USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[War Incarnate]

Oof I'm surprised at how little discussion there is here...
(Never mind, I'm wrong)
I will only include discussion points I find interesting here, even in the "Support and Dis-Support" section of this post. I may actually end up editing this post later, but for now, this will have to do.

>> A-
Ok, this may sound a tad bit controversial (punch me in the face if you need to), but Mega Slowbro and Slowbro really, really, HAVE to drop. Not only does the lack of Regenerator hurt Mega Slowbro, but also, some of what it's supposed to check, that be Terrakion or Infernape, have been experimented with methods to work around it. Not to mention that there's simply too much out there which take advantage of its lower special defense stat, and at this point, those that take advantage of this, that be Latias (Electrium Z), or Mega Altaria. Even though Hydreigon has fallen in usage after the influx of fairy-types, it's still quite high in usage, meaning that Mega Slowbro and Slowbro have to risk getting KOed early on in a game, while regular Slowbro has to worry even more about Hydreigon, Latias, and Mega Altaria as they are able to stop its Regenerator shenanigans by hitting it very hard or super effectively early on, and trust me, regular Slowbro needs Regenerator or else its physical walling capabilities aren't going to be that effective.

>> B
While it's true that Lucario does have a niche over NP sweepers such as Infernape and SD sweepers such as Cobalion, said niche is so specific that it doesn't even seem like it has a niche over these setup sweepers. 90 for speed is a bit underwhelming for something so frail, forcing it to use priority moves to bypass faster foes, leaving it somewhat squeezed for moveslots and limiting what it can hit and potentially increasing what it can't. Now, Steel/Fighting is a great typing defensively, I'll give you guys that, but Lucario isn't able to make use of this very effectively because its bulk is utter trash. Simply put, setup sweepers with worse defensive typings often find themselves with more setup opportunities because Lucario just gets 2HKOed by literally everything.

>> B+
This is kind of self-explanatory, but I will explain this just because I don't want to get this post terminated. (Takes a deep breath.). Its great coverage gifts it with great matchups versus increasingly common pokemon such as Mega Altaria (Ice Beam) and Scizor (Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, I don't know at this point). The fact that it's also not vulnerable to Pursuit, unlike Starmie, from the likes of the increasingly common Scarf Krookodile, also gives it a niche here.

I guess I'll throw in my 5 cents into the fray while I'm at it, so...:

>> A-/B+
Don't get me wrong: Mega Sharpedo is one of the best pokemon on Hyper Offense. It's just that a lot of the recent trends hurt it or make a lot of its existing issues even more noticeable. Mega Altaria asserting dominance on the UU meta hurts Mega Sharpedo because it can't even do much to it at all, while the cloud-dragon kills it with Pixalate, and trust me, you'll find this a lot on bulkier teams and offensive teams alike nowadays, which hurts Mega Sharpedo considering its ability to break bulkier teams and even some offensive teams is now officially nullified by Mega Altaria. At the same time, though, Swampert rising back in usage also hurts Mega Sharpedo, considering Swampert's typing allows it to wall Mega Sharpedo to no extent because of its only average coverage.

>> B-
I'm probably going to get death threats for this nom, but really, Mega Sceptile is horrible and I don't see why so many people disagree with a drop. As this metagame progresses, with the increase of fairy-types in the tier, it's becoming harder and harder to justify using this as a specially offensive mega evolution over Mega Blastoise. In what way does it outclass Mega Sceptile? Here's what I'm gonna have to say: Mega Blastoise doesn't care about the amount of fairy-types in the meta and is able to viably run something to kill Mega Altaria and Togekiss without having to get walled by something else and can provide utility to a team defensively via Rapid Spin. Mega Sceptile? It can't do that. HP Ice over HP Fire? Walled by Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix. Mega Blastoise? No 4MSS (Or at least not as severe as Mega Sceptile.). Ok, I will admit, its Primarina matchup is notably better than Mega Blastoise's, so it shouldn't go any lower, but, to be honest, why was it even ranked B to begin with, when it has a poor matchup against the majority of meta staples?

STUFF THAT I SUPPORT:

>> B-
I'm not kidding. This guy + one of the best playstyles in Screens HO = Absolute Destruction. However, putting this guy any higher than B- isn't a good idea, as it's outclassed as a DD sweeper by Crawdaunt due to having a notably better secondary STAB combo, not to mention that it's able to run a Z-crystal to nuke bulky threats, while Feraligatr is mandated to run Life Orb, which, while it does allow it to hit harder than Crawdaunt, can leave it hopeless against bulkier threats such as defensive variants of Primarina.

>> B
While it's true that Roserade's fraility limits what it can really do, that isn’t much of a problem considering that it’s a fantastic spikes and toxic spikes setter because it has actual offensive presence, which allows it to pressure increasingly common hazard removers. It’s hazard-laying duties can finally be put to use because of the increase in mons that enjoy the hazard services it offers.
STUFF THAT I DO NOT SUPPORT:

>> B
I don't see a niche for this garbage. Simply put, Scizor, Terrakion, Infernape, and Cobalion are way better than Heracross. Bad STAB combo, poor bulk, and overall susceptibility to getting revenge killed by common mons such as Mega Altaria and Latias really limit its effectiveness to the point where it's just... not useful anymore. If anything, it should actually DROP because of the fact that the things which wall it or just revenge kill it are simply too popular.
(Literally nothing else at this point but I might edit this section later)

 

[Estarossa]

Stoutland: UR -> C-

Set

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Facade
- Return
- Superpower

Stoutland is a niche but cool pokemon, which fits quite nicely on sand balance teams. Under sand, it hits a blistering 518 speed, outspeeding all unboosted pokemon, and all scarfers up to and including nihilego. This coupled with a base 110 attack stat and a choice band allows it to tear through defensive and offensive teams lacking bulky resists alike without a problem, especially as it outspeeds common speed control such as scarf hydreigon. It's perfect coverage options however also let it deal with resists with good prediction. The fact it needs sand to operate also means aerodactyl fits very nicely to pursuit ghost types like gengar/chandelure for stoutland too so it doesn't have to worry about clicking return/facade as much.

It is however also incredibly scary for balance and stall teams if it gets statused, as facade is able to cleanly 2hko pokemon such as hippowdon, gligar and alomamola. Its naturally decent defensive allows it to easily fish for scald burns off weaker scald users in order to do this.

The major downsides to it in my opinion are the amount of support it actually needs, with either 2 sand setters or 1 smooth rock sand setter, pursuit trapping and ideally magnet pull, and the existance of doublade which can't be trapped by magneton, is immune to 3 of the moves and must be worn down slowly, however it still takes around 40% damage if it does get hit by crunch.

While it can work without trapping, this involves a fair amount of prediction and makes it less useful if trying to take advantage of facade, and pursuit feels mandatory due to ghost types invalidating return completely. However I still see it as having a niche with this worthy of C-, as even without all this support it is still more then capable of tearing teams apart with good prediction, and it can still deal with scizor without magnet pull if it runs fire fang, just has a worse matchup vs other bulky steels.

Best replay i could find unfortunately (so many low ladder games tonight) where it ends up not doing very much lol (but does show its power against nidoqueen), but it would have swept if enemy didn't risk me going directly to mag when he pursuitted it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-930217190
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-930233954 - Would have also swept this one but they were running low speed blastoise for some reason, still put in decent work however.

 

[Kink]

This is a formal announcement. UU community, y'all ain't teachers. If you see a bad nom, you report it to Hilomilo or a member of the moderation staff. You do not personally address or attack users or their (poor) argumentation. This is why moderators exist, to moderate the conversation. All this does is drag on silly conversations beyond the scope of their original narrative. Thank you all, and have a nice day.

 

[sanguine]

If you want a fighting-type setup sweeper, use Infernape or Cobalion! Or whatever uses Swords Dance that's ranked above B/B-. That being said, Lucario's 90 speed stat isn't great - forcing you to run priority moves; and most of them are incredibly weak in power, meaning that Lucario isn't actually doing much damage to common threats such as Terrakion (I could be wrong), and Mega Altaria, even if you're running Bullet Punch. 70/70/70 defenses are total shit, and that means Lucario isn't getting much opportunities to get on its feet and set up SD. Steel/Fighting is a good defensive typing, but unlike Cobalion, it takes so much damage from EVERYTHING, even physical attacks.

Lucario’s primary set of choice is Nasty Plot, a set that can devastate fat even if they play well, but I suppose my next point applies to both SD and NP sets: Lucario is stronger than both, by a huge margin while still having the typing of Cobalion, which enables it to soft check any Scizor set, including QA Scizor, which drops Infernape, and it has better moves than Cobalion if you choose to use the SD set. These are hugely substantive differences which offer Lucario a defined niche in this metagame, and nothing has changed since it initially rose to warrant a drop. It might not be a very good Steel-type revenge killer. So what? It’s not Scizor. So what it doesn’t have good defenses? They’re good enough for the purpose of setting up on an Alomomola or locked-into-BP Scizor, especially considering the fact of once again, even if the balance/bo player plays well, they can still lose. Once again, I don’t really see a reason for a drop.

Mega Altaria asserting dominance on the UU meta hurts Mega Sharpedo because it can't even do much to it at all, while the cloud-dragon kills it with Pixalate, and trust me, you'll find this a lot on bulkier teams and offensive teams alike nowadays, which hurts Mega Sharpedo considering its ability to break bulkier teams and even some offensive teams is now officially nullified by Mega Altaria.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Ice Fang vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 226-268 (73.1 - 86.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (disclaimer this set is literally pretty much only on stall teams so you’re mega’ing right away regardless in this matchup even if you don’t have hazards)

These calcs are in addition to the fact that Mega Altaria is weak to Stealth Rock pre-Mega Evolution and HO teams generally get at least two spikes up and Stealth Rock before going for it.

It's forced to compete with Mega Aerodactyl as a physically offensive mega because Mega Aero at least has some bulk to speak of, is faster and not reliant on boosts from an ability pre-mega, which means that it's not forced to waste a slot on something that could have been reserved for useful coverage for Protect, while Mega Sharpedo's poor movepool means that it's going to get walled by stuff such as Mega Aggron because it can't fit all the coverage it needs on one set thanks to mandating Protect.

