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Hi people! Today I'm here to PROVE to you that Raticate is a version of Zangoose and should be moved up to B- from Unranked or AT LEAST to C+.
Comparisons:
#1 They have similar stats (Zangoose has slightly more HP but slightly less Spec Def. Raticate has more Speed but slightly less Attack)
#2 They both have status ailment boosting moves. (Zangoose has Toxic Boost, Raticate has Guts)
#3 They have the same typing (Normal)
#4 They have the same outcome of almost every situation.
Enter wall of calcs!
They both get 2HKOed by Mach Punch from both Hitmonchan and Gurdurr
136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 204-242 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raticate: 204-242 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
They both OHKO Hitmonchan
252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 304-358 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 420-495 (139 - 163.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They both get 2HKOed by Mespirit
0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 153-181 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage
0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raticate: 135-160 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
They both 2HKO Defensive Mespirit (well kind of)
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 243-286 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
I could do more calcs, but I don't see the point.
The upside though of the two, is that Raticate is merely burned, while Zangoose is toxic ed. This means that raticate has more longlivety when it comes to passive resistance, aka stall.
Thank yall for reading this, and I hope you agree to move the hated kanto rat up some notches!
I'm not sure what this is supposed to be telling me? Being an inferior version of a pre-existing Pokemon does not dictate said Pokemon getting ranked slightly below it, that'd lean closer to not getting ranked at all. Your calcs show that Raticate is unable to wallbreak as efficiently and that it's even more susceptible to priority than Zangoose is. If I wanted to rank Raticate itd be for its ability to outpace Oricorios and base 95's while being a marginally threatening attacker, notably hitting fast ghosts with Sucker Punch which is something Zangoose can't do, but that's not rly enough to sell the mon when it lacks properties that Zangoose has of being a more efficient wallbreaker that doesn't fold to Pokemon like Regirock because it can utilize the much more useful Close Combat. As for the burn vs toxic aspect - yeah I can agree that it's a neat perk over Zangoose but it's not any less vulnerable to priority or just being picked off in general. Longevity versus bulky teams isn't much when you still lack means of breaking through defensive staples like Regirock, defensive Jellicent, and Curse Quagsire which all have reasonable ways of maneuvering around it. There's plausibility in it getting ranked, but your reasons simply don't sell me that it should be ranked in the first place.
I'm sorry buddy but goose shouldn't be taking hits, it should be flat out murdering things which Your calculations proved and even still zangoose is still kind of a bad mid play between dodrio and shoutland. But at least has more power
There are unranked things with, "niches" but are often only good in a tiny slice of an area. Rat can out run base 90-95,s but so can other things that murder that speed tier also but have more uses
Shit worried about mach punch run adamant banded dodrio it takes less from mach punches and is faster anyhow
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm sure You'll get some decent rat results but You'll do better with something else every time even if it's better than some C stuff, it's like blissely in ou. Yeah it can do stuff over chansey and is better than D trash. But nah fuck that it doesn't have a niche, shouldn't be ranked. Its misleading information at that point saying it has a metagame place
Audino's a mon not often discussed by people, and understandably so: being a cleric makes it's primary function to help it's teammates rather than take down opponents itself, and as a result it rarely takes the spotlight. So I'm dedicating this post to why I think this cleric is worthy of the A-ranks.
For one, it's easily the best cleric in the tier, with access to Wish, Heal Bell and even Regenerator, giving it plenty of opportunities to switch in. It's capacity for team support also makes it pretty easy to fit onto teams, and while it isn't inherently versatile in it's sets, players can often be left guessing whether it's running Toxic, Heal Bell or Encore, threatening bulky offense/stall/setup respectively and ruining game plans when the unexpected option is revealed. In terms of the meta, it's changed in Audino's favour since it's last rank change in October, what with Guzzlord dropping (who Audino walls quite well), Lilligant's ban (as it could use Heal Bell variants as setup fodder) and Hitmonchan's decline. Audino's great bulk and ample recovery allow it to keep teammates alive seemingly indefinitely, often putting opponent teams at a stalemate. Here are some PULT replays showing this:
That being said, with the right breaker Audino can be threatened quite easily - but the fact that it needs a specific breaker and often a good prediction to take down this mon proves that preparations must be taken to defeat it, making this mon worthy of A- imo. Audino's a threat: not always because of what it can do to opponents, but instead what it can do for teammates.
