it.

first, a much needed vr update!
:kingler: a --> s
:walrein: b --> s
:camerupt: b --> a
:girafarig: b --> a
:gloom: b --> a
:lunatone: b --> a
:whiscash: b --> a
:dustox: ur --> b
:exploud: c --> b
:fearow: c --> b
:granbull: c --> b
:stantler: c --> b
:budew: ur --> c
:bronzor: ur --> c
:cranidos: ur --> c
:phione: ur --> c
:pineco: ur --> c
:plusle: ur --> c
:pupitar: ur --> c
:seadra: ur --> c
:staryu: ur --> c
:vibrava: ur --> c
:wormadam-trash: ur --> c
:grovyle: a --> b
:combusken: b --> c
:huntail: b --> c
:illumise: c --> ur
:shedinja: c --> ur
next, Corthius stepped down from council following the vr voting. i want to thank him immensely for the time he dedicated to the development of the tier, i am very grateful for the work that he put in <3

finally, council has decided that we are going to be suspecting walrein. while we previously said that we were not going to be taking action, we have let the metagame develop further since then and have come to the conclusion that it is a centralizing threat in the tier and potentially too much to handle. you can click here to see our initial thoughts on suspecting walrein, and read below what councilmember skrimps had to say:

It didn’t take long after Lapras was banned for Walrein to fill the void left by its departure. Though it lacks key assets that made Lapras so potent (like Water Absorb, Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, and Dragon Dance), Walrein still sports similar Water / Ice STABs and base stats, as well as some strong assets of its own. Thick Fat lets Walrein reliably come in on Camerupt, and utility moves like Substitute, Encore, Yawn, and Super Fang all have merit as the last move on three attacks Walrein. Few Pokemon can reliably switch into Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass, and that list is reduced to only Dustox when factoring in an Ice Beam freeze. Walrein can still run sets like SubToxic and RestTalk Curse just as well as Lapras did, and on the former it even benefits from higher Speed. It restricts team building a lot, and often the best counterplay for opposing Walrein is one’s own Walrein — this is an unhealthy metagame interaction reminiscent again of Lapras.​
That said, there are ways to defeat Walrein. Ice Beam’s freeze chance is still low, meaning Pokemon like Luxray, Beedrill, and Kecleon can check Walrein reasonably well. These Pokemon will lose to a critical hit or prior damage though, and only Luxray can actually threaten Walrein well. As mentioned, Dustox can switch into any of Walrein’s moves and avoid the 2HKO even after Stealth Rock — however, it can’t threaten Walrein much outside of Toxic and Whirlwind, and drawn-out fights can be exploited by Encore. Stealth Rock can be pretty limiting for Walrein if it’s pressured enough to suppress Leftovers recovery. Trick can help to cripple opposing Walrein too but a Choice Scarf Walrein is its own threat. The challenge to list true counterplay to Walrein is a testament to how powerful it is in the DPP ZU metagame.​

following lapras's ban during the most recent zupl, walrein stepped up to do essentially the same things that lapras did, albeit with slight variations. i personally did not want to rush into yet another ban, particularly because these mons were similar but different enough in my opinion. additionally, i believed that we had underexplored options for counterplay like dustox, kecleon, and phione, but ultimately, these mons tended to be outclassed or exploitable both by walrein (depending on its set) or its teammates. for instance, being forced to switch to dustox on an opponent's walrein when rocks were on your side of the field in a metagame with 2 nearly-unviable spinners meant that you were easily whittled down; running phione just meant that you were probably werent using a walrein, which was stronger, bulkier, and had stab on ice beam, despite phione being faster and having access to uturn.

taking influence from the current swanna suspect test for sm, our pool of qualified voters will consist of users who made semi-finals of the latest dpp cup and zupl iv players who played at least 3 games of dpp zu and won at least one of them, in addition to current council members who did not meet the requirements otherwise. this may be contentious, but we felt that players participating in friendly matches in a post-tournament setting who were helping to develop the metagame further deserved to be able to voice their opinions in the same manner that tournament players and mains are able to. see the list of qualified voters below, along with their credentials.
5DotsDPP Cup
beautsZUPL
BeraldinhoZUPL
gglrgZUPL
GoblinDPP Cup
HeysupZUPL
HuargensyZUPL; DPP Cup; Council
JabbaTheGriffinZUPL
LunalaZUPL
neomonZUPL; Council
ProcrastinasianZUPL
Shing'n StreetsDPP Cup
skrimpsCouncil
TheFranklinDPP Cup
Toy Time KingZUPL; Council
wooperCouncil; TL
if you believe that you qualify under these conditions but are not listed above, please let me know, and i'll be happy to look into it for you! additionally, if you do qualify, but do not wish to vote, please also let me know so that i can take that into consideration when the times comes to vote.

we want to give folks the opportunity to discuss walrein's impact on the metagame further before jumping straight into a voting slate. feel free to do so in this thread, in the old gens channel of the zu discord, or in the zu room on showdown as appropriate. this discussion period will end friday, october 21 at 11:59 pm gmt -4, and the voting period will start immediately on saturday, october 22 at 12:00 am and will end sunday, october 30 at 11:59 pm.
 
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Beraldo

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
I won't be saying too much about this suspect, but I think Walrein is something that indeed has to go. During my ZUPL run, after the Lapras ban, I did catch myself a lot of times having trouble trying to cover this mon in the builder without using my own Walrein, and it is not something healthy for the meta. Some people may argue that it is slow and hazards weak, but it doesn't matter at all when it's bulky and strong enough with its water + ice coverage to justify these weaknesses. Of course, it isn't impossible to break: you can put rocks up and exert offensive pressure to keep it in check, but it has some flaws since nothing really wants to switch into its coverage, and Walrein can also run Substitute or Yawn and just start picking from there. Basically, it feels that whoever puts your Walrein in the field first wins the game, which is completely nonsense and braindead. I will be voting ban.
 

