Yesterday: A Heracross discussion thread

Titled, "Yesterday", because it seems like only yesterday that Heracross was one of the most feared Pokemon in the fourth generation of Pokemon. Also a Beatle's Song! Despite losing his former glory in OU, the beetle still has plenty of uses in Ubers, and that is what I want to share, discuss, and explore with you today.
 
Heracross's "best" set in ubers may simply be the Choice Scarf set, which packs enough Speed to outspeed Mewtwo and anything slower than him (which includes Timid Shaymin-s, Timid Darkrai, etc.), while packing enough punch to kill many top Uber threats.


 
Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 56 HP/216 Atk/232 Spd/4 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Night Slash
- Stone Edge / Sleep Talk / Pursuit
 
The Speed EVs give Heracross 396 Speed, enough to outspeed Timid, 252 Spe Mewtwo, and enough attack to ... well, look for yourself:
 
Close Combat to 120 HP/0 Def Quiet Dialga (standard mixed):
94%-112%
This is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
 
Megahorn to 40 HP/0 Def Timid Mewtwo (Standard):
123%-145%
This is always a guaranteed OHKO.
 
Now, this obviously isn't much surprised, 120 BP, super-effective attacks should be killing their intended targets. But how about threats such as Kyogre, Groudon, and Palkia?
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to a 4 HP/0 Def Hasty Palkia (standard):
71%-83%
This is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock and two layers of Spikes.
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to 4 HP/0 Def Timid Kyogre (standard):
65%-78%
This is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock and three full layers of Spikes.
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to 112 HP/8 Def Adamant Groudon (standard):
41%-49%
This is never a guaranteed OHKO. This is only a Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes.
 
Now truth be told, this wouldn't be that impressive, as most Pokemon can hit hard enough to deal this kind of damage. But things get interesting when you take Heracross's unique ability into the mix.
 
GUTS:
 
Guts is a very good ability on Choice Scarf Heracross, especially if Heracross can successfully predict a Burn or can get in on one layer of Toxic Spikes. Guts boosts your attack x1.5, should you be inflicted by status.
 
Using X-Act's Uber statistics, 4.8% of Pokemon used Toxic, 3.06% used Toxic Spikes, and Will-o-Wisp was used 1.64% of the time. But don't let these statistics discourage you. Collectively, 9.5% of Pokemon in ubers would have used one of these attacks. And it gets better. Forretress, an Uber Pokemon use 25% of the time (courtesy of Doug's uber detailed uber statistics), used Toxic Spikes on 68.5% of its movesets.
 
Even though bringing in Heracross on Toxic Spikes is easy, its hard to plan when they will use any other sort of status. Lucky for you, you can build your team around Heracross getting statused, simply by adding in Pokemon sure to draw those attacks. This is the concept of luring at its finest. An example would be Lugia, a Pokemon that is used to wall a plethora of attacks and Pokemon in ubers. Unfortunately for Lugia though, Rest is rarely used and if it becomes Toxiced, Lugia's usefulness drops down significantly. But with Heracross, you can easily lure in Toxic that you suspect and receive your boost.
 
Now why is Guts so useful for Scarf Heracross? I bring your attention back to the damage calcs, this time with Guts included:
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to a 4 HP/0 Def Hasty Palkia (standard):
106%-125%
This is always a guaranteed OHKO.
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to a 4 HP/0 Def Timid Kyogre (standard):
98%-115%
This is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
 
Megahorn/Close Combat to a 112 HP/8 Def Adamant Groudon (standard):
62%-72%
This is never a guaranteed OHKO, but there is a chance of OHKO with Stealth Rock and three full layers of Spikes.
 
This increase in power allows Heracross to easily kill almost every Pokemon in Ubers, provided he is given necessary support. Now let's see how well Heracross fares against some of the premiere Uber walls.
 