Some other less significant noms:
Floatzel: B -> B-
In the current meta I feel like Floatzel has a quite a few issues which have reduced it's relevancy, and seeing as it gets hardly any tournament usage recently I don't think I'm alone in this regard. Floatzel's two main sets each have their separate problems: Bulk Up is walled or beaten by Mesprit, Gurdurr, Persian-A, Jellicent (who non-Crunch sets literally can't touch) and many other of the tier's bulky mons; and the Special set (the better of the two imo) faces immense competition from Persian-A due to their matching speed tiers, Ludicolo as a rain abuser and Simipour as a Water-type special attacker in general. Floatzel struggles to switch in due to it's poor defensive stats and when given momentum can't utilise it as effectively as the aforementioned three, with them having access to actual setup should the opponent switch out.
Bellossom: B- -> B
Pretty self-explanatory, Lilligant leaving removes Bellossom's most significant competition and gives people much more reason to use it. Also unboosted Moonblast 2HKOs Guzzlord which is nice.
Rampardos: D -> C-
Although a difficult mon to get into battle, Rampardos is insanely strong, 2HKOing most of the metagame with Head Smash and hitting would-be tanks like Gurdurr/Aggron with Zen Headbutt/Superpower respectively. It's seeing some tournament usage too, and while Scarf is obviously it's best set Band/LO are decent options (Banded Head Smash OHKOs bulky Jellicent). This mon's unparalleled Attack stat gives it a niche over other Rock-type breakers like Lycanroc, having much more immediate power: if Rampardos gets through to lategame healthy then the opponent more times than not is sacking a mon.
Admittedly I initially thought Shiftry was long deserving of a drop for some time now however my opinion has changed as of recent testing with it and I have enjoyed it quite a lot specifically with the prior mentioned AoA sets that have been getting increased usage along with other small alternative options such as going +Spe with Z-Low Kick allowing you to OHKO Stoutland/Kangaskhan also Z-Leaf Storm is also a solid option to nuke various threats such as a Knocked Off Gurdurr,Aggron,Qwilfish etc. Shiftry right now needs a lot more exploring into its movepool and sets it genuinely has a lot more going for it then one might expect.
Keep B
The points made against Floatzel are not entirely incorrect and is a solid post overall my issue however comes with the comparisons with the other Water Type Pokemon mentioned and Persian-A (?) it is true that Ludicolo and Simipour have there own advantages over Floatzel (Dual Typing/Bulk Ludicolo, Nasty Plot Simipour) but that is the comparison in a vacuum and if Floatzel could only pull off a Special set i'd probably overall agree with the points entirely however Floatzel has the ability to pull off solid Physical sets in Bulk Up which was also at least mentioned and Choice Band which is the more reliable of the two this actually allows Floatzel to choose which Checks and Counters it has and how to play around them. A similar case to the prior mentioned Shiftry, Floatzels actual viability really has not changed and is still a reliable Pokemon overall thanks to its diversity.
There were some nominations i had but with Lilligants ban im going to hold off and see how the meta develops however there is a Pokemon i do believe will be fine.
from C+ to B-
I have been using Jumpluff for about a month maybe two now and i genuinely find it just so enjoyable, it still has quite a few issues however the positives are still nice for a bump up to B-. Stating the obvious but Strength Sap is just so good and gives Jumpluff really solid longevity as well as being able to counter BU Gurdurr and actually is able to 1v1 Stoutland/Kanga from full which is hilarious but is solid for a pivot to not allow two strong breakers getting a free switch-in, as a Pivot it does so reliably thanks to whatever Filler option you pick typically either being Sleep Powder or Leech Seed thanks to both forcing a switch and allowing you to pick up momentum consistently alongside some pivot cores even Toxic is a reliable option atm thanks to the prevalence of Guzzlord and Regirock/Mudsdale. overall just a decent mon that is fits alongside the other B- mons nicely.
Lastly, With Lilligants ban there are a bunch of Pokemon that should move down due to there use being mostly tied to Lilli examples being Sensu currently in B+, Muk currently in C and Bouffalant currently in C-. Personally i do believe that both Muk and Bouf should just go unranked as i really dont see any reason to use either over other options however i am unsure where Sensu should go.
