SM RU Z-splash Webs

Been playing PS without registering on the forums for a year or two now; figured I'd get things started off by exposing the team I've been refining off and on for most of that time.

It all started a while ago: I was working on a frankly stupid PU team and looking for some Z-move that would boost physical raichu's attack stat. Instead of settling on Z-laser focus I found the Z-splash description: instant +3 attack, and immediately looked for someone who could abuse that.

The basic idea is simple: Tsareena is priority immune, gets ridiculously powerful low-downside moves in power whip and high jump kick, and Z-splash. Her one big weakness is her middling speed, making her the prime candidate for a sticky web team. With her weaknesses covered, Tsareena pulls off 6-sweeps like no other.

Accordingly, this team is built around setting up and preserving sticky web and destroying enemy flyers that ignore it.

I don't consider this a terribly viable team (for me it'll play in the 1400-1500 range; a better player could likely take it a little further), but it's certainly a fun archetype when you get used to it. Too many high-offense builds are just brainless screen n' sweep; I like a build with more options and more reasonable counterplay and more fun interactions -- it keeps things tense and makes me feel like I earned my wins.

Mons

Tsareena @ Normalium Z
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Splash
- Power Whip
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off

The star of the show. Nothing too unconventional beyond the obvious here -- a Jolly nature is pretty much required, since you'll OHKO most everything anyways unless you're outsped (exceptions to be noted later), and adamant misses out on some key outspeeds in non-scarf salazzle (with webs up), honchkrow, and jolly metagross (clear body). It also gives you the best chance of still accomplishing something if you failed to get or keep webs up.

Araquanid @ Splash Plate
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Magic Coat
- Mirror Coat

Every webs team needs a setter -- that's why we invited blue. I actually think Araquanid's overrated in this respect. I see way too many noncommittal webs teams on ladder and I think Araquanid kind of embodies that -- it's a great mon, but when it comes to actually putting up webs for its team, probably the worst setter. His lower speed and desire to run an item other than sash means you get stuck in way too many catch-22 situations where ribombee or galvantula would just speed and/or focus sash their way through and be done with it. I think that suicide lead mentality better matches what webs really should be -- no-holds-barred, high stakes hyper offense. That said, with proper play, araquanid has more potential. I think I pick him some of the time just to force myself to be better.

Dhelmise @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Power Whip
- Anchor Shot
- Synthesis

This is one of my most recent changes. I've used a few different spinblockers over the past year (including my wonderfully-stupid weakness policy drifblim), but Donphan's rise to prevalence led to me questioning whether there was any ghost type worth using that could survive both Mega-stoise's dark pulse and donphan's knock + shard. Seeing EviGaro's Qwlfish team for the latest RU teambuilding competition awoke me to Dhelmise's potential -- not only does it survive both (given full health + colbur berry), it OHKO's both back with power whip. It also takes on the hazard remover role just well enough for a team that carries enough taunt/threat and plays fast enough games that that role isn't as necessary. As you'll note, I'm strapped enough for team slots that I couldn't even manage to fit a steel type -- the role compression is highly appreciated.

I EV'd a little higher speed than the smogon NU set to punish players who think modest stoise is a good idea by outspeeding them after webs.

It's worth noting that on a team as offensive as this one, it's not even critical that the spinblocker not die on the switch -- both tsareena or vanilluxe can switch in and force conventional spinners out anyways if you predict wrong and get killed instead of switching in safely on spin.

Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Taunt

It's the standard stealth rock set. I chose Nidoqueen because the team was too physical-heavy and I wanted a ground type to absorb electric moves aimed at Aerodactyl and Araquanid. I also just tend to build teams that get dunked on by Nidoqueen and chose to play her more often to figure out her weaknesses. Tsareena needs rocks for 2 things and 2 things only: breaking focus sashes and sturdy, and getting chip damage on the very pokemon that actually wall her. Chipping down flyers is also nice, but kind of counterproductive. You generally want to encourage them switching in earlier on so they can be taken care of before Tsareena starts her sweep.

