Victim of the Week: Week 12, Lileep (See Post #109)

[Rowan]

Yeah pretty much nothing is safe from LO Mixkrow with a set of Brave Bird/sucker punch/heatwave/hpgrass. On the bright side, it kills itself extremely quickly and it's quite frail. If you have stealth rocks up chances are it won't last long with Brave Bird Recoil, Life Orb damage and entry hazards. It can easily be revenged by faster scarfers especially those that resist sucker punch such as Mienfoo and Magnemite, or those who can bypass sucker punch such as Ice Shard Snover who deals 63% damage.

Eviolite sets can be handled a lot more easily, especially subroost. Tirtouga and Omanyte can both set up on SubRoost easily without really fearing anything. Magnemite takes little damage from Brave Bird or Sucker Punch. Chinchou can wall it pretty easily. Porygon traces prankster making it easy to wall it and much easier to switch in.

Jacob Ninja, Pawniard also hard counters that set as with defiant featherdance does nothing.

 

[Shouting]

It is worth noting that Aron actually isn't 2HKO'd by Life Orb Murkrow with the correct spread. It is even better in Sandstorm.

Speaking of Sandstorm, most rock types are good answers to it when sandstorm is up. Nosepass can take HP Grass, Archen gets a boost too (but evio archen really doesn't do much in my experience.) Even Tirtouga can take an HP Grass in Sandstorm.

 

[Delver]

To clarify; the point of this thread is to find and share checks and counters of the listed pokemon, not discuss the pokemon itself. I'd much rather hear about your magnemite and chinchou sets than about how good Murkrow is at its job.

This is regarding the first few responses to Murkrow.


How well does Pawniard handle the Subroost set? It obviously has trouble with the Mix set thanks to Heatwave, but I think it has a reasonable chance to do well against other sets. When dealing with these top teir threats, the first step should ALWAYS be to identify its set. This applies doubly for Murkrow. For that reason I think it's ok to deal with the sets separately. Obviously, encompassing all the sets with a single mon is ideal, but when that isnt we want to cover the most we can.

 

[Good_Luck!]

Status for MixKrow and Shellder for Subroost, those are all the things I need to counter this monster.

Paralysis on Offensive variants pretty much deals with Murkrow as its main asset is its Speed. As I said on the viability thread, Nosepass has been my most reliable counter, particularly enjoying Sandstorm to tank HP Grass. Lack of recovery is a bitch, though.

The only set I can't stand is the Annoyer one. Sub/TWave/Roost/Confuse Ray|Swagger has tempted me to ragequit and cost me too many matches. Even the most dedicated counter can easily fall to this hax as Murkrow can invest on Bulk thanks to Prankster.

Speaking of which; Prankster Roost can be troublesome as it makes Murkrow weak to Fighting moves. Most players won't let a Fighting 'mon (or a Psychic|Ghost with HP Fighting) stay on Murkrow but a well timed Drain Punch or HJK can be devastating on Murkrow.

Obviously, encompassing all the sets with a single mon is ideal, but when that isnt we want to cover the most we can.

Shellder is a good 'mon for me, just like Dwebble; unboosted Icicle Spear can KO Murkrow even behind a sub. Why unboosted? To avoid the OBVIOUS Sucker Punch after a Shell Smash. Even if it doesn't KO (let's say Murkrow is roosting), Shellder has enough Def to live a Sucker Punch and go for the kill.

pretty much nothing is safe from LO Mixkrow with a set of Brave Bird/sucker punch/heatwave/hpgrass.

I've found HP Grass variants to be very rare. Most players use Roost for the very same reason Cork said: it dies quickly. Without HP Grass pretty much every Rock-type is a hard counter.

 

[Chieliee]

It is worth noting that Aron actually isn't 2HKO'd by Life Orb Murkrow with the correct spread. It is even better in Sandstorm.

Speaking of Sandstorm, most rock types are good answers to it when sandstorm is up. Nosepass can take HP Grass, Archen gets a boost too (but evio archen really doesn't do much in my experience.) Even Tirtouga can take an HP Grass in Sandstorm.

I'm pretty sure your calcs for Aron and especially Tirtouga are off. Nosepass in sand could actually be a good counter to krow, but it's a one-time use and that's pretty much all it's good for.