I agree with the noms from the last 2 but support floatzel staying and shifty to B is a stretch but man does it have some serious movepool options, I always assume it'll be Z hurricane but they sd and die a lot from being forced to sucker punch in my experience :/
Muk might wanna stay where at for a minute. Throw bouffant out of here sap sipper is it's only niche and I'd rather just use a better mon for damage and an alright grass switch in
shiinotic to C-
it's honestly super scary to switch into, it's always hard knowing its 4th move option; hp fire, spore, sap strength and I've been loving it with eject button to eat volt turn, spin, u turn, knock, earthquake, water/grass stab and trying to status, take little damage and bounce into a trapper/free set up mon then it comes in handy beating down guzzlord/gurdurr, non poison jab ape and etc.
it's a less bulky tangla that has some serious coverage with a better typing
Alright so here we go again. Now that the lilligant meta is done with (for now). I have a couple viability rankings i wanna make.
Oricorio Pom-Pom A+ -> A/A-
The only thing keeping pom pom at A+ was checking lilligant. Its honestly not that great anymore as it does not have great matchups against our best sweepers. Such as Lycanroc, Omastar, Carracosta, and Jynx. Now pom pom is still not a bad pokemon in general because it breaks stall excellently , beats Gurdurr , and can provide good utility to a team.
My second nom is Pom-Pom's hot sister
Oricorio Sensu B+ -> B-/C
This thing was and even better check to lilligant but it has even worse matchups against Carracosta and Omastar but its jynx matchup is a little better than Pom Pom because of revelation dance ghost STAB. . sensu still isnt a horrible pokemon to use it beats and but otherwise it isn't doing too much for your team. It doesnt even have a guranteed win versus Shiftry ,Gurdurr and Hitmonchan. both can easily predict when sensu is coming in. Otherwise it does the same as pom pom with breaking stall and being decent utility.
I disagree with a drop from both Oricorio as they still will find their way on teams to check the fighting types you mentioned above.
Also Primeape found its way on more teams again as a useful scarfer and they can reliably force it out, when it is locked into any move that isn't Stone Edge or can revenge kill it back with a Z-Hurricane, Lycanroc, Omastar and Carracosta are great mons, so is Jynx but they are for sure not the best sweepers right now in the tier and a Lilligant-less Metagame is too fresh to call for a drop of both yet. And even when they drop I would not drop them 2 entire SubRanks.
It's been a while but we had a suspect on so there I have an excuse. Votes are here.
e: akir did not vote for the reason that I am bad and thought the last name was him and HJAD wasn't voting, but he said he didn't feel too strongly about any nom that would've changed
Rises
Mudsdale A to A+
Abomasnow B+ to A-
Tangela B+ to A-
Silvally-Fairy B to B+
Bellossom B- to B
Mawile C+ to B-
Simipour D to C-
Rampardos D to C-
Shiinotic D to C-
Drops
Skuntank S- to A+
Persian-Alola A+ to A
Aggron A to A-
Poliwrath A- to B+
Drampa A- to B+
Dugtrio-Alola B+ to B
Silvally-Dragon B to B-
Absol B to B-
Spiritomb B to B-
Raticate-Alola B to B-
Shiftry B- to C+
Silvally-Water B- to C+
Musharna C+ to C
Bronzor C+ to C
Gourgeist-Super C to C-
Granbull C to C-
Exeggutor D to Unranked
Guzzlord S- to S or A+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom A+ to A/A-
Dodrio A to A+
Hitmonchan A- to B+
Kabutops A- to B+
Oricorio-Sensu B+ to B/B-/C+
Audino B+ to A-
Pinsir B to B+
Metang B to B+
Lurantis B to B+/A-
Floatzel B to B+ or B-
Kecleon B to B-/C+
Probopass C to C+/B-
Mr. Mime C to C+
Jumpluff C+ to B-
Toucannon D to C-
Natu C- to D/Unranked
Raticate Unranked to B-/C+
A couple of the rises were old discussion points that got cycled around 2 or 3 times before we finally went ahead (Mudsdale, Abomasnow) but for the most part just some solid meta shifts. We've seen Tangela, Mawile and Silvally-Fairy really pick up recently in PULT and with Guzzlord's drop, Bellossom losing its competitor really is that huge (although that alone won't make it better), and finally some random D rank mons aren't that bad I guess not much to say on them.
Skuntank and Persian got noticeably hit by Guzzlord's presence, I don't think they'll need to drop more just yet but it's clearly the best Dark-type we have right now. Drampa and Poliwrath also got hurt by its shift with competition for one and a Dark-type that just blows right through you with Draco for the other. Aggron has sort of shifted away from being a premier wallbreaker recently although this could easily turn around in an update or two. After that you just get to a lot of fairly mediocre mons we decided to push down for fairly basic reasons, a couple of them were hurt by Guzzlord (Silvally-Dragon, Gourgeist-Super, Exeggutor) but mostly we tried to reduce some of the bad things as they're now easier to distinguish.
