I admit I forgot it has Inner Focus
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource VGC 2019 Viability Rankings [Moon Series Update]
- Thread starter Netherious
- Start date
DeagleBeagle
Banned deucer.
From looking at this tier list it is mostly accurate, but I am afraid it is too based on how mons have been used in previous generations. It doesn't seem to take into relevant changes. For example, Cress is listed as pretty high tier here, even though Cress was mostly good in 2016 because the Primal dichotomy was so common and could Skill Swap. Nowadays Skill Swap is pretty pointless as there is very little Groudon Kyogre dichotomy wars. I have carefully established all my tiers by testing and thinking about relevant changes and how mons have been used in the past rather than simply thinking of their previous tier and copy and pasting into this format. I am not too familiar with Smogon tiers, but I think listing Ho-Oh in the same tier as Dusk-Mane is crazy. My blog lists all of my tiers and they take into account many people's opinions on Showdown (where they are actually battling). http://deaglebeagle.blogspot.com/
I disagree. Cresselia may not need Skill Swap, but it’s probably the most reliable trick room setter in the metagame. It’s almost never OHKOED by anything bar Yveltal, and doesn’t have to worry about Z-Moves currently. A Rank is fine for it.
On your blog, I don’t think saying Koko outclasses Zekrom is true. Zekrom, unlike Koko, can reliably take Advantage of its Gargantuan attack Stat thanks to its high BP moves like Bolt Strike and Dragon Claw, unlike Koko who has Wild Charge and no Physical Fairy STAB move. Teravolt is huge against Lightning Rod, which allows Zekrom to destroy Kyogre through lightning Rod support.
Speaking of Koko, it needs to go to B-Rank. The loss of Z-Moves hurts it, and 95 Base SpAtk is Awful. Things like Kyogre and Ho-Oh which it should be KOING can take a hit and retaliate back. It use comes from Electric Terrain and support options now.
I disagree with koko immensely, it could be that I run thunder with kyogre though. I’ve noticed no lack of power, and I consistently ko all sorts of kyogres and ho-ohs with 252 spA. That base 130 speed has saved me on multiple occasions, just slap a focus sash on it if items and bulk bother you.
Also, Dialga should move up, it’s an anti meta monster right now. Ferrothorn, kyogre, necrozma-dm, cress, tapus, etc. all can’t really touch it, xerneas fears it’s flash cannon, it has trick room, and no defensive stats under 100. It’s also a steel type that doesn’t have an incredibly terrible incineroar matchup, which is pretty valuable right now.
Last edited:
I disagree with Dialga. The number one problem is that it can’t reliably check Xerneas outside of TR, as Xerneas can set up Geomancy, which turns Flash Cannon to a 3HKO. You could run iron head, but that leaves you vulnerable to intimidate. Checking Tapus, Ferrothorn, and Dragon types means running Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, which makes no room for TR it’s best set.
I disagree with 4mss. Protect is useful, but not 100% necessary. I run a set of dragon pulse, flash cannon, flamethrower, and trick room. While dialga is not a complete counter to xerneas, it is useful to discourage a switch, or at least make the enemy think a bit before pulling some shifty geomancy stuff.
Ferrothorn from A to B
Okay I suppose this is a drastic proposal, but I think Ferrothorn is extremely mediocre in this format. While its typing is wonderful, Ferrothorn suffers from a few things. The main one is its lack of utility. In a restricted format, you want to either deal lots of damage, or you want to support the damage dealers. Ferrothorn lacks either trait - its strong matchups against Kyogre and Xerneas are held back by its mediocre offensive typing and Incineroar being on virtually every team, giving players multiple ways to ignore its presence on the field. Its bulk is also nothing spectacular and Water Spouts and Moonblasts eventually wear it down. Basically, Ferrothorn takes 40% and deals like 20% back (not actual damage numbers, but rough estimates of taking such hits and the opponent responding to it / what it feels like), and offers very little to aid its high damaging partners.
It's an alright TR deterrent in rain spam but that's probably its best use.
