Gen 1 Venomoth (NU) [DONE]

[Sabelette]

[OVERVIEW]
Venomoth is the fastest and most dangerous sleeper in NU. It can quickly remove one foe from play with Sleep Powder, which also forces the opponent to switch into Stun Spore, generating a massive early advantage. Venomoth single-handedly prevents early-game usage of slower Pokemon, as critical threats like Blastoise and Clefable cannot afford to be put to sleep. Venomoth can function as a lead, but it more often serves to punish opponents for over-utilizing slower Pokemon before Sleep Clause takes effect. Its Speed tier also allows it to trade hits with Nidoking or Mr. Mime after it lands its status moves, and while its Psychic is not particularly strong, it can still dent foes heavily with a critical hit or Special drop.

Venomoth's biggest weakness is its sheer lack of offense—it has no STAB options and relies heavily on Special drops to deal passable damage, so it struggles to break through paralyzed foes—which it cannot put to sleep—and especially flounders against Fire-types. Double-Edge helps to cover Mr. Mime, but it deals just a bit less damage than needed to truly give Venomoth a chance one-on-one.Venomoth's mediocre typing and bulk limit it defensively, as the tier's various Fire-types, Mr. Mime, and Fearow all outspeed or Speed tie it and force it out; Golem's Rock Slide is also a major threat. However, the sheer power of sleep and paralysis ensure a strong niche for Venomoth.

[SET]
name: Double Powder
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Stun Spore
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Double-Edge

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Venomoth's main use is to land sleep, then fish for paralysis as the opponent inevitably switches out, since keeping a slower Pokemon in to try to wake up achieves nothing. Stun Spore helps to keep out dangerous threats like Charizard, Moltres, and Fearow, usually forcing the foe to switch in Clefable or Mr. Mime after Sleep Powder lands, accepting paralysis. Psychic is Venomoth's best attack against most foes, scoring a 3HKO on Nidoking and opposing Venomoth, and it threatens repeated Special drops against Water-types and other switch-ins. Double-Edge is primarily for Mr. Mime, either to fight it directly after landing paralysis, or to punish an already-paralyzed Mr. Mime switching in to block sleep. Double-Edge deals about as much damage as Psychic against most switch-ins, though, so it can also be used as a midground option. As an alternative to Double-Edge, Mega Drain nearly 2HKOes both Golem and Kabutops, only needing slight chip damage to guarantee it. However, it is useless versus everything else.

Venomoth can act as a lead, matching up well versus any slower lead and having decent odds to put Mr. Mime to sleep, but is forced out by Charizard or Ninetales due to the risk of a critical hit or Sleep Powder miss. In most games, it will instead switch in after a few turns to take advantage of a slower foe like Blastoise. Once in, it lands sleep and follows up with Stun Spore until something is paralyzed; if there is a preexisting paralyzed foe, Venomoth may opt to simply attack in case said foe switches in, returning later to land sleep. After landing sleep and paralysis, Venomoth can either stay in and trade hits until it drops or switch out after paralyzing the foe. Trading hits is advisable if the opponent uses Clefable to absorb Stun Spore, as Venomoth can often weaken it severely with Psychic before going down. Venomoth can also be saved to fight Rock-types with Mega Drain, to sacrifice to sleep later, or to prevent the opponent from ever sacrificing their slept Pokemon—this would let Venomoth land a second sleep. Venomoth pairs well with allies that bait in Water-types, as these are its easiest entry point; for example, leading Charizard or Ninetales often forces Blastoise in, as does using Golem early. Slower allies such as Kingler and Golem particularly appreciate Venomoth's paralysis support, as does Nidoking. Mega Drain Venomoth also works well with allies that normally falter in front of Rock-types, such as Moltres and Ninetales.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Hyper Beam can be used to finish off Mr. Mime at the cost of either Psychic’s coverage or the ability to combat a healthy Mr. Mime. In particular, Mr. Mime always falls to Hyper Beam after two Seismic Tosses, whereas Double-Edge has a mere 23% chance to KO here. Thus, Hyper Beam is an option for insurance on teams leading Mr. Mime. Hyper Beam also deals more damage than Psychic to most foes, allowing Venomoth to sometimes secure a surprise KO on Clefable, Blastoise, or even Charizard after wearing them down.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Fire-types**: Venomoth is outsped and 2HKOed by Charizard and Ninetales, both of which also have a high chance to critically hit it. Moltres only Speed ties Venomoth, but its nuclear Fire Blast OHKOes Venomoth, which deals piddling amounts of damage back. All Fire-types are also effective sleep blockers when paralyzed, forcing Venomoth to slowly wear them down before it can land sleep.

