No Suspects
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UU Nomination Thread 8
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
Haters gonna hate. I love you but please get the fuck out of this tier.
Alakazam for Offensive characteristic
Out of all the Alakazam sets, I find these to be the most broken/destructive.
Alakazam@Life Orb
Nature:Modest
Ability:Synchronize
Ev's:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
-Substitute
-Psychic
-Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
Alakazam@Leftovers
Nature:Timid / Modest
Ability:Inner Focus / Synchronize
Ev's:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
-Calm Mind
-Encore
-Psychic
-Signal Beam / Focus Blast
Now, I just want to get this out there that in this meta ALAKAZAM DOESN'T NEED TO RUN TIMID. Risking a Speed tie with Sceptile isn't worth it, and Dugtrio will most likely attempt to Sucker Punch allowing you to Encore/Substitute and defeat it anyway. Ambipom will only attempt to Fake Out, where Synchronize versions (even Timid) will switch while the Inner Focus variant can take the hit and KO. Risking the Speed tie with Scyther/Mismagius isn't great either, but the added power will help you immensely. Now then...
One look at Alakazam's stats will tell you one thing, that it's a glass canon. Alakazam's high Speed and Special Attack is cursed with its low defenses. The problem with Alakazam is that it hits too hard and has just the right amount of coverage to easily sweep through the tier. The most common way of eliminating Alakazam is through priority/revenge killing, WHICH IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO HANDLE IT. On top of most priority users and revenge killers being unable to switch-in (calcs below), Alakazam's utility move in Substitute protects it from priority, and Alakazam can easily attain that Substitute due to its sheer force causing switches (Venusaur, Blaziken, Rotrom, etc..). So essentially, you're basically sacrificing one Pokemon each time Alakazam switches in, JUST TO FORCE IT OUT.
Here are some common users of priority in UU.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Ambipom = 103.4% - 122%
Ambipom can not switch-in whatsoever, and Alakazam can just switch out of Fake Out, which means Alakazam eliminated a Pokemon and is still in the match.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 120/0 Arcanine = 74.4% - 87.5%
Pretty much a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks. Arcanine can NOT switch-in, and can only force out Alakazam with Extremespeed, but he's still in the match.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/0 Azumarill = 64.6% - 76%
Now we're slightly getting somewhere. Azu can switch in ONCE on Zam and force it out, but cannot switch in again after that into ANY ATTACK.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Dugtrio = 100% (embarrassing)
Dugtrio can't switch in, and as it attempts to Sucker Punch, Alakazam will just Substitute/Encore and eliminate it.
Modest LO Psychic vs 4/0 Hitmonlee = 100%
Yeah, Hitmonlee can try to revenge with Sucker Punch but it's most likely not going too.
Modest LO Psychic vs 252/0 Hitmontop = 100%
Can't switch in, Sucker Punch will most likely fail to Zam's utility move, not reliable. It can get some damage in with Bullet Punch though.
Modest LO Psychic vs 72/0 Kabutops = 103.2% - 121.9%
Same with Arcanine/Ambipom
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Nidoking = 100%
Loses to Zam's utility move, not reliable.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 0/4 Scyther = 92.2% - 108.9%
Can't switch-in, will attempt to QA which Zam can take if healthy enough or just switch out of.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Toxicroak = lol
Toxicroak is in the same spot as Hitmonlee/Nidoking
So as you can see, this "common way" of eliminating Alakazam with priority is extremely UNRELIABLE, and forces you to sacrifice a Pokemon JUST TO FORCE IT OUT. Alakazam may also be behind a Substitute or utilize Encore against Sucker Punchers, so these Pokemon are hardly capable of handling Zam. One time "checks" maybe, but we need COUNTERS.
Now I left out a few priority users who fall into a different category. They fare slightly better because they have a Pursuit/Sucker Punch combination.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs 4/0 Absol = 133.6% - 157.2%
So Absol can only switch into Psychic, and will have to play mind games with Pursuit/Sucker Punch. If Alakazam has Encore, it wins. If Alakazam has Subsitute, it will most likely win.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 4/0 Houndoom49.7% - 58.6%
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 4/0 Houndoom 158.9% - 187%
This is probably the best we've seen so far. Even with SR down Houndoom can survive a Signal Beam, but it can't survive a Focus Blast. If Alakazam has Encore, it wins. If Alakazam manages to get a Substitute, it most likely wins.