Teh

the saint
is a Pre-Contributor
RBY ZU Thoughts

Gonna keep this relatively quick because I tried longposting 2 times and it got lost in drafts both times :(. I won't be writing about the super deep intricacies of the tier, but you can dm me on Discord (Teh#5211) or talk to me in the RBY Discord server if you want to discuss more.​

1666145044086.png

HIGHKEY BROKEN! Every serious game of ZU should use this guy. Very fast with access to the most reliable partial-trapping in Wrap, can paralyze mons faster than it with Glare (and then use Wrap on it), and has great coverage in Earthquake + Mega Drain/Rock Slide. TBH should be banned!

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Have you ever seen Rhydon in OU and wished you could also wall Normal types too? Then, I have the mon for you! This guy completely stops any normal or electric (barring Pikachu) from making progress. Onix also has a good speed tier and not-so-terrible attacking prowess, which prevents a lot of things from switching into it. STAB EQ and RS are obviously great in this tier. Just make sure to avoid getting hit with Toxic (and don't switch it into Flareon EVER)


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If Arbok is ever banned, I can see Flareon rising to #1. Base 130 attack and a Special stat of 110 with STAB Fire Blast. Absolutely nothing wants to switch into it, except Kabuto (and Flareon can just use Fire Spin to pivot out for free 70% of the time.) Unfortunately, it falls just short speed-wise, which leads it to having unfavourable matchups against Onix and Arbok, and being prone to being revenge-killed. Still great though.

1666145086959.png

PROBABLY RISING TO PU!!! The most coin-flippy mon in the tier. Besides relying on hitting Hypnosis with its abysmal bulk, it also speed ties with Arbok and dies to EQ 66.7% of the time. Sometimes you have to pray to the RNG gods to get the most out of Gastly. But if you get the rolls you need, you can seriously start to pop off. Gastly works well as either a lead or a cleaner.

1666144169920.png
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I like to refer to these two as "the Normals" since they're pretty similar. Thanks to RBY's lovely game design, these two only have access to Normal-type moves and the 35BP Wing Attack for Gastly.

Pidgeot serves well as a mid-game progress-maker. It can hit Onix with Toxic to put it on a timer and hit with devastating STAB Double Edges and Hyper Beams. Be prepared to switch out against a healthy Gastly and Onix/Kabuto.

Scyther unfortunately can't afford to slot Toxic into it's moveset. It makes up for it by gaining Slash and Swords Dance and being the fastest mon in the tier. If an opposing Onix or Kabuto is removed, Scyther can easily kill an entire team.

Lesser Threats (Unordered)
1666145115942.png

My opinion has definitely changed for the worse on Marowak. It's abysmal Speed and Special bulk has come to hurt it a lot more recently. However, it being arguably the best Onix switch-in and having the strongest EQ in the tier will always make it notable.


1666145126678.png

Outspeeds Arbok and threatens with Body Slam. Can 2HKO Onix with Submission, and can hit Flying types with Rock Slide. Primape is definetely jack-of-all-trades mon. Very solid at minimum.


1666145134235.png

Couldn't find a sprite that fits the format of the others. The fastest mon wirh Access to Sleep Powder. Is still slower than Gastly, but if you want a more reliable way of spreading sleep, this is the way to do it. Outside of that, Butterfree also has access to the rare Psychic to hit Arbok, and Mega Drain can be used to hit Onix and Kabuto.

1666145147278.png

Would be broken if Ground and Grass types didn't exist. With so much of the tier walling it, it's very hard for Magneton to do anything. At least it can bait Onix in and toxic it :)


1666145153460.png

Very good at being very fast. Outspeeds almost everything in the tier and OHKOs Gastly and Pikachu, and 2HKOs Arbok. Rock Slide also lets it hit Flying types for decent damage. Probably best as a lead, but can work in the back too.

1666145161874.png

PROBABLY RISING TO PU!!! This is my "lowkey broken" pick. Can spread sleep and paralysis, can chunk enemies massively with a 100% crit Razor Leaf, and can use Wrap on slower/paralyzed mons.

1666145170641.png

An electric that oustpeeds and OHKOs Onix with Surf. Pikachu is guaranteed to do at least something for 1/2 turns, which is very valuable in a tier where its difficult to spread paralysis.

1666145175824.png

Very good at switching into the Normals and Flareon. Make sure to run Rest to you can keep switching in without getting worn down. Having a strong Surf and Blizzard is very nice too.

1666145181786.png

The fastest partial trapper in the tier, outspeeding even Arbok. However, Fire Spin's unreliable accuracy makes you very prone to hax. Just don't miss.

1666145186862.png

TBH I think Weepinbell is just better but if you REALLY don't want to miss sleep moves, this is your guy.

1666145195025.png

AgilWrap is mad cringe and should be banned too. Surf can hit Onix and Flareon pretty hard, and TWave can prevent a lot of things from switching in.


1666145200969.png

I'm not convinced this guy is very good, but I've seen others talk about it so I'll leave it here as an honourable mention.
 
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BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
I had a late-night ORAS building session so I figured I'd share with the crowd. These teams (except for Ugly Pede) are untested and I just got done building them so feel free to steal and tweak as you see fit. Also apologizes for the common theme I tried to get a little more creative with the builds.