Mega Aerodactyl doesn’t fit on Hyper Offense? It doesn’t have the power of Sharpedo to take advantage of the hazard stack HO typically does? Sharpedo doesnt need the fourth move between Crunch / Ice Fang / Earthquake covering the whole metagame? I’m also wondering how having trouble getting by the 140 / 230 HP / Defense uncommon mega is somehow a knock against Sharpedo? If anything that speaks to the level of power Sharpedo has if you have to resort to that defense stat to wall it?

Swampert rising back in usage also hurts Mega Sharpedo, considering Swampert's typing allows it to wall Mega Sharpedo to no extent because of its only average coverage.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
The no recovery, important to check the likes of Cobalion and Scizor (common Sharpedo teammates) mon that gets 3HKOed at the very minimum walls Sharpedo? You can argue it’s a check, but my friend this isn’t a fucking counter. Hell, it’s a soft check at best.

I don’t know how to segue into my next point but it’s a restatement regardless. Nothing has changed in the metagame for this to even be thought about, never mind actually done. Mega Sharpedo remains the preeminent Mega for HO to this day for good reason. I know this because there’s only so many times you can lose to CBU and Adaam in tests and ladder respectively before you realize how threatening this Pokémon actually is, and how soft a lot of checks like Cobalion and defensive Primarina and Altaria actually are.

I’m bad at transitions:

t's just so outclassed by Nidoking because of the fact that Nidoqueen is slower and is unable to deal with popular fairies such as Togekiss and Mega Altaria, while in return, it risks getting an Air Slash flinch or just straight up brutalized by Earthquake, respectively, because of its crummy speed on offensive sets, while bulkier sets find themselves outclassed by Hippowdon and Gligar because of the fact that they possess superior bulk, allowing them to take more abuse more effectively from more increasingly popular meta trends, although they lack the offensive presence Nidoqueen has, but that's not enough to justify a rise for Nidoqueen.

Nidoqueen and Nidoking do drastically different things if you really dissect the nuances. Nidoking is primarily a wallbreaker utilizing substitute and decent speed to get opportunities to “click click click” as dingbat would put it. Nidoqueen, however is an offensive Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes setter because it can dispose of the most common hazard removers in Rotom-Heat / Gligar / Empoleon / Scarf Defog Hydreigon with ease while being able to check SD Terrakion / Doublade / Cobalion / Unboosted Altaria / CB Sciz / Manectric from full, whilst still being a wallbreaker stronger than Nidoking due to the Modest nature it runs. Any of these roles on their own would be inherently valuable to the metagame, but compressing them all into one slot is what really warrants the rise. Additionally, neither Nidoking nor Nidoqueen are very good Fairy-type checks, because nobody is asking them to be. I really don’t see the point in keeping Nidoqueen, a Pokémon that does so much well down in C- just because it does a thing nobody’s asking it to marginally worse than another Pokémon which does a different role regardless of type sharing.

Let’s wrap this up:

I don’t do this to be mean, but I do it because I think your points are flawed at best. I don’t really see the point in attacking anyone over a children’s game. I do urge you, however to watch UUPL/SPL replays / play at 1620 - 1700 ELO on ladder / really think critically about if your ideas hold water before posting. And if you can’t, ask for help! I’m sure Kink or Hogg (the tier leader) or Hilomilo (the thread host) or even myself will be able to help you out in reasoning through nominations. Have a wonderful day.

 

[Taptricity]

Alright SteelixPrismGX I think some of the information presented here is wrong so I’ll go through this.

Regenerator hurt it, but also, some of what it's supposed to check, that be Terrakion or Infernape, have been experimented with methods to work around it. Yes, 95 / 180 / 80 + Shell Armor = Good bulk, don't get me wrong. But take a look at its special defense. 80 for special defense is crud considering that Mega Slowbro lacks a way to boost its special defense outside of some gimmicky CM set or Amnesia, and even if it does, Water/Psychic is an abysmal typing, meaning that meta staples such as Latias and Mega Altaria take advantage of that really, really, well.

Slowbro’s mediocre Special Defense or a bad Defensive stat is a terrible reason to drop any sort of Pokémon unless it’s not checking meta relevant threats (which Mega Bro is doing). It’s like saying Blissey is bad and should be dropped because its Defense is just not there and against Scizor, Terrakion, and Cobalion it’s hopeless. My other point is why would you keep your Mega Slowbro in against a Latias or Hydreigon or any strong Special Attacker for that matter? That’s not what it’s supposed to be checking. Anyway, bringing Mega Altaria and Latias is a gamble anyway as he former hates switching in on both an Ice Beam and a boosted Psyshock while the latter despises Ice Beam. And Calm Mind is in no way a gimmick, it is actually one of Mega Slowbro’s better sets. With Calm Mind boosts, a monstrous Defense stat, and Shell Armor to prevent Mega Slowbro from taking crits, Mega Slowbro can be a devastating sweeper in the late-game and is still a fine check against a handful of physical attackers before Mega evolving. Also some BlockBro Mega Slowbros carry Calm Mind as well to abuse passive Pokemon as easy set up fodder.

If you want a fighting-type setup sweeper, use Infernape or Cobalion! Or whatever uses Swords Dance that's ranked above B/B-. That being said, Lucario's 90 speed stat isn't great - forcing you to run priority moves; and most of them are incredibly weak in power, meaning that Lucario isn't actually doing much damage to common threats such as Terrakion (I could be wrong), and Mega Altaria, even if you're running Bullet Punch. 70/70/70 defenses are total shit, and that means Lucario isn't getting much opportunities to get on its feet and set up SD. Steel/Fighting is a good defensive typing, but unlike Cobalion, it takes so much damage from EVERYTHING, even physical attacks.

You seemed to completely gloss over Nasty Plot Lucario which is also seriously devastating as a cleaner. Both of these sets existing initially make Lucario somewhat difficult to scout at preview and while this isn’t exclusive to say Infernape, it’s still blasphemous that you would focus on a Lucario drop and not even mention Nasty Plot which is in my opinion the better of the two sweeping sets (with Vacuum Wave to yes beat Terrakion). Anyway, Lucario sets itself apart from Infernape because of its Steel-typing which lets it beat Mega Altaria and Primarina which Infernape will have issues breaking. Not only that but being able to block all attempts of revenge killing from Scizor from Bullet Punch or Quick Attack while taking neutral from Aqua Jet can make Lucario actually pretty difficult to revenge kill with slower breakers. Why do you even mention Lucario’s fragility when you shouldn’t be just slamming Lucario into an attack before setting up. Notice how I haven’t even mentioned Cobalion because it plays a different role anyway. Cobalion is an offensive Pokémon that offers a load of utility and you can legitimately use a non Swords Dance Cobalion pretty effectively. I’ve used Cobalion multiple times without Swords Dance (Taunt, Expert Belt, Chople) and these sets still offer interesting uses to offensive teams. Maybe I went offtopic but my point is that Cobalion should in no way be used to compare itself to Lucario. I’m kind of 50/50 when it comes to rising and dropping Lucario but one thing I can say is that it shouldn’t be dropping for these reasons not even in the slightest.

I can think of that has access to both Rapid Spin and super effective coverage against most, if not all ghost-types (Dark Pulse), particularly Gengar, something that stuff such as Tentacruel and even Starmie only wish they could have.

I mean when Starmie carries Psyshock and Hydro Pump and Tentacruel has Knock Off, they have exactly the tools they need to annoy Ghost-types if we’re mostly talking about Doublade, Gengar, and Chandelure (Hoopa’s very niche but it still probably doesn’t want to be setting up on Tentacruel). They aren’t completely hopeless like you imply them to be as Doublade losing its Eviolite can quickly offer major consequences. Yeah I get you’re talking about them in the vein of spinblockers but a more accurate example would be talking about Jellicent and not Ghost-types as a whole. Gengar’s really ehhhhhh as a spinblocker anyway.

It's forced to compete with Mega Aerodactyl as a physically offensive mega because Mega Aero at least has some bulk to speak of, is faster and not reliant on boosts from an ability pre-mega, which means that it's not forced to waste a slot on something that could have been reserved for useful coverage for Protect, while Mega Sharpedo's poor movepool means that it's going to get walled by stuff such as Mega Aggron because it can't fit all the coverage it needs on one set thanks to mandating Protect.

Mega Sharpedo is in no way outclassed by Mega Aerodactyl nor are the two in any relation to each other outside of being Megas. Mega Aerodactyl is a fast Pokémon that does an excellent job bullying and revenge killing weakened threats. Mega Sharpedo is a late-game cleaner who should be saved until the right moment to clean up the opponent’s team once its checks have been weakened/removes and the remainder of opposing Pokémon have taken too much hazard damage. Also Mega Sharpedo is picking off Mega Altaria with Ice Fang and Amoonguss needs to be wary of Psychic Fangs while Earthquake can annoy Mega Aggron who without any reliable recovery, can be chipped really easily if you play your hand right. Spikes is either or with me currently but these points were wrong so had to offer some sort of rebuttal.

As this metagame progresses, with the increase of fairy-types in the tier, it's becoming harder and harder to justify using this as a specially offensive mega evolution over Mega Blastoise (yes, Mega Houndoom and Mega Pidgeot are examples, but don't get me started on those dinguses). In what way does it outclass Mega Sceptile? Here's what I'm gonna have to say: Mega Blastoise doesn't care about the amount of fairy-types in the meta and is able to viably run something to kill Mega Altaria and Togekiss without having to get walled by something else and can provide utility to a team defensively via Rapid Spin. Mega Sceptile? It can't do that. HP Ice over HP Fire? Walled by Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix. Mega Blastoise? No 4MSS (Or at least not as severe as Mega Sceptile.). Ok, I will admit, its Primarina matchup is notably better than Mega Blastoise's,

But other Mega Evolutions should not be used to compare to Mega Sceptile. Not every team needs to run a Mega Evolution and most play quite different compared to each other. You’d have a more reasonable post if you related Mega Sceptile to other offensive Grass-types like Celebi or Tsareena. Yeah Mega Blastoise matches up better to Mega Altaria and Togekiss but it’s doing really doing anything against any other Fairy-type. Mega Houndoom and Mega Pidgeot should not be used in this comparison either. I’m fine with a Mega Sceptile drop but the comparison game with Mega Evolutions is not a good argument for dropping anything.