Spiritomb will be left for the defensive section
So now that we've handled the offensive "checks," lets examine some defensive Pokemon in the tier and how they fare against Alakazam.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/216+ Altaria = 43.5% - 51.7%
+1 Timid Psychic vs. 252/216 Altaria = 45.8% - 54.2%
2HKO'd with SR. Altaria can't even attempt to Roost stall because of Special Defense drops or Encore from the CM set.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 41.8% - 49.3%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 44% - 51.8%
+1 Timid Psychic vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 24.8% - 29.2%
Chansey, the premier special wall in UU, is 2HKO'd by Alakazam's Focus Blast. If you get a lucky miss on the Substitute set, you can force it out, but good luck trying to Softboiled against the Encore set. The Psychic calc was to show that with a bit of hazards, even Signal Beam CM + Encore Zam can defeat Chansey by forcing it to recover and gaining a free Calm Mind as it switches, and will be too powerful for Chansey to take on when it returns.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 78.2% - 92.4%
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 43.7% - 51.8%
Timid +1 Focus Blast vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 81.7% - 96.4%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 45.9% - 54.3%
Clefable is KO'd by a combination of Focus Blast + Psychic. It can't even Wish stall because Focus Blast outdamages the recovery. Softboiled variants are even worse.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/244+ Drapion = 48.3% - 57%
Timid +1 Focus Blast vs. 252/244+ Drapion = 52.3% - 62.2%
2HKO'd all the time. Drapion can handle the Encore set decently, but loses to the Substitute set.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 40/252+ Lanturn = 45.9% - 54.1%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 40/252+ Lanturn = 48.6% - 57.1%
2HKO'd most of the time by rocks. Lanturn can't even paralyze the Substitute set because of well...Sub. It can paralyze the Encore set but after that it's dead.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 248/0 Miltoic = 45.3% - 53.7%
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/56+ Milotic = 39.1% - 46.4%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 248/0 Milotic = 47.6% - 56.5%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 252/56+ Milotic = 41.1% - 48.7%
Milotic, the premier wall of the tier, can't even stand up to Zam. Don't bother switching in your Bold Milotic into Zam, it's 2HKO'd. Calm variants fare a bit better; it can outstall Subzam (unless Zam gets a crit/special fall), but loses to CM + Encore Zam even with Haze.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/156+ Registeel = 61% - 72%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 252/156+ Registeel = 63.7% - 75.3%
Another premier wall in the tier, Registeel, is 2HKO'd by Focus Blast all the time. Substitute can prevent Paralysis, and Alakazam can survive an Iron Head. Registeel fares a bit better against the CM set, especially if it's using Signal Beam, but I wouldn't count Registeel as a counter to Alakazam at all.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 212/252+ Slowking = 42.2% - 50%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 212/252+ Slowking = 44.3% - 52.6%
This is rare anyway, but might as well. Slowking is 2HKO'd some of the time by a LO Signal Beam, so it's a shaky switch-in. It's decent enough to recover stall, I guess. Slowking always loses to the CM set.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 252/0 Spiritomb = 36.8% - 43.4%
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 208/116+ Spiritomb = 31.4% - 36.9%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 252/0 Spiritomb = 38.8% - 46.1%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 208/116+ Spritomb = 32.8% - 38.9%
So we have our first 100% counter here people, granted you're running a Pursuit/Sucker Punch combination and can predict correctly. Spiritomb is the best you're going to get, but even he takes a good chunk of damage.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/252+ Steelix = 102.3% - 120.3%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 252/252+ Steelix = 107.3% - 126.6%
OHKO'd all the time. I learned the hard way trying to use Steelix as a Zam counter a while back.
A long list, yes, but it's needed to show how Alakazam can muscle through the tier by itself. After reviewing the list we can conclude that Alakazam has but one 100% counter, Spiritomb. Pokemon that can check it under certain circumstances are just a few, mainly specially defensive Milotic, and Drapion. I find that countering Alakazam is a daunting prospect and it deserves to be a suspect. I'd like to remind everyone that revenge-killing is NOT an argument in favor of Alakazam staying in UU. Staraptor can be revenge-killed by Ambipom, Swellow, and Mismagius but does that make it any less of a suspect? The answer is NO. Alakazam is basically a special variant of Staraptor, and deserves to be tested because of it's ability to easily sweep a large portion of the tier.
Alakazam for Offensive characteristic
Out of all the Alakazam sets, I find these to be the most broken/destructive.
Alakazam@Life Orb
Nature:Modest
Ability:Synchronize
Ev's:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
-Substitute
-Psychic
-Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
Alakazam@Leftovers
Nature:Timid / Modest
Ability:Inner Focus / Synchronize
Ev's:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
-Calm Mind
-Encore
-Psychic
-Signal Beam / Focus Blast
Now, I just want to get this out there that in this meta ALAKAZAM DOESN'T NEED TO RUN TIMID. Risking a Speed tie with Sceptile isn't worth it, and Dugtrio will most likely attempt to Sucker Punch allowing you to Encore/Substitute and defeat it anyway. Ambipom will only attempt to Fake Out, where Synchronize versions (even Timid) will switch while the Inner Focus variant can take the hit and KO. Risking the Speed tie with Scyther/Mismagius isn't great either, but the added power will help you immensely. Now then...
One look at Alakazam's stats will tell you one thing, that it's a glass canon. Alakazam's high Speed and Special Attack is cursed with its low defenses. The problem with Alakazam is that it hits too hard and has just the right amount of coverage to easily sweep through the tier. The most common way of eliminating Alakazam is through priority/revenge killing, WHICH IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO HANDLE IT. On top of most priority users and revenge killers being unable to switch-in (calcs below), Alakazam's utility move in Substitute protects it from priority, and Alakazam can easily attain that Substitute due to its sheer force causing switches (Venusaur, Blaziken, Rotrom, etc..). So essentially, you're basically sacrificing one Pokemon each time Alakazam switches in, JUST TO FORCE IT OUT.