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Pursuit

For the last 2 slots I needed threats that would deal with sticky webs' 2 main weaknesses: flyers and removal. I specifically wanted checks/counters to swellow and noivern, ideally while taking care of my weakness vs the likes of ninetales and salazzle as well, especially without sticky web on the field. Aerodactyl checks all of these boxes quite admirably, countering or revenging each of the mentioned threats, winning out over scarf tyrantrum for his ability to run pursuit to guarantee their removal if they make the mistake of showing up early. Unnerve can also be really clutch sometimes, e.g. against Slurpuff. Still not completely sure about taunt over roost, but more on that later.

Vanilluxe @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Taunt

I've lamented about it in the RU chat a few times -- if you're serious about running sticky web and vanilluxe isn't on it, you're probably doing something wrong. Like Tsareena and Honch, it's one of those incredibly powerful mons that's just not quite fast enough to shine under normal conditions. Unlike Tsareena and Honch, it has ice shard to destroy faster flying types, flygon, and mega-sceptile, taunt to stop steels and defoggers it can't outright kill, snow warning to cancel out chlorophyll and sand rush, and the ability to counter Nidoqueen lacking fire blast (even without webs!).

Strengths:
- The team, and Tsareena in particular, performs ridiculously well against the likes of Donphan and Golisopod, which have become really common answers for countering offensive mons. Having a wicked-powerful sweeper that can outright ignore first impression, aqua jet, and ice shard is huge.
- The prevailing wisdom that sticky web is bad leads to it being an underplayed and underestimated archetype. A little targeted building gives you the ability to keep webs up in the vast majority of your games.
- Well-placed underutilized mons and sets leads to a nice surprise factor (though I may be ruining that with this post... oh well)

Weaknesses:
- This team tends to do poorly against opposing HO builds, which rely on screens/weather/trick room rather than webs or the like. Its inability to stall out turns barring cheesy traps by Dhelmise means their more consistent but shorter-term setups will too-often break my whole team.
- There are a few stacked type weaknesses (2 grass types is kind of ridiculous, though their roles and bulk are different enough that it's not as bad as it might be), some missing resists (hoopa's scary AF for this team) and not as many pivot opportunities as one might hope for. The team is forced to sack really often, so it has to do its job fast. This is especially treacherous on ladder where you have no idea who you're fighting.
- There's a lot of dependence on luck and/or prediction of random garbage. Clicking power whip or high jump kick (or stone edge on Aero) always runs the risk of outright missing. Clicking knock off at +3 is often a safe (no miss chance) OHKO on offensive mons when it activates, but you're often running the risk of an unexpected Z-crystal. Clicking high jump kick is often a OHKO on defensive mons, but is opening you up to shenanigans with ghost types or protect.
- Mandibuzz can still defensively check Tsareena and either defog or foul play. Not a whole lot else can, consistently.
- Some mons take advantage of one-time-setups particularly well, e.g. Intimidate Arcanine, Mega-Banette, etc.
- Pretty much all scarfers (other than tyrantrum) will still outspeed tsareena after webs. Salazzle and houndoom in particular will OHKO.
- Mono-grass isn't the best type for getting safe setups, and the current iteration doesn't have space for the likes of memento. You need a taunted steel or choice-locked priority (which is near-nonexistent in RU) or so to be likely to get free setup.

Some Tips:
- Most defensive mons will just die outright to the right move from Tsareena at +3, but a few benefit from being weakened first so that an alternate move will take them down to avoid potential shenanigans:
Avoiding HJK into protect:
+3 252 Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 175-206 (48 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 424-501 (107.6 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 312-367 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Avoiding Knock off onto Colbur/Z-move cress (particularly important vs. trick room; cress is all-too-often the difference maker):
+3 252 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 327-385 (73.6 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This doesn't really fit in this category since you'll always want to HJK vs. Mandibuzz (rather, just remove him entirely beforehan if at all possible), but here're the calcs:
+3 252 Atk Tsareena High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 76+ Def Mandibuzz: 271-319 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Atk Tsareena High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 232-274 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(posted standard and physically defensive since I swear all the ladder Buzzes are full pdef).