From the rejected nominations, we were clearly pretty split on if Guzzlord should get out of S- along with Skuntank. Some people thought it was S worthy, some people didn't want it up there, so S- still sticks around as a monument to our inability to come to a conclusion. Hitmonchan also stuck around, I personally wouldn't mind this falling but its ability to check Guzzlord has made it slightly more desirable since that whole bandwagon took place here. Froslass Spikes are only getting better though so we'll see if it sticks around. Aside from those two, what we rejected were mostly fairly unfounded nominations that nobody really had any interest in. Dodrio isn't nearly A+ worthy, Pompom is still excellent, Kabutops works fine, Sensu works fine, all these mons were just fine where they were at and if you want real specifics then I can oblige but yeah not much to go on for like, all the drops.
This thread hella dead wtf. I'll revive it with some noms:
Unranked -> C+/B-: This thing should at least be C+ but looking at some of the barely viable garbage in that rank I think B- is honestly more appropriate for this mon at this point. Simisage shines in a meta where it doesn't face competition from fellow Grass type Lilligant thanks to a combination of an excellent speed tier, the ability to pressure common bulky Water types like Quagsire, Jellicent, and Lanturn, and nearly flawless coverage in this meta. Leaf Storm/Superpower/Rock Slide/Gunk Shot gives it supereffective coverage against the majority of the A rank mons and stuff like Eelektross still hates taking a max attack LO Superpower. Its typing gives it switchin opportunity against aforementioned bulky Water types as well as the common Mudsdale, so basically it's a really solid breaker that distinguishes itself well enough from the rest of the meta to deserve to be ranked at the very least.
A -> B+: I'm just going for a very steep drop here because to be A rank I think you need a degree of consistency that Persian just doesn't bring to the table. It rose as far as it did in a meta where Hitmonchan and Clefairy were on the decline and teambuilding was so tight that it was hard to take it into account. Now you don't even have to take it into account in teambuilding in many cases because in addition to Guzzlord being a top 3 PU mon that just happens to wall it to hell and back, Persian also dislikes the resulting increase in Silvally-Fairy and Dazzling Gleam Mesprit usage. Scarf Primeape also is extremely good and common right now, furthering Persian's struggle to break teams with its disappointing initial power and shallow movepool. Looking at this week's PUPL replays, literally every team has at least one of the aforementioned checks or another bulky Fighting type like Gurdurr. Persian is far from bad (B+ mons are still very solid!!), since it still has utility as a pivot and can still take advantage of stuff like defensive Froslass, but Persian is dependent on the right metagame context to be a top threat and that context simply is missing here.
A- -> B+: Feels like a spot in the A ranks is only justifiable for this thing when it hard counters Lilligant, and with that thing missing I feel a spot here is too generous when it necessitates great hazard control, which is simply pretty lacking in this tier. Staple mon on stall of course but it's not like stall is all that great right now anyway.
(fairy) B+ -> A-
Although it just got upranked in the most recent shift, I believe Silvally-Fairy is not only a great Defogger and utility pivot but also one of the very best setup sweepers in the tier right now, especially since Lilli is gone. The offensive SD+Flame Charge set is very splashable at the moment, being able to check and force out/set up in the face of some of the most common mons in the tier, such as Guzzlord and Sandslash-Alola. Being able to speed-tie with Scarf Primeape after a +1 Speed boost, KO Guzzlord unboosted, and having a high chance of KOing Victreebel, Skuntank and Sandslash-Alola after a Swords Dance boost and Rocks chip, while still being able to pivot out of unfavorable checks like Qwilfish and keeping momentum ongoing. To demonstrate, here's a replay vs. j0gurt showcasing how a well-played offensive Fairyvally 6-0s a perfectly viable team with great Fairy+Fire coverage while taking minimal damage from opposing pivots due to its great natural bulk.
B -> B+
While being generally less consistent and splashable than bulkier sweepers, Z-Me First Pinsir is one of the scariest late-game sweepers and is fairly seeing its usage increased due to its great speed tier which allows it to outspeed all relevant scarfers at +2, two great abilities in Moxie and Mold Breaker, and excellent coverage in the form of the increasingly useful STAB-Bug and EdgeQuake among other, more niche options. While it may have a hard time setting up against faster foes, and often fails to setup properly against physical walls like Mudsdale and Regirock, it just as often makes late-game cleaning an extremely easy chore. With Guzzlord being one of the premier mons in the tier, this once-niche sweeper is more relevant than ever and warrants a raise in my opinion.