Here are some common users of priority in UU.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Ambipom = 103.4% - 122%
Ambipom can not switch-in whatsoever, and Alakazam can just switch out of Fake Out, which means Alakazam eliminated a Pokemon and is still in the match.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 120/0 Arcanine = 74.4% - 87.5%
Pretty much a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks. Arcanine can NOT switch-in, and can only force out Alakazam with Extremespeed, but he's still in the match.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/0 Azumarill = 64.6% - 76%
Now we're slightly getting somewhere. Azu can switch in ONCE on Zam and force it out, but cannot switch in again after that into ANY ATTACK.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Dugtrio = 100% (embarrassing)
Dugtrio can't switch in, and as it attempts to Sucker Punch, Alakazam will just Substitute/Encore and eliminate it.
Modest LO Psychic vs 4/0 Hitmonlee = 100%
Yeah, Hitmonlee can try to revenge with Sucker Punch but it's most likely not going too.
Modest LO Psychic vs 252/0 Hitmontop = 100%
Can't switch in, Sucker Punch will most likely fail to Zam's utility move, not reliable. It can get some damage in with Bullet Punch though.
Modest LO Psychic vs 72/0 Kabutops = 103.2% - 121.9%
Same with Arcanine/Ambipom
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Nidoking = 100%
Loses to Zam's utility move, not reliable.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 0/4 Scyther = 92.2% - 108.9%
Can't switch-in, will attempt to QA which Zam can take if healthy enough or just switch out of.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 4/0 Toxicroak = lol
Toxicroak is in the same spot as Hitmonlee/Nidoking
So as you can see, this "common way" of eliminating Alakazam with priority is extremely UNRELIABLE, and forces you to sacrifice a Pokemon JUST TO FORCE IT OUT. Alakazam may also be behind a Substitute or utilize Encore against Sucker Punchers, so these Pokemon are hardly capable of handling Zam. One time "checks" maybe, but we need COUNTERS.
Now I left out a few priority users who fall into a different category. They fare slightly better because they have a Pursuit/Sucker Punch combination.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs 4/0 Absol = 133.6% - 157.2%
So Absol can only switch into Psychic, and will have to play mind games with Pursuit/Sucker Punch. If Alakazam has Encore, it wins. If Alakazam has Subsitute, it will most likely win.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 4/0 Houndoom49.7% - 58.6%
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 4/0 Houndoom 158.9% - 187%
This is probably the best we've seen so far. Even with SR down Houndoom can survive a Signal Beam, but it can't survive a Focus Blast. If Alakazam has Encore, it wins. If Alakazam manages to get a Substitute, it most likely wins.
Spiritomb will be left for the defensive section
So now that we've handled the offensive "checks," lets examine some defensive Pokemon in the tier and how they fare against Alakazam.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/216+ Altaria = 43.5% - 51.7%
+1 Timid Psychic vs. 252/216 Altaria = 45.8% - 54.2%
2HKO'd with SR. Altaria can't even attempt to Roost stall because of Special Defense drops or Encore from the CM set.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 41.8% - 49.3%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 44% - 51.8%
+1 Timid Psychic vs. 0/252+ Chansey = 24.8% - 29.2%
Chansey, the premier special wall in UU, is 2HKO'd by Alakazam's Focus Blast. If you get a lucky miss on the Substitute set, you can force it out, but good luck trying to Softboiled against the Encore set. The Psychic calc was to show that with a bit of hazards, even Signal Beam CM + Encore Zam can defeat Chansey by forcing it to recover and gaining a free Calm Mind as it switches, and will be too powerful for Chansey to take on when it returns.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 78.2% - 92.4%
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 43.7% - 51.8%
Timid +1 Focus Blast vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 81.7% - 96.4%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 252/212+ Clefable = 45.9% - 54.3%
Clefable is KO'd by a combination of Focus Blast + Psychic. It can't even Wish stall because Focus Blast outdamages the recovery. Softboiled variants are even worse.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/244+ Drapion = 48.3% - 57%
Timid +1 Focus Blast vs. 252/244+ Drapion = 52.3% - 62.2%
2HKO'd all the time. Drapion can handle the Encore set decently, but loses to the Substitute set.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 40/252+ Lanturn = 45.9% - 54.1%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 40/252+ Lanturn = 48.6% - 57.1%
2HKO'd most of the time by rocks. Lanturn can't even paralyze the Substitute set because of well...Sub. It can paralyze the Encore set but after that it's dead.