Honorable Mentions:
- I've run a bunch of mons on this archetype, but a few stand out:
- Rampardos: I only really had reason to run this when chesnaught was still around (zen headbutt lure lel), but boy did 165 base attack sheer force life orb do work against the likes of chesnaught and mandibuzz.
- Whimsicott: running this mon on this archetype for prankster gimmicks like iron ball switcheroo, defog, taunt, and memento (at different times) really solidified it as my favorite mon. Its versatility and ability to switch in on Zydog and Flygon were great. It'd probably do great on a different webs team, but memento is less useful when the opposing mons your support invites in also hit your sweepers super effectively, and iron ball switcheroo is just silly and inconsistent.
- Jolly Explosion metagross: perhaps sadly, in many games this was my best answer for mandibuzz. If you outspeed (which is dodgy), explosion blocks defog and dents Buzz enough to where you can switch something else in to force it out or KO it before it just heals back up, then hopefully bring in and set up Tsareena before it has another chance to come in and try again.
 
Last edited:

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hi!

I love me some webs and you don't exactly see Tsareena sweeping every day so I thought I'd check this team out.

Basic framework (so that I don't have to scroll up all the time):

Dedicated Sweeper: Tsareena
Webs: Araquanid
Spinblocker: Dhelmise
Fast Flying Type Removal: Aerodactyl
SR: Nidoqueen
Breaker: Vanilluxe


I'd like to preface my suggestions for the team with a short discussion on some aspects of the Sticky Web archetype:

RE: Sticky Web setters

As you said yourself Araquanid isn't the best Sticky Web setter as it fails to reliably keep the webs up versus both Mega Blastoise and Mandibuzz which are two of the three most common hazard removal options (the other being Donphan, with which it does deal well) despite packing quite a punch with its Water STAB. Galvantula has the advantage of threatening both Mega Blastoise and Mandibuzz with 91% accurate STAB Thunder, while also covering the sorts of Mantine and Rotom-Mow, but it falls short of reliably getting up in the morning oh no wait that's me Sticky Web versus Donphan - despite doing a very good chunk with Bug Buzz or even Energy Ball. Ribombee is an interesting option because of its high speed which allows it to outpace Noivern, which is a general nuisance to Sticky Web teams and particularly to those that aim to sweep with Tsareena. The Bug/Fairy typing provides some surprisingly useful resistances too. STAB Moonblast makes the Mandibuzz matchup easier but it still has to be wary of Brave Bird variants. Energy Ball 2HKOS both Mega Blastoise and Donphan while neither of them can kill you with a strong move + Rapid Spin (nor Ice Shard in the case of Donphan). Another option that is commonly overlooked as a Sticky Web setter is Slurpuff (Swirlix too I suppose), its niche being that it has access to two both Endeavour and Magic Coat, both of which expand on its utility as a lead. A Belly Drum set with Sticky Web in the last slot doesn't sound too bad either in theory to break some holes early on and get up the web when it's done its purpose. It also offers some nice surprise value, which I find should not be underrestimated. It also pairs real nicely aesthetically with Vanilluxe, which I find should not be underrestimated either.