Okay I suppose this is a drastic proposal, but I think Ferrothorn is extremely mediocre in this format. While its typing is wonderful, Ferrothorn suffers from a few things. The main one is its lack of utility. In a restricted format, you want to either deal lots of damage, or you want to support the damage dealers. Ferrothorn lacks either trait - its strong matchups against Kyogre and Xerneas are held back by its mediocre offensive typing and Incineroar being on virtually every team, giving players multiple ways to ignore its presence on the field. Its bulk is also nothing spectacular and Water Spouts and Moonblasts eventually wear it down. Basically, Ferrothorn takes 40% and deals like 20% back (not actual damage numbers, but rough estimates of taking such hits and the opponent responding to it / what it feels like), and offers very little to aid its high damaging partners.
It's an alright TR deterrent in rain spam but that's probably its best use.
Doesn’t Gyro Ball always 2HKO Xerneas with basically no investment and OHKO with 252 Atk investment? That’s a lot more than 20%
Apart from that, I do get what you’re saying. Plus Leech Seed is pretty useless in this meta.
As for the Cresselia debate discussed earlier, I think it’s still viable because of the bulk and typing and lack of Z moves to threaten it. Plus Taunt isn’t that common. I haven’t compared it directly to Necrozma DM and Porygon 2 in testing, but it does have a niche with Ally Switch which is a grossly underestimated move.
Oh in a straight 1v1 Ferrothorn absolutely bodies Xerneas outside of random stuff like HP Fire. WHat I'm trying to get at with those numbers was Ferrothorn in general being easy to respond to, since its coverage is relatively specific so switching into its attacks is easy, and an Intimidate can also put it out of 2HKOing range against Kyogre and Xerneas depending on how bulky they are, allowing them potentially an extra turn to threaten its partner.
I think venusaur should be somewhere in the C rank. Reason being, it can do good work to xerneas, it’s a sludge bomb doing over half of its HP before a geomancy. It is faster than most things in the format, but choice scarf can poteitnally outspeed it. Of course I’m saying this because it needs chlorophyll to do the jobs I stated but I think it deserves more. Although, I do understand that it is very dependent on groudon for drought, and tapu Koko to do good damage to kyogre so you guarantee sun the rest of the match if groudon is still alive.
I’ve had some success with Hydreigon as a Tailwind setter. Yes there’s better Tailwind users like Ho-Oh and Lunala, but Hydreigon doesn’t take up a Legendary slot. It’s also quite bulky and can pack a punch. I equip it with a Focus Sash which guarantees it gets Tailwind up even if it eats a Fairy attack. Then if it survives, I can fire off some powerful coverage moves (like Fire Blast boosted in the Sun for example, or even Surf in the Rain), taking something out before it dies. Dark is also a useful offensive typing with Lunala and Necrozma Dusk Mane everywhere.
I was thinking a C- ranking? Thoughts?
I was thinking a C- ranking? Thoughts?
Great discussion so far! not too many changes to implement this time. I'm not convinced that Cress should move down but Dialga can come up a little. Here's the changes. Feel free to discuss your distaste or approval:
Ferrothorn A --> B
Ho-Oh --> A --> B+
Groudon B+ --> A-
Dialga B --> B+
Mewtwo C+ --> B-
Excadrill C --> C-
Giratina C --> C-
Thundurus C --> C-
Toxicroak C --> B+
Whimsicott C --> C+
Bold is the bigger changes. Feel free to nominate any other ideas you all may have and again, thank you all for your input! It helps immensely.
Ferrothorn A --> B
Ho-Oh --> A --> B+
Groudon B+ --> A-
Dialga B --> B+
Mewtwo C+ --> B-
Excadrill C --> C-
Giratina C --> C-
Thundurus C --> C-
Toxicroak C --> B+
Whimsicott C --> C+
Bold is the bigger changes. Feel free to nominate any other ideas you all may have and again, thank you all for your input! It helps immensely.
first of all, the vr has been out for literally 8 days
secondly, there really hasn't been a "big 6" or completely dominant strategy yet, so the s rank is empty now. even the better strategies like scarf ogre + tsareena have ample counterplay like don + fast mon, grass types (maybe not ferro/kart), bulky tr setters like cress, etc.
there haven't been any major events yet; we're going off ladder stats.
overall, people don't really know what the best things are yet. it's intuitive to look at it like "people just figured out what the best thing is" because strategies get popularized, but really it doesn't happen all at once. the meta settling down is a more gradual process, and in this case, it hasn't happened yet.
personally i wouldn't expect the same xern ogre teams to be showing up for the rest of the four months. there will be adaptations. there will be better strategies. and there might be a mon that rises to s. it probably won't happen overnight, but the meta will get shaken up.