Modest LO Psychic vs. 248/0 Miltoic = 45.3% - 53.7%
Modest LO Psychic vs. 252/56+ Milotic = 39.1% - 46.4%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 248/0 Milotic = 47.6% - 56.5%
Timid +1 Psychic vs. 252/56+ Milotic = 41.1% - 48.7%
Milotic, the premier wall of the tier, can't even stand up to Zam. Don't bother switching in your Bold Milotic into Zam, it's 2HKO'd. Calm variants fare a bit better; it can outstall Subzam (unless Zam gets a crit/special fall), but loses to CM + Encore Zam even with Haze.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/156+ Registeel = 61% - 72%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 252/156+ Registeel = 63.7% - 75.3%
Another premier wall in the tier, Registeel, is 2HKO'd by Focus Blast all the time. Substitute can prevent Paralysis, and Alakazam can survive an Iron Head. Registeel fares a bit better against the CM set, especially if it's using Signal Beam, but I wouldn't count Registeel as a counter to Alakazam at all.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 212/252+ Slowking = 42.2% - 50%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 212/252+ Slowking = 44.3% - 52.6%
This is rare anyway, but might as well. Slowking is 2HKO'd some of the time by a LO Signal Beam, so it's a shaky switch-in. It's decent enough to recover stall, I guess. Slowking always loses to the CM set.
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 252/0 Spiritomb = 36.8% - 43.4%
Modest LO Signal Beam vs. 208/116+ Spiritomb = 31.4% - 36.9%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 252/0 Spiritomb = 38.8% - 46.1%
+1 Timid Signal Beam vs. 208/116+ Spritomb = 32.8% - 38.9%
So we have our first 100% counter here people, granted you're running a Pursuit/Sucker Punch combination and can predict correctly. Spiritomb is the best you're going to get, but even he takes a good chunk of damage.
Modest LO Focus Blast vs. 252/252+ Steelix = 102.3% - 120.3%
+1 Timid Focus Blast vs. 252/252+ Steelix = 107.3% - 126.6%
OHKO'd all the time. I learned the hard way trying to use Steelix as a Zam counter a while back.
A long list, yes, but it's needed to show how Alakazam can muscle through the tier by itself. After reviewing the list we can conclude that Alakazam has but one 100% counter, Spiritomb. Pokemon that can check it under certain circumstances are just a few, mainly specially defensive Milotic, and Drapion. I find that countering Alakazam is a daunting prospect and it deserves to be a suspect. I'd like to remind everyone that revenge-killing is NOT an argument in favor of Alakazam staying in UU. Staraptor can be revenge-killed by Ambipom, Swellow, and Mismagius but does that make it any less of a suspect? The answer is NO. Alakazam is basically a special variant of Staraptor, and deserves to be tested because of it's ability to easily sweep a large portion of the tier.
No Suspects
Please. Don't nominate suspects just to nominate suspects.
The metagame is peaceful. There is no pokemon that doesn't have an array of checks and counters.
Please. Don't nominate suspects just to nominate suspects.
The metagame is peaceful. There is no pokemon that doesn't have an array of checks and counters.
No Suspects
Please! This is as good as it gets people, don't ruin it, we worked way too hard.
Please! This is as good as it gets people, don't ruin it, we worked way too hard.
Nominating Venusaur under the Support Characteristic.
Venusaur is broken for many things, but the set that really sets it apart and breaks it is this:
Venusaur @ Life Orb
252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP | Timid
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
This Venusaur has fantastic bulk, and can afford free switches on the likes of Milotic, Spiritomb, Rotom, Sceptile, and many more top Pokèmon. Once in, you can't predict what it will do. Although I am nominating the special set, the problem with Venusaur is that he has many viable sets. You can swap in Chansey, but you risk eating a boosted or Life Orb Power Whip or Leech Seed. You can being in Rotom to absorb the sleep, but he risks taking a Leaf Storm. The only thing that can switch into every set is possibly Weezing, who can take 40% from a Leaf Storm. Even Registeel can be slept and killed via +2 Earthquake. With this unpredictability, it is virtually guaranteed to net two kills, or a kill and sleep; often it gets more.
Unpredictability alone, however, is not enough to break a Pokèmon. Venusaur's brokeness comes from a combination of great typing (resistances to Grass, Water, Electric, and Fighting), fantastic stats (80/80/100 on the defensive and 83/100 on the offensive), and moderate speed, combined with what is arguably the best movepool in UU. Synthesis means that even if Milotic hits it with a surprise Ice Beam, its fantastic special defense lets him eat it, Synthesis off the damage, and continue to force it out the entire game.
The main pokemon people use to take on Venusaur are Fire-types, for obvious reasons. However, Fire-types have a nasty Stealth Rock weakness. This, combined with the fact that Venusaur is an amazing psuedo spin blocker (fully stops Hitmontop, Blastoise, and Donphan to an extent), means that his main counters are going to be forced to heal after taking 65% or more by a Leaf Storm + SR.
To summarize, Venusaur is broken due to its versatility which stops any one pokemon from fully countering it, its ability to very easily net two kills, counter many pokemon, and sleep another, its stats and typing which afford it many free switches to abuse said versatility, and its ability to exploit its main counters shared weakness by keeping rocks down, sleeping them, or just flat out killing them with an LO Sludge Bomb or boosted Earthquake. Venusaur is BL.