RE: Spinblockers

Now this is where it gets hairy because good spinblockers are extraordinarily hard if not impossible to come by in RU. Having experimented with it a good deal in early SM RU, I've come to appreciate Dhelmise for what it is and Colbur Berry is a neat addition but in this meta I feel like it falls short of doing anything notable outside of being OK at dealing with Donphan. The many weaknesses of Grass/Ghost typing plus the susceptibility to status and a terrible case of four-moveslot-syndrome (Power Whip, Anchor Shot, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Synthesis, Swords Dance, ...) make it hard to justify this otherwise cool option most of the time - at least that's how I feel about it. Failing to outspeed Timid Mega Blastoise at -1 (unless you go near full speed with Jolly which sounds less than stellar) is tough on a Sticky Web team. Even with a Colbur Berry equipped this is not a scenario in which Dhelmise will come out on top of things most of the time especially when considering that Ice Beam does around 80% anyway. Now, I realise that it does the job of keeping the Sticky Web up even if it dies in the process but so does literally every other Ghost type and ideally we want something out of that slot that can do something before it bites the dust, right? Hoopa has some nice offensive presence, good coverage and access to Taunt while also appreciating the speed advantage provided by Sticky Web. Unfortunately, it dies to every Dark type move under the moon sun (even with a Colbur Berry equipped it dies to Knock Off from virtually anything) and a Focus Sash set, while fun in theory in combination with its Magician ability, relies on hazard removal a bit too much for my liking to be worthy of consideration (as well as not being optimal on a team that utilises Hail). Jellicent is obviously a pretty shitty spinblocker given the presence of Mega Blastoise in the tier and its failure to provide any offensive merit whatsoever. Unfortunately, it lacks the necessary basse speed to make good use of its access to Taunt too (at least when aiming to retain a good bit of bulk which is the whole point of using the jellyfish anyway). At least it can stay around for a bit thanks to Recover but as you said yourself: keeping the spinblocker around forever isn't necessary on all-out offense, which most Sticky Web teams will inevitably end up as. Mismagius is probably still the best bet overall because of its utility with Taunt (Destiny Bond too I suppose), decent coverage paired with good speed and because Nasty Plot allows it to put on some more pressure given the right scenario. Colbur Berry and a tiny bit of investment in physical defense allows it to survive both Dark Pulse from Mega Blastoise after Stealth Rock and Earthquake followed up by Ice Shard while retaliating some respectable damage with super effective Thunderbolt and STAB Shadow Ball respectively. Froslass is not a bad option either going from that logic (good speed + access to Taunt and Destiny Bond) and can even net you an extra layer of Spikes - provided you can keep hazards off your side of the field so that the Focus Sash stays intact as it switches in.

RE: Flying type removal & SR setters

I've always been pretty big on Aerodactyl but there's a reason it has dropped to NU over the course of SM. The damage output is just short of picking up relevant KOs even with a Life Orb equipped (targets such as Nidoqueen, Metagross and even Mandibuzz come to mind) and while EdgeQuake coverage is still great it leaves much to be desired having to pick from Stealth Rock, Taunt, Roost, Ice Fang, Aqua Tail and Pursuit in its last two slots (a decent Flying STAB would make it a lot more usable). Surpingsly enough, Pursuit turned out to be quite useless most of the time. However, Aerodactyl is not a bad pick here I feel and in the games I played it generally was able to hold its weight. Besides, there isn't all that many other good Flying type removal options. Choice Band Metagross with Pursuit is a possibility but I find that Choice items are often the wrong pick on all-out offensive teams because they tend to limit your range of options during the game (the reason being the lack of a solid defensive backbone to rely on). As for Nidoqueen, it did something every game and there's probably no better SR user on Sticky Web than it. Taunt comes in handy in many scenarios and complements its Ground + Ice coverage best without commiting to another suboptimal coverage move like Thunderbolt. I don't think there's much else to say here, I commend you for your picks.