However, putting this guy any higher than B- isn't a good idea, as it's outclassed as a DD sweeper by Crawdaunt due to having a notably better secondary STAB combo, not to mention that it's able to run a Z-crystal to nuke bulky threats, while Feraligatr is mandated to run Life Orb, which, while it does allow it to hit harder than Crawdaunt, can leave it hopeless against bulkier threats such as defensive variants of Primarina.

I will admit I chuckled when I first read that Dragon Dance Crawdaunt was being used to compare itself to Feraligatr. Dragon Dance Crawdaunt is completely unviable. You’re not outspeeding anything notable at +1 and you’ll be lucky to obtain any boosts after that due to how frail Crawdaunt is against any attack. I will concede that Primarina does in fact lose to Feraligatr when it’s under Screens as Primarina relies on unfavorable rolls to get rid of Ferliagatr.

I have nothing to say about Roserade though as the argument was adequate albeit kinda lacking. Spikes Roserade is better than Sleep Powder Roserade .

Could care less about Heracross though as it’s been fairly underwhelming for me outside of being an early-game breaker. Yeah it can be annoying in the Stall matchup but losing to Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Slowbro is not fun.

It's just an inconsistent piece of rubbish that people call "good". Does it have any use? No. Unless you want to get your butt kicked by the top UU players for using a noobtrap. That sort of stuff aside, Venomoth is too easily revenge killed by pokemon which are increasing in popularity, that be Scizor, or Scarf Krookodile (Probably not seeing more usage, but whatever), not to mention that it's too inconsistent even on Screens HO teams, as it can't even make use of Screens as a result of its poor bulk and the fact that it isn't even that rewarding under the proper support, unlike Linoone, who is also frail and is commonly seen on Screens HO teams because of the fact it's so rewarding as a late-game sweeper that fits only on one playstyle. Perhaps if someone shows replays which are above 1500 ELO on the UU ladder with Venomoth doing actual work on Screens HO teams then maybe I can agree, but otherwise, NO NOOBTRAPS ALLOWED ON THE UU VIABILITY RANKINGS.

Venomoth is in no way a “noobtrap” in UU. I remember Esta telling me how it was used in Research Week before it was unranked and how it was actually a pretty decent Pokémon. Venomoth does have a niche though under Screens. It’s the only viable Quiver Dance user in the tier and it becomes very oppressive and devastating under Screens and has a much larger window of opportunity to set up. Twilight also made a really banging Venomoth Screens that I laddered with at one point for the Scizor Suspect and I went 14-0 with it before losing and then faultering because I suck at battling lmao. Venomoth is also seriously unexplored in the various other options it can bolster like Roost, Disable, Substitute, a Choice Specs set, etc. Venomoth clearly does carry a niche though to get it reranked again.

It's just so outclassed by Nidoking because of the fact that Nidoqueen is slower and is unable to deal with popular fairies such as Togekiss and Mega Altaria, while in return, it risks getting an Air Slash flinch or just straight up brutalized by Earthquake, respectively, because of its crummy speed on offensive sets, while bulkier sets find themselves outclassed by Hippowdon and Gligar because of the fact that they possess superior bulk, allowing them to take more abuse more effectively from more increasingly popular meta trends, although they lack the offensive presence Nidoqueen has, but that's not enough to justify a rise for Nidoqueen.

Your assessment is unfortunately wrong Nidoqueen can actually outdamage Nidoking on the offensive set due to it being able to afford to run Modest because of its bulk. Nidoqueen also possesses a niche over Hippowdon and Gligar due to its added Poison-typing which makes it have the upper hand against VoltTurn cores due to its resistance to U-turn and less passive nature. It’s also a decent Toxic Spikes setter if you can afford to use that over Stealth Rock. But yeah Nidoqueen not being able to deal with Fairy-types when it’s a strong Poison-type with a potent Poison-type move is wrong on many levels. It’s a niche Pokémon, but it can move it’s weight.

Overall, this has all been edited to reflect Kink’s standards (and hopefully this is the last argument against this).

Now time for me to present my own nominations because I’d rather move on.

Starmie to A-
So I really really like Starmie currently. Yeah it can be hard at times to fit on teams, but it’s shown to be amazing for offensive teams and more bulkier teams with its bulky spinner set. Starmie is also seriously customizable after playing around with a Scarf set that doubles as speed control and a lure along with spinning away hazards. Infernape and Terrakion being at their peak right now supports this nomination as Starmie is a great offensive check against them and other Fighting-types. I feel like Starmie still has loads of untapped potential in this metagame so some more exploration with it can further prove this.

Jellicent to B+
I know that people were at one point convinced that Jellicent improving in the tier was a trend, but this Pokémon is actually an amazing bulky Water. It easily discourages Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl from even attempting to trap it due to the looming presence of Will-O-Wisp and it’s also a pretty nifty Scizor check. Honestly you can just spread Wisp and Jellicent is still going to be wrecking on all your Physical Attackers without having to Taunt. It’s also a decent stallbreaker (Toxic Spikes paired with Jelli is actually terrifying af for Stall) but Jellicent mainly is very fulfilling defensively.

Barbaracle to C+
Screens is now seriously good atm so allow me to enlighten you on another monster of an offensive Water-type on this playstyle, Barbaracle. This Pokémon is an absolute nightmare behind Screens as it offers it major opportunities to set up Shell Smash and SMASH the opposing team. “But BAYB, why should I consider Barbaracle over Feraligatr?” Says the imaginary person I’m speaking to. Well simply put, Barbaracle has a stronger matchup against Stall. Its combined mixed power of Liquidation, Stone Edge, and Grass Knot allows for Barbaracle to break Quagsire and Pyukumuku much faster while using Rockium Z to remove Alomomola and Amoonguss. Screens complements Barbaracle as it functions as a pseudo White Herb once it’s set up. If Feraligatr rises, than I see no reason not to raise Barbaracle for its better Stall matchup.

Some other nominations I agree with but I’ve been using up loads of time making this post and what not lol.

Gengar to A-
Bronzong to B
Reuniclus to B
Roserade to B
Ferliagatr to wherever the fuck you think reflects it best
Nidoqueen to C+ (or even B- lol this mon should’ve never dropped)
Linoone to C
Claydol to C-
Venomoth to C-
Xatu to C-

Alright peace out!

Also sniped by faded love on some of my points

 

[yeezyknows]

A- ----> A

I'm not making this nom on the basis of LO/dread plate/darkinium sets. Those sets are firmly A-, and while threatening on HO, they serve little utility otherwise. However, I sincerely believe that av bisharp is bar none the best and most consistent latias trapper in the tier, and argubly the best trapper in general when its defensive utility is factored in. It's bulkier than krookodile, easily sponging latias' two stabs in addition to taking z-thunder relatively well. AV bish also avoids the 50/50 that krookodile poses, as pursuit is a no drawback play once an unboosted lati is switched in on.

Now, why is this important? Obviously, latias is a centralizing threat, inarguably a top three, arguably top two mon in the meta. While important, that alone doesn't make trapping lati so crucial. What makes trapping latias important revolves around the utility it creates for numerous mons, most notably NP infernape, NP celebi, and suicune. These three mons become near-unstoppable once latias (and celebi in the case of suicune) are trapped by av bish, as their primary means of counterplay has been removed from the game. Without latias (and celebi in the case of suicune), celebi, suicune and infernape all destroy the majority of builds, as very few mons can reliably stop or revenge these boosted mons other than latias.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, as mega-altaria poses a large threat to suicune and np ape regardless, but i'm in the camp that this is arguably the most broken team archetype in the tier. With the dearth of counterplay to these mons outside of latias, trapping their main means of counterplay pays incredible dividends with regard to sweeping teams.

Latias isn't the only mon that's trapped/countered/checked by av bish, as previously noted (non-groundium, which is incredibly rare regardless) celebi is hard countered and trapped by av bish. In addition to this, nihilego, primarina, starmie, and hydreigon are also either trapped or relatively freely pivoted into.

All in all, I'm an av bish truther. I believe that this mon and the according playstyle is almost broken in certain regards and that as a result bisharp is wholly deserving of a rise.

 

[Bread_Wood]

View attachment 181211

A- ----> A

I'm not making this nom on the basis of LO/dread plate/darkinium sets. Those sets are firmly A-, and while threatening on HO, they serve little utility otherwise. However, I sincerely believe that av bisharp is bar none the best and most consistent latias trapper in the tier, and argubly the best trapper in general when its defensive utility is factored in. It's bulkier than krookodile, easily sponging latias' two stabs in addition to taking z-thunder relatively well. AV bish also avoids the 50/50 that krookodile poses, as pursuit is a no drawback play once an unboosted lati is switched in on.

Now, why is this important? Obviously, latias is a centralizing threat, inarguably a top three, arguably top two mon in the meta. While important, that alone doesn't make trapping lati so crucial. What makes trapping latias important revolves around the utility it creates for numerous mons, most notably NP infernape, NP celebi, and suicune. These three mons become near-unstoppable once latias (and celebi in the case of suicune) are trapped by av bish, as their primary means of counterplay has been removed from the game. Without latias (and celebi in the case of suicune), celebi, suicune and infernape all destroy the majority of builds, as very few mons can reliably stop or revenge these boosted mons other than latias.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, as mega-altaria poses a large threat to suicune and np ape regardless, but i'm in the camp that this is arguably the most broken team archetype in the tier. With the dearth of counterplay to these mons outside of latias, trapping their main means of counterplay pays incredible dividends with regard to sweeping teams.

Latias isn't the only mon that's trapped/countered/checked by av bish, as previously noted (non-groundium, which is incredibly rare regardless) celebi is hard countered and trapped by av bish. In addition to this, nihilego, primarina, starmie, and hydreigon are also either trapped or relatively freely pivoted into.

All in all, I'm an av bish truther. I believe that this mon and the according playstyle is almost broken in certain regards and that as a result bisharp is wholly deserving of a rise.