IMO the best thing to do is slap a scarf on your magnemite, hope they don't predict the switch-in and use heat wave, and then go for tbolt on the next turn, when they heat wave. (if they're good players they will recognize the lack of eviolie though, but w/e)

 

[Shouting]

I'm pretty sure your calcs for Aron and especially Tirtouga are off. Nosepass in sand could actually be a good counter to krow, but it's a one-time use and that's pretty much all it's good for.

IMO the best thing to do is slap a scarf on your magnemite, hope they don't predict the switch-in and use heat wave, and then go for tbolt on the next turn, when they heat wave. (if they're good players they will recognize the lack of eviolie though, but w/e)

Actually this is true.

80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 196 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Aron: 8-10 (33.33 - 41.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 196 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Aron in sand: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Even Tirtouga survives:
80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 244 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga in sand: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Nosepass has a verrryyyy small chance to be 2HKO'd in Sandstrom (like less than 1%) and it has pain split so it can keep healthy. Scarf Magnemite is a good check but as a whole it's not really the best revenge killer out there.

 

[Delver]

I'm interested in what you use to spread your paralysis to Mixkrow, Good_luck. The majority of the things i think of are things I would never dream of switching into a Mixkrow (Cottonee, Foongus, etc). Maybe a Murkrow of your own?

 

[JacobNinja]

Actually this is true.

80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 196 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Aron: 8-10 (33.33 - 41.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 196 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Aron in sand: 6-8 (25 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Even Tirtouga survives:
80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 244 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga in sand: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Nosepass has a verrryyyy small chance to be 2HKO'd in Sandstrom (like less than 1%) and it has pain split so it can keep healthy. Scarf Magnemite is a good check but as a whole it's not really the best revenge killer out there.

Most tirtuogas are sturdy, not solid rock

 

[iss]

Defensive Tirtouga (his spread indicates it) runs Solid Rock.

 

[JacobNinja]

Can that tirtuoga even kill murkrow with slide/blast and aqua jet?

 

[Good_Luck!]

I'm interested in what you use to spread your paralysis to Mixkrow, Good_luck. The majority of the things i think of are things I would never dream of switching into a Mixkrow (Cottonee, Foongus, etc). Maybe a Murkrow of your own?

Thunder Wave Nosepass is good to paralize Murkrow, even if it's behind a sub: Power Gem will break it without the shaky accuracy of physical Rock moves. That's the only thing I've found that can switch into Murkrow and Paralyze it.

However, you don't switch into Murkrow, Murkrow switches into you. Prankster Cottonee can Paralyze on the switch, Thunder Wave Porygon can catch it off-guard (why would Murkrow switch into Pory? Idk, but I've seen it), Thunder Wave Slowpoke fears nothing from Murkrow if it lacks HP Grass, you can stall Sucker Punch and Brave Bird damage can be Slacked Off. Sub Variants are hard, though.

Cottonee is a risky one, if Stun Spore misses (god knows it happens), you can try one more time: if Murkrow subs, Stun Spore misses, if Murkrow attacks, it may hit and you'll end with a dead Cottonee and an opposing paralyzed Murkrow who's way easier to check, high risk, high reward move. But if Stun Spore misses again... you better pray the recoil of BB took down Murkrow with Cottonee.

I haven't tried Murkrwo as a check to itself. Would it work?

 

[Elevator Music]

You'd probably be better off using Vullaby if you wanted to use Murkrow to check Murkrow. Also, Nosepass now gets Rock Blast in BW2, so that might be better to run than Power Gem (going mixed isn't that bad with paralysis support anyways).

I'm probably the only person that really really loves Eviolite Archen, but it's SO GOOD at stopping LO Krow and the standard SubRoost set it's not even funny. The first set here can shrug off everything bar LO Dark Pulse from Murkrow, easily stalling out Sucker Punch with Roost (and Stealth Rock). I've been considering running EQ in the last slot to hit a lot of common switchins to Archen.

Has anybody else had any experiences with Archen? It's far from a perfect Pokemon, but it's literally the only Flying-resist in LC that has reliable recovery, and I've had some good success with it.

 

[Delver]

I tried running a Double Bird with archen and Murkrow a while ago, but I tihnk i messed the team up. archen is one of those mons I've always wanted to use but never could do it well; though it seems like it's the closest thing we have to a check to both common Murkrow sets

 

[prem]

lol em i love archen im the one who made the set with you.

honestly the easiest way to bear murkrow is just scarf something with a sucker punch resist, or just make it faster somehow. murkrow isnt taking a hit thats neutral cause it just cant, and anything that can get aroudn sucker punch is fun. hell use scarf scraggy it wins games. other than that just bulk it out and attack. most things that have eviolite can take at least one hit, so you have to sacc something but its murkrow so its worth it.