RE: Sticky Web abusers and breakers


First off all: I agree that Vanilluxe is a cool addition to Sticky Web teams. Taunt and Ice Shard in particular are useful tools indeed and I probably should've mentioned Vanilluxe under Flying type removal because Ice Shard does exactly that. That being said, I'm sure you would agree that despite the Icicle Plate boosted 100% accurate Blizzard it isn't exactly a powerhouse and fails to break through specially defensive walls such as Umbreon and Registeel on its own. Fortunately, it isn't alone on the team. Strong Fighting types should make for good abusers with webs up and partner well with Vanilluxe. Besides having great dual STAB, Toxicroak sports two useful defensive features being immune to Toxic and to Water type attacks, and it appreciates not having to engage in Sucker Punch mindgames all the time (you'll still want to keep Sucker Punch for flying/levitating targets, however). It's also not bothered by Golisopod, so it might make a prime candidate to replace Tsareena, don't you think? I digress. Virizion is the overall superior version of Tsareena because it's not outspeed by any relevant (grounded) Choice Scarf users but needs a boost under its belt to really get going. It has access to Taunt too if you don't mind sacrifing coverage. On the other side of the spectrum, Medicham doesn't require set-up at all and can start kicking stuff right away. And of course there's some wild stuff that you can use like Primeape which has Defiant to punish Defog. As for other types of abusers I believe Honchkrow deserves a special mention for packing a punch right off the bat that only gets stronger as you pick up KOs, access to Taunt and some insurance versus flying/levitating targets with Sucker Punch.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I made two simple changes and I would like to present you the result. These two changes unfortunately weren't enough to transform this build into a decent team but I had a ton of fun laddering with it anyway:

Mismagius >
Dhelmise:
For reasons outlined in the "Spinblocker" paragraph.

Slurpuff >
Araquanid:
I swear this Slurpuff set has to be the best set I've ever crafted. Surf two-shots Donphan and Rhyperior and kills Salazzle after SR damage. You won't get much out of this set as a lead considering all these Nidoqueen and Metagross running around so you'll have to pivot it in during a different point in time during the match. Thanks to Slurpuff's bulk not being all too terrible you'll surive most attacks and get your webs up though. Don't forget that on preview Slurpuff appears pretty threatening to the opponent so you can capitalise on that by bluffing the standard Belly Drum set.

Here's a couple of replays (obviously not high level and I got pretty lucky in some of these but still funny):



I really tried to make this work properly (for a while) but consider this a failed attempt on my part I guess. I find that Z-Splash Tsareena is too much of a commitment for a build like this that's already hard-pressed to find good abusers. If you are interested in a Sticky Web build that features some of the more viable options, let me know and I'll hook you up with something else that I crafted. In any case, I think you still might benefit from my experience with the team and my thoughts on Sticky Web as a playstyle in general. If you end up editing the team to incorporate one or two of my suggestions from the discussion section please report back on how they fared if you find the time. Also, I hope you give my wacky edited version a try and hopefully you'll have as much fun playing with it as I did! :psyglad:


https://pokepast.es/d86faf8a851e601c
 
Mismagius >
Dhelmise:
For reasons outlined in the "Spinblocker" paragraph.

Slurpuff >
Araquanid:
I swear this Slurpuff set has to be the best set I've ever crafted. Surf two-shots Donphan and Rhyperior and kills Salazzle after SR damage. You won't get much out of this set as a lead considering all these Nidoqueen and Metagross running around so you'll have to pivot it in during a different point in time during the match. Thanks to Slurpuff's bulk not being all too terrible you'll surive most attacks and get your webs up though. Don't forget that on preview Slurpuff appears pretty threatening to the opponent so you can capitalise on that by bluffing the standard Belly Drum set.

Here's a couple of replays (obviously not high level and I got pretty lucky in some of these but still funny):

Honestly, I think this is a fairly brilliant start. Using Slurpuff as a web setter makes this not obviously a webs team by appearance, which means the surprise factor of both webs and Tsareena potentially greater. Also like the idea of a more threatening spin blocker in Mismagius.

I feel like the next step would be making up for the flaw you mentioned with Slurpuff. Is there a decent anti-lead that can be run for dealing with both Metagross and Nidoqueen? Problem is most of the best counters for both I can think of off the top of my head are a tier or two up. It's kind of frustrating how many good answers there would be to both at the same time in higher tiers, but not really in RU. Only decent one I could think of was Magmortar with Psychium Z on Psychic to one shot Nidoqueen and fire STAB for Metagross. It's got a slightly higher speed than Nidoqueen so it should work, except against scarf sets which would wreck it. Not a perfect solution. Unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot else I could come up with in the time I had.