Do you have a set or a team you use this on? I’d like to test it.

 

[SacredLatias]

View attachment 181211

A- ----> A

I'm not making this nom on the basis of LO/dread plate/darkinium sets. Those sets are firmly A-, and while threatening on HO, they serve little utility otherwise. However, I sincerely believe that av bisharp is bar none the best and most consistent latias trapper in the tier, and argubly the best trapper in general when its defensive utility is factored in. It's bulkier than krookodile, easily sponging latias' two stabs in addition to taking z-thunder relatively well. AV bish also avoids the 50/50 that krookodile poses, as pursuit is a no drawback play once an unboosted lati is switched in on.

Now, why is this important? Obviously, latias is a centralizing threat, inarguably a top three, arguably top two mon in the meta. While important, that alone doesn't make trapping lati so crucial. What makes trapping latias important revolves around the utility it creates for numerous mons, most notably NP infernape, NP celebi, and suicune. These three mons become near-unstoppable once latias (and celebi in the case of suicune) are trapped by av bish, as their primary means of counterplay has been removed from the game. Without latias (and celebi in the case of suicune), celebi, suicune and infernape all destroy the majority of builds, as very few mons can reliably stop or revenge these boosted mons other than latias.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, as mega-altaria poses a large threat to suicune and np ape regardless, but i'm in the camp that this is arguably the most broken team archetype in the tier. With the dearth of counterplay to these mons outside of latias, trapping their main means of counterplay pays incredible dividends with regard to sweeping teams.

Latias isn't the only mon that's trapped/countered/checked by av bish, as previously noted (non-groundium, which is incredibly rare regardless) celebi is hard countered and trapped by av bish. In addition to this, nihilego, primarina, starmie, and hydreigon are also either trapped or relatively freely pivoted into.

All in all, I'm an av bish truther. I believe that this mon and the according playstyle is almost broken in certain regards and that as a result bisharp is wholly deserving of a rise.

I completely agree here, AV Bisharp is an incredibly solid pokemon being able to deal with some threatening sweepers such as Latias and Celebi while also being a good pokemon to fall back on in a pinch because of its quite powerful priority. This thing has always been a star on any HO team that i've built, and is able to pressure stall pretty reasonably by virtue of knock off and the toxic immunity. It also does decently versus malt, which is always something nice.

 

[Sickist]

Alright, for once I'm here to make a nomination.

Togekiss from A -> A-

The metagame does not like this thing at the moment. The only thing that was really keeping Togekiss in A was it's stallbreaking ability, which is now borderline worthless due to stall starting to run countermeasures, such as Nihilego and Specially Defensive Pyukumuku. However, it is not worse due to only these factors. It's defog set is pretty bad right now, (I was never a fan of it anyways), and it as a whole just seems a lot harder to slot in teams due to other fairy types just being better.

I know the whole "just because they share a type doesn't mean they do the same thing", but this is a different case. For the most part, the reason you have a fairy is to be safer vs Hydreigon and other dark types, which other fairies do alot better then Togekiss at the moment. Togekiss is still okay with it's offensive Nasty Plot set, and scarf is okay I guess? It's just not as good as it used to be, and I think having it ranked at A- reflects this better then it's current rank.

 

[DiscoDucky]

With the prevalence of screens, should Aurorus and Sandslash still be ranked in UU? I know that Aurora Veil offense is in of itself very threatening, but a fair number of Dual Screen teams exhibit a greater consistency and reliability with setting up screens than that of A-Veil.

Tentatively, I'm nominating Aurorus and Sandslash to be Unranked.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

With the prevalence of screens, should Aurorus and Sandslash still be ranked in UU? I know that Aurora Veil offense is in of itself very threatening, but a fair number of Dual Screen teams exhibit a greater consistency and reliability with setting up screens than that of A-Veil.

Tentatively, I'm nominating Aurorus and Sandslash to be Unranked.

Aurora Veil still holds it's own niche compared to screens, One thing of note is that Alola Sandslash is a lot less passive than a lot of screens setters. Dual Screens on mons like Azelf, Xatu, etc. closes up 2 moveslots on the mon carrying screens. This very easily creates scenarios in which the screens setter itself could easily be taken advantage of depending on what it's running to deal with getting set up on while Alolaslash usually has 2 attacking moveslots to hit a respectable chunk of the tier if it desperately needs to not be used by something. In addition, dual screens consistency over Slash is purely subjective. Against certain teams/mons, dual screens setters may struggle to get up both screens vs an opponent with offensive pressure on them, sometimes leading to awkward judgement calls where you might be stuck setting one screen, or forgo setting screens all together. Slash doesn't have to worry about picking a screen to set if it knows it's going to go down. Also, its much harder to interrupt Slash in general. A faster mon with KO potential can cause problems for a lot of the current dual screens setters while Alola-Slash rarely runs into this issue with slush rush letting it even jump some common scarfers. Granted, there are some things that can still stop it from setting, like rare scarf 108s and fighting priority. but they're a lot less common than the number of faster mons that can pressure the dual screeners. I do think both archetypes can exist in the same tier, as they have very small niches over eachother.
TLDR: Screens is pretty well rounded, usually having better responses to enemy hazards/screen removers, and not having to deal with running two mons with mediocre defensive typings, but I definitely feel like Veil is much better at handling offensive pressure from the enemy team, and doesn't have to play as methodically as some screens teams do against a poor matchup.
I hope that makes sense, that's just my outlook on how they compare. Maybe a drop to C- would reflect the genuine competition that dual screens gives veil, but I don't think screens completely outmatches veil to the point that veil deserves a complete unranking. There are definitely situations in which I'd rather be playing veil than dual screens.

 

[crucify]

First time making a nom so apologies for any errors I'm also no good so feel free to say this is nonsense and I'm wrong in any part. (And I'm probably wrong)

Mega-Aerodactyl to S

I'm relatively new to the tier (I played it probably 6 months ago or something but i assume the meta has changed since then), and I think that this Pokemon is so splash able, versatile, powerful, provides utility, fits on so many different teams, and overall is meta-defining enough to be S rank. Its the fastest mon in the tier which is cool. It has the edge/quake coverage which is good, pursuit trap for lati, celebi, etc, roost for recovery, and can also run stuff like flying stab, hone claws + crunch, ice fang for gligar, fire fang to surprise sciz/ferroseed/forretress (which is extremely uncommon but still cool), and aqua tail chunks hippowdon. It can also be ran as a rocker/defogger, and has taunt/roar so there can be some suicide lead shenanigans, but those sets aren't as good imo. This also happens to be a weakness of Mega-Aero, 4MSS, but the most common set is Edge/Quake/Suit/Roost

This mon fits on pretty much every common archetype, the exception being hyper offense. There's balance/bulky offense teams that make use of hippo/empoleon as support that is super common, hippo for rocks/sand stream boosting mega aero's spdef to better check special attackers such as Moltres, and empoleon can defog/taunt/knock/check sciz/etc.

(Will use replays to show teams that it fits on rather than show what it does for this portion, won't go too in depth. also mega aero doesn't do much in these games but that's not my current point)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-930555833
This team isn't from a tournament, but it was used by pif whos 1/2 on the uu ladder right now so its probably reasonable. It's a balance/semi stall build that has Mega-Aero for pursuit support and speed control. (Can't use personal feelings but I've been dropped by this team multiple times on the ladder)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-443473
I think this was a UUPL game in BO3. This is a well known stall team that Pearl made I believe, with Mega-Aero for pursuit trapping and speed control, also counters togekiss which is nice.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-443151
UUPL Semi's game, Mega-Aero provides a flying resist, ground immunity, and speed control which is nice because there's no scarfer (wow don't even need a scarfer mega aero speed control too strong no flame kappa). Also does other things.

The first two teams are sort of similar, but these replays show how Mega-Aero can be used on multiple different archetypes to great effect, which cannot be said for many other mons. The most common of those mons, Mega-Alt and Scizor, are also in S rank, so it's reasonable to say that the mon has no equal in the role that it brings. BUT SCARF KROOK- has the same stuff AND intimidate BUT can get knocked and can't switch moves.

So yeah TL;DR the variety of teams it can be ran on easily, being able to run different sets to break through checks, and overall meta-definingness (unword) makes this mon deserving of S rank.

BUT
This mon is not without weaknesses. It gets OBLITERATED (like straight Exodia'd/ Thanos snapped depending on what generation your from) by common priority such as bullet punch from scizor (broken mon), ice shard from mamo, bullet punch from lucario, and other things. This thing's bulk is no good, but it can have sand stream from hippo to help, and checks for priority moves and the mons that have them.
Offensive Mega-Alt can dd in its mouth which is not ideal, but broken mon.
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 156-184 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Weak to rocks
4MSS as previously stated, but its not that harsh as something like mega-venu in ou
Cobalion checks and wrecks it and can run shuca to wreck it even more (can't switch in without it)
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 180-214 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lots of counters in general, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Bronzong (all steels Pog), bulky waters, etc. Good thing there are 5 other mons on a Pokemon team to help

And another things is whether or not its a leg above the other A+ mons, and if its on the same level of the other S mons.
And i mean idk all those other mons in A+ are threats, same with S rank
And someone else can speak on this because I'm more focused on its individual strenght

I would personally make like a S- but idk about splitting up S rank

Anyways, thanks for reading and let me know what you all think Ready for the flame and logical fallacies exposed

 

[Sickist]

First time making a nom so apologies for any errors I'm also no good so feel free to say this is nonsense and I'm wrong in any part. (And I'm probably wrong)

Mega-Aerodactyl to S

I'm relatively new to the tier (I played it probably 6 months ago or something but i assume the meta has changed since then), and I think that this Pokemon is so splash able, versatile, powerful, provides utility, fits on so many different teams, and overall is meta-defining enough to be S rank. Its the fastest mon in the tier which is cool. It has the edge/quake coverage which is good, pursuit trap for lati, celebi, etc, roost for recovery, and can also run stuff like flying stab, hone claws + crunch, ice fang for gligar, fire fang to surprise sciz/ferroseed/forretress (which is extremely uncommon but still cool), and aqua tail chunks hippowdon. It can also be ran as a rocker/defogger, and has taunt/roar so there can be some suicide lead shenanigans, but those sets aren't as good imo. This also happens to be a weakness of Mega-Aero, 4MSS, but the most common set is Edge/Quake/Suit/Roost

This mon fits on pretty much every common archetype, the exception being hyper offense. There's balance/bulky offense teams that make use of hippo/empoleon as support that is super common, hippo for rocks/sand stream boosting mega aero's spdef to better check special attackers such as Moltres, and empoleon can defog/taunt/knock/check sciz/etc.