I'm interested in what figures drove the following changes (the rest I think are unremarkable/self-explanatory):
I think Ferrothorn to B is a little on the rash side. Main argument against it is that its pretty passive whilst not providing significant support, and that its easy to switch in an intimidate mon (i.e. Incineroar) and then it becomes dead weight. I think this is looking at the situation the wrong way around.
I agree that Ferrothorn is "good but not great" as like a dedicated Xerneas / Kyogre / Ludicolo / Necrozma-DM / Tapu Lele / Tapu Koko counter on your team. It beats a hell of a lot of top tier Pokemon but if you rely on it so heavily to beat all those things at once, then yes its going to get worn down very quickly. You can say exactly the same thing for top tier pokemon in any previous format - 2018 Landorus-T is a good answer to Metagross, Charizard Y, Kang, opposing Lando-T, Incineroar, some Zapdos, etc etc but if it is your sole answer to all of those things then yes, you are fucked.
Basically people rely too heavily on Ferrothorn at the moment. So many teams I see on ladder are using like Incineroar / TR Necrozma-DM / Kyogre / Ferrothorn and obviously they get absolutely bodied by well-played Kyogre / Ludicolo + partners because Ferrothorn is relied on far too heavily in that set-up to beat everything (also that team doesn't lure and kill Incineroar easily at all). Scald burn and you lose. I don't think this is a criticism of Ferrothorn but a criticism of people splashing it on teams as a substitute for adequately preparing for the top threats. If switching to Ferrothorn turn 1 is your answer to Scarf Kyogre then yeah expect to lose against well-played Incineroar or Scald burns.
Just to give an example of a team where I think Ferrothorn is really effective - I've been using variations of Incineroar / TR Dialga / slow Kyogre / Ferrothorn / 2 fast mons with taunt and shit. Using Dialga over Necrozma-DM as your TR setter for Ferrothorn means you immediately aren't as pressured by powerful water types, and Dialga also has the movepool to chip away at Incineroar (Epower / Aura Sphere depending on team). Ferrothorn's job here isn't really to switch-in on Kyogre and Xerneas (unless its an emergency), but more as a win condition. Loads of teams have just one Pokemon, occasionally 2, that can beat Ferrothorn 1v1 (just look at the entirety of A rank - literally two Pokemon there have objectively good Ferrothorn match-ups). Ferrothorn thrives if you have a team that 1) doesn't immediately have to lead Ferrothorn or switch it in not to get pumped by Kyogre and 2) makes Incineroar's life difficult. On these teams you can keep it relatively healthy until late game and it can be v difficult to deal with
Tl;dr
- Ferro is excellent as a secondary Steel / secondary ogre switch-in on the team, don't rely on it to beat everything at once or you'll lose.
- Have a game-plan - if Kyogre is your only way of breaking Incineroar then yes, you'll lose to well-played Incineroar.
Just build better Ferrothorn teams. Can't believe we're seriously debating whether a Pokemon that beats well over half of A rank 1v1 is better than Toxicroak. Just don't expect to bring it against Xerneas + Kyogre + Ludicolo + Tapu Koko and expect to 4-0 with lead Ferro, this is GS cup lol
I agree that Ferrothorn is "good but not great" as like a dedicated Xerneas / Kyogre / Ludicolo / Necrozma-DM / Tapu Lele / Tapu Koko counter on your team. It beats a hell of a lot of top tier Pokemon but if you rely on it so heavily to beat all those things at once, then yes its going to get worn down very quickly. You can say exactly the same thing for top tier pokemon in any previous format - 2018 Landorus-T is a good answer to Metagross, Charizard Y, Kang, opposing Lando-T, Incineroar, some Zapdos, etc etc but if it is your sole answer to all of those things then yes, you are fucked.
Basically people rely too heavily on Ferrothorn at the moment. So many teams I see on ladder are using like Incineroar / TR Necrozma-DM / Kyogre / Ferrothorn and obviously they get absolutely bodied by well-played Kyogre / Ludicolo + partners because Ferrothorn is relied on far too heavily in that set-up to beat everything (also that team doesn't lure and kill Incineroar easily at all). Scald burn and you lose. I don't think this is a criticism of Ferrothorn but a criticism of people splashing it on teams as a substitute for adequately preparing for the top threats. If switching to Ferrothorn turn 1 is your answer to Scarf Kyogre then yeah expect to lose against well-played Incineroar or Scald burns.
