Done What to do with Crucibelle in SwSh

[MrDollSteak]

Hello everyone, MrDollSteak here, sorry to spring a thread somewhat out of the blue, not sure if this is the correct process or not, but I thought I'd give it a go to start some discussion about everyone's favourite former-Mega.

As everyone is surely aware by now, Mega Pokemon were removed as part of Sword and Shield, and subsequently Crucibelle has lost access to its Mega Evolution. We have also just finished wrapping up Crucibelle's updates for Gen 8. As a few members pointed out Crucibelle's recent nerf in regards to access to Head Smash and Low Kick occurred purely because of the presence of its Mega and asked whether Head Smash in particular could be re-added as part of the updates thread. The UL, in my opinion, correctly stated that that thread should not be the place for such a discussion, as Head Smash was not a move with new distribution as a TR or TM or as a move widely added to learn sets.

With this context out of the way, I wanted to pose the question now; how should we handle Crucibelle in Sword and Shield following the loss of its Mega? In my mind there are three options that we could reasonably and feasibly take, as a specific one-off case to consider Crucibelle's unique place as a former Mega Pokemon, though there can of course be more raised in discussion.

Firstly, we could simply do nothing. While I personally would like to see Crucibelle made a bit more viable following this rather substantial loss, there is no specific need to do anything, and there isn't a problem with having an unranked or C tier CAP (Hi Voodoom).

Secondly, we could reinstate Head Smash. As noted above, Head Smash's removal was purely as a result of Mega Crucibelle's abuse of the move with Magic Guard and it's higher attack stat. This could restore Crucibelle's original Scarf Set and possibly give it a small place in the metagame, without the centralising effect that the move had with its Mega. This seems to me, a reasonable option to restore pre-nerf Crucibelle without the risk of its Mega.

Thirdly, and this would be by far the most complex approach, we could try and salvage Mega Crucibelle as a separate form change. There are a few ways we could attempt to this, but in my mind, as far as implementation goes, the easiest and most balanced approach would be simulating a transformation in the style of the Griseous Orb. The Crucibellite (should it keep its name) would when given to Crucibelle transform it into its Mega Pokemon. Instead of being known as "Mega Crucibelle" it could have a new name for the form such as Crucibelle Unleashed, Crucibelle Freed or something else to that effect that acknowledges the fact it is out of its pot. It would ultimately at that point be functionally the same as Mega Crucibelle from the last generation (save for the transformation itself and Team Preview) by having the stat line, magic guard and resistance to Knock Off. While I know CAP is trying to reduce custom elements, the fact that Mega Crucibelle was designed in the first place, and been such an important and interesting part of CAP since its inception, it strikes me as a shame that it will be completely unusable.

The reason I raise this question now, is that CAP 27 is in the process of beginning, and the other updates wrapping up. This generation transition has posed a lot of challenges so far, and it would I think in some ways be helpful to resolve how Crucibelle will be treated before CAP 27's Threats, Checks and Counters stage in the case there are any relevant changes.

Thanks everyone!

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Crucibelle in general is a super interesting case because although its actual concept was I think using a typing in a different way (don't hold me on that), the Mega Evolution had a much larger effect on how the process actually went and how it was used in the metagame. It's concept was certainly there, but I its identity as a Pokemon is certainly more centralized.

But this is all rambling at this point, as I am still for not really giving Crucibelle anything for a few reasons.

I think it is perfectly natural that we experience CAPs getting tossed out of the meta, as we have all seen from those of Voodoom, Malaconda, and Plasmanta. Arghonaut wasn't super great pre-Gen7 Updates but the addition of Spikes and a meta shift turned it much more in its favor. I see Crucibelle in much the same way: the meta simply shifted out of its favor this time due to the removal of one of its central mechanics. Lucario and Gyarados lost thier megas, so they are worse in some aspects. Gallade and Gardevior lost their mega, so they are no longer UUBL. In short meta changes happen and I do not think it is unreasonable to say from now on generational mechanics may be cut from them. Crucibelle is one of many victims of Mega loss. And we knew this was happening since June.