(Will use replays to show teams that it fits on rather than show what it does for this portion, won't go too in depth. also mega aero doesn't do much in these games but that's not my current point)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-930555833
This team isn't from a tournament, but it was used by pif whos 1/2 on the uu ladder right now so its probably reasonable. It's a balance/semi stall build that has Mega-Aero for pursuit support and speed control. (Can't use personal feelings but I've been dropped by this team multiple times on the ladder)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-443473
I think this was a UUPL game in BO3. This is a well known stall team that Pearl made I believe, with Mega-Aero for pursuit trapping and speed control, also counters togekiss which is nice.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-443151
UUPL Semi's game, Mega-Aero provides a flying resist, ground immunity, and speed control which is nice because there's no scarfer (wow don't even need a scarfer mega aero speed control too strong no flame kappa). Also does other things.

The first two teams are sort of similar, but these replays show how Mega-Aero can be used on multiple different archetypes to great effect, which cannot be said for many other mons. The most common of those mons, Mega-Alt and Scizor, are also in S rank, so it's reasonable to say that the mon has no equal in the role that it brings. BUT SCARF KROOK- has the same stuff AND intimidate BUT can get knocked and can't switch moves.

So yeah TL;DR the variety of teams it can be ran on easily, being able to run different sets to break through checks, and overall meta-definingness (unword) makes this mon deserving of S rank.

BUT
This mon is not without weaknesses. It gets OBLITERATED (like straight Exodia'd/ Thanos snapped depending on what generation your from) by common priority such as bullet punch from scizor (broken mon), ice shard from mamo, bullet punch from lucario, and other things. This thing's bulk is no good, but it can have sand stream from hippo to help, and checks for priority moves and the mons that have them.
Offensive Mega-Alt can dd in its mouth which is not ideal, but broken mon.
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 156-184 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Weak to rocks
4MSS as previously stated, but its not that harsh as something like mega-venu in ou
Cobalion checks and wrecks it and can run shuca to wreck it even more (can't switch in without it)
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 180-214 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lots of counters in general, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Bronzong (all steels Pog), bulky waters, etc. Good thing there are 5 other mons on a Pokemon team to help

And another things is whether or not its a leg above the other A+ mons, and if its on the same level of the other S mons.
And i mean idk all those other mons in A+ are threats, same with S rank
And someone else can speak on this because I'm more focused on its individual strenght

I would personally make like a S- but idk about splitting up S rank

Anyways, thanks for reading and let me know what you all think Ready for the flame and logical fallacies exposed

I mean yes, Aero does seem more splashable and alot better as of recently, but I feel like your post was more describing why it shouldn't move up instead. It's still a good mega and a great A+ mon in the tier, but S is a little high for it. Aero does have it's strong suites in being able to check Moltres, (sometimes) check trap Latias and Celebi, as well as even function as a rocker in some scenarios. It can be used on many building styles, from BO to Stall, so it is deserving of A+ rank indefinitely.

However, it lacks the utility and defensive prowess, as well as the numerous successful sets that the other S ranks have. Altaria has a dragon dance set and a bulky set, which both can be used on more then one playstyle. Scizor and Latias also both have numerous successful sets that truely make them meta defining. Meta Defining is what basically an S rank represents, and Mega Aero, while really good, falls short of that. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask any of us in the UU Simple Questions Simple Answers thread, and we'll be happy to help!

 

[spuds4ever]

Just posting to suppor mega shark dropping. It does have a unique niche with being the only viable speed booster with a stab that has great od coverage and resists the best form of priority in the tier but I honestly don't think it's that great a niche in the current meta. Firstly spikes on offence only really has froslass as a viable setter as keys is such a free defog for the best two removers in the tier in gligar and emp and even running bisharp doesn't really help in the formers case (also bad overlap with keys). On top of that even with teams that don't have good spikes removal, krook is still the best and most consistent scarfer in the tier rn (even more so than hydra imo) and intimidate available really cuts ur only sweep opportunity short. Shark was v good back in the serp meta who could punish defog better and krook and fat teams were rarer but not so much now I feel.

Also I'm a massive fan of aero and it was definitely an S tier threat in oras but in sumo i couldn't reasonably put it in the same tier as the dragons and scizor when scizor really messes it up more so than mega alt or Latina which can often make room for coverage to donk scizor just nuke it with a z move in latis case. Aeros best set is taunt sr for alt-less HO imo and so ur move slots will be limited. Unlike the rest of s, aero doesn't actually switch into much. The moltres craze has died down and big burd is rare and krook is risky/stupid without aqua tail so I just don't think it is on the same level of versatility threat and utility as the rest of S

Tl;dr intimidate fucks shark up and spikes doesn't fit on HO v well outside of froslass is subpar so a drop is warranted and aero has much more obvious limitations than the rest of s particularly when compared to its oras status

 

[Freeroamer]

I completely agree that Aerodactyl should be S Rank in this metagame. It gives so much to any build that makes use of it between incredible speed, convenient typing and the ability to customise it to fit exactly what your team needs. It’s traditional best responses (Pert/Seis) have become less splashable as the metagame has gone on, and even if there is a counter on the other side, more often than not Aero still gets its job done, it’s not a breaker after all. I just always feel super comfortable building and piloting Aerodactyl builds compared to a lot of other structures because the ability to always offer me speed control without being locked plus a choice from coverage/longevity/pursuit support/stealth rock gives me more freedom with my other team members as I’ve got essential bases covered right away while being able to customise it to fit exactly what my build needs, and it means when playing I’ve always got confidence that I can keep opposing offensive threats checked even if my primary option for dealing with them is forced to take damage. It’s really important to understand that it will always do that for you without needing to be locked into moves, while you will always be able to add more to it’s role depending on what your team needs.

It’s true that Aero doesn’t outright counter much, but I’m not using it to wall threats, it’s just an absolutely fantastic fallback to have which allows you to approach the game more aggressively, while also giving you other perks. If I could only use one mega for the rest of my UU games in USUM it would be Aero hands down, Altaria is a fine mon but I genuinely think Aero is that good. You’ve seen how it conforms to a lot of things people expect from their S Rank threats, being versatile, able to fit on different team styles etc... I can only speak for my experiences but for me Aero is the best mega to build and play with in this tier for what you can do with it, and as such deserves to be in S.

 

[crucify]

I mean yes, Aero does seem more splashable and alot better as of recently, but I feel like your post was more describing why it shouldn't move up instead. It's still a good mega and a great A+ mon in the tier, but S is a little high for it. Aero does have it's strong suites in being able to check Moltres, (sometimes) check trap Latias and Celebi, as well as even function as a rocker in some scenarios. It can be used on many building styles, from BO to Stall, so it is deserving of A+ rank indefinitely.

However, it lacks the utility and defensive prowess, as well as the numerous successful sets that the other S ranks have. Altaria has a dragon dance set and a bulky set, which both can be used on more then one playstyle. Scizor and Latias also both have numerous successful sets that truely make them meta defining. Meta Defining is what basically an S rank represents, and Mega Aero, while really good, falls short of that. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask any of us in the UU Simple Questions Simple Answers thread, and we'll be happy to help!

Again I might be wrong but THE REBUTTAL
Ok that's one thing that I didn't consider is the different types of sets that can be ran by the other S rank mons, which is now that I think about it, is probably the best argument on why it should not rise.
However, when you go to OU and look at S rank, Ash-Gren has 1/2 sets that make it S rank (specs and waterium z). Now I'm not saying that Aero is as potent as the monster that is Ash Gren, but as an abstract point Ash Gren is S rank with only all out offensive sets, which is different from the other S rank mons (Lando, Heatran, and Magearna) which can run a variety of sets on a variety of playstyles which is the same case here with Mega-Alt, Scizor, and Lati.
So there's two points with this 1. Potency and 2. Difference in Viability Ranking policy
So for Potency, I already stated it's not Ash Gren level, but I think it's potency cannot be denied with team support like Freeroamer stated, which is also the case for Gren but enough about that dude. The role compression and overall what Aero brings to the team is different, but comparable to the other S rank mons. And another thing, isn't the fact that Aero can run the same offensive set on those different playstyles it is ran on also indicative of its viability? Like you know what it is going to do, and it is still a threat, and still fits on those teams.

And for Viability Ranking Policy (taken form the first page)
"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal. A+ and A have room for other meta defining threats that may not either: affect the meta, be easy to fit on teams, have room for breaking through checks, or have versatility that the S ranks do"
Top of the top, incredibly dominant are both true of Aero, maybe not to the extent of sciz or altaria, but those mons are broken and the top two mons of the tier. And for Lati I think it is comparable, but they do different things. It affects the meta, is easy to fit on teams, and can run different sets to break through checks. I already touched on the versatility, which I said before is the argument against the rise, but I think that it is versatile enough with the ability to run different sets and get up rocks, and the other points like the Gren comparison and being able to run the same set and still fit on different teams sort of help the versatility point. So with versatility being the main argument imo (with potency probably being the second), I think all of the other things that Mega Aero does overshadows it being less versatile than the other S rank mons, and it belongs in S rank.