Just to give an example of a team where I think Ferrothorn is really effective - I've been using variations of Incineroar / TR Dialga / slow Kyogre / Ferrothorn / 2 fast mons with taunt and shit. Using Dialga over Necrozma-DM as your TR setter for Ferrothorn means you immediately aren't as pressured by powerful water types, and Dialga also has the movepool to chip away at Incineroar (Epower / Aura Sphere depending on team). Ferrothorn's job here isn't really to switch-in on Kyogre and Xerneas (unless its an emergency), but more as a win condition. Loads of teams have just one Pokemon, occasionally 2, that can beat Ferrothorn 1v1 (just look at the entirety of A rank - literally two Pokemon there have objectively good Ferrothorn match-ups). Ferrothorn thrives if you have a team that 1) doesn't immediately have to lead Ferrothorn or switch it in not to get pumped by Kyogre and 2) makes Incineroar's life difficult. On these teams you can keep it relatively healthy until late game and it can be v difficult to deal with
Tl;dr
- Ferro is excellent as a secondary Steel / secondary ogre switch-in on the team, don't rely on it to beat everything at once or you'll lose.
- Have a game-plan - if Kyogre is your only way of breaking Incineroar then yes, you'll lose to well-played Incineroar.
Just build better Ferrothorn teams. Can't believe we're seriously debating whether a Pokemon that beats well over half of A rank 1v1 is better than Toxicroak. Just don't expect to bring it against Xerneas + Kyogre + Ludicolo + Tapu Koko and expect to 4-0 with lead Ferro, this is GS cup lol
Now that you say it, heatran actually looks really usable. It has a niche over incineroar in it’s godly fairy and ferrothorn matchup as well as it’s immunity to intimidate, better speed, and flash fire. Then again it doesn’t get knock off, fake out, or intimidate.
Not sure if it's actually bad, but rather Incineroar offers more because of Knock Off, Fake Out, or Intimidate as per RBY. Given those it's still very useful against Kyogre teams, where as Heatran is kinda deadweight in rain. Incineroar also has a better match-up against most Ubers in general - Necrozma-DM, Lunala, Solgaleo (blocks Heat Wave with Wide Guard), Yveltal, and even against Ubers they fair poorly against like Groudon thanks to Intimidate + Fake Out. Heatran only seems better against Xerneas and Ho-Oh, but Heatran ain't doing anything back to Ho-Oh without Ancient Power whilst Incineroar at least has Intimidate and Fake Out once again.
Against Ferrothorn, both Heatran and Incineroar do very well against it. Incineroar is questionably better because of Intimidate, not so much for itself by teammates like letting your Kyogre and Xerneas survive Power Whip / Gyro Ball.
Also whilst Heatran is a better Xern check, it isn't KOing it, particularly since Xern has Geomancy to turn Flash Cannon into a 3HKO. It needs Roar to reliably check Xerneas. It can get the Roar off much more easily than Incineroar who is OHKOed by +2 Moonblast, but at least Incineroar can play 50/50s with Fake Out and Roar.
tl;dr Heatran is better against Xern and that's its only main benefit over Incineroar, which is probably not enough to justify its use.
Definitely not a top tier pokemon as it stands, but has a couple niches. It got a bit of use with Red Card back in 2016, being that its one of only a tiny tiny tiny proportion of Pokemon that can switch in on Xerneas almost completely safely, and force it out.
In theory, Lefties + Sub Heatran could be just about viable, but it'd need a very specific team around it and even then it'd probably not be worth it. A lot of Kyogre teams would probably struggle to break Heatran if they lost Kyogre early game (especially if they have like Ferro, Incineroar, Xerneas, Lele, Necrozma-DM, Solgaleo etc as partners) but its obviously very very difficult to consistently get rid of the best Pokemon in the format. Wouldn't be overly surprised to see Heatran place well at some tournaments this season but at least in my opinion, I don't think now is the right time for it.
Thanks for the replies. I’m not actually comparing Heatran to Incineroar because I was thinking of running both...(Xerneas scares me). But I’m not sure Heatran brings enough to the team apart from being a Xerneas switch in. And also a Tapu Lele switch in.