Venusaur is broken for many things, but the set that really sets it apart and breaks it is this:
Venusaur @ Life Orb
252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP | Timid
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder
This Venusaur has fantastic bulk, and can afford free switches on the likes of Milotic, Spiritomb, Rotom, Sceptile, and many more top Pokèmon. Once in, you can't predict what it will do. Although I am nominating the special set, the problem with Venusaur is that he has many viable sets. You can swap in Chansey, but you risk eating a boosted or Life Orb Power Whip or Leech Seed. You can being in Rotom to absorb the sleep, but he risks taking a Leaf Storm. The only thing that can switch into every set is possibly Weezing, who can take 40% from a Leaf Storm. Even Registeel can be slept and killed via +2 Earthquake. With this unpredictability, it is virtually guaranteed to net two kills, or a kill and sleep; often it gets more.
Unpredictability alone, however, is not enough to break a Pokèmon. Venusaur's brokeness comes from a combination of great typing (resistances to Grass, Water, Electric, and Fighting), fantastic stats (80/80/100 on the defensive and 83/100 on the offensive), and moderate speed, combined with what is arguably the best movepool in UU. Synthesis means that even if Milotic hits it with a surprise Ice Beam, its fantastic special defense lets him eat it, Synthesis off the damage, and continue to force it out the entire game.
The main pokemon people use to take on Venusaur are Fire-types, for obvious reasons. However, Fire-types have a nasty Stealth Rock weakness. This, combined with the fact that Venusaur is an amazing psuedo spin blocker (fully stops Hitmontop, Blastoise, and Donphan to an extent), means that his main counters are going to be forced to heal after taking 65% or more by a Leaf Storm + SR.
To summarize, Venusaur is broken due to its versatility which stops any one pokemon from fully countering it, its ability to very easily net two kills, counter many pokemon, and sleep another, its stats and typing which afford it many free switches to abuse said versatility, and its ability to exploit its main counters shared weakness by keeping rocks down, sleeping them, or just flat out killing them with an LO Sludge Bomb or boosted Earthquake. Venusaur is BL.
No Suspects
Nominating Venusaur under the Support Characteristic.
(Due to time constraints, I have to wrap this up quickly, so in short...)
- 80 base speed and secondary poison-typing means Venusaur can outpace the majority of grass-types in the tier, and OHKO them with Sludge Bomb.
- The only Pokemon who can safely switch into Sludge Bomb are generally slower than Venusaur (common poison-, ground-, rock-, bulky water- or steel-types) and are either weak to Venusaur's secondary STAB (ground, rock, water), or easily put to sleep/countered.
- Venusaur is incredibly versatile, and hence one often finds themselves 'testing the water' to see what they are dealing with.
Finally, Venusaur and Vileplume share the same typing, and almost identical stats barring speed (10 less for Vileplume in HP and SDef), yet Vileplume is never seen. Venusaur's additional speed and widened movepool sets it too high above its grass counterparts in the tier to deem it 'healthy'.
Venusaur is criminal for being relatively easy to switch in, yet incredibly difficult to switch into. The aspect of Venusaur which I call to question the most is how viable other grass-types become within the tier, since Venusaur can switch into just about any of them with near impunity barring excellent prediction. Exeggutor is the only grass-type who can OHKO Venusaur in normal battle conditions, whilst Timid Choice Specs Sceptile can scrape in a 2HKO with HP Ice if Stealth Rock is in play. Leafeon can only OHKO Venusaur lacking HP investment and/or a +Def nature, and provided it has managed to Swords Dance.
(Due to time constraints, I have to wrap this up quickly, so in short...)
- 80 base speed and secondary poison-typing means Venusaur can outpace the majority of grass-types in the tier, and OHKO them with Sludge Bomb.
- The only Pokemon who can safely switch into Sludge Bomb are generally slower than Venusaur (common poison-, ground-, rock-, bulky water- or steel-types) and are either weak to Venusaur's secondary STAB (ground, rock, water), or easily put to sleep/countered.
- Venusaur is incredibly versatile, and hence one often finds themselves 'testing the water' to see what they are dealing with.
Finally, Venusaur and Vileplume share the same typing, and almost identical stats barring speed (10 less for Vileplume in HP and SDef), yet Vileplume is never seen. Venusaur's additional speed and widened movepool sets it too high above its grass counterparts in the tier to deem it 'healthy'.
No Suspects, and I will be preparing paragraphs against every suspect nominated ;)
Nominating Venusaur under the Support Characteristic.
Venusaur can run a multitude of sets, its most common being special based LO (Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder / Synthesis) and Swords Dance (Swords Dance / Power Whip / Sleep Powder / Earthquake or Return). These sets are the ones I will be covering in my nomination, although I would like to note that Leech Seed sets are also fairly common, along with the occasional Mixed set or purely defensive variants.
You can't counter Venusaur with one Pokemon because counters for one set are beaten by the other. Tangrowth walls the physical set but loses to Sludge Bomb, whereas Registeel walls the special set but struggles to take boosted Earthquakes from the Swords Dance set. There are several blanket counters to both sets; however, there are also issue with them. First of all, Stealth Rock. Pokemon like Arcanine, Moltres, Altaria, and Scyther are all weak to Stealth Rock and are much more easily worn down when switching in to take hits. And no Rapid Spinner in UU can switch in on Venusaur safely, so keeping Stealth Rock up isn't very hard for a Venusaur user. Secondly, there's Sleep Powder - if these Pokemon take the sleep, then they are unable to recover from Stealth Rock damage + damage taken from switching into Venusaur's attacks, thereby wearing them down even faster.