I also noticed the team has no mega. Is Mega Blastoise or Mega Glalie worth considering here? Blastoise could be a good rapid spinner (since you didn't replace hazard clear from Dhelmise) and maybe the only other unbanned pokemon I can think of right now that could sort of check both Metagross and Nidoqueen if you gave it the right set and coverage. (Dark Pulse + Water Move.) Mega Glalie has access to Taunt, Earthquake, and might be better at killing flying types than Aerodactyl. And then you have explosion as a potential wall break tool if you can manage to fit it in. But obviously, Glalie gets checked by Metagross and would be redundant ice coverage with Vanilluxe. So steel and fire types would be harder in spite of Earthquake coverage, which isn't ideal on this team for many reasons.
 
Awesome, thanks for trying it out! Been loving your posts on other RU RMTs so was really looking forward to your response here.

Thanks as well for the more general thoughts on sticky web in general -- I've thought about doing a similar writeup and injected some of that into my RMT, but have a bit of impostor syndrome there since I've not really accomplished much of note, so honestly glad to have someone beat me to it.

I've run mismagius in the blocker slot before but dropped her when donphan got more common. For some reason the idea of investing in defense to live through knock+shard (which I assume is what you meant, since EQ doesn't even hit her) didn't resonate with me. I might stick with dhelmise a bit longer though as I've actually been really enjoying some of the tricks he can pull. Trapping a sun/TR/screens setter is pretty questionable given they usually run some move that can get around that, but the few times it's worked have felt glorious.

Slurpuff's probably the only webs setter I've never really tried (I've played webs teams in PU, and ran a monotype Z-splash team at one point which required the use of leavanny), and I love the idea of combining the two sets for the massive threat and surprise factor. I'll definitely give that a whirl.

I really tried to make this work properly (for a while) but consider this a failed attempt on my part I guess.
Yeah, like I said, finding setup opportunites is not easy. I see you ended the second game by just abusing the vanilluxe storm, and that's how a lot of my wins end as well (usually with webs up though), either because Tsareena died due to a miss or unexpected set or just never got the chance to set up. I did notice you're switching in Tsareena a bit earlier on in the match, which I usually avoid for obvious reasons. That said, I've toyed recently with moving rocks onto aerodactyl and putting scarf gardevoir in Nidoqueen's slot. That change hurts in a lot of ways but opens up some good options. Moonblast still OHKOs swellow and noivern and dents buzz, wisp can lead to safer setup opportunities, and healing wish is great on a team with this many things going on -- it lets you either use Tsareena earlier like you were doing in the replays, bring in a counter a second time, or just plain act as another way to block removal. It's also nice to finally have a psychic resist, for what that's worth lol.

I feel like the next step would be making up for the flaw you mentioned with Slurpuff. Is there a decent anti-lead that can be run for dealing with both Metagross and Nidoqueen? Problem is most of the best counters for both I can think of off the top of my head are a tier or two up. It's kind of frustrating how many good answers there would be to both at the same time in higher tiers, but not really in RU. Only decent one I could think of was Magmortar with Psychium Z on Psychic to one shot Nidoqueen and fire STAB for Metagross. It's got a slightly higher speed than Nidoqueen so it should work, except against scarf sets which would wreck it. Not a perfect solution. Unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot else I could come up with in the time I had.
Hadn't thought much on anti-leads, so this is a good line of thought to go down. The mention of psychium Z magmortar (which isn't an option for this team since z-splash is obviously mandatory) makes me think of delphox as a potential option. Life orb will OHKO both with the appropriate STAB (unboosted flamethrower gets 50% to OHKO shuca rocks metagross, unboosted psychic gets 68% to kill nidoqueen, so you could even just roll the dice with the cheesy power herb solar beam set). Will explore the options here.