Ugly Pede Balance


1666240330095.png
1666240346639.png
1666240367035.png

Glaceon Para Balance


1666240579917.png
1666240589321.png
1666240596617.png
1666240606889.png

Glalie Gourgeist Volt-Turn

1666240765577.png
1666240757778.png
1666240776066.png
1666240787555.png

FWG Balance
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
Even though I won't be voting, I did want to throw my hat in the ring and drop my thoughts on the DPP Walrein suspect test seeing as how DPP is the ZU metagame I've been building and toying with the most over the last few weeks. In my experience, counterplaying Walrein has mostly just boiled down to trying to trade a Pokemon to get a big STAB or super effective hit off on it and then revenge killing it. Walrein's absurd 110/90/90 bulk ensures it lives just any unboosted super effective attack. To put it in perspective, 252 Modest Luxray Thunderbolt does maximum 98% to 0 HP/ 0 SpD Walrein which is just ridiculous. "Reliable switch-ins" mostly boil down to Dustox which depends on Stealth Rock no different than offensively trying to force it out and eat rocks, which Dustox also has to eat in this hazard removal-lacking metagame, and Kecleon which just gets put out of comission with Toxic. Walrein is also decently fast at base 65 of which the list of Pokemon that can switch in, outspeed or speed tie and KO it before it KOes you is Walrein itself. There are also a million variables you have to run in your mind when facing this thing. Is it Chople, is it Encore, is it Yawn, is it a bulkier spread or is this Timid Max Speed? Walrein has been incredibly difficult to prepare for in the builder and warps the metagame almost just as much if not more than Lapras did during the first few weeks of ZUPL IV. I implore anyone voting in favor of not banning Walrein to share their reasoning behind why its worth keeping.
 

wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
:walrein: walrein has been banned from dpp zu :walrein:

not much more to say on the topic that hasnt already been discussed here and here by me, and here by Beraldinho and here by Aaronboyer (thank you both for sharing your thoughts btw!!)

as stated previously, the ability to vote was granted to 16 users for various reasons, and as of writing this, 10 have voted. of the 10, 9 votes were for ban and 1 was for do not ban, thus reaching the standard 50%+1 threshold that is held for current gen voting. while 6 users still have not voted (but will still be able to should they choose to do so), their votes will not affect the outcome.
Beraldinho: ban
5Dots: ban
TheFranklin: ban
neomon: do not ban
goblin: ban
beauts: ban
wooper: ban
gglrg: ban
Huargensy: ban
skrimps: ban

im super excited to see where the meta will go from here, as walrein was a very defining mon. samples will have to be updated again because all but 2 featured walrein--talk about centralizing! but the work will be rewarding and i cant wait to learn and develop with you all!
 
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Hey all,

It's definitely been a while (way too long, honestly). Just wanted to give you guys an update on a couple of things.

ORAS council is still in the cusp of getting resources updated post tournaments. A lot of us have IRL duties to attend to, and we hope you can hold out just a bit longer on that. We also have been discussing the current state of the metagame in the meantime, as well as pushing for SmogDex analysis work to start in the near future.

1667240359580.png
1667240680580.png

As a lot of you that have played or seen play of ORAS know, Purugly has been a huge influence on the metagame. Hazard stack builds have seen a huge amount of play due to the ease of fitting Purugly, and because of Purugly itself acting as anti-removal tech thanks to Defiant. Just about every playstyle has adapted and have included Normal-type counter play in defensive Rock-types in Gigalith and Carbink, Klang, faster revenge killers or a combination of these Pokémon. Council is discussing the effect this team style has had ZU, and would appreciate your take as to how you feel about them. Do you feel Purugly is too much? Are the Spike setters perhaps too good at their role? We would love to hear from you guys!

DPP has also seen quite a shift in the past week or so. With Walrein gone, a lot of the metagame is still adapting to the sudden absence of its premier, bulky Water-type. I wanted to shed a bit of light on some of the most impacted Pokémon that I've seen thus far.


1667240071701.png

Wailord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild / Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Self-Destruct / Hidden Power [Grass]

Wailord @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Bold / Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Toxic
- Surf
- Ice Beam

It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that the next best thing after the departure of a bulky Water... is a formerly outclassed bulky Water. A few things set the whale apart from ZU's former wall. For starters: Its bulk is decent, but not necessarily all encompassing. I'm sure a spread will be found later on that can more easily stomach hits from the physical and special spectrum, but with the overall power level of ZU still being relatively high, It might be best to specialize in one defense or the other.

The biggest draw, personally, is its offensive capabilities. DPP is already used to the power of offensive Crawdaunt and Kingler, but it does not compare to the looming threat that is a Choice Specs Water Spout.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Wailord Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wailord Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gloom: 135-159 (41.6 - 49%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (This set is near nonexistent for the record, this is just to emphasize the over all damage output)

As you can tell, it hits hard. Very hard. Typically, you can usually just switch into your own Water-type and tank the Water Spouts with Protect and Leftover stall. That is, until they decide to click Self-Destruct. Even from 0 Attack investment, it can easily take out opposing Wailord or Dewgong from full after Stealth Rock chip. This is what make Wailord such a danger in the team builder, especially if it's in the lead slot.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4zu-1699455328-h6uhpyfzyzxwz4fj0accpcmlhtkctu9pw

Mind you: most games won't turn out as smoothly, but it's evident that the meta will have to learn to adapt to Wailord in the coming months. Speed creeping Wailord may prove to be necessary, or perhaps it will end up the way of Walrein. Either way, I'm happy Wailord gets a chance to show itself in a ZU where it's viable.

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Just going to mention these goons really fast, but these Water-types are the more specialized Walrein replacements. Dewgong has over all well-rounded bulk that puts it in the same vein as Wailord, with the main difference being its Ice-typing, access to Thick Fat and Encore support, which is huge in DPP. Huntail, on the other hand, is a much more offensive replacement in the same vein as Choice Specs Walrein. Rain Dance, while hampered by previous bans and restrictions, allows for Huntail to act as a late-game cleaner with Life Orb and Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. I haven't had enough time to assert a solid opinion on these two yet, but I would be shocked if they ended up falling off.