**Mr. Mime**: While Mr. Mime fears sleep, it 2HKOes Venomoth and has a high critical hit chance, giving it multiple paths to victory. Paralyzed Mr. Mime blocks sleep moderately effectively, as Double-Edge is only a 4HKO.

**Fearow**: Fearow is a rare sight, but it outspeeds and 2HKOes Venomoth, just like the Fire-types. It is significantly easier to wear down with Psychic, but it can potentially set up Agility in front of Venomoth and deal heavy damage as it switches out.

**Exeggcute**: Once Sleep Clause is in effect, Exeggcute easily stops Venomoth. It takes very little damage from Venomoth's attacks and does not mind paralysis, retaliating with Psychic for a 30% likely 2HKO. Exeggcute can easily fish for sleep or paralysis against Venomoth or switch-ins as well.

**Golem**: Golem's Rock Slide deals upward of 70% to Venomoth, and Body Slam followed by Rock Slide has a high chance to KO, making it risky for Venomoth to switch in. Mega Drain Venomoth can deal heavy damage to Golem, but it still loses one-on-one unless Golem has been chipped. Golem can also use Explosion to even up a losing matchup.

[CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/sabelette.583793/
Previous version by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/487308/
Quality checked by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/may.236353/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/pac.520967/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/phoopes.96315/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/juoean.486979/
Grammar checked by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/dc.449990/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/adeleine.517429/

 

[Sabelette]

Going to make this a full and write from scratch since Moth is a top mon in the metagame and needs it. Will update title when ready.

 

[Sabelette]

Updated, ready for QC

 

[phoopes]

You're the expert here so minor nitpicks incoming.

Venomoth's biggest weakness is its sheer lack of offense—it has no STAB options and relies heavily on Special drops to deal passable damage, so it struggles to break through paralyzed Fire-types.

I honestly don't run into the scenario of Venomoth vs. paralyzed Fires very often, so I think it'd be helpful to give different examples for what Psychic does less-than-ideal damage too, like Clefable or Blastoise (even if neither of them threaten Moth in return as much as the Fires). This is a "maybe add" instead of a "replace" comment though.

Alternatively, Mega Drain nearly 2HKOes both Golem and Kabutops, only needing slight chip to guarantee it, but is useless versus everything else.

Tbh this is the reason why I'm on the fence about including Mega Drain as a slashed option. Like I lean towards it going on the set but it's close, I could see it being relegated to an other option. I really think of Mega Drain as a matchup fish more than a good option but like the above comment, up to you with what you do with this feedback.

Also in Checks and Counters I'd include Golem, because of Rock Slide and (IMO) Mega Drain being a less useful option than Double Edge.

QC 1/2

 

[Sabelette]

Implemented!

 

[juoean]

looks good, all comments are minor and optional
~ re the parad fire types sentence discussed above, i think how u had it originally was fine, parad fires sleep blocking venomoth is obviously the most notable situation, as well as parad mr mime but mime takes quite a bit more from dedge so it is quite a bit worse at sleep blocking veno. but since almost anything paralyzed can sleep block venomoth, making it more general is fine too. personally id either keep the original wording, or just "it struggles to break through most paralyzed pokemon." (idk if u want to clarify the context of sleep blocking further, personally it felt clear enough but if phoopes was confused abt what u meant / why veno would need to break through parad fires, then maybe its worth specifying that struggling to break paralyzed mons means that venomoth is easily sleep blocked.)
or if u want to stick with mentioning several examples then id at least add mime, even if mime isnt the best sleep blocker its one of the most common mons to get paralyzed early game (at least rn).