B -> B-/C+
Recent drops, bans, and meta trends have unfortunately not been kind to Manectric, which sees its Scarf set struggling to make headways with its main target in the form of Lilli now gone and the rising usage of Guzzlord and Mudsdale rendering it irrelevant in many matchups. Due to a lack of viable sets, it greatly suffers from predictability which leads to it being outclassed as an Electric-move absorber by Lanturn, which is easier to fit on teams and has greater set variety. As a Scarf attacker it's simply outclassed not only by the commonly-used Primeape and Dodrio but also by niche Scarfers like Simisear and Simisage due to not only the Electric-type being less useful in general with Swanna dropping in usage, but also due to its failure to pressure its common switch-ins like Lanturn and Mudsdale with HP Grass. All in all, Manectric is simply not a viable choice nowadays in my opinion due to it being outclassed in all of its roles.
I also agree with
UR -> C+ and
A -> B+, however I disagree with
A- -> B+. While it still needs proper support to truly shine in any archetype, offensive sets are rightfully gaining popularity by the day and fitting well on many Balance/BO teams with their ability to take out Sandslash-Alola with HP Fighting and pressure anything that's weak to Freeze-Dry while also walling most mons that don't pack Rock-type coverage. With excellent natural bulk and good Special Attack and Speed, it's simply a great teammate and a top-tier BO mon as long as Rocks are out of the picture and still is the make-or-break on many stall and semi-stall teams, and therefore should remain A- in my opinion.
Simisear is nothing short of outstanding. It's too good to merely be A-. Nasty Plot + Firium Z nukes anything that doesn't resist after a boost, and +2 Focus Blast and Grass Knot provides solid coverage against Guzzlord and Jellicent respectively. Although it isn't as common, Z-Focus Blast or Z-Solar Beam can easily catch opposing Guzzlord's and Lanturn's off guard, enabling Simisear to break past the rest of the team. Another underrated set is Choice Specs, which also hits very hard without having the need to set up. Cryogonal further helps Simisear's case.
+2 252 SpA Simisear Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 714-840 (121.6 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Simisear Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Regirock: 398-470 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mudsdale: 492-580 (121.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 397-468 (106.1 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 482-568 (123.2 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord: 754-888 (116 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Carbink from C+ to B-
Unless Guzzlord is running Heavy Slam, Carbink is the best counter to Guzzlord - even better than Silvally-Fairy and Clefairy, both of whom get 2HKOed by Choice Specs Sludge Bomb. Carbink checks/counters many prevalent Pokemon including Froslass, Gurdurr, Kangaskhan, Oricorio-E, Dodrio, Stoutland, and others. It can run a viable Stealth Rock or bulky Calm Mind set, and can serve as a nice defensive option on many teams.
Drops
Liepard from C+ to C
Persian-Alola has kind of taken over Liepard's niche as a fast, late-game Dark-type Nasty Plot sweeper. That, alongside the abundance of Guzzlord and Scarf Primeape, makes its Nasty Plot set worse than it already was. As a weather setter, it is fine but I don't believe that it's enough to justify its current position.
Unless Guzzlord is running Heavy Slam, Carbink is the best counter to Guzzlord - even better than Silvally-Fairy and Clefairy, both of whom get 2HKOed by Choice Specs Sludge Bomb. Carbink checks/counters many prevalent Pokemon including Froslass, Gurdurr, Kangaskhan, Oricorio-E, Dodrio, Stoutland, and others. It can run a viable Stealth Rock or bulky Calm Mind set, and can serve as a nice defensive option on many teams.
Drops
Liepard from C+ to C
Persian-Alola has kind of taken over Liepard's niche as a fast, late-game Dark-type Nasty Plot sweeper. That, alongside the abundance of Guzzlord and Scarf Primeape, makes its Nasty Plot set worse than it already was. As a weather setter, it is fine but I don't believe that it's enough to justify its current position.