Just wanted to get some stuff off my chest. Work continues to call, and I got to make some deadlines. I will try to post sometime early November, though, so keep on the lookout for that!
 
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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
Wanted to drop some thoughts and feelings on some of the more under-utilized and unappreciated DPP Pokemon I've been trying out the last few weeks.

:illumise:
Illumise
Illumise sits at a very respectable Speed tier of base 85 and packs quite a punch with its Choice Specs set. Nothing really wants to switch into a Specs Tinted Lens Bug Buzz except for Golbat, which doesn't want to switch into a surprise Specs Thunderbolt. It can also pivot out with U-Turn which is also really nice for scouting early game. A crucial Stealth Rock weakness and 85 Speed being great but not like something I'd do backflips over could make it a solid C rank Pokemon for now. I think even skrimps would admit when I was playing DPP games earlier in November that Illumise was putting in more work than it should've. I would recommend people try Illumise out for themselves, it picks up more 2HKOs than you would think.

:plusle: :minun:
Plusle & Minun
Plusle is already ranked and has seen some usage in the last two editions of ZUPL. When testing both Pokemon out for myself, however, I did not notice a signficant drop in power using Minun: it being able to sponge special hits slightly better such as denying the 2HKO from Probopass' Earth Power made an impact in a handful of games I used it in. Regardless of which cheerleader you choose, base 95 Speed outspeeds just about everything, especially since Grovyle and Raticate have fallen off a bit pretty much just leaving Persian and opposing Scarfers as revenge killers. At +2 Plusle and Minun just destroy anything and everything. Being able to slot in Grass Knot frees up Hidden Power a bit which is nice.

:huntail:
Huntail
This Pokemon was underrated even in the Walrein meta, and now it just demolishes teams. Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass or Electric is all you need and Huntail has the raw physical bulk to be able to take any +0 hit from Kingler while it sets up Rain. Very little takes it on late game, and I'm glad that at least some other people like Charles are catching on, although I'm not a big fan of LO recoil for priority counterplay and much prefer Expert Belt.

:kingler:
Kingler
And then I also wanted to drop my thoughts about Kingler because apparently Kingler was supposed to be looked at after the Walrein suspect test and then DPP kinda went dormant again. This thing is just an absolute nightmare to build and play against. I shouldn't have to mandate using Gloom all the time but we don't have very many options. Exeggcute is bad, Ivysaur just doesn't have enough physical bulk, Parasect, Wormadam, and Pelipper are all weak to Rock Slide and Stealth Rock, Kingler naturally outspeeds our Water-resistant Unaware mon Bibarel, and there really is no counter to Kingler until you figure out what set it is. After a Swords Dance Kingler OHKOs whatever soft check like Gloom or Huntail you thought you had, but Choice Scarf sets demolish any sort of offensive counterplay like Grovyle or Pikachu or whatever. You can't even use Intimidate mons like Luxray or Arbok to try to check Kingler either because of Hyper Cutter. DPP ZU lacks solid Water resists, its in part why we've had to ban Lapras and Walrein. There is zero reason not to use Kingler on every team not only because its such a strong pick but because it will always at least net you a 1-1 trade at worst. I would greatly appreciate DPP Council's thoughts on the subject matter, its really difficult imo to build rn.
 

skrimps

cry bozo
is a Top Artist Alumnus
I think even skrimps would admit when I was playing DPP games earlier in November that Illumise was putting in more work than it should've.
I admit nothing -- Illumise is simply a wannabe Volbeat.

---

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Huntail, on the other hand, is a much more offensive replacement in the same vein as Choice Specs Walrein. Rain Dance, while hampered by previous bans and restrictions, allows for Huntail to act as a late-game cleaner with Life Orb and Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps.
This Pokemon was underrated even in the Walrein meta, and now it just demolishes teams. Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass or Electric is all you need and Huntail has the raw physical bulk to be able to take any +0 hit from Kingler while it sets up Rain. Very little takes it on late game, and I'm glad that at least some other people like Charles are catching on, although I'm not a big fan of LO recoil for priority counterplay and much prefer Expert Belt.
I have been preaching the gospel of Huntail for a minute now. It's pretty straightforward so not too much to add, though I will say Surf > Hydro Pump is obviously much more consistent without forfeiting too many relevant calcs. I also lean Life Orb almost 100% of the time, and I've found you don't have to worry much about priority revenge if you're supporting Huntail with Screens.
katie (Huntail) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

---

1670102672604.png
1670102680668.png
1670102687916.png
1670102696091.png
1670102701491.png

Speaking of, nobody is using Screens, and there are some cool setters in DPP ZU. Stantler and Chimecho offer solid utility outside of just Screens; Girafarig, Togetic, and Lunatone can all Baton Pass for a clean entry; and Lunatone especially has access to Explosion and Safeguard. I've toyed with crazy breakers like Kingler, Huntail, Lairon behind Screens, and these Pokemon are all much more threatening when they can't easily be revenged.

---

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And then I also wanted to drop my thoughts about Kingler because apparently Kingler was supposed to be looked at after the Walrein suspect test and then DPP kinda went dormant again. This thing is just an absolute nightmare to build and play against. I would greatly appreciate DPP Council's thoughts on the subject matter, its really difficult imo to build rn.
My first contribution to DPP ZU was this post about how Kingler was the scariest Pokemon in the metagame, and it still holds up.