Close Combat to a 248 HP/0 Def Careful Forretress (standard):
65-76%
This is never a guaranteed OHKO, but there is an extreme chance of OHKO with Stealth Rock and three full layers of Spikes.
 
Megahorn to 252 HP/52 Def Bold Lugia (standard):
51%-60%
This is never a guaranteed OHKO. There is a 10% chance Lugia can survive a 2HKO with Leftovers. This is a guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Night Slash to 4 HP/0 Def Giratina-o:
54%-64%
Guaranteed 2HKO.

The third move of doom (and Night Slash???)
 
Megahorn and Close Combat are obviously the two best moves of the set, and will likely be the only moves used the entire game. However, you still have two more slots to fill. Oh dear!
 
Stone Edge, Pursuit, and Sleep Talk all have different uses for the set. Stone Edge provides a guaranteed 2HKO on Lugia, as long as Guts are active, regardless of Stealth Rock, and can OHKO Rayquaza with Stone Edge, provided he has Stealth Rock support. Pursuit can be useful for picking off a pesky Blissey, Wobbuffet, or other defensive Pokemon that will never want to switch into Heracross. The obvious downside of this is the next Pokemon sent out will likely be able to set up easily on Heracross. Sleep Talk is great if you find yourself mispredicting and being slept by Darkrai. It will activate Guts and give Heracross one shot of killing something with Megahorn or Close Combat.
 
In the last slot, I generally use Night Slash, as it will be the best attack to hit Rotom-A and Giratina with, especially with the latter being so common.
 
While using this set, a friend told me of an "idea", that could take advantage of the opponent with some great prediction, while still allowing Heracross to handle the same amount of threats. The idea is to use the Choice Scarf set, but with Rest and Sleep Talk in the last slots. When Heracross is ever getting too weak, maybe from you mispredicting or just having to take hits, Rest can give you a full healing, as well as activating Guts. This means that you do have to switch out. The good thing is that you can easily come back in and will be guaranteed two straight turns of using Sleep Talk, hopefully picking Close Combat or Megahorn. Having shown Rest and Sleep Talk, you may be able to fake an actual rest-stalk set, which could create more effectiveness.
 
Sample Team:
 
Deoxys-e @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 136 Atk/252 Spd/120 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Stealth Rock
- Signal Beam
- Extremespeed
- Fire Punch / Spikes
---
Giratina-o @ Platinum Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 60 Atk/196 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Shadow Sneak
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Outrage
---
Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 56 HP/216 Atk/232 Spd/4 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Night Slash
- Sleep Talk
---
Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/56 Def/204 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Reflect
---
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 216 Atk/252 Spd/40 SAtk
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Extremespeed
- Dragon Dance
- Overheat
- Outrage
---
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP/8 Atk/252 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Light Screen
- Rapid Spin
- Payback
---
 
This team has a little of everything in it, and it's goal is to get Heracross out there and smashing through things. The basic premise is to get Stealth Rock and Spikes out as early as possible, which is precisely what Forretress and Deoxys-e will do. I prefer Fire Punch on Deoxys-e, simply because I can catch Scizor, who can really hurt Heracross, off guard. However, if you do opt for Spikes, Forretress can use Light Screen in place of Spikes. With Light Screen from Forretress and Reflect from Lugia, you should constantly have a screen or two up, which can really help Heracross and Rayquaza take hits to sweep.
 
I like the priority here on Rayquaza and Giratina-o, as it can ensure things are either weakened enough for Heracross, or that they can finish weakened things off.
 
One of the major problems for the team can be a Darkrai. Sleep Talk is on Heracross to make sure I still have a chance to beat it, even if put to sleep.
 
WHAT TO DISCUSS:

1.) Does Scarf Heracross have room for your team? Have I convinced you to try him out?
2.) What other Heracross sets could be viable in Ubers? There have been talk of MoPCross, pure SD Sweeper, and even Choice Band Heracross being effective. Be sure to share these with us so we can discuss.
3.) What are your general opinions on Heracross in ubers?
4.) How do you best defend against Heracross?
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
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Needs more calculations vs. Giratina.