Don't really agree with these, or at least not for the reasons you mentioned. Carbink doesn't wall Guzzlord any better than other Fairy-types in practice because Heavy Slam is better than Sludge Bomb on every non-Specs set, and running a Pokemon that is otherwise vastly inferior to Regirock and Clefairy as far as SR setters go is simply not worth it. The reason Carbink is even ranked is because of its role on stall, where its ability to take on Drampa is greatly needed, but that playstyle is not good enough to warrant it a rise to the B ranks. I fully agree that Liepard's NP set is absolute dogshit, but that set has been bad and outclassed for a long time and I frankly don't recall ever seeing it in a serious tournament game. I also agree that its weather setter set is the reason for it to be ranked (maybe CB isn't awful but I haven't seen that in ages either), but looking at what's below C+ I think that's enough reason to keep it where it is. It has a solid, definable niche that isn't done much better by anything else in the tier, something that can't be said for pretty much everything below C+. Unless we decide to completely redo the lower rankings and kick out a ton of the C ranked mons that frankly do not have any reason to be used on 99% of all teams, C+ is fine.
Comparing Jellicent with other Pokémon in the A rank, it kind of doesnt fit there. It faces a lot of competition with other bulky Water-types, doesnt really have a good synergy with our more common Spikes users, with the Guzzlord drop it got another reliable switch-in to its wallbreaking set and it is much less splashable then the other pokémon. Also, its much less reliable as a spinblocker than it used to be, with offensive Hitmonchan sets seeing more usage and Cryogonal in the tier.
Kabutops A- -> B+
Kabutops is a niche spinner and while it is still reliable, its no longer the only good fast spinner in the tier, which is in my opinion the only thing that could keep it in the same rank as Victreebel, Simisear, Carracosta or Aggron.
edit: I dont know what does Kabutops do, so apparenty its not a scarfer that is used mainly for the utility of a fast and somewhat reliable Rapid Spin. I assume that there is another, better set that noone has ever seen, then? If this is the case, I apologize.
Cradily C+ -> C/C-
Cradily has just so much competition and is so passive. Being the only SR user that checks Water-types while also being able to wall Kangaskhan and Eelektross is good, but I'm not sure if that its enough for C+.
Musharna C -> Unranked
Its not necessary to drop this mon one subrank a time, there just isnt any reason to run it. CM Mesprit and Spiritomb completely outclass it. Even Duosion is better then Musharna.
Mr. Mime C -> Unranked
No notable niche. Mime has absolutely nothing over Alolan Raichu, Jynx and Mesprit.
Munchlax C -> Unranked
No notable niche. We have tons of bulky sweepers, for example Type: Null. Using this just for the special defense is like using AV Regice.
Pawniard C -> D/Unranked
Again, we have three other strong SD Sucker Punch abusers. Pawniard actually might be able to deter Defog, if you are desperate enough to use it, but i dont think this is a reason to keep it in C.
Drifblim C- -> Unranked
No notable niche. At all.
Simisear A- -> A: Disagree
Simisear is basically Alolan Raichu; there are some differences, but mostly they work in the same way, have similar coverage, beat similar mons, which is why i think they should be in the same rank. While Simisear definitely is good, its frail, quite weak when unboosted, somewhat reliant on the Z-move when you want it to wallbreak, it just has its flaws and its not as good, reliable or splashable as the pokémon in A rank.
Liepard C+ -> C (or lower): Agree
Liepard's NP set is absolutely irrelevant, its bad and also outclassed by Persian. Liepard's only niche is weather setter, but... what does it offer? Prankster weather+Encore? Volbeat has that too, and it also has decent bulk, useful defensive typing, slow U-turn to bring in your sweepers safely, it can even serve as a pivot/defogger on non-weather teams and its in C+. Even Froslass or Electrode can perform Liepard's role better as fast weather leads with Taunt.
Its not necessary to drop this mon one subrank a time, there just isnt any reason to run it. CM Mesprit and Spiritomb completely outclass it. Even Duosion is better then Musharna.
Musharna: You’re right in Mesprit outclassing this Pokemon in almost all senses. Musharna looks incredibly bad on paper and struggles versus most offenses but Musharna does have a neat little feature that Mesprit doesn’t have: Synchronize. You can send this Pokemon in on things like Regirock, Mudsdale, Gastrodon, almost everything that has toxic basically and pass a toxic onto your opponent for its own sweep later. PU tends to use toxic on Pokemon to beat setup sweepers and synchronize + heal bell support is amazing for beating your opponent down. I’ve been experimenting with Musharna because I, too, thought it was garbage and found it carrying its weight with this unconventional spread. This spread looks like a meme but it allows you to outspeed most Guzzlord and KO it with Z-twinkle tackle (People tend to switch Guzzlord hard into Musharna). Also, unlike Mesprit, Musharna has a form of recovery that really comes in handy. Pair it with something that has heal bell like Audino and this Pokemon can hold its weight versus most teams. Keep it ranked. It’s actually good and not as bad as people make it out to be.
