Resource ZU Old Gens Hub - ADV Unfrozen & Quickbans #311

Tuthur

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It is kinda nice to see some discussion on SM, as the tier isn't that popular anymore, despite being great to play.
So What's Next for SM ZU?

To be honest, I'm not sure. As far as the top tier offensive threats go, I feel that Electivire is an overall healthy presence for the tier and its removal would be disastrous for the tier. Combusken is a Pokemon that can often feel overwhelming if things go its way, but at the moment it seems too limited to actually become problematic. Swanna and Simisage stand out to me as the main two potentially overbearing presences, but both also have clearly defined weaknesses. Furthermore, Swanna was suspected only a couple of years ago, with the majority of the playerbase at the time voting for its continued presence within the tier; unless sentiments have drastically changed in this regard, I think Swanna should remain. On a similar note, if sentiments have changed, then it's worth considering the widespread effects Swanna's removal would have on the tier - Combusken losing one of its more reliable offensive checks, Rock- and Ground-type Pokemon gaining more breathing room, and so on. As far as Simisage goes - I am quite curious on community opinions in regards to Simisage, as it's one of the most reliable breakers in the tier. Furthermore, it maintains an excellent Speed tier, outpacing some Pokemon already considered fast like max speed Silvally forms, Leafeon, and Swanna. However, its lack of longevity and overall frailty are clear weaknesses that are often abused by priority attackers and faster threats, often in conjunction with hazard support.
Speaking for myself, I don't think there is any tiering action that could be done for SM ZU. Olympiad I showed that the playerbase had no interest in revisiting the ZUBL, as Throh proved to be very unhealthy with its Flame Orb set, though the Bulk Up ones were quite manageable. Type:Null could theorically be revisited alone, as it saw minimal usage due to Throh invalidating most of its sets. The defensive set is most likely outclassed by Wishiwashi, though Type:Null's lack of Electric- and Grass- weakness for the less common Fighting-weakness means it gets a better matchup into Rotom, Electivire, and Simisage. While it is hard to stay whether the Swords Dance set would be as threatening as it seems on paper. Anyway, if there is support to retest Type:Null without Throh, so just on its own, I'd be glad to have a suspect slot for it in next Olympiad.

As for bans, there are only two Pokemon that could be considered for a ban: Combusken and Swanna. I've been vocal about it since 2018 and my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest regarding them.
Combusken brings nothing of value into the tier in my opinion. It is arguably quite mediocre even, as there are many match-ups where it is completely unable to do anything, which is against Altaria and Aqua Jet Swanna / Floatzel, and can really struggle to find a setup opportunity. However, Combusken is just way too hard to revenge kill if it gets a Swords Dance up. Fightinium-Z OHKOes most Fire-resists (Golem, Wishiwashi, Silvally-Water, etc), while Thunder Punch has been used more as a way to punish Mareanie spammers. I've always felt that the inability to reliable revenge kill Combusken with a Choice Scarf user unless you switch it outright onto Combusken and the reliance on Pokemon that take way too much from a +2 move and are supposed to answer many other threats, was very unhealthy. I do see losing Combusken as a net positive for the tier, as the Pokemon brings nothing of value.
Swanna is just ridiculous. It is kinda the same as Combusken in the sense that it brings nothing defensively (except for a Ground-immunity), but it is ridiculously broken, to the point where I'm still stun it didn't get banned 2 years ago. Back then people started using Wishiwashi and Furfrou more, which quite helps to check special Z-Rain Dance and physical sets, respectively, but since then Furfrou fell out of favor, and teams have adapted to Wishiwashi and can weaken it enough for Swanna to break through it. Swanna's winrates in ZUPL have been 65%, 44%, 83%, 40%, and 72%. (22% in Olympiad I and 67% in Olympiad II, but the SM playerbase is noticeably weaker in this tournament, so I'm not sure the numbers really speak, especially Olympiad I which had Type:Null); while I usually don't like to use winrates as metric for weighting whether something is broken or not, the numbers are really crazy some years (all with Swanna retaining high usage). There is no counter to Swanna, and checks don't cover well the 3 main sets (physical Rain Dance, special Rain Dance, and Mirror Move), and guessing wrong can quite often cost you the game. The closest things are Mareanie (very flawed Pokemon that also can't check Swanna anymore if you got the wrong EV spread and get Knocked Off) and bulky Sivally forms (no recovery at all).
Ultimately I don't think removing these two Pokemon would negatively impact the tier. I would open the teambuilder and I doubt it would push anything over the board given both Pokemon are terrible defensively and not fast enough to act as natural form of Speed control.
On Simisage, this Pokemon is a late adaptation in the tier. Basically if you are not running a non-Mareanie Poison-type, you open yourself to let Simisage pick KOes. In my opinion, Simisage is balanced by the fact its STAB moves are flawed; Giga Drain is not strong enough, limiting its ability to break early, while Leaf Storm's drop means Simisage can't really pick up many KOes and smart pivoting can put it in bad positions. In my experience, Simisage also struggles with picking its non STAB moves; between Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast, and Synthesis. You definitely don't need all of them, but lacking any of them make some matchup far harder. Also Simisage brings nothing defensively, and while that's also true for Swanna and Combusken, Simisage is far easier to revenge kill, with no natural ways of boosting its speed and no priorities. I could see Simisage getting unhealthy as time progress though, as evidently it has excellent offensive traits for the tier that makes it hard to defensively handle, but the counterplay has felt sufficient.