~ imo keep mega drain in oo, no dedge means that mime sleep blocks u forever which is pretty bad, dropping psychic or stun spore is arguably less bad but id think oo is appropriate anyway. mega drain and hyper beam seem p similar viability levels to me if anything hyper beam > drain? idk.

~ dedge does basically equal damage to psychic vs charizard and clefable, if eg u want to cover both them and mime, but the special drop and lack of recoil obv makes psy preferable. eg the extra damage from recoil could leave u in raticate range afterward, whereas otherwise ud be able to status an additional opposing mon. idk if any of this is worth specifically discussing, the way u have it now 'psychic is its best option vs most foes... threatening repeated special drops' seems fine, but its something u could add if u wanted to. (basically this is a 'i really have no comments bc its good, but if u rly wanted to add or change something here u could'.)

qc 2/2

 

[Sabelette]

Implemented, GP Team

 

[Adeleine]

Add/Fix Remove Comment
(AC): Add Comma

Hide

[OVERVIEW]
Venomoth is the fastest and most dangerous sleeper in NU. It can quickly remove one foe from play with Sleep Powder then force Powder, which also forces (I imagine? changeable, eg "forces most opponents" if desired) the opponent to switch into Stun Spore, generating a massive early advantage. Venomoth single-handedly prevents early-game usage of slower Pokemon, as critical threats like Blastoise and Clefable cannot afford to be put to sleep. Venomoth can function as a lead, (AC) but it more often serves to punish opponents for over-utilizing (added hyphen) slower Pokemon before Sleep Clause takes effect. Its Speed tier also allows it to trade hits with Nidoking or Mr. Mime after it lands its status moves, and while its Psychic is not particularly strong, it can still dent foes heavily with a critical hit or Special drop.

Venomoth's biggest weakness is its sheer lack of offense—it has no STAB options and relies heavily on Special drops to deal passable damage, so it struggles to break through paralyzed foes—which it cannot put to sleep—and especially flounders against Fire-types. Double-Edge helps to cover Mr. Mime, but it deals just a bit less damage than needed to truly have give Venomoth a chance in this matchup. one-on-one. (optional, if appropriate. reverting and tweaking both fine) Venomoth's mediocre typing and bulk limit it defensively, as the tier's various Fire-types, Mr. Mime, and Fearow all outspeed or Speed tie it and force it out; Golem's Rock Slide is also a major threat. However, the sheer power of sleep and paralysis ensure a strong niche for Venomoth.

[SET]
name: Double Powder
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Stun Spore
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Double-Edge

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Venomoth's main use is to land sleep, (AC) then fish for paralysis as the opponent inevitably switches out—them keeping a slower Pokemon in to try to wake up achieves nothing. Stun Spore helps to keep out dangerous threats like Charizard, Moltres, and Fearow, usually forcing the foe to switch in Clefable or Mr. Mime and accept after Sleep Powder lands, accepting (I imagine?) paralysis. Psychic is Venomoth's best option attack against most foes, scoring a 3HKO on Nidoking and opposing Venomoth and threatening Venomoth, and it threatens repeated Special drops against Water-types and other switch-ins. Double-Edge is primarily for Mr. Mime, either fighting to fight it directly after landing paralysis, (AC) or punishing to punish an already-paralyzed Mr. Mime attempting switching in to block sleep. Double-Edge deals about as much damage as Psychic against most switch-ins, though, so it can also be used as a midground option. As an alternative to (fill in the blank(s)) , Mega Drain nearly 2HKOes both Golem and Kabutops, only needing slight chip damage to guarantee it. However, it is useless versus everything else. (prefer this here instead of oo bc you mention it in below paragraph)