I also think we should not "compensate" Crucibelle because of its lost Mega, which is a similar approach to Necturna, whom as lost their identity through meta change, most specifically Dexit. CAP as of Gen 7 has taken a fairly hard stance on how we give out buffs, which is that we don't if the move is suggested only for the buff. Gen 8 Updates can give buffs if they fit flavorfully first and foremost and don't break the mon, but priority one should never be buffing a mon. No matter how one spins it, compensation is still absolutely intentional buffing.

But let's talk about the Donphan in the Day Care here: Mega Crucibelle's Gen 7 Nerfing Process.

Now I have neither been on Council nor was ever on Council during the time of its need process. But as a random CAP player, I personally feel that it went too far in regards to Low Kick. Head Smash was pretty clearly the broken element for it, and Low Kick was just an extra nail in the coffin. I don't know how Council felt during its deliberation, but that's my take.

Also I've noticed a small thing. Back when the Nerfing Process happened, I think Mega Crucibelle was more commonly seen as the main mon, thanks to its metagame viability, and Crucibelle was seen as just a crappy base form. Obviously this notion is inverted with removal of megas, but interesting nonetheless.

However, all of what I just said is pretty much just rambling and my actual take regarding the nerf is likely a hot one: We all want compensation for Crucibelle losing its Mega because it is now terrible in the meta, and losing its mega and the nerf prior is just a really good excuse to do so.

Something tells me that if Crucibelle were totally usable in the meta regardless of what happened to it, we would not be having this discussion today. If this were any other mon who was nerfed in gen 7, we would not be having this discussion today, as it is pretty clear cut that those nerfs were made on the Pokemon at the time for the meta at the time. But it just so happens that Crucibelle is bad right now, and Mega Crucibelle was the actual focus of the Nerfing process. Base form was a hapless victim (I'll take my Nobel Prize now)!

I don't really think it matters though. Sure Crucibelle itself was the problem, but Mega Cruci still took all of its moves from the base form, so keeping base the same would not have fixed the problem. And as we all know nerfs are done at that current place in the meta.

I'm sorry if I went a bit off there or I didn't make a coherent point, but I genuinely don't see a strong argument for giving it back Head Smash, let alone a custom form.

 

[cbrevan]

I see no reason to do anything about Crucibelle's nerfs or it's mega forme.

The viability of CAP Pokemon is something I don't believe we need to be proactive about, as in, I don't believe we should be making changes to Pokemon solely for the sake of bolstering or neutering their viability. Our nerfing process works under the assumption that changes are needed for the overall health of the metagame. Our current update process works under the assumption that changes are needed to make our creations more realistic. Neither of these processes create change for the sake of a Pokemon's viability, and I think we should follow suite here. Crucibelle being C in the viability rankings should not mean we suddenly have reason to enact changes to it. If we do, at what point do we draw the line to stop when other CAPs have seen dramatic drops in viability due to generational changes or metagame trends? Do we justify Crucibelle's buffing because we nerfed it in the past? Functionally, whether or not a nerf was enacted by ourselves or Gamefreak makes no difference.

Regarding Crucibelle's mega forme, I think we should leave Mega Crucibelle alone as well. The only reason to treat Mega Crucibelle differently from any of the other megas that were lost is because it's a CAP Pokemon, which would force us to break from realism in order to pander heavily to our project. Furthermore, there is an excellent reason to keep Mega Crucibelle unusable, in that it's statline and power level were clearly not made for the game as it stands now. 640 BST, Magic Guard, and a statline that would be outrageous today should already be enough to make us pause.

Maybe Mega Crucibelle is fine in the current metagame and we won't know until we try it. Except to do so carries a lot of oppurtunity cost in the time we spend on it, the optics it gives us, and of course the overall impact on the metagame it may have. With all that in mind, I think the clearest solution is to treat the megas the same as we treat every other mega and leave it in Gen 7.

 

[Bughouse]

Full agreement to leave the mega in the past. Creating an alternate kind of form that transforms at the user’s discretion does not exist anywhere in the game and all other form changes that do exist are triggered by hard coded abilities and/or specific events.

I could see a case being made to otherwise buffing it by returning it closer to its original state prior to nerfs to address the mega form. But I don’t fundamentally think every CAP should be expected to be good in all iterations of the CAP meta. There just isn’t room for that. So if Crucibelle is bad without its mega, so be it. Regular Crucibelle was never good to begin with...