Hoopa can almost certainly accomplish the same, but he'd have to be scarf to do it on turn 1.

EDIT: gonna try out modest scarf phox. Above calcs were for timid; modest is enough to guarantee the kills. Unfortunately doesn't quite kill noivern or swellow without rocks, and dazzling gleam only does ~50% to mandibuzz, but seems enough to be worth trying out.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I tried out mismag and just found myself with no answer to opposing webs teams due to no removal/deterrent. More conventional webs teams can just send out galvantula and more or less win. That's fixable in other slots, obviously, but I think it's currently giving up too much to put a different spinner on this team. Swapping out dhelmise for mismag would've left me with no chance in games like

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-966689106

but with dhelmise my chances of winning that battle were great (though honestly the flinch could've ruined me, and did a few games earlier). In that game his role as a spinblocker was hardly necessary given how much damage I got on blastoise beforehand; he was just useful as a spinner that could survive long enough to get the webs off my side. Planning for enemy webs teams seems like the time to merit a bulkier and less conventional spinner. That said he'd do pretty poorly against mismag so maybe surprise is the only thing ultimately on my side there.

RE: anti-leads, trying to slot choice band bruxish there instead of delphox. He's not as good at killing metagross and not as fast as scarf phox, but he just has more overall utility for the team, notably psychic fang's ability to destroy screens which tend to wreck everything for me, and a second priority option. Still miss the fast taunt and flyer killing potential of aerodactyl, but he's working out reasonably well so far. And before you ask, as amusing as dazzling might be on this team alongside queenly majesty, I'm definitely going for strong jaw.

Still not sold on removing aerodactyl though as despite maintaining the fire-type check status, both options hurt my swellow/noivern/buzz matchups and/or the team flexibility due to forcing a choice item.
 
Last edited:

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Is there a decent anti-lead that can be run for dealing with both Metagross and Nidoqueen?
I suppose Shuca Berry on Nidoqueen could be a simple fix for this? This obviously relies on the opponent staying in and losing Life Orb appears quite a big deal at first but having some insurance versus the Ground type attacks will allow for some more reckless playing with it and it's not like Nidoqueen was intended to be the main damage dealer on this team anyway.

Yeah, I tried out mismag and just found myself with no answer to opposing webs teams due to no removal/deterrent. More conventional webs teams can just send out galvantula and more or less win.
In this (rare) matchup I think you have three options: 1) Lead Slurpuff to prompt the opponent to Thunder right away as you Play Rough for a 2HKO. This relies on not getting paralysed and hitting two Play Rough which sounds awful but is actually still in your favour (0.7*0.9*0.9=0.56, not including the Thunder miss chance) and yields you webs for your own purposes the turn after. 2) Lead Aerodactyl and Taunt to prevent webs from going up in the first few turns. However, the Galvantula is likely to Thunder if it carries a Focus Sash or switch out to find an opportunity to set up webs at a later point during the game. 3) Accept that webs are likely to go up, lead Vanilluxe and Blizzard to avoid any damage from Galvantula. Personally, I think as long as you can match the web I think you'll be fine in that match-up.

Glad to see a discussion unfold about this. Keep 'em coming! :blobthumbsup:
 
Hmm, those options sound okay. Given how often I've missed 2 stone edges in a row on non-sash galv (I swear life orb doubles as a brightpowder) 56% chance of success doesn't sound fantastic, but it certainly could be worse. I'm less optimistic about my matchup with webs on both sides given how much easier it is for honch to go on a rampage when vanilluxe and tsareena no longer outspeed him. Luxe and aero can both survive +1 sucker punch and hit back pretty well given how much recoil he's likely to have taken, but both of those calcs don't work anymore with rocks factored in or if he got to +2 using Z-taunt or Z-mirror-move. I guess though if I'm carrying this much threat/taunt and let them get both hazards up I only have myself to blame.