 

[SacredLatias]

Again I might be wrong but THE REBUTTLE
Ok that's one thing that I didn't consider is the different types of sets that can be ran by the other S rank mons, which is now that I think about it, is probably the best argument on why it should not rise.
However, when you go to OU and look at S rank, Ash-Gren has 1/2 sets that make it S rank (specs and waterium z). Now I'm not saying that Aero is as potent as the monster that is Ash Gren, but as an abstract point Ash Gren is S rank with only all out offensive sets, which is different from the other S rank mons (Lando, Heatran, and Magearna) which can run a variety of sets on a variety of playstyles which is the same case here with Mega-Alt, Scizor, and Lati.
So there's two points with this 1. Potency and 2. Difference in Viability Ranking policy
So for Potency, I already stated it's not Ash Gren level, but I think it's potency cannot be denied with team support like Freeroamer stated, which is also the case for Gren but enough about that dude. The role compression and overall what Aero brings to the team is different, but comparable to the other S rank mons. And another thing, isn't the fact that Aero can run the same offensive set on those different playstyles it is ran on also indicative of its viability? Like you know what it is going to do, and it is still a threat, and still fits on those teams.

And for Viability Ranking Policy (taken form the first page)
"S Rank will be the top of the top, incredibly dominant Pokemon who don’t really have any equal. A+ and A have room for other meta defining threats that may not either: affect the meta, be easy to fit on teams, have room for breaking through checks, or have versatility that the S ranks do"
Top of the top, incredibly dominant are both true of Aero, maybe not to the extent of sciz or altaria, but those mons are broken and the top two mons of the tier. And for Lati I think it is comparable, but they do different things. It affects the meta, is easy to fit on teams, and can run different sets to break through checks. I already touched on the versatility, which I said before is the argument against the rise, but I think that it is versatile enough with the ability to run different sets and get up rocks, and the other points like the Gren comparison and being able to run the same set and still fit on different teams sort of help the versatility point. So with versatility being the main argument imo (with potency probably being the second), I think all of the other things that Mega Aero does overshadows it being less versatile than the other S rank mons, and it belongs in S rank.

How does dactyl break through its checks? Its most prominent checks rn in the meta are scizor (offensively) and slowbro (defensively), both mons it has issues getting past, especially slowbro. It also is limited in its options, and lacks the appropriate stab coverage that your example ash gren has. Ash Greninja is so incredibly threatening because its immense power, and its impeccable water/dark stab. It hits every pokemon in the game at least neutrally except breloom and tapu bulu, which are both lampooned by ice beam and the occasional set carrying gunk shot (its outlandish in concept, but quite effective in practice if you dont need spikes). It loses quite hard to hippo if it isnt carrying aqua tail, and most sets cant carry that because ice fang is necessary for mons like gligar, steel types like mega aggron and mega steelix are given free turns versus it because of a lack of u-turn, and it is walled by some of the bulkier water types in the tier like alomomola and suicune.

Is it deserving of a spot as an S rank imo? Nah chief, it has issues with quite a few prominent pokemon. Is it still a A+ mon however? Absolutely, Mega Dactyl can be a nightmare for offense, and it has quite acceptable bulk and roost for good survivability.

 

[crucify]

How does dactyl break through its checks? Its most prominent checks rn in the meta are scizor (offensively) and slowbro (defensively), both mons it has issues getting past, especially slowbro. It also is limited in its options, and lacks the appropriate stab coverage that your example ash gren has. Ash Greninja is so incredibly threatening because its immense power, and its impeccable water/dark stab. It hits every pokemon in the game at least neutrally except breloom and tapu bulu, which are both lampooned by ice beam and the occasional set carrying gunk shot (its outlandish in concept, but quite effective in practice if you dont need spikes). It loses quite hard to hippo if it isnt carrying aqua tail, and most sets cant carry that because ice fang is necessary for mons like gligar, steel types like mega aggron and mega steelix are given free turns versus it because of a lack of u-turn, and it is walled by some of the bulkier water types in the tier like alomomola and suicune.

Is it deserving of a spot as an S rank imo? Nah chief, it has issues with quite a few prominent pokemon. Is it still a A+ mon however? Absolutely, Mega Dactyl can be a nightmare for offense, and it has quite acceptable bulk and roost for good survivability.

Adressing the Gren point, I was not literally comparing the two as I said in the post. (And as an aside you didn't mention Tapu Fini, probably the most common counter right now that does resist both stabs, and Pex which it has to rely on hax to break through without support, and if you use gunk shot I think that that is just cheese to win a matchup that is not worth dropping spikes for, but as I said before, enough about that mon)

In my original post I already talked about the counters to it, and as Freeroamer said its primary function is not as a breaker, but it has room to break through checks that is customizable according to the team that it is being ran on. True, it can't break through bulky waters, and the steels can switch in easily until they get weakened and can't switch into eq. So sure, it needs help countering literal hard counters to the mon, and the fact that those mons are prominent have the effects of 1. You are going to have a counter/something to switch in to them and 2. They are prominent because they check a number of common threats, so naturally you might have something on your team like an SD Terrakion that appreciates those mons being weakened, and can also wallbreak for Aero. And the same can be said about the other S ranks, yes they have tools that can help break through them but so does Aero, and the implication that if Aero is missing a coverage move and struggles with a mon as a result can be said for the other S rank mons movepools. If Lati has no thunder walled by empoleon (but just trap it oh wait that's team support), no hpf it struggles with steels, if you both without roost/a stab/calm mind that unlocks other weaknesses. Sciz without quick attack is walled by moltres/heatom, without knock is pretty walled by doublade. Altaria with no refresh/facade loses to stall (assuming it has an unaware mon), no fire move gets checked by amoonguss, ferroseed, and bronzong (which I agree should rise to B), and without EQ it loses to Agg/Lix cause fire blast bounces off (assuming they aren't weakened OH wait thats team support). Pokemon become prominent because they help with the top threats of the metagame (or are a top offensive threat), which Aero happens to be, and a S rank threat at that.

So I will go back to my main points, it does not have a equal in what it brings to team at the level that it does it. It is extremely splashable right now, fits on many playstyles (which is honestly the driving force behind me making this nom, because that impressed me a lot, and with the same set too damn) and is easy to teambuild with. And I believe that it has enough ability to break through checks and versatile enough as to keep those two things from preventing Aero from being S rank.

This will probably be my last post on this topic, if someone else wants to chip in on either side they obviously can, but I think that all of the main compelling arguments for both the Rise to S and Stay in A+ sides were stated well, therefore I will turn it over to the Viability Council to decide whether or not for Aero to rise.

 

[Moutemoute]

Aight, time to give my thought on some nominations

Drop to A- / B+

Although the metagame isn't kind with Mega Sharpedo with threats such as Nasty Plot Infernape & Nasty Plot Lucario or solid checks like Krookodile or Rhyperior, I do believe that Mega Sharpedo is still a premier threat which can tears apart some teams. The fact that some stall now run SpD Pyukumuku means Mega Sharpedo can threaten them pretty effectively since Alomomola is most of the time the Pokemon which is replaced. Thanks to this trend, Mega Sharpedo is able to pressure Stall better than before by being able to 2HKO Pokemon such as Quagsire or Gligar thanks to Crunch and Ice Fang. Even max defense Mega Altaria can't switch on Mega Sharpedo because Adamant Ice Fang is almost all the time a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks up. I do not think Mega Sharpedo is less threatening or effective in this metagame than before.

Rise to S

Once again I disagree with this nomination. Mega Aerodactyl is a great Pokemon but it has in my opinion one of the worst 4 MSS in the tier. You would it to have Stone Edge, Earthquake, Aqua Tail or Ice Fang, Pursuit, Roost, Taunt etc.. Like there is a lot of options and I find that whatever its moveset is there is always something missing. Even if this Pokemon can do a lot of things it suffers of this syndrome where you’d want him to be able to do anything when he can’t. Mega Aerodactyl is definitively not a S rank Pokemon, it's strictly worse than Latias, Mega Altaria and far beyond Scizor's viability or effectiveness

Drop to A-

Togekiss is in the shadow of Mega Altaria. It's still a good Pokemon but it doesn't shine as much than before for sure. A drop is legimitate.

Ranked C-

Stoutland is for sure a niche Pokemon but it has its niche and it's probably one of the best Sand Rush abuser you can get in Underused. Even if it has to run Jolly in order to outspeed some Choice Scarf users such as Infernape or Latias, the fact that both of them are less and less played with this item makes Stoutland's better since it can abuse of its Adamant nature.

Ranked C-

While Comfey isn't the best Pokemon you can opt for, I definitively think that Triage is on its own enough to justify Comfey's niche. Thanks to Triage, Comfey is able to pressure some threats like Mega Sharpedo, Choice Scarf Krookodile/Hydreigon but also Mega Altaria which is always a good thing. It's a pretty cool Pokemon in the late game. It requires support to deal with common threats like Amoonguss, Tentacruel, Scizor and Steel-types in general but overall I feel like this Pokemon is as good if not better than some C- rank. Calm Mind Comfey is an effective Late Game Sweeper in my opinion thanks to Calm Mind and Triage.

I've been using this set recently :

Comfey @ Big Root
Ability: Triage
EVs: 144 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Enough speed to cripple 70 BS +Speed Pokemon Giga Drain to pressure Water-types and things like Swampert and Rhyperior. Hidden Power [Fire] to catch Scizor on the switch-in. This set may be improve for sure with things like Taunt or Taunt + Synthesis which allows Comfey to pressure Stall and Blissey more effectively. Pixie Plate / Expert Belt are both viable items too in my opinion (even Babiri Berry).

That's it for today, thank you for taking the time to read me !

 

[Dreadfury]

A few thoughts, especially since I've been playing around with Screens a lot as of recently:

Togekiss from A to A-: Agree

I wouldn't say it's as simple as "just use Mega Altaria bro," but Togekiss is caught in a massive crossfire at the moment; teams have been all but required to develop increasing amounts of both defensive and offensive counterplay to Mega Altaria over time and more often than not these very same things cover Togekiss phenomenally well. Togekiss has all of Mega Altaria's weaknesses and several others to boot and doesn't have all of its coveted resists either. Togekiss obviously has a few niches over its main competition (particularly on sets abusing the dreaded yellow magic), but with Mega Altaria being so incredibly versatile and dangerous right now it's really hard to justify using Togekiss over it.