I can resonate with the notion that being forced to bring Gloom or Grotle on every balance is restrictive and unhealthy, and Kingler's dominance was a concern that I raised in council when we were initially discussing tiering action on Walrein. It has a handful of consistent answers, but nothing outside of those can check every set, and even the Grass-types can kind of be game-planned for through Rindo Berry or Natural Gift.

An element of teambuilding to face Kingler that you didn't mention is the potency of multiple Water-types + Kingler. We've seen a lot of Specs Crawdaunt or Whiscash to lure Grass-types to be OHKO'd by Ice Beam, opening up a lane for Kingler to clean house -- that's only one route too, and it should be clear by now how threatening strong Waters can be in DPP ZU, especially when stacked.

Now, to play devil's advocate, it's not like Gloom and Grotle are useless Pokemon outside of switching into Kingler -- both are consistent into Luxray, physical Crawdaunt/Whiscash, Grovyle, etc., and Sleep Powder and Stealth Rock are still great moves. It's also worth mentioning bulky Water-types like Wailord, Dewgong, and Phione that can comfortably switch into a Scarf Crabhammer and threaten to OHKO back with coverage. Luxray lives a Life Orb Adamant Crabhammer with minimal HP investment, and even Probopass lives the same hit at max HP. Moves like X-Scissor and Rock Slide are nice coverage options on Kingler for hitting specific checks, but these moves are genuinely so bad if your prediction isn't rewarded.

Any good balance right now should be packing Luxray + Grass + Water -- if you remove Kingler from DPP ZU, that won't change much because Crawdaunt, Whiscash, and Luxray still exist to get checked by a fat Grass.

Choice Scarf sets demolish any sort of offensive counterplay like Grovyle or Pikachu or whatever.
Respectfully, you're neglecting to mention a lot of offensive counterplay -- Grovyle is fringe viable right now, and Pikachu is a joke. Strong offenses have multiple options like priority (Persian, Raticate, Banette); faster Pokemon (Plusle/Minun, Diglett, Golbat); Choice Scarf users (Girafarig, Arbok, Lunatone); set-up opportunities (Huntail, Kingler, Crawdaunt), etc. that can be leveraged to handle a variety of Kingler sets. All it takes is one turn of Huntail eating Crabhammer to set up Rain and momentum is flipped on its head.

Overall, I think Kingler is strong, but it isn't unbeatable. You still have to make the correct plays or have the right set to make progress, especially since the DPP ZU metagame essentially revolves around handling it. That said, I don't find this as unhealthy as Walrein's presence was because Kingler actually has consistent answers -- you're just tired of using them. Walrein had zero consistent answers, and just a myriad of checks waiting to get frozen by an unlucky Ice Beam. I believe Kingler is the clear-cut best Pokemon in the metagame, but I'm unsure if it's broken -- you could argue that Persian restricts teambuilding in a similar way by forcing players to bring a Rock- or Steel-type, and Persian has outs for those too in HP Fighting and Diglett.

However, it's been tough to get a read on this metagame because, while we did banish Walrein, unfortunately Walrein still isn't banned on Showdown.
I think this alone has contributed quite a bit to the dormancy you mentioned. I don't think we can accurately gauge our next tiering action when we haven't even closed the chapter on the last one yet. I'll tag Marty and Kris so hopefully this can be implemented soon.

EDIT: Thinking on it further, Grotle can't actually OHKO back because of Kingler's bonkers Defense which is obviously a problem with handling it.
The drop off from two solid Grass answers to 'one-and-a-half' is pretty significant in terms of teambuilding restrictions, and that's certainly concerning.
I appreciate you starting this conversation because it's something that the DPP ZU council should definitely be investigating at the very least.
 
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:gs/bayleef: GSC update! :gs/dratini:

First off, Hitmonstars and Innovamania have joined the council! Congratulations and welcome to the team!

Additionally, the VR has been updated following a voting sheet with the new council, which you can find the results of below. Note that the number of shifts is due the previous VR not accounting for Poliwag's ban and the consequential meta trends that followed.
:smoochum: A+ -> S- Smoochum's unresisted stab combination, excluding opposing Smoochum, solidifies its placement at the top of the metagame as a powerful breaker, providing ample pressure for offensive teams. It's ability to steal Leftovers from common defensive Pokémon like Croconaw makes it an invaluable partner for Magby, Diglett and more.

:bayleef: A -> A+ Bayleef's perks over the other grasses cannot be understated. Its resistance to ground and access to instant recovery lets it withstand repeated assaults from Diglett, Onix, and Sandshrew. Unlike Weepinbell, being faster than Croconaw allows Bayleef to switch in more reliably in the face of Ice Beam.

:tentacool: A- -> A Tentacool's steady rise to the higher ranks has been due to its fantastic toolkit to combat common team structures. Its water/poison typing, access to Barrier, and high special defense allow it to set up on notable Pokémon: Bayleef, Croconaw, and Magby or Weepinbell that aren't running Hidden Power Ground. Tentacool's Sword Dance boosted Sludge Bombs are supported by powerful a Hydro Pump to slam common physical walls like ground types and fellow poison Koffing. With a boost from the aforementioned Barrier, Tentacool can avoid being revenge-killed by the likes of Diglett and Doduo.

:grimer: A- -> A Grimer's high HP focuses its bulk on both defenses unlike its counterpart, Koffing, which gives it much better special defensive bulk. This is very important due to the myriad of special attacks that are thrown around in the tier, which in turn allows Grimer to make use of Rest more effectively.

:doduo: B+ -> A- Doduo appreciates Smoochum rising up in viability as it takes advantage of its offensive pressure against bulkier teams while opposing Smoochum become a prime target for its powerful normal stab attacks. Poliwag's departure from the tier is especially useful for Doduo, as it is one less Pokémon that can out speed its deadly Flail set.