It lets us know whether Night Slash or Toxic might be more of an inconvenience for it.
 
Close Combat to 120 HP/0 Def Quiet Dialga (standard mixed):
94%-112%
This is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
I'm pretty sure that Dialga is resistant to Stealth Rock, so the OHKO is not always guaranteed.

Edit: Nevermind, for some reason I thought SR resists only take 4% damage.
 
I have added a Guts Night Slash calculation against Giratina-o. I'll explain real quick what I think about it:

If you plan on luring in status (which is really the point of using Heracross in ubers anyway), then you will be able to 2HKO giratina-o, but you will not be 2hkoing regular giratina, unless perhaps 3 layers of spikes and stealth rock. That being said, regular Giratina will probably always be using Rest anyway, so Toxic would be worthless, unless you want to hit Lugia and Wobbuffet without predicting. The problem with that is guts boosted megahorn is 2hkoing lugia and ohkoing wobb.

so toxic could be an option, but night slash 2hkoing 4 hp giratina-o with guts activated is very appealing to me.
 
I have added a Guts Night Slash calculation against Giratina-o. I'll explain real quick what I think about it:

If you plan on luring in status (which is really the point of using Heracross in ubers anyway), then you will be able to 2HKO giratina-o, but you will not be 2hkoing regular giratina, unless perhaps 3 layers of spikes and stealth rock. That being said, regular Giratina will probably always be using Rest anyway, so Toxic would be worthless, unless you want to hit Lugia and Wobbuffet without predicting. The problem with that is guts boosted megahorn is 2hkoing both.

so toxic could be an option, but night slash 2hkoing 4 hp giratina-o with guts activated is very appealing to me.
On top of this, Night Slash has a high critical hit ratio, so you should still come out on top if Giratina-A tries to PP stall you with Rest + Pressure.
 
I really like Heracross in Ubers, just make you sure you have a GOOD
Rayquaza check, Heracross will rarely let you down(only when Megahorn misses) and fits very well in teams with Deo-e lead and Giratina-o.
 
Heracross is really to me, the ideal Darkrai counter, it's not extremely fragile, and come in the most predicted move of Dark void. Sleep talk also has a great chance of ohkoing Darkrai, thanks to it's 2 stab moves. Also, from my experiences using Heracross, Lugia seems to be it's best counter, thanks to instant recovery unlike Giratina-A, who has to rely on rest.
 
If you want to make it a really awesome Darkrai counter, you could just run Sleep Talk / Close Combat / Megahorn for the guaranteed OHKO with Sleep Talk.

I don't have much ubers experience with Heracross, but I have seen it do some damage, and it's good that something can take advantage of fucking Toxic Spikes. One thing you may want to include are defensive calcs for Heracross. It shouldn't be taking hits, but it's worth noting that it's actually a really bulky fucker. I haven't run calcs, but I'm pretty sure it's not OHKOed by Palkia's Spacial Rend, Giratina-O's +1 Dragon Pulse, or some other special attacks. I also remember it not being OHKOed by Scarfchomp, though I might have been using Dragon Claw and not Outrage.
 
The good thing is that you can easily come back in and will be guaranteed two straight turns of using Sleep Talk, hopefully picking Close Combat or Megahorn.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I remember correctly a choiced sleep talk can only be used once, because the second time the pokemon will struggle
 
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if I remember correctly a choiced sleep talk can only be used once, because the second time the pokemon will struggle
This is true. However, kd24 meant that if you use Rest, you know that you are going to be asleep for two turns, whereas if you get slept by Dark Void, you don't know if you will wake up in one turn or sleep for 4, which may lead to wasted turns.
 