That being said, the most notable blanket check that is not weak to Stealth Rock is Weezing - but it cannot check Venusaur by itself. Weezing is KOed by a Life Orb Leaf Storm and a Sludge Bomb followed by a Leaf Storm, meaning that it gets to switch in once after taking Venusaur's Sleep Powder (unless it wakes up on its second turn of sleep). As for the Swords Dance set, Venusaur 2HKOes Weezing with a +2 Power Whip - if Weezing doesn't Sleep Talk Will-O-Wisp (or does and misses) or wakes up early and the Weezing user doesn't predict correctly, Venusaur wins. All things considered, Weezing may be a good sleep absorber and an okay switch-in to Venusaur, but it cannot be relied upon to check Venusaur by itself.
It's also pretty difficult to find a good initial switch-in to Venusaur - especially because it has Sleep Powder. You have to take into account the risks of switching into sleep, a physical move (or Swords Dance), and a special move. Granted, you can scout its moveset with clever switches, but again, Stealth Rock's synergy with Venusaur comes into play, again considering that many of the Pokemon that can switch into its Grass attacks are 2x or 4x vulnerable to Stealth Rock.
Essentially, checking Venusaur requires more than one Pokemon due to its versatility. Few, if any, other UU Pokemon can run two completely different and yet still generally effective sets and beat the Pokemon that counter one set with the other. On top of that, there's Sleep Powder. Even if you have both special and physical Venusaur covered, you still have sleep to cover, and said sleep absorber should be able to take a hit or two from Venusaur because it doesn't always open with Sleep Powder. Even though opening with Sleep Powder is popular because it incapacitates practically everything and helps to immediately shut down a potential check or counter, it is sometimes more advantageous to use another move first instead. For instance, a common tactic with Swords Dance Venusaur is to Swords Dance first and then Sleep Powder, essentially gaining a free turn to Swords Dance unless your opponent risks Sleep Talking the same turn (assuming he switched in a proper sleep absorber). It's almost always imperative to run two Venusaur checks in order to check both physical and special variants; however, unless you run a select few combination of Pokemon (i.e. Rest / Sleep Talk Registeel, which is set up bait for a lot of things, along with a Swords Dance Venusaur counter), you will probably end up needing three Pokemon in total to deal with Venusaur. This is not even getting into Leech Seed (or SubSeed), which can outstall a portion of Venusaur's checks to other sets.
With all that having been said, I believe Venusaur's versatility and its ability to incapacitate common checks constitute dedicating a large portion of a team's resources to counter it, more so than any other Pokemon in the entire UU metagame. Sufficiently preparing for it involves leaving one's team vulnerable to other threats in the UU metagame, thereby consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. I therefore believe that Venusaur is BL under the Support Characteristic.
Venusaur can run a multitude of sets, its most common being special based LO (Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder / Synthesis) and Swords Dance (Swords Dance / Power Whip / Sleep Powder / Earthquake or Return). These sets are the ones I will be covering in my nomination, although I would like to note that Leech Seed sets are also fairly common, along with the occasional Mixed set or purely defensive variants.
You can't counter Venusaur with one Pokemon because counters for one set are beaten by the other. Tangrowth walls the physical set but loses to Sludge Bomb, whereas Registeel walls the special set but struggles to take boosted Earthquakes from the Swords Dance set. There are several blanket counters to both sets; however, there are also issue with them. First of all, Stealth Rock. Pokemon like Arcanine, Moltres, Altaria, and Scyther are all weak to Stealth Rock and are much more easily worn down when switching in to take hits. And no Rapid Spinner in UU can switch in on Venusaur safely, so keeping Stealth Rock up isn't very hard for a Venusaur user. Secondly, there's Sleep Powder - if these Pokemon take the sleep, then they are unable to recover from Stealth Rock damage + damage taken from switching into Venusaur's attacks, thereby wearing them down even faster.
That being said, the most notable blanket check that is not weak to Stealth Rock is Weezing - but it cannot check Venusaur by itself. Weezing is KOed by a Life Orb Leaf Storm and a Sludge Bomb followed by a Leaf Storm, meaning that it gets to switch in once after taking Venusaur's Sleep Powder (unless it wakes up on its second turn of sleep). As for the Swords Dance set, Venusaur 2HKOes Weezing with a +2 Power Whip - if Weezing doesn't Sleep Talk Will-O-Wisp (or does and misses) or wakes up early and the Weezing user doesn't predict correctly, Venusaur wins. All things considered, Weezing may be a good sleep absorber and an okay switch-in to Venusaur, but it cannot be relied upon to check Venusaur by itself.