Mega Aerodactyl from A+ to S: Disagree

Mega Aerodactyl is amazing. Few if any who play UU even a remotely decent amount can deny how useful it can be on a variety of different archetypes. However, I don't think it quite has the tools to be an S-rank threat. It's nowhere near as versatile as anything in S right now, and as a result it finds itself being beaten by most of the same stuff regardless of its set (and Scizor being as good as ever definitely doesn't help it in this regard). Sometimes it seriously wishes it could hit harder; it's cursed with a lot of good coverage options that juuuust lack the damage output to push it over the top. Saying it isn't quite worthy of an S-ranking isn't really downplaying how good it is - A+ is still phenomenal - but putting it in S would massively oversell its many qualities that, while amazing, aren't Scizor, Latias, Mega Altaria, or even old Hydreigon levels of amazing.

Mega Sharpedo from A to A- or B+: Heavily Disagree

Other Offensive archetypes are popping up here and there and are making a name for themselves pretty quickly, but I really don't think the shark has gotten any worse. Yeah, it has a bit of a rough time against NP Infernape/Lucario; a lot of things do; that hasn't negatively impacted other absurdly-powerful offensive threats like Terrakion to a significant degree either, though. Against archetypes that can't effectively revenge kill it Mega Sharpedo is still just as effective at lategame cleaning as it's always been. It requires a bit more support to function than some other offensive threats in this tier, but its current ranking is pretty indicative of this. Mega Sharpedo shouldn't drop anytime soon; Spikes Offense is still a very, very good playstyle.

Aurorus/Sandslash to Unranked: Disagree

Aurora Veil still offers something unique to the tier; it's not really completely outclassed by Screens, so even though those Screens playstyles are really starting to pick up some steam this duo still has some value both defensively and offensively for its corresponding HO archetype. Veil isn't completely unviable and until it is I feel like these two should remain ranked.

And on the topic of offensive playstyles, I've been experimenting a lot with Screens teams as of recently given all the hype for them and I'd like to argue in favor of all these nominations under the same banner:

Feraligatr to B, Xatu and Venomoth to C-, Barbaracle to C+, and Linoone to C: Strongly Agree

First off, Feraligatr has no place in B-. It is arguably the poster child for Screens Offense and for good reason; it sets up on everything using its great defensive typing and good bulk pushed even further by dual screens support, and after picking up two or three boosts absolutely nothing barring Unaware users and maybe Mega Aggron (who gets chipped away at anyway) are particularly safe from its rampage. Being a sweeper that resists Bullet Punch while also being neutral to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave whilst hitting as obscenely hard as it currently does is a very, very coveted trait to have on a team with such limited defensive utility; in an odd sense I consider Gatr pretty comparable to Mega Gyarados in OU in that its defensive typing offers something extremely useful against threats that would give other sweepers - and in that sense most of its potential teammates - trouble. Rise this thing all the way to B; hell, if this playstyle keeps up it could be a candidate for B+.

Xatu offers enough of a niche over its primary competition in Azelf to warrant being ranked; I'd argue it could probably be worthy of even C or C+ but we'll take some baby steps with this one. While Xatu is alive and around you effectively can't get rid of its Screens once they're up, it almost always gets at least one Screen up because of how incredible Magic Bounce is for it, and it offers a slow U-turn that Azelf simply cannot. Ranking it a little closer to Azelf (but still behind it as Azelf has other sets at its disposal) seems pretty reasonable.

I'm probably massively overrating Venomoth, but I think extremely highly of it at the moment and while I'm content with it just being ranked again in the first place I'd like to make an argument for as high as C+. Venomoth has the unique combination of an excellent boosting move, Sleep Powder, a Toxic immunity, and STABs that both shred most would-be Sleep Powder switchins and have incredible neutral coverage when factoring in Tinted Lens. Sleep Powder's accuracy isn't the best thing in the world, unfortunately, but if you manage to land the move (it's more likely than hitting a Focus Blast) you've effectively removed something from play before you've even started boosting up; with a +1 Savage Spin-Out you're extremely likely to remove something else from play too. It can set up on many Mega Altaria sets with relative ease and it always outpaces Mega Altaria assuming both have equal boosts, regardless of the latter's investment. With Screens up it can set up on a huge portion of the tier and the extra bulk from said Screens gives it more room for bad luck with Sleep Powder misses or, potentially, even more Quiver Dance boosts. If Venomoth picks up two or more Quiver Dance boosts - something extremely possible on these kinds of teams - then good luck beating it without a really strong priority user. It also has pretty good defensive synergy with stuff like Feraligatr, among other HO staples, as the two can resist the most common priority in Bullet Punch (Gatr) and Vacuum Wave (Venomoth). It was previously ranked in this tier but I noticed that it didn't come with any replays; maybe I can provide some?

Venomoth replays ft. a replay that showcases every single thing Xatu can do

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-934856186

Venomoth puts the Primarina to sleep, sets up on the switch into Beedrill, blows the Z-move on it (that's the only way it would've OHKOed at +1), and my opponent forfeits right then and there because everything remaining couldn't threaten Venomoth while it could almost definitely OHKO or set up another Quiver Dance on the entirety of his remaining team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-934846370

Xatu gets a Thunder Wave off on the Starmie and then proceeds to get the Screens up thereafter. After it dies Venomoth uses that opportunity to force the Starmie out, set up a Quiver Dance, OHKO my opponent's only means of actually revenge killing it with the Z-move, put the Manectric to sleep, set up a second Quiver Dance on it, and even break past his Cobalion even though it's a would-be wall courtesy of the Screens preventing the 2HKO from Iron Head. The Venomoth spread I was running had 176 SpA which was stupid on my part (that used to be viable but is now outdated) as it actually mattered against the Haxorus; a 252 SpA Venomoth always OHKOs it but this spread has a chance to barely miss out on that OHKO. The Poison didn't really matter as at that point I had a very healthy Linoone, Feraligatr, and Mega Altaria in the back, although getting the guaranteed OHKO on Haxorus would've been really nice as at that point Venomoth actually would've 6-0'd him.

Barbaracle has a niche as a pretty decent stallbreaker over its main competition on Screens teams in Feraligatr and that niche is actually pretty damn useful. Grass Knot is boosted by Tough Claws so it actually does a pretty hefty amount to a would-be Quagsire switchin, although it still has a little bit of a hard time against Pyukumuku. I'm not completely sold on it yet but I'm pretty confident that a rise to C+ is fair enough.

Linoone loves Screens support. It was already excellent on Aurora Veil teams and it's excellent on these teams too. +6 STAB E-Speed is a bitch to deal with. I don't have much more to say about it.

And to conclude this with a nomination of my own...

I nominate Rhyperior from B to B+

I'd argue that Rhyperior's niche as a Stealth Rock setter that can severely pressure most Defoggers has become a little more useful as of recently; the current most relevant strong Water types that seek to force Rhyperior out with the threat of a 4x effective hit seriously detest getting hit by a Toxic on the switch, while its more defensive checks are on somewhat of a decline right now due to the rise in hard-hitting offensive playstyles that can brute-force their way past them. The metagame shifting away from some of its best checks, thus letting it get its Rocks up more freely, isn't on its own enough to warrant a rise to such a high rank; however, the rise in Screens teams allows Rhyperior to flex its good physical bulk and ability alongside its excellent offensive typing in a different manner, and it's this newfound role Rhyperior can play combined with its tried-and-true Stealth Rock sets that in my opinion makes Rhyperior worth considering for a rise. With Screens support Rhyperior can stomach some very powerful super effective hits and get a Rock Polish boost off; this combination makes it a surprisingly decent Weakness Policy user, allowing it to act like a pseudo Double Dancer. While it's still painfully slow even at +2 - it's outsped by most relevant Scarfers - it has a niche over stuff like Rock Polish Cobalion (or Terrakion although that set's a bit more inconsistent in this meta) courtesy of its Ground typing and its massive Attack stat. The Ground typing gives it a crucial Electric immunity as well as the coveted STAB EdgeQuake combo, and should it grab a Weakness Policy boost - something very manageable thanks to Screens+Solid Rock - its Attack stat exceeds Terrakion's and absolutely dwarfs Cobalion's. There's very little in the tier that can stomach its EdgeQuake+Megahorn combo at +2. Rhyperior still has its exploitable weaknesses, but in the current meta those weaknesses are looking a little bit more difficult to exploit than in the past. Even if Rhyperior ultimately doesn't deserve the rise to B+ I still think folks should explore its Rock Polish+WP set somewhat on the trending Screens teams, since it offers some rather unique defensive utility that most teams of this nature lack.

Anyway, those are all my thoughts on the current noms. I'm interested to see what other folks' thoughts on the current trends are as well, and I'm definitely interested in hearing some feedback regarding what might be a very controversial nomination in Rhyperior.

 

[Hilomilo]

Hi friends! It's been a while since I've made an actual nomination post, and I wanted to sneak some stuff in for the slate of this next update (which should be out in a week or less) since there are a few things I'd like to talk about that no one has brought up yet. Enjoy!

Rises

Swampert B -> B+
Swampert provides a lot of really nice utility and is definitely one of the better current options for defensive rockers. Its STAB combination allows it to apply pressure to the majority of the tier's good entry hazard removers, even threatening to wear Hydreigon and Blastoise down well with Toxic + its moderately strong EQ (in Blastoise's case). It also matches up really well against opposing entry hazard setters and can do a lot for teams with its solid defensive utility, countering Aero, checking stuff like Krook and Doublade, and being able to handle our two most used Electric-types super well thanks to walling Rotom's STAB combo and Mane almost always opting to run HP Ice > Grass for Gligar. Both the offensive and defensive value of Pert's typing in addition to its other little perks (Roar and Ice Beam can be great tools if you fit them) are currently valuable enough for me to believe B is underselling it.

Mega Steelix B+ -> A-
Steelix is another Pokemon that I find to have a great typing for the current meta. Although it isn't the sturdiest Electric-type check, just having a Ground-type Pokemon in the back to dissuade Rotom and Manectric from freely clicking Volt Switch is super valuable and keeps the opponent on their feet. It also fully takes advantage of its Steel-typing and great bulk, checking a good amount of really important threats like Scizor, Latias, Altaria, Shark, Doublade, etc. Its solid STAB combo also keeps it from inviting in most stuff that can offensively take advantage of it barring like Moltres. The defensive utility of its typing alongside its ability to provide rocks and solid offensive pressure makes it an excellent role compression mon in the tier that currently provides enough utility to reasonably break the A ranks.