 

[Electrolyte]

Yes, I agree with EM that Archen is a good offensive Krow counter. The best thing Krow can use to hit you is HP Grass, which is relatively weak. The only thing Archen really has to watch out for is parafusion Krow- although much less common, a Thunder Wave quickly shuts Archen down, and Archen doesn't appreciate Toxic either.

Offensive Tirtouga is a good Murkrow check; it easily sponges BBird and SPunch. However, HP Grass hits it like a truck, so if hazards / hail is up you can only revenge kill. However, Murkrows without HP Grass can be set up on easily by Tirt and eventually OHKOd by Stone Edge. Aqua Jet can even let you bypass SPunch.

SSmash Dwebble is a great answer to Murkrow. RBlast beats Subs, and you can SSmash to kill defensive Krow. It can sponge a BBird, but it's a 2HKO, so again it can only be used to revenge kill.

 

[Delver]

Snover
60 HP / 62Atk / 50 Def / 62SpA / 60 SDef / 40 Spe
Abilities: Snow Warning / Not Snow Warning (Soundproof)
​

Firstly lemme apologize for being so very late on this. Things have been fairly hectic for me, but thats not an excuse, these posts take like 10 minutes if I try really hard. So Sorry. Anyways, lets continue Victims with Snover. Snover is usually seen as the most reliable sand counter in the teir, as it removes the cherished Sand Drilbur and Sandshrew (and other abusers) nearly require to function properly. Additionally, its typing allows it to hit the vast majority of Sand team threats with STAB super effectively. In fact Snover is such a reliable check to sand teams, many of them had to begin dedicating slots just to remove it. Snover's uses isnt limited just to countering sand though, as it hits a 14 speed, which with scarf allows it to out speed the entire of the unboosted meta making it a decent revenge killer. So how do you deal with MiniObama?

 

[Delver]

This is a quick double post bump to allow people to know this thread is running agin. I had a bit of a hiatus but its up. Also if any of the higher ups can help me fix the OP to what it was originally that'd be hot. I seriously messed it up hard :/ and have been asking for the better half of this week without any responses. Week 6's update will occur NEXT Saturday (as in the 23rd). Mods can feel free to delete this if they see it fit.

 

[Electrolyte]

Scarf Snover is the bane of many teams; its Ice / Grass coverage hit most of the tier's most used pokemon at least neutrally (most supereffectively) Its massive speed and ability to spam Blizzard without consequence makes it a very reckless yet effective revenge killer / hole puncher. Its Blizzard is powerful enough to 2HKO most non eviolite pokemon in the tier, and even some evio pokemon if it hits them super effectively. That makes it extremely hard to switch into unless you have a steel type like Bronzor, Pawniard, or Magnemite- all of whom are great checks / counters to Snover. Bronzor can take any hit except HP Fire quite easily, and return with a Flash Cannon or status. However, due to the fact that bronzor lacks recovery, it can be easily worn down, so players should try to get hazards up to wear down Snover before Bronzor gets taken down. Pawniard is a great offensive check; it can take a Blizzard / Giga Drain quite well and OHKO with Iron Head or Sucker Punch. It also has to fear HP Fire though, which hits it significantly harder than it hits Bronzor. Magnemite is also a great counter to Snover; it can take almost any hit and HP Fire does relatively little as well. Magnemite can OHKO with Flash Cannon or even its own HP Fire in return.

Speaking of hazards, getting SR up fast is a great way to subdue Snovers, as they often play a hit-and-run strategy. SR can also make it easier to revenge kill; for instance Snover can be OHKO'd by Timburr's Mach Punch after SR.

Generally, bulky pokemon that can also hit hard can abuse the fact that Snover is still relatively weak and has a horrible defensive typing. Timburr and Machop can both take two Blizzards and OHKO with the appropriate STAB attack. Misdreavus has a high chance of surviving two Blizzards at full health, and can KO with HP Fighting after SR (making it a shaky check.)

And then there are of course the faster scarfers- Scarfoo can live a Blizzard ~60% of the time and OHKO back with HJK. Choice Scarf Scraggy, while rare, will always live a Blizzard and OHKO with HJK. You can also use prediction to beat Scarf Snover; switch in something that resists a predicted attack and you can force Snover out for another round of hazards (if you wisely put them up.) Murkrow is great at doing this; it can come in on Giga Drain and KO Snover.