If you want to make it a really awesome Darkrai counter, you could just run Sleep Talk / Close Combat / Megahorn for the guaranteed OHKO with Sleep Talk.
Like tripe mentioned before, absorbing the dark void with heracross is set up fodder for Rayquaza, no Darkrai is staying against an asleep Heracross
 
Not really. Guts Close Combat (or Megahorn) does 48-52% to min/min Rayquaza. It will get a turn to set up, but not before losing 75% of its health (with stealth rocks). A 25% Rayquaza is hardly sweeping anything, especially when at best it'll get 3 hits with Life Orb.

And Pokemon generally switch out of the Pokemon that counters them, because that's what a counter does.
 
I used a Endure/Reversal Heracross once. If you avoid priority attacks/scarf pokes, this can KO almost single poke after a SD. With Guts, even Giratina takes a huge damage from Megahorn while Reversal is too powerful.
IIRC Lugia is OHKOed by Guts Megahorn after a SD even without the rocks, and Groudon is OHKOed by Reversal.
 
It has Vital Spirit, so Dark Void is useless, but it is 2hko'd by Focus Blast. Heracross has more uses than Primeape, as it can OHKO Mewtwo and Lati@s, absorb status, and is bulkier. Not that I would ever use either of them, but I think Heracross outclasses Primeape.
 
How? It can't switch into Focus Blast or Dark Void.
Scarf Primeape is probably the best Darkrai check. But Primeape still risks taking Focus Blast or Ice Beam (well, some people use ScarfRai), which with Life Orb almost kills or just 2OHKoes with Scarf, as it's faster, so it's quite shaky.
 

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think you guys are going to need to be more specific on which Ape you're referring to from now on. It's easy to think that ScarfApe is referring to Infernape (even though it's referring to Primeape in this case), since there's still an Infernape thread up on the first page.
 
I think you guys are going to need to be more specific on which Ape you're referring to from now on. It's easy to think that ScarfApe is referring to Infernape (even though it's referring to Primeape in this case), since there's still an Infernape thread up on the first page.
Neither is really common, so I don't think it can be easily confused.
 
Scarf Heracross is still a good Darkrai check if you have something else to take sleep. Since he resists the Dark/Fighting combo he won't get killed if Darkrai decides to attack first. Rest/Sleep Talk seems dubious since using a choiced Rest or Sleep Talk gives a free switch to your opponent, which is especially bad in Ubers. It's a shame, though, since sleep plus Guts sounds really tempting at first.
 

Darkmalice

Level 3
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I'm currently testing Choice Band Heracross in Ubers. Theorymon invited me to post my set on IRC with some calcs.

Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Atk / 24 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk

I haven’t gotten around to a definite EV spread, but the EVs serve a purpose. This set aims to be a definite Darkrai counter, easily shrugging off Dark Pulse and Focus Blast. 232 Atk enables Sleep Talk to always OHKO Darkrai ignoring accuracy, even if it selects Stone Edge and Stealth Rock isn’t on the field. If Darkrai has Sash or Substitute, you’ll have to switch out after using Sleep Talk, but with Sleep Clause activated, you should have little problems finishing Darkrai off.


With a Choice Band, Heracross is capable of OHKOing a large portion of the metagame, especially if it gets a Guts boost:

Close Combat vs min/min Hasty Palkia – 107.5% - 126.5% – guaranteed OHKO

Close Combat vs min/min Timid Dialga – 155.4% - 183.6% – guaranteed OHKO

Close Combat vs min/min Timid Kyogre – 99.1% - 116.7% – very likely OHKO without SR, guaranteed with SR

Close Combat vs max/min Modest Kyogre – 83.4% - 98.3% – likely OHKO with SR

Megahorn vs 28 HP / 228 Def Calm Wobbuffet – 132.2% - 156.1% – guaranteed OHKO

Close Combat vs 4 HP / min Garchomp – 89.9% - 106.4% – likely OHKO with SR

Guts boosted Megahorn vs 86 HP / min Giratina-O (CM Stall Breaker) – 50.2% - 59.1% – guaranteed 2HKO