Speaking of honch webs and vaguely on-topic in the sense of Z-moves on Tsareena:

Tsareena (F) @ Fairium Z
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Power Whip
- U-Turn
- Play Rough

252+ Atk Tsareena Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 76+ Def Mandibuzz: 320-378 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


It's a little absurd to me that adamant + rocks are required, but otherwise this feels like the lure to end all lures -- Tsareena on the opposite side of the field with rocks / webs on your side looks like a total green light for mandibuzz to switch in and defog (bar u-turn, I suppose), but he'll fold to the Z-move after rocks either on the switch, or (assuming nothing faster than the toxtaunt set) after being outsped. That could open the door quite nicely for the likes of honch to clean up the rest, and Tsareena can otherwise perform her usual role without much trouble, especially considering if you do pair her with honch she could u-turn into the pursuit trap to avoid a potential spinblock. Haven't had a chance to use it in practice because of course the moment you start using a lure the mon that you were seeing in 80% of ladder games suddenly disappears, but I think as a single set it's worth mentioning.

EDIT: watching some random replays I see that I'm not original at all in this find. I swear I came to the same conclusion independently, or at least forgot having seen it before :)
 
Last edited:
Finally got a nice replay where tsareena was able to strut her stuff with this exact team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-969953504

Honestly webs wasn't even necessary here since it was full stall, but you get the idea. Shows off how hard this build hits -- once I had the mandibuzz worn down it went fully according to plan (could've chipped registeel a bit more to avoid the HJK into protect problem, but it worked out) and was pretty much a free win.

I think this highlights more or less how this team maps out in practice -- Tsareena wins against more passive / bulkier teams or teams that rely too heavily on priority; vanilluxe just rampages through most others. I've come to start accepting that in many games Tsareena will just be a switchin to the likes of accelerock to keep vanilluxe alive for free, and maybe break a mon or two.

Beyond some minor tweaks for preferences (I still think dhelmise vs mismag is arguable, primarily because the removal option is interesting), I don't know that this team will get much better than it is.

To close this out, here's a montage of older saved replays with this archetype. Lots of luck and low ladder silliness, but fun nonetheless:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-964310309
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-911583451
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-904762665
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-837984318
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-837870917
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-837851954
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-812007308
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-790859186
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-779121401
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-778354595
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-778345504
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-778239475
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-760090479
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-750261030

I have some more (going back 1.5 years now) but that's probably too many already.

As a bonus since I'll probably never use it again, I'll post my WP drifblim's finest hour:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-855216728
 
ehh, this is kind of necrobumping, so sorry for that, but screw it:

after winning my first ever random chat tournament game after a handful of tries (on the last day of gen 7, no less), I won another and ended up in the finals vs. Ajna of all people.

Decided to go for broke and pull out the latest version of this team to try and get the win with the dumb team I'd built all of gen 7:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-1009914737

I feel kinda bad about this actually; Ajna called out pretty much everything I did and ended up losing to a couple of stacked gimmicks. Even then the only reason I won was because the mandibuzz was offensive.

Still, it shows what the star of the show is capable of.

To further justify this necrobump, here's the one further change I've made since this thread:
aerodactyl -> lycanroc

Lycanroc-Dusk @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Fire Fang
- Stone Edge

This came from the recognition of a few things:
1. I was losing too often to the likes of cloyster due to ice shard being my only priority.
2. most of the mons I was using aerodactyl to remove weren't showing up early enough to be removed before I wanted to set up.
3. common sets of these mons are setup fodder for accelerock lycanroc, who (unlike aero) acts as a win condition.

So now rather than trying to remove the likes of swellow/noivern, I just set up, kill a mon, wait for the offensive counter, sack, then bring in lycanroc.

If swellow did anything other than u-turn, or noivern draco meteored or is locked into hurricane (or flamethrower or something else lycanroc resists), lycanroc survives the hit, sets up, and then priority kills the following turn. Hopefully tsareena or someone else removed or weakened any remaining mon who would've stopped lycanroc, and he finishes the job.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top