It's also pretty difficult to find a good initial switch-in to Venusaur - especially because it has Sleep Powder. You have to take into account the risks of switching into sleep, a physical move (or Swords Dance), and a special move. Granted, you can scout its moveset with clever switches, but again, Stealth Rock's synergy with Venusaur comes into play, again considering that many of the Pokemon that can switch into its Grass attacks are 2x or 4x vulnerable to Stealth Rock.
Essentially, checking Venusaur requires more than one Pokemon due to its versatility. Few, if any, other UU Pokemon can run two completely different and yet still generally effective sets and beat the Pokemon that counter one set with the other. On top of that, there's Sleep Powder. Even if you have both special and physical Venusaur covered, you still have sleep to cover, and said sleep absorber should be able to take a hit or two from Venusaur because it doesn't always open with Sleep Powder. Even though opening with Sleep Powder is popular because it incapacitates practically everything and helps to immediately shut down a potential check or counter, it is sometimes more advantageous to use another move first instead. For instance, a common tactic with Swords Dance Venusaur is to Swords Dance first and then Sleep Powder, essentially gaining a free turn to Swords Dance unless your opponent risks Sleep Talking the same turn (assuming he switched in a proper sleep absorber). It's almost always imperative to run two Venusaur checks in order to check both physical and special variants; however, unless you run a select few combination of Pokemon (i.e. Rest / Sleep Talk Registeel, which is set up bait for a lot of things, along with a Swords Dance Venusaur counter), you will probably end up needing three Pokemon in total to deal with Venusaur. This is not even getting into Leech Seed (or SubSeed), which can outstall a portion of Venusaur's checks to other sets.
With all that having been said, I believe Venusaur's versatility and its ability to incapacitate common checks constitute dedicating a large portion of a team's resources to counter it, more so than any other Pokemon in the entire UU metagame. Sufficiently preparing for it involves leaving one's team vulnerable to other threats in the UU metagame, thereby consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. I therefore believe that Venusaur is BL under the Support Characteristic.
Nominating Venusaur under the Support Characteristic.
If I could copy and paste Eo's post I would... but here I go.
The sheer versatility of Venusaur has undoubtably affected the UU metagame, whether for the good or for the bad; and it's this sheer versatility that I will focus on in this post.
With seven completely viable and equally dangerous sets available to Venusaur, there is no "sure-fire" counter, or even check for that matter, to Venusaur. Each set has it's definate counters, but one can not assume directly which set the opponent is running until the opponent makes a move first. And even if one predicts correctly which set the opponent is running, one faces a consistent factor in Venusaur: Sleep Powder.
With a combination of a completely viable and dangerous special set, a completely viable and equally dangerous physical set, a mixed set, Subseed, Choice Scarf and Choice Specs sets along with Sleep Powder, most players have to run three sturdy Venusaur counters when creating a team, more so than any other Pokemon in the UU metagame, potentially exposing the player's team to the multitude of threats of the UU metagame.
To put the versatility of Venusaur into perspective, here is an elaborate example:
In an average battle, one is using a Choice Specs Sceptile and has just used Leaf Storm (whether killing something or not is up to the imagination). The opponent now switches in Venusaur. If one predicts a Sludge Bomb from Venusaur and switches in Registeel, one risks the possibilty of Venusaur using Swords Dance on the switch and soundly 2HKO'ing Registeel with Earthquake. If one predicts a Swords Dance from the same Venusaur and switches in Tangrowth, one risks getting OHKO'd by Sludge Bomb. If one predicts a Sleep Powder from Venusaur and switches in Restalk Weezing, one risks getting 2HKO'd by a Choice Specs Leaf Storm (except for the most specially defensive of Weezing.) If one predicts a Power Whip and switches in Morning Glory Arcanine, one risks switching into Stealth Rock and/or Earthquake. The list goes on endlessly.
It's this combination of Sleep Powder + sheer versatility that makes Venusaur so dangerous and the reason why it is capable of opening holes in the opponents team, allowing another Pokemon to sweep. To me, Venusaur is soundly BL.
If I could copy and paste Eo's post I would... but here I go.
The sheer versatility of Venusaur has undoubtably affected the UU metagame, whether for the good or for the bad; and it's this sheer versatility that I will focus on in this post.
With seven completely viable and equally dangerous sets available to Venusaur, there is no "sure-fire" counter, or even check for that matter, to Venusaur. Each set has it's definate counters, but one can not assume directly which set the opponent is running until the opponent makes a move first. And even if one predicts correctly which set the opponent is running, one faces a consistent factor in Venusaur: Sleep Powder.
With a combination of a completely viable and dangerous special set, a completely viable and equally dangerous physical set, a mixed set, Subseed, Choice Scarf and Choice Specs sets along with Sleep Powder, most players have to run three sturdy Venusaur counters when creating a team, more so than any other Pokemon in the UU metagame, potentially exposing the player's team to the multitude of threats of the UU metagame.