Megahorn vs 252 HP / 64 Def Bold Lugia – 56.5% - 66.6%

Guts boosted Megahorn vs 252 HP / 64 Def Bold Lugia – 84.4% - 99.5% – guaranteed OHKO with SR

Close Combat vs 252 HP / 32 Def Adamant/Careful Groudon (Supporting Groudon) – 55.9% - 66.1%

Guts boosted Close Combat vs 252 HP / 32 Def Supporting Groudon – 83.9% - 98.8%

Close Combat vs 112 HP / 8 Def Adamant Groudon (Rock Polish) – 62.1% - 73.4%

Guts boosted Close Combat vs 112 HP / 8 Def Adamant Groudon (Rock Polish) – 93.5% - 110% – guaranteed OHKO with SR


Heracross’ bulk enables Heracross to survive an attack and retaliate with an OHKO, often to the surprise of your opponent. Here are some calculations to show Heracross’ durability.

Timid Palkia/Dialga Draco Meteor – 71.2% - 84.1%

Timid Kyogre/Palkia Rain boosted Surf – 72% - 85.2%

+1 Mewtwo 63.7% - 75.3% Thunder – 62.1% - 73.4%

+1 216 SpA Modest Giratina-O Dragon Pulse - 76.9% - 90.7% – a likely 2HKO with SR on the field

LO Darkrai Dark Pulse – 36.5% - 43.1%

Scarf Skymin Seed Flare – 31.6% - 37.4%

56 Atk CB Scizor U-turn – 28.3% - 33.5%

56 Atk CB Scizor Bullet Punch – 48.9% - 57.7%

156 Atk Adamant Groudon (Supporting Groudon) Dragon Claw – 34.9% - 41.2%

60 Atk Impish Groudon Dragon Claw – 29.7% - 35.2%

LO 252 Atk Adamant Groudon Stone Edge – 60.2% - 70.9%

Jolly Garchomp Outrage – 68.4% - 80.8%


Heracross gets 2HKOed by a large portion of the metagame. The idea is to switch in Heracross after your opponent nabs a kill and respond accordingly. Or if the opportunity arises, switch in Heracross on a status attack (especially Dark Void). If your opponent sets up Toxic Spikes, even better! Heracross now has a strong chance of taking down your opponent’s Groudon (and less than 25% of Groudon use Fire Punch). The element of surprise works well with Heracross, as many people do not expect Heracross to survive these attacks, only to find their attacker gets OHKOed.

Stealth Rock support is recommended with Heracross, as it guarantees some of its OHKOs. Spikes helps too, especially against Groudon. Kyogre is recommended, as the rain will enable Heracross to survive every Fire-type attack save Modest Specs Heatran STAB Fire Blast. You’ll also need a counter to Giratina-A, as it will wall Heracross any day.
Just a quick note about switching into Darkrai; if Heracross does not switch into Dark Void, prediction skills help. If Darkrai uses Dark Void, use Sleep Talk. If Darkrai uses any other attack or swap out, use Close Combat (or Megahorn). You don’t want to be locked into Sleep Talk when you’re awake and give Darkrai a free opportunity to set up. But admittedly, it’s not too bad being locked into a non-Sleep Talk attack when asleep, as Darkrai can only 3HKO Heracross at best, and that’s with a Life Orb. You can just wait till Heracross wakes up.


No conclusion because this is still a set in progress. But the raw power behind Heracross’ CB boosted attacks, especially with a Guts boost that is surprisingly easy to obtain with all the status moves everywhere, coupled with the fact that Heracross is hard to OHKO, is prodigious and should not be underestimated.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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It might be a good idea to run enough SPE on that Heracross to outrun 8 SPE base 90s. This way support Groudon/Dialga/whatever are outrun and dealt severe damage before they can hurt you.
 

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