Venomoth can act as a lead, matching up well versus any slower lead and having decent odds to put Mr. Mime to sleep, but is forced out by Charizard or Ninetales due to the risk of a critical hit or Sleep Powder miss. In most games, it will instead switch in after a few turns to take advantage of a slower foe like Blastoise. (perhaps you could elaborate on what cases itd make sense to lead moth, if this is plausible) Once in, it lands sleep and follows up with Stun Spore until something is paralyzed; if there is a preexisting paralyzed foe, it Venomoth may opt to simply attack and punish switches, in case said foe switches in, (optional. you could also keep the deleted text and the addition, removing the comma after "switches") returning later to land sleep. Finally, After landing sleep and paralysis, (I imagine?) Venomoth can either stay in and trade hits until it drops or switch out after paralyzing the foe. Trading hits is advisable if the opponent uses Clefable to absorb Stun Spore, as Venomoth can often weaken it severely with Psychic before going down. Venomoth can also be saved to fight Rock-types with Mega Drain, to sacrifice to sleep later, or to prevent the opponent from ever sacrificing their slept Pokemon for fear of Venomoth landing Pokemon—this would let Venomoth land a second sleep. Venomoth pairs well with allies that bait in Water-types, as these are its easiest entry point; for example, leading Charizard or Ninetales often forces Blastoise in, as does using Golem early. (love this sentence) Slower allies such as Kingler and Golem particularly appreciate Venomoth's paralysis support, as does Nidoking. Mega Drain Venomoth also works well with allies that normally falter in front of Rock-types, such as Moltres and Ninetales.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Mega Drain nearly 2HKOes both Golem and Kabutops, only needing slight chip to guarantee it, but is useless versus everything else. Hyper Beam can be used to finish off Mr. Mime at the cost of either lacking Psychic’s coverage or being unable to handle the ability to combat ('combat' instead bc overview implied mu worse than 'handle' makes me expect) a healthy Mr. Mime. In particular, Mr. Mime is always in range of always falls to (I imagine?) Hyper Beam after two Seismic Tosses, whereas Double-Edge has a mere 23% chance to KO, making this an option on teams leading Mr. Mime to provide some insurance. KO here. Thus, Hyper Beam is an option for insurance on teams leading Mr. Mime, where it may get too hurt early to cover opposing Mr. Mime later. (I imagine this makes sense? changeable) Hyper Beam also deals more damage than Psychic to most foes, allowing Venomoth to sometimes secure a surprise KO on Clefable, Blastoise, or even Charizard after wearing them down.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Fire-types**: Venomoth is outsped and 2HKOed by Charizard and Ninetales, both of which also have a high chance to critically hit it. Moltres only Speed ties Venomoth, but its nuclear Fire Blast OHKOes Venomoth, which deals piddling amounts of damage back. All Fire-types are also effective sleep blockers (removed hyphen) when paralyzed, forcing Venomoth to slowly wear them down before it can land sleep.

**Mr. Mime**: While Mr. Mime fears sleep, it 2HKOes Venomoth and has a high critical hit chance, giving it several multiple (bc youve only given two thus far. just noting this bc the change might look mega arbirary otherwise haha. obv other changes possible if you desire) paths to victory. Paralyzed Mr. Mime blocks sleep moderately effectively, as Double-Edge is only a 4HKO.

**Fearow**: Fearow is a rare sight, but it outspeeds and 2HKOes Venomoth, (AC) just like the Fire-types. It is significantly easier to wear down with Psychic, but it can potentially set up Agility in front of Venomoth and deal heavy damage as it switches out.

**Exeggcute**: Once Sleep Clause is in effect, Exeggcute easily stops Venomoth. It takes very little damage from Venomoth's attacks and does not mind paralysis, retaliating with Psychic for a 30% likely 2HKO. Exeggcute can easily fish for sleep or paralysis against Venomoth or switch-ins as well.

**Golem**: Golem's Rock Slide deals upward of 70% to Venomoth, and Body Slam followed by Rock Slide has a high chance to KO, making it risky for Venomoth to switch in. Mega Drain Venomoth can deal heavy damage to Golem, (AC) but it still loses one-on-one unless Golem has been chipped. Golem can also use Explosion to even up a losing battle. matchup. (I imagine this works?)

[CREDITS]
Written by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/sabelette.583793/
Previous version by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/487308/
Quality checked by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/236353/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/pac.520967/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/phoopes.96315/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/juoean.486979/
Grammar checked by:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/dc.449990/ (and me)

GP Team done