To put the versatility of Venusaur into perspective, here is an elaborate example:
In an average battle, one is using a Choice Specs Sceptile and has just used Leaf Storm (whether killing something or not is up to the imagination). The opponent now switches in Venusaur. If one predicts a Sludge Bomb from Venusaur and switches in Registeel, one risks the possibilty of Venusaur using Swords Dance on the switch and soundly 2HKO'ing Registeel with Earthquake. If one predicts a Swords Dance from the same Venusaur and switches in Tangrowth, one risks getting OHKO'd by Sludge Bomb. If one predicts a Sleep Powder from Venusaur and switches in Restalk Weezing, one risks getting 2HKO'd by a Choice Specs Leaf Storm (except for the most specially defensive of Weezing.) If one predicts a Power Whip and switches in Morning Glory Arcanine, one risks switching into Stealth Rock and/or Earthquake. The list goes on endlessly.
It's this combination of Sleep Powder + sheer versatility that makes Venusaur so dangerous and the reason why it is capable of opening holes in the opponents team, allowing another Pokemon to sweep. To me, Venusaur is soundly BL.
No suspects.
No suspects
Nominating Milotic under both Defensive and Support Characteristics
Venusaur is one of the best defensive Pokémon in UU, as it is not OHKOd or 2HKOd by a large portion of the metagame. A Special Defensive set is probably the best speciallwall, bar Chansey, Regice and special oriented Registeel, and neither of those are very common.
What sets Milotic apart from the above three is that it can work on offensive teams, though it works best on mixed. I am a big fan of the move Attract, and a set of Attract, Substitute, Surf and Icebeam on a female Milotic is one of the most annoying Pokémon you will ever face, especially with Toxic Spikes on the field. Anyway, the more common Offensive set, the specs set, can dish out powerful STAB Hydro Pumps, further boosted by Life Orb or Choice Specs, coming from a decent 100 base SpA.
The Life Orb Offensive set can even work as a wall should the need arise, if you use Recover in the last spot, that is. Also, if used on an offensive team you should use this Milotic to take predicted Thunder Waves as it gets a defensive boost thanks to Marvel Scale. Not like it's 81 Base speed was going to outspeed anything that it can OHKO anyway (ie frail attackers)
However, what truely makes Milotic a pain to face is its ability to survive boosted attacks from special attackers, even some supereffective ones, and hit them back Toxic. Nasty Plot Mismagius subs are always broken by Milotics Surf and Special Defensive Milotic isn't even 2HKOd by unboosted Shadow Balls from Mismagius. After you have broken Mismagius substitute one or two times it will try to attack you, and that is when you Toxic it to prevent it from running through your team.
If Venusaur, wich is the best Milotic counter, wich is also the most nominated Pokémon so far, does get banned from UU and put in BL, the best counter for Milotic will be Ludicolo. However, Ludicolo is slow, and the standard Milotic outspeeds (an exception to this would be in rain) it and can use Toxic on it before getting hit by a super effective STAB attack, wich it might not even die from. Milotics running Substitute can just substitute in Ludicolos face to scout for Leech Seed or Toxic, and if it does, you have a free turn to Toxic him without dying if you switch afterwards to something that resists grass.
All in all, Milotic is, in my opinion, a broken Pokémon for the UU metagame.
Venusaur is one of the best defensive Pokémon in UU, as it is not OHKOd or 2HKOd by a large portion of the metagame. A Special Defensive set is probably the best speciallwall, bar Chansey, Regice and special oriented Registeel, and neither of those are very common.
What sets Milotic apart from the above three is that it can work on offensive teams, though it works best on mixed. I am a big fan of the move Attract, and a set of Attract, Substitute, Surf and Icebeam on a female Milotic is one of the most annoying Pokémon you will ever face, especially with Toxic Spikes on the field. Anyway, the more common Offensive set, the specs set, can dish out powerful STAB Hydro Pumps, further boosted by Life Orb or Choice Specs, coming from a decent 100 base SpA.
The Life Orb Offensive set can even work as a wall should the need arise, if you use Recover in the last spot, that is. Also, if used on an offensive team you should use this Milotic to take predicted Thunder Waves as it gets a defensive boost thanks to Marvel Scale. Not like it's 81 Base speed was going to outspeed anything that it can OHKO anyway (ie frail attackers)
However, what truely makes Milotic a pain to face is its ability to survive boosted attacks from special attackers, even some supereffective ones, and hit them back Toxic. Nasty Plot Mismagius subs are always broken by Milotics Surf and Special Defensive Milotic isn't even 2HKOd by unboosted Shadow Balls from Mismagius. After you have broken Mismagius substitute one or two times it will try to attack you, and that is when you Toxic it to prevent it from running through your team.
If Venusaur, wich is the best Milotic counter, wich is also the most nominated Pokémon so far, does get banned from UU and put in BL, the best counter for Milotic will be Ludicolo. However, Ludicolo is slow, and the standard Milotic outspeeds (an exception to this would be in rain) it and can use Toxic on it before getting hit by a super effective STAB attack, wich it might not even die from. Milotics running Substitute can just substitute in Ludicolos face to scout for Leech Seed or Toxic, and if it does, you have a free turn to Toxic him without dying if you switch afterwards to something that resists grass.
All in all, Milotic is, in my opinion, a broken Pokémon for the UU metagame.
No Suspects.
- Status