tldr: not opposed to retest type:null, ban combusken and swanna, do not ban simisage
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
is a Community Contributor
Unusual ADV Pokemon

Throughout my journey in ADV ZU, I have come to realise that there are a few picks that could see more use in the tier, but don't due to being overlooked or overshadowed by other Pokemon in the metagame. As a result, I wanted to make a post detailing my findings on some Pokemon that are a bit unusual, yet underrated in the metagame.

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Parasect
Parasect @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 172 HP / 248 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Swords Dance
- Spore

I don't blame people for sleeping on Parasect. I too slept on it during my ADV VR post, putting it in the very lowest tier. However, there was some traits I overlooked when rating Parasect. Firstly, Parasect has a really high attack stat. It is tied with Graveler and Anorith for the second highest in the tier with only Krabby being higher, who is unviable meaning its basically the highest in the tier. Furthermore, Parasect has Swords Dance alongside Spore meaning it can take out a defensive wall like Koffing with Sleep and boost up to 2hko with Double-Edge, an effective physical option in the tier. Despite not being a Normal-type, it can abuse how good the typing is neutrally in the tier and when combined with Grass/Water coverage, it's basically unwallable. Parasect has the luxury of a Grass-STAB meaning as well meaning it is able to deal a lot more damage to Normal-resists Onix and Graveler, giving it an edge in this field.

These are all good traits, however, most people get scared of using Parasect due to its typing, with unfavourable matchups into tier staples like Quilava, Seaking, and Doduo. Parasect can get around this however by using its other resistances. For example, it can be a good Fighting-resist for when Pokemon like Aipom or Meditite lock into a Fighting-move to hit the tier's Normal-resists and its Ground resistance can come in handy to check Graveler and Onix, as it can take a Rock Slide from both while also outspeeding bulkier variants of Graveler. Overall, its a really interesting Pokemon that definitely should deserve more usage due its great offensive profile and if it were to retier it, I would say it fits nicely in the B- ranks

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Croconaw
Croconaw @ Salac Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 220 Atk / 24 Def / 16 SpD / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Return
- Surf
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Croconaw used to see a lot more use in the tier before more Water-types like Wartortle dropped to the tier. Nowadays, it's Salac Berry Sweeper set is usually outclassed by Wartortle and as a physical Water-type, Seaking has been far more popular due to great bulk and coverage for the tier. However, Croconaw still has some notable traits over it's competition. For example, having access to Swords Dance is a great trait and a trait it only shares with Lombre, who isn't good at using it, and Tentacool who has a low attack stat and lacks Croconaw's physical bulk. As a result, Croconaw has a niche in the tier especially when considering another great trait of Croconaw; it's bulk. This spread allows Croconaw to live Double-Edge from Choice Band Aipom and Choice Band Seaking cannot OHKO it either while still putting it in range of it's Salac Berry which can be exploited. It's special bulk is also serviceable when facing Fire-types and defensive Wartortle sets, who it can abuse with Substitute if they aren't running Seismic Toss as otherwise it is unable to break its Substitute.

This gives Croconaw a lot of opportunities to get a Swords Dance off and when combined with its good Attack stat and excellent coverage in Return and Surf, which also is boosted by Torrent, and you have a pretty effective setup sweeper that functions similarly to Beedrill, but notably better matchups into physical attackers and Fire-types. It's main flaw is that its not amazing into Gloom, but once that is weakened or removed, Croconaw can definitely win games and in my opinion it definitely deserves more use in the metagame.

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Delibird
Delibird @ Leftovers
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Ice Beam
- Focus Punch
- Substitute

Lastly, I want to talk about Delibird. In this last shift, Delibird has been overshadowed by another Flying-type in Doduo, who generally hits harder than Delibird does and has the covetted Normal-typing giving it an edge over it. However, that doesn't mean Delibird is outclassed. It's Ice-typing gives it STAB Ice Beam which can be great into our resident Rock-types who are weak to Ice. This particularly makes Delibird's non Choiced sets pretty nice as Delibird does significantly more damage to them than Doduo does with Hidden Power Grass, allowing Delibird to spam it's Flying-STAB more often without having to worry about the tier's Flying-resistances. Delibird also has access to Focus Punch which can be a good option for Magnemite, who also can give Doduo without Hidden Power Fighting/Ground some trouble.

Additionally, why not use both? Delibird and Doduo overwhelm eachothers answers very well especially with Delibird's better matchup into Graveler and Onix, both Pokemon people commonly use to answer Doduo. While the two do share weaknesses, pairing with an Electric-type like Flaaffy can also help fix this, while also being great because it can allow you to run bulkier Flaaffy's without potentially running the risk of being outsped by Graveler as Delibird and Doduo should successfully chip them down and deal with them overtime.​
 
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