:dratini: B -> A- Dratini's ability to check all common Magby sets reliably is extremely valuable, alleviating the pressure off more general walls like Croconaw and Togetic. Additionally, it's one of the few Thunder Wave users in the tier which it finds opportunity to spread thanks to its typing. Dratini also makes great use of Hidden Power Rock to smack the fire types and Smoochum that wouldn't care for its BoltBeam coverage.

:mareep: B -> B+ As the only viable electric, Mareep's STAB electric attacks are a valuable asset in taking down common walls such as the ever-present Croconaw and Togetic. Access to Thunder Wave gives Mareep a way to circumvent its terrible speed while also supporting its teammates.

:teddiursa: B -> B+ Teddiursa's power, coverage, and typing give it an edge over fellow Curse user Togetic. The former's access to Earthquake allows it to threaten standard physical walls such as Onix and Koffing. It's mono normal typing only gives it a weakness to the incredibly rare fighting type, meaning it has better bulk than Togetic against specific types.

:natu: C+ -> B- Being a bit faster than Smoochum, Natu is able to contest with other base 70s like Butterfree, Tentacool, and Onix with Drill Peck, Psychic, and Hidden Power Grass/Giga Drain respectively. Natu's ability to inflict resting Croconaw and Togetic with Nightmare allows it to effectively break past the two.

:goldeen: C -> C+ Similar to Tentacool, Goldeen can boost its attack with Swords Dance while hitting physical walls, notably Onix, with STAB surf.
:togetic: S -> S- Togetic's initial dominance over the tier has been harder than ever to replicate. Its flying type, while nice for ground and grass type attacks, gives it a nasty weakness to ice, electric, and rock type attacks. Pokémon rising such as Smoochum, Mareep, and many physical attackers also hamper Togetic's capabilities.

:koffing: A+ -> A Koffing's role as a physical wall has become less sought after as powerful special attacks are becoming more common. Compared to Grimer, Koffing has far less Special Defense bulk to receive these attacks. Notable examples are being 2HKO'd by Magby's Fire Blast and almost always OHKO'd by Smoochum's Psychic. Koffing also lacks the ability to punish ground types without using Hidden Power, greatly cutting into its bulk.

:Butterfree: A -> A- Magby's immense rise as a lead has put Butterfree's position in question. Being its definitive role, more competition means Butterfree struggles more often to start off the game in the user's favor. Despite having a nearly unresisted Psychic, the lack of STAB makes it far easier to shrug off if it doesn't hit super effectively.

:Ivysaur: B+ -> B Ivysaur finds it harder to slot onto teams between Bayleef and Weepinbell's dominance as the premier grass types, thus has begun to become more specailized as a result.

:larvitar: C+ -> C Between Diglett, Onix, Sandshrew, and even niche Pokémon like Kabuto, Larvitar struggles to differentiate itself.

:machop: C -> C- Mankey's higher speed stat allows it to threaten far more Pokémon than Machop. Fighting types in general have struggled with the popularity of poison types.

:krabby: C -> C- The combination of low speed and special bulk doesn't give Krabby as many opportunities to perform at sweeping than other Pokémon.

:rattata: C -> C- Not worth using compared to more reliable, better normal types. Super Fang is its only worthwhile benefit.

:ekans: C -> UR With the rise of more reliable Thunder Wave users in Mareep and Dratini, alongside dual status spreader Butterfree, Ekans is left with nearly no useful role to warrant slotting it over another Pokémon.

:gs/smoochum: Sample teams will also be receiving an update in the future, be on the lookout!
 

skrimps

cry bozo
is a Top Artist Alumnus
OK DPP UPDATE -- WE SUSPECTING THE KRAB

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With Walrein gone, there shouldn’t be much debate as to the strongest threat in the DPP ZU metagame — Kingler.

Its incredible base 130 Attack allows it to 2HKO a majority of the metagame, whether that’s through STAB Crabhammer or powerful coverage moves in Double Edge/Return and Superpower. The only true switch-ins to Kingler are Gloom (which can be 2HKO’d a Life Orb Adamant Double Edge or Return after Stealth Rock), Grotle (which cannot OHKO back without Leaf Storm, and is 2HKO’d by X-Scissor), and bulky Water-types like Dewgong and Wailord (which are also 2HKO’d by coverage moves).​
Base 75 Speed isn’t the greatest, but it’s certainly enough to outpace Pokemon that would otherwise threaten to outspeed and KO Kingler like Luxray, Dewgong, and Wailord (all of which sit at base 70 or lower). This Speed tier also grants Kingler the opportunity to run a Choice Scarf set that can absolutely clean house if opposing checks are softened/removed and the Crabhammers are hitting.​
Kingler’s insane base 115 Defense prevents some faster Pokemon and most priority users from revenging successfully, and can provide Kingler with enough opportunity to set up an Agility or a Swords Dance (or both). Kingler can also effectively run Natural Gift and Resist Berry sets to circumvent initial responses to it, which can be especially threatening when paired with Pokemon that share checks like Gloom and Luxray. A common strategy is Water Spam featuring Kingler + Specs Crawdaunt/Whiscash (+ perhaps a setup Whiscash/Crawdaunt) to simply bully your opponent’s Kingler checks out of existence. Sets like Choice Band and ProTox Kingler also have merit, but are less used simply because the other sets are so potent. This post made by resident DPP expert skrimps summarizes common Kingler sets, and even neglects to mention a few other strong sets.​
On the flip-side, Kingler is not an unbeatable deity. A lot of Kingler’s checks can be 2HKO’d, but only by the exact set needed to 2HKO them — for example, a Choice Scarf Kingler is most likely not breaking through Gloom barring critical hits. Strong offense teams usually pack multiple ways to revenge Kingler, whether that’s through priority, faster Pokemon, own Choice Scarf users, or abusing a resisted move for set-up opportunities. In practice, Kingler’s set is usually a bit easier to determine (unless your opponent bluffs to the extreme) and can then be played around accordingly, and most balance teams are using a backbone of Luxray + fat Grass + fat Water that sports multiple ways to respond to the various Kingler sets.​
This post made by resident DPP expert skrimps plays devil's advocate to pro-ban Kingler arguments, while still highlighting some of its strengths.​