Mr. Mime: Being a fairy type is its niche. Guzzlord is a big threat in PU and just the mere thought of being able to switch into your fairy makes your opponent second guess the move they want to click. Focus blast, Dazzling Gleam, and Psychic/Psyshock pretty much hits everything neutrally and Specs with healing wish/NP + Z-move can break balance teams easily. Mesprit can do what Mr. Mime does while having better bulk, but just having the fairy typing alone makes it so your opponent has to think whether Draco Meteor is worth clicking and that’s pretty substantial. Keep this mon ranked too.
I agree with Munchlax and Drifblim though those Pokemon are complete garbage and should be unranked just like you said.
Okay, I should have paid more attention to the noms regarding pokémon with no niches. Your Musharna set seems interesting, but I heavily disagree that Mime's Fairy typing is a reason to have it ranked.
I'll just recommend watching some replays with CM Mesprit and thinking: What would Mr. Mime do in this situation? The answer is: It would not lure that.. I would not kill this and this. The opponent would just directly switch in something because Mime can't do much damage and just kill it. Or he would sack something and then revenge kill it. The slight increase in Speed is barely noticeable: its a wallbreaker with the speed of Mesprit and bulk of Alolan Raichu. Does that not matter because it has a rare typing? Does that typing allow it to do something really notable?
There are two mons with strong Dragon-type STABs, the less common one is Drampa, currently in B+.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime: 173-204 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mime checks it well enough, although it is forced out if Drampa clicks the right coverage move. What about the more important pokémon, Guzzlord?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime: 151-178 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime: 226-266 (102.2 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guzzlord Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 210-247 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Guzzlord Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 222-262 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Every common Guzzlord set has a coverage move that OHKOs Mr. Mime. Imagine Stoutland and Aggron... how well does Aggron check Stoutland? You are right, Mr. MIme forces your opponent to think twice before clicking Draco Meteor/Z-Outrage. But checking one B+ rank mon... and preventing Guzz from spamming one of its STABs just should not be enough for a mon to be ranked.
You guys all knew this was going to happen. My fourth VR post on this mon. When it comes to ranking it, ignoring that time I wanted it to rise, we've got one win, one lose, so lets win this stock. (lul smash references)
Duosion: UR -> D
I think people are coming to realize that Duosion is better than Musharna, see (and like!), Skipkan's post. I don't want to go too into depth of everything Duosion does, since I've done that on multiple occasions, but Duosion is a setup mon that's immune to all the hazards and Toxic users running around the meta, meaning it is much harder to wear down, especially with Recover. This also lets Duosion use various Pokemon as setup bait that Musharna can't, such as Toxic Alolan Sandslash, Audino, Hitmonchan, and Lanturn. It also helps that Pokemon like Cryogonal are dropping down, which are perfect for setup bait. When Duosion was pushed down to UR it was seen as a bad setup mon, that was just clustering up the D-rank, and Calm Mind Mesprit gives it a lot of competition. However, with all the previously mentioned Specially Defensive mons running Toxic, Duosion has its niche as a bulkier alternative. Furthermore, it can have an easier time facing faster teams since Mesprit has to worry more about being Revenge Killed by Pokemon like Dodrio and Lycanroc, especially if it has been worn down. Guzzlord has also joined the tier, but the only thing it's changed for Duosion in my experience is that it gives Duosion more reason to run Signal Beam, which may suck at times I guess. But yeah, Signal Beam is a 3HKO on uninvested Guzzlord, meaning it can catch it on the switch. Guzzlord has also led to the rise of Pokemon like Silvally-Fairy, which make for great teammates for Duosion. Here are a couple of replays of Duosion sweeps from Room Tournaments and Ladder battles, with the first few being the more viable ones but the last ones still showing Duosion in action. Slight hax may apply, but didn't impact the games for the most part.
Bar Duosion, there are a couple other quick noms I want to make.
Ludicolo: B+ -> A-
Ludicolo is a very underrated sweepers, since it can clean up many matches with ease if it manages to get a Rain Dance up. It's also got the great STAB and coverage.
Type: Null: B+ -> A-
Type: Null is an amazing Special Defense wall, and while its Swords Dance set has lost a viability with all the Ghost Pokemon, U-turn is great with switching into an attack from Pokemon like Guzzlord and Aurorus and gaining momentum.