My team is currently:
Kyogre Choice Scarf
Araquanid
Incineroar
Necrozma DM (with trick room)
Tsareena
Heatran
My team is currently:
Kyogre Choice Scarf
Araquanid
Incineroar
Necrozma DM (with trick room)
Tsareena
Heatran
Ferrothorn's roles are checking common threats, most notably Kyogre + Ludicolo and Xerneas, providing a late-game win-con if you can out its threats. It should be used with Kyogre to check Incineroar, and being a TR-deterrant. It should be used with Kyogre since that makes it difficult to OHKO Ferrothorn, particularly alongside Intimidate.
This is the Ferrothorn set I like, with enough Atk to OHKO 4 HP / 4 Def Kyogre and Xerneas:
Ferrothorn @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Atk / 28 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Atk / 28 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
In response to your point about Intimidate putting it outside of 2HKO range, Xerneas and Kyogre need to be very bulky to avoid a 2HKO after Intimidate:
224 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (135 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def / 0 Spe Modest Xerneas: 150-176 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In terms of bulk:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Ferrothorn: 93-109 (51.3 - 60.2%)-- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 69-81 (38.1 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In practice it's very difficult to wear it down with resisted hits thanks to the Wiki berry. (Note whilst +2 Xern 2HKOes, you should not be placing yourself in a scenario where Ferrothorn is forced to take two boosted Moonblasts.)
Leech Seed I find is useful. It gives a win-con against certain teams, since many teams only have Incineroar as a counter and one other check that isn't an Uber, including many teams with 2 of the 3 most common Ubers (Kyogre, Xern, Nec-DM). Removing Incineroar can seal the game by with Ferrothorn and Leech Seed, with Wiki Berry helping if it needs to take much damage in the meanwhile. There's many Pokemon it can set-up on. In the A ranks this includes Necrozma-DM, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Cresselia, Yveltal without an item boost, and Lunala depending on its set (needs Focus Blast or an item boost).
I think it should move up to B+ or A-. The main reason I'm afraid to suggest higher is:
- it's somewhat match-up dependent. It fairs well against teams that have Ubers that don't threaten it, which is many teams, but is somewhat deadweight against those that do have one (Groudon and Ho-Oh being the main offenders).
- Incineroar is that common. Games can come down to does Incineroar or Ferrothorn fall first. But Incineroar tends to contribute more than Ferrothorn when either are alive in those games.
Which somewhat relates to the point about Ferrothorn not contributing much when Incineroar is around. Much of the reason relates to the fact that the Pokemon it hits hard are either weak to its STABs or frail like Koko.
- it loses its notable OHKOes after Intimidate. Though it can still 2HKO, that may not be enough to finish the job. In large part because Xerneas teams often have ample support for Xern.
- in contrasts with Amoonguss, who at least can use Rage Powder to do something in bad-match-ups whilst sharing many of Ferrothorn's roles, and is generally more reliable in the face of Incineroar.
I would have said easy A rank at the very start of the metagame, A- more recently. Today I'm seeing more Groudon teams than before, so i am leaning more towards B+.
Mostly testing and viewing others results with these mons. Ho-Oh is good but not A material. an increase in Groudon use has made it harder for Ho-Oh to stick around without taking a rock slide. Granted it can burn Groudon, it is being cycled out. Still a good anti meta mon but not A material.
Toxicroak has been an amazing check to Kyogre and counter to Ludicolo and really Kyogre centric teams in general. Toxicroak has many favorable matchups and has a great role in this current meta. Usage has been rising and success rate is also proving itself quickly. It is most definitely slept on.
Mewtwo usage has been rising and i think B- is a good fit for it. This was more of a personal observation of others using it. It has a great movepool and is very offensive. Great revenge killer but overall still is easily answered by mons such as DM Necrozma, Incineroar, and Lunala(this is a massive counter to Mewtwo)
I think B+ is a good call. Ferrothorn is always good at the beginning of the year but it fizzles out once people realize it can't just be slapped on any team thanks to typing. It requires specific matchups and specific conditions. When those conditions are met it's an amazing win condition but for the most part it can be beat pretty handily. As a side note, I absolutely love catching Ferrothorn on the Groudon switch in with HP fire. That is very satisfying.
Anyways:
Ferrothorn B --> B+