That said, it is clear that Kingler is a controversial Pokemon in the metagame, and the evidence supporting its “broken-ness” appears to outweigh arguments against. With this, the DPP ZU council will be looking to suspect Kingler. The voter pool will be identical to that of the Walrein suspect — but, to compensate for a lack of tournament games played (considering ZUPL is over), we will be hosting two suspect tournaments that will grant the winners of each a vote in the suspect as well. If the winner is already a qualified voter, then the runner-up will receive a vote in the suspect instead.

The first tournament will be held on Sunday (12/18) at 4pm EST to accommodate US folks, and the second tournament will be held on Saturday (12/24) at 6am EST to accommodate EU/Asia/OC folks. Both will be in the ZU (sub)room on Pokemon Showdown, and scouting will be disabled so don’t fret about building ten different DPP teams.

5DotsDPP Cup
beautsZUPL
BeraldinhoZUPL
gglrgZUPL
GoblinDPP Cup
HeysupZUPL
HuargensyZUPL; DPP Cup; Council
JabbaTheGriffinZUPL
LunalaZUPL
neomonZUPL; Council
ProcrastinasianZUPL
Shing'n StreetsDPP Cup
skrimpsCouncil
TheFranklinDPP Cup
Toy Time KingZUPL; Council
wooperCouncil; TL

EDIT: The winner of the first suspect tour is plznostep!
EDIT: The winner of the second suspect tour is Drud!

Voting will take place from Monday (12/26) to Sunday (1/1), and discussions in this thread about the suspect are obviously encouraged up until the final decision has been reached. If you have strong opinions about Kingler either way, please share with the class!
 
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BW ZU Thoughts
:Arbok: I am going to start with Arbok because it has been extremely impressive in my BW ZU play. What I've found is with the combination of Shed Skin, Rest, EQ, Gunk Shot and Coil, Arbok goes ham on many teams without a solid Ground or Psychic Pokemon. Seed Bomb can have merit for the likes of Marshtomp and Frillish, but you beat non-Taunt Frillish in a 1v1 with Rest anyways. Even Pokemon that you think would counter it, such as Solrock are only checks. Arbok's cryptonite is the critical hit. Without the defense boost, Arbok is frail, especially when the damage is being multiplied by 2. This means that critical usually sends your Arbok into next week. I have paired Arbok with teams that have a hard time against Meganium or with Meganium itself. It can get a free coil off and start wreaking havoc against opposing Meganium. With Meganium, it works well because Meganium can use Aromatherapy to cure status and beat Pokemon that counter Arbok, such as Marshtomp and Palpitoad.

:Frillish: I have been messing around the past few days and happened to stumble upon an interesting set for this Tomato Jellyfish.
Frailish (Frillish) @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Night Shade
- Scald
- Taunt

I like this set because it allows it to become an incredible special sponge. It can absorb hits from any special breaker than cannot hit it with super effective STAB. Even the strongest breakers, like Specs Simisear barely 3HKO with their respective Hidden Power. Specs Mothim has to hope for a Special Defense drop with Shadow Ball otherwise it also cannot break Frillish. I like Taunt because it beats spikes leads such as Shelmet and Pineco without deterring them; unlike say Mothim does on team preview. It can do its spinblocking job with ease, as Staryu without investment does about 1/5 with Thunderbolt. Lastly, Night Shade and Scald offer consistent damage and/or threaten a burn. This + Solrock seems like something that could have some potential, although a grass resist would be appreciated.

:Mr. Mime: I have yet to test this mon, but think it has some potential. For one, it is the fastest Psychic in the tier (tying with Sashbruh). It has Nasty Plot and isn't weak to rocks like Simisear is. While the Nasty Plot set can be revenge killed; Scarf can have merit because of Trick and the lack of Dark types in the tier. The nice thing about this is it doesn't have to speed tie with Arbok like Grumpig. Because of this it can easily click Psyshock or Psychic for the kill. The unfortunate part for Mr. Mime is that non-Specs sets do not OHKO with Psyshock when Arbok is at +1. However, Psychic can easily be ran instead and it still KOs from full. While it lacks speed, Mr. Mime can create opportunities for itself and punch holes in teams with what is a very spammable Psychic STAB in the current meta. I think this mon should be used more; it definitely has more to it than the naked eye suggests.

:Leavanny: This Mon seems good on paper. Decent Speed, High Attack, Bug STAB (good for Solrock and other Psychics), and serviceable bulk. However, in battle things starts to stack against its favor. It can easily be revenge killed without an Agility by the likes of Simisear, Emolga and Persian. With an Agility, it lacks coverage for any Steel, Fire or Flying type Pokémon. Rocks + Life Orb chip stacks up quickly which usually gives Leavanny only one shot to win. Maybe I am not using it correctly, but so far it has been disappointing for me in BW ZU.

:Eelektrik: Eelektrik is a bit low for my taste. It is a bulky pivot with U-turn but also has solid utility option in Thunder Wave and Knock Off. While I don't think this is a stellar Mon it most definitely has some solid utility and can facilitate a team with success. I have enjoyed it on ParaSpam teams where it can Para and Pivot to give its teammates threatening opportunities.