 

[Rowan]

One pokemon that Electrolyte didn't mention is Larvesta. It takes very little from anything Snover packs, except the odd person running HP Rock and can U-turn for the OHKO or to get momentum from the switch in. Except Magnemite, this is probably my favourite counter, except for the fact you are forced to run Drilbur or Staryu for rapid spin.

edit: only just noticed Larvesta is PotW aswell

 

[Delver]

I have to say that Magnemite is one of the most important counters. It's role in countering snover is two fold in that it is the easiest fit onto sand teams - maintaining good bulk and offensive prowess whiles simultaneously avoiding sand damage. I know for a while people were running defensive Houndours to deal with snover on their sand teams. Aside from dealing with snover it also acted as a misdreavus check - another mon sand teams have a ittle bit of trouble with. Unfortunately it also doubles up on some bad weaknesses, such as ground, rock and water, which is the reason i think it fell out of favor. Combining these mons, I actually really like the idea of pawniard as a check to snover that can also handle misdreavus for teams without a snover. It maintains magnemite's resistance to Snovers stab, as well as Missy's and can hit both with SE STABs. Definitely an intereseting mon i wouldn't have thought of.

 

[Good_Luck!]

Tentacool is the only Water-type who can switch into anything Snover has but it's very unreliable as it HAS to run Sludge Wave to be a significant threat.

Magnemite is just sweet with HP Fire bit I'm seeing a lot more of HP Fire Snover to get rid of those Steel-types.

Houndour is my favorite check as it plays games with Scarf Snover when SR is up as Pursuit will heavuly damage it preventing it from switching more often.

 

[wiitle]

A mon that Snover really struggles with and makes its primary job, eliminating sand, difficult is Munchlax. Munchlax's naturally high special bulk combined with thick fat make it very hard for Snover to take it out. In fact, Snover's Giga Drain only lands a guaranteed 5hko. Munchlax in return can hit back with either Fire Punch or a Pursuit. Coupled with Stealth Rocks and Snover is going to have a very hard time staying alive. Munchlax also doesn't have to worry about HP rock like Larvesta does.

 

[Delver]

I'm really bad at running threads... Week 6! ish.

[

]
Timburr
Guts / Sheer Force / Iron Fist
HP 75 / Atk 80 / Def 55 / SpA 25 / SpD 35 / Spe 35​

Timburr is decidedly one of the most under-rated threats in LC atm. Its lofty base 80 atk stat lets it reach 18 with full investment - thats murkrow level by the way. It also boasts some impressive Physical defense for an offensive mon. Unfortunately its slower than an alcoholic turtle, and its lacking in the special stats (specifically the special bulk). Luckily though, the omnipresent eviolite allows it to put a bandaid on its low special bulk, its aces to STAB'd Mach Punch lets it cricumvent its terrible speed stat to finish off mons that switch into its powerful stabs. Its move pool is no slouch either, having access to things like Drain punch and bulk up to make it incredibly hard to kill without a psychic move, the afore mentioned mach punch gives it access to a powerful priority move, Stone edge and Payback provide it coverage on anything that would switch in to hit it - ie Ghosts and Birds. A well played and supported timburr can easily spell death for the opposing team unless its properly dealt with, so lets deal with it.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Sash Abra works well if it's Sash isn't broken. It can take a Mach Punch and KO with Psychic. You have to play Abra cautiously early game though, because if another mon takes it down to 1 HP, Timburr just kills with Mach Punch.

Tentacool is also an interesting counter. Scald can burn, which helps whittle down Timburr's HP, albeit boosting his attack. It hits on the special side so it is unaffected by Bulk Up. Tentacool possesses Liquid Ooze to keep Timbuur from healing with Drain Punch.

Edit: Shelmet is also amazing at walling Timburr, along with every other Fighting type in the tier (besides Mienfoo with Stone Edge). He can boost his Defense to combat Bulk Up. He can't really do much in return as Bug Buzz is a 9HKO, but he does prevent Timburr from completely running through your team.

 

[Woodchuck]

FOONGUS is a great Timburr response, even if it has Ice Punch you can just put it to sleep and switch out, and Clear Smog foils its attempts to Bulk Up. As for Abra, keep in mind that Psychic doesn't actually OHKO Timburr from full health :|.

240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)