Suicune B+ -> A-
I'm less sure that this one should go through, but I still wanted to throw it out there because I think there's a lot to love about Suicune right now. I've seen CroCune sets receive more recent experimentation and I honestly find them to be super good in the current meta, allowing Suicune to actually utilize its defensive perks to blanket check decent portions of the meta, handling stuff like Aerodactyl, Scizor, and most bulky rockers much more reliably. It also responds nicely to a few of our recent trends, like Doublade's surge in usage, Hydreigon not being as omnipresent, Feraligatr emerging as a threat, and Empoleon decreasing in influence some. Solid mon that is definitely worth at least considering for a rise.

Drops

Florges B+ -> B
There was a time in the meta where Florges was solidly better than Sylveon, but at this point I don't think the meta rewards Florges's advantages as heavily for it to be a rank ahead of its competition. Kommo-o leaving increased Sylveon's ease of use a fair amount, while its ability to function as a better Wish passer than Florges is really solid in a metagame with several great Steel-types that benefit from that support on balances, like Doublade, Aggron, Empoleon, etc. Florges's flexibility to run options like Toxic or HP Fire in its fourth slot can be super helpful, but I think the value of Wish passing is a fair trade off that puts Sylveon on an even playing field with it at this stage. While both are solid, they don't feel like staple defensive options in the same sense that Aggron and Alomomola do, which is why I'd put both in B.

Alolan Muk B -> B-
I struggled with this one for a bit but I'm pretty confident that Muk isn't really on the level of anything else in B. It's a super linear and predictable Pokemon that can be pretty easy to work around as a trapper. Racking up hazard damage by doubling around it a few times isn't too trying and often puts it in KO range of attacks from Primarina or Latias. Spikes and Screens HOs rising has also made it harder for Muk to do its job, while AV Bisharp emerging as competition and getting a fair amount of usage contributes as well. It's still fine, but doesn't perform as well or have as valuable a niche as anything else in B imo.

B- -> C+
I like Bewear a lot and think it's a really unique Pokemon in the tier, but I also find it hard to justify over other Fighting-types that provide better tools for the current meta. Fluffy is a really cool niche on paper but is pretty hard to capitalize on given that most physical attackers still beat Bewear. Altaria's rise to stardom and the better typings, Speed tiers, and overall utility its competition in Infernape, Cobalion, and Terrakion provide all just make me feel like its worth in the tier is better represented by a C+ ranking. Chesnaught is pretty bad and struggles to do its job considering it can't do much to most removers and also invites in a huge amount of extremely threatening Pokemon to just leave with free turns. Infernape, Celebi, and Altaria all becoming more and more popular also hurts it a lot. Zygarde is still a scary breaker but Spikes is no longer uncontested as the tier's best option for HO, and both its STABs are really easy to take advantage of once locked into by a pretty wide selection of top mons in the tier. It's also hard compensating for its weaknesses in the teambuilder since its lack of any defensive utility keeps you from being able to utilize the perks its typing should have, while also complicating the ability to use other Ground- or Dragon-types which could alternatively provide much more utility overall.

C -> C-,

C- -> UR
Just a few housekeeping nominations I think could go through for the lower rankings. Articuno still has a solid niche on some stalls, but I think its viability is harmed by Empoleon falling off a bit while it also is still super niche compared to even the other bulky stuff in C, like Pyukumuku and Umbreon. Veil mons still have a niche but I think C- suits them well when their archetype competes so heavily with both Spikes and Screens, which are much more widely used and proven right now. Gastrodon doesn't really have a tangible niche in the tier and only really warrants use in super specific situations. It can come in on Nidoking decently but otherwise it's usually outperformed as a special wall by Blissey or as a bulky Water or Ground by really any other Pokemon that fills either niche. Metagross hasn't been used seriously since before USM and has struggled for a proven niche ever since its AV set became outdated. It has no particularly outstanding tool to help it out in the metagame, and while its offensive rocks and CB sets both work, they feel inferior overall to several other options, like Cobalion and Scizor, which can provide a lot more than Metagross. I just don't see a niche worth a ranking for it anymore.

I may have stepped on some toes with a few of these nominations, but I hope you guys enjoyed reading! As I said before, the update should be out within the next week, so let's keep up the great discussion in the meantime (be sure to sneak in any last noms if you've got them!). Thanks for reading!

 

[Moutemoute]

I've seen that some players would like to drop Lucario from B+ to B and I would like to explain why in my opinion it's a mistake.
Lucario is probably one of the scariest stallbreaker to face thanks to its great stats and good offensive typing. Thanks to Nasty Plot, Lucario is able to pressure a lot of Pokemon such as Mega Altaria, Sylveon, Bisharp, Mega Aggron but also Krookodile, Hydreigon, Cobalion, Mega Sharpedo or Terrakion thanks to Vacuum Wave. Even if its bulk isn't the best of all, it allows it to check some threats such as Scizor or Bisharp but also Dark-types like Dark Pulse from Hydreigon or Knock Off from Krookodile. However, I'm not here to talk about how good Nasty Plot Lucario is because it's a well known set. Indeed, I would like to highlight how good its Swords Dance set is in the current metagame.

SD Lucario is an insanely dangerous powerhouse and its the most common set of Lucario at the moment.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified / Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch

This set of Lucario is in my opinion the reason it should stay in the B+ rank. Thanks to Swords Dance and Life Orb, Lucario is able to pressure Stall (and bulky cores / archetypes) really hard because Close Combat has a great chance to 2HKO Quagsire while Ice Punch is a guaranteed OHKO on Gligar. Ice Punch also allow Lucario to pressure Mega Altaria which is great. While E-Speed struggles to beat things like Cobalion or Krookodile, it's able to deal a lot of damages to Latias, Hydreigon, Infernape, Moltres or Mega Manectric (even after Intimidate). Close Combat hits super hard after a Swords Dance which allows Lucario to pressure even Pokemon which resists its STAB such as Specs Primarina which can't handle a +2 Close Combat after rocks. With the recent thrends in Stall with Pyukumuku > Alomomola, Lucario became even more dangerous.

 

[Minimizing]

This is literally my first post ever and I feel like I might get a lot of crap for it but I think Weezing should rise from UR to C- or C. This is because it has a niche as the only true check/counter to Altaria-Mega, which can easily be considered one of the biggest threats in UU. Because of Weezing's access to levitate Altaria can't hit Weezing with earthquake. Also Sludge Bomb does well over 50% to any offensive variant while at the same time being able to be pressure Altaria by the threat of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic Spikes. Offensive Altaria has to dd 3 times just to be able to 2 hit ko Weezing
(+3 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Weezing: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) while also taking (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 164-194 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) huge damage from Weezing. Against the standard UU support set weezing also does enough damage where Altaria can't outstall weezing (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria-Mega: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO ) If there are already toxic spikes up or sludge bomb poisons Altaria then Altaria will not be able to outstall weezing and will die. The only way to stop this from happening is running max SPD and HP on support altaria but even then Weezing Pressures enough (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 116-140 (32.7 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO ) which leads to any free switch as altaria is forced to roost or use heal bell to get rid of it's status if Altaria has been poisoned. I know it is an extreme niche but I think Weezing might be worth it as it is a true counter to one of the greatest threats in UU.
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 88 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Toxic Spikes

 

[pokemonisfun]

This is literally my first post ever and I feel like I might get a lot of crap for it but I think Weezing should rise from UR to C- or C. This is because it has a niche as the only true check/counter to Altaria-Mega, which can easily be considered one of the biggest threats in UU. Because of Weezing's access to levitate Altaria can't hit Weezing with earthquake. Also Sludge Bomb does well over 50% to any offensive variant while at the same time being able to be pressure Altaria by the threat of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic Spikes. Offensive Altaria has to dd 3 times just to be able to 2 hit ko Weezing
(+3 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Weezing: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) while also taking (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 164-194 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) huge damage from Weezing. Against the standard UU support set weezing also does enough damage where Altaria can't outstall weezing (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria-Mega: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO ) If there are already toxic spikes up or sludge bomb poisons Altaria then Altaria will not be able to outstall weezing and will die. The only way to stop this from happening is running max SPD and HP on support altaria but even then Weezing Pressures enough (0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 116-140 (32.7 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO ) which leads to any free switch as altaria is forced to roost or use heal bell to get rid of it's status if Altaria has been poisoned. I know it is an extreme niche but I think Weezing might be worth it as it is a true counter to one of the greatest threats in UU.
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 88 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Toxic Spikes

Interesting and I've used Weezing myself because of the innovator Cynde but you don't really counter Altaria until it's Mega Evolved which is a big problem in many match ups. I pair Weezing with Hydreigon to try and force the issue.


And don't forget you do well vs stalls usually because Toxic immunity + nice hazards + Pain Split + burning Gligars.

 

[palkia246]

I barely ever do smogon stuff anymore but I wanted to weigh in on Feraligatr since I honestly think it could make the full jump to B+. It's made a huge name for itself on dual screens, which is taking the ladder by storm. It has almost perfect coverage and only really requires that bulky waters are chipped a bit to be a super formidable sweeper that doesn't require much support since it creates setup opportunities for itself pretty easily. It's obviously best on dual screens but puts in work in really any scenario and lacks a poor response to anything happening in the meta outside of really like Pyukumuku being more of a thing on stall. Maybe it's because i'm out of the loop but this thing seems pretty devastating and is certainly as good a Pokemon if not better than stuff like Nihilego and Starmie.

I guess I'd also like to throw out that Nihilego could maybe drop from B+? Terrakion, Rhyperior, and Mega Aerodactyl all compete with it a fair amount as Rock-types that all seem to provide more benefits atm, and it sorta feels like meta trends are tilting out of its favor some. It'll always be ruled over by Scizor, but other Steel-types are surging in usage, a ton of Ground-types are finding their places in the meta again, and AV Bish adding itself to the tier's collection of Pursuiters that give it a ton of trouble. It just feels harder to capitalize on its niches than before. Not totally sure it should drop though. Thanks for reading