:Shelmet: Shelmet is the best spiker in my opinion. It has reliable recovery, which the other spikers can only dream of. Its solid bulk allows it to get up spikes several times a game. It also gets encore to prevent being setup fodder for Mothim and other sweepers. With how hard hazards are to remove in the current meta, Shelmet seems decent at the very least.

:Porygon:@Toto has used this with high success in BW room tours. Its bulk and reliable recovery are very nice, as it prevents it from being worn down quickly. However, its best set is offensive. With Download and its excellent coverage Porygon can blast its way through teams and with its good bulk not be taken down easily. While Porygon can struggle with consistency at times, it makes up for this with its high bulk, reliable recovery, good coverage and strength after a Download Boost.
 
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The long awaited BW VR update announcement is finally here! For those of you who are curious, here are the changes as we shifted from an approximate ranking to a numerical one.

animated-pokemon-petting-happy-persian.gif


abra.pngMid -> B
arbok.pngHigh -> A+
beartic.pngLow -> B-
bibarel.pngMid -> B-
clefairy.pngS -> Unchanged
corsola.pngMid -> C
cranidos.pngUR -> C
drilbur.pngLow -> C+
eelektrik.pngLow -> C
emolga.pngS -> S-
exploud.pngMid -> B+
flareon.pngMid -> B
frillish.pngHigh -> A
gastly.pngMid -> B+
glaceon.pngMid -> B+
gloom.pngMid -> B
granbull.pngLow -> C+
graveler.pngMid -> B
grumpig.pngHigh -> A+
heatmor.pngMid -> C+
hippopotas.pngMid -> B+
ivysaur.pngHigh -> B+
kecleon.pngLow -> C
kingler.pngMid -> A-
lairon.pngHigh -> A+
lampent.pngMid -> B
leafeon.pngHigh -> A+
leavanny.pngLow -> B-
lopunny.pngLow -> B+
luxray.pngMid -> B-
magcargo.pngUR -> C+
magmar.pngMagmar -> B-
magnemite.pngLow -> C
meganium.pngHigh -> S-
mienfoo.pngHigh -> A
mothim.pngLow -> B-
mr-mime.pngHigh -> A-
muk.pngHigh -> S-
munchlax.pngMid -> B
octillery.pngMid -> B-
pawniard.pngMid -> B+
pelipper.pngMid -> A-
persian.pngS -> Unchanged
phione.pngLow -> C+
pignite.pngLow -> C
pikachu.pngMid -> A-
pineco.pngUR -> C+
porygon.pngLow -> C
raichu.pngMid -> A-
raticate.pngMid -> C+
sandshrew.pngLow -> C+
seviper.pngMid -> C
shelgon.pngHigh -> A-
shelmet.pngLow -> C
simisear.pngS -> A+
slaking.pngHigh -> A-
solrock.pngS -> Unchanged
staryu.pngHigh -> A-
sandydam.pngUR -> B+
trashdam.pngHigh -> A
vibrava.pngUR -> B
vullaby.pngMid -> B+
walrein.pngMid -> A
whiscash.pngMid -> B+

A big thank you to our contributors, you can find how they voted in this excel document. We hope to begin work on sample teams in the near future.
 

wooper

heavy booty-doots
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
:kingler: kingler has been banned from dpp zu! :kingler:

not much more to say on the topic that hasnt already been discussed previously, most notably the suspect post made by councilmember skrimps or the ones linked in his post. in short, kingler could run multiple viable sets like scarf, band, SD, agility, or double dance, and could even tech items like lum, lansat, or rindo berry or moves like natural gift. kingler sports the hyper cutter ability, meaning that luxray and mawile cannot check it as well as theyd like to with intimidate, and even uninvested, base 115 defense meant that it could live physical attacks relatively easily to set up and either wallbreak or win, including priority moves like persian's fake out; often in these scenarios, persian users would have to sacrifice multiple pokemon to finally be able to take down kingler with a rally of fake out. additionally, with a humungous base 130 attack and wide enough coverage options like x-scissor for physdef grotle, rock slide for pelipper, superpower for the since-banned lapras and walrein, and frustration/return or double edge as an overall strong neutral option, kingler was simply just too strong and too unpredictable.

as stated previously, the ability to vote was granted to 18 users for various reasons, and as of writing this, kingler has received 11 votes in favor of a ban and 2 votes do not ban. as such, even if the remaining 5 qualifiers were to vote do not ban, the 50% +1 threshold needed to ban kingler has already been met. i still encourage them to vote how they see fit, however!
wooper: ban
plznostep: ban
Drud: ban
Shing'n Streets: ban
Beraldinho: do not ban
5Dots: ban
Huargensy: ban
TheFranklin: do not ban
skrimps: ban
neomon: ban
Toy Time King: ban
Heysup: ban
Procrastinasian: ban

i understand that not everyone will be happy that this is now the third strong water-type that has been banned from dpp zu in a row, all within the past few months at that, but all of these mons really constricted the teambuilder and made battles far less enjoyable (at least from a subjective standpoint for the latter). i hope that this ban will allow for further exploration of the metagame, particularly of mons that are still underexplored and underrepresented, now that you have dont to run gloom on every team and still risk losing to kingler. it was certainly easy to slap on a scarf kingler as speed control, or pair kingler with another water-type breaker like crawdaunt double crab, anyone? or whiscash to wear down shared checks, but this can lead to new discoveries in the meta and i personally am excited to mess around in the builder.

im grateful we were able to get this done before the start of dpp cup in classic V, and my team and i are looking to further update the vr and come out with fresh sample teams that accurate depict the expanding and changing meta we have now. i hope you all are just as pumped as i am for the future of dpp zu!
 

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