Simipour: C- -> B-/C+
I will continue to nom Simipour to rise because it is very underrated. It's got unresisted coverage, great Speed, and Nasty Plot. While it may not be on the same page as Simisear, it's still more than a mediocre choice, especially when compred to the other C- Pokemon.
Carrcosta: A- -> A
If you couldn't tell by now, I'm a big fan of setup Water-types, and Carracosta is no exception. If the opponent doesn't have something specific for it like a Quagsire or Tangela, but instead a generic Water-type check like Lanturn or Victreebel, Carracosta can break through teams. It can set up easily and is difficult to revenge kill thanks to its bulk, and even has Aqua Jet to make up for its low Speed.
Bellossom: B- -> B
If Bellossom can start setting up it can definitely put in a lot of work, being hard to reliably handle with its last slot options between Moonblast, HP Fighting, and Safeguard.
edit: Apparently Bellossom is already B but was just accidentally not marked as it on the VR.
While I'm too lazy to go into much detail about these, here are my opinions on previous noms.
Noms I agree with:
I'd Mr. Mime like to note mespit can't run Z-focus blast off dump and blow apart one of it's counter turn one, Z gleam on mespit isn't nearly as opening and yeah Your right any speed tier over base 80 gets an offensive niche if it does more damage with better set up and coverage. Mr. Mime is awesome when he works and just really scary and forces mid game plays that can cost a spinner and a wall if not careful vs
Since smogon takes no prisoners here is what I think
Guzzlord S- ---->S its min hp stat is better than anyone of his max stats in anyone other areas and Draco Meteor, dark pulse, heavy slam, fire blast, and sludge bomb/wave are deadly on specs set Guzzlord is great maybe ban worthy but should be in S rank with froslass and Mesprit.
Cryogonal stats good for the tier I think Cryogona should be in l A-, B+, or B I think Cryogonal should not be in the A+ tier because low Def and in the A+ tier it is outclassed by A sandslash because the steel typing gives A-Slash resists that cyrogonal just does not have. Even though A-slash has to worry about fighting and fire moves Cryogonal low def 94-218 but if cryogonal is carrying freeze dry, which it usually is water type can be in trouble in a matchup . against cryogonal but cryogonal has to watch out for a strong physical attack , Cryogonal fits well in A, A-, B+, B, B- any can fit for cryo!
I figured I'd post in support of some nominations and make one or two of my own.
Jellicent: A to A-
Jellicent has a harder time offensively thanks to both Guzzlord and the newly dropped Cryogonal, as well as the same problems that have plagued it for a while now (Pursuit bait, water-resists being fairly common resulting in some hard matchups at preview). Defensively, Jellicent is now forced to choose between Dazzling Gleam and Taunt, with the former being used to 2HKO Guzzlord and prevent it from claiming a free kill almost every time Jellicent comes in, and the latter being used to prevent Toxic users like Gastrodon and Mudsdale from taking it out.
While set diversity is a plus for it, the teams it can be found on allow it to be very easy to predict, knowing at preview whether it'll be offensive or defensive.
As both a wallbreaker and a wall-enforcer I'd rather see it in A- alongside the likes of Aggron.
Cradily: C+ to C/C-
I'd honestly not mind if it went even lower; as a normal resist it's outclassed by both Regirock and Tangela, and its water immunity isn't especially sought after right now when Rain blasts through it and Specs Jellicent is on the decline.
Mr. Mime: C to C-, if not unranked
It's slow and frail, and its niche of Fairy typing isn't enough to keep it in C as far as I'm concerned.
While scaring Guzzlord is nice, it's not a reliable switch-in by any means; it's 2HKOd by Dark Pulse and OHKOd by Heavy Slam and Sludge (Wave/Bomb). A neutrality to Dark type moves is nice, but this is only really relevant against Gurdurr (which Mesprit already checks); you're still dying to Pursuit and Sucker Punch users. For the most part, you're far better off using either CM Mesprit or Silvally-Fairy instead of this weird middle-ground. Drampa's getting less use because of the rise in both Guzzlord and its checks (e.g. Carbink, Silvally-Fairy) which I understand was why it got this high in the first place.
Carracosta: A- to A
Like the others have said, reliance on Primeape and Dodrio as Choice Scarf users makes this thing shine pretty well, thanks to Aqua Jet doing a solid number to the former and a solid defensive backbone preventing the latter from threatening it.
Manectric: B to B-
Fast scarfers are less necessary now, and outspeeding Sandslash-A under hail, Omastar etc. was Manectric's only real niche. It can still poke holes in teams if there's a good matchup, but there are an equal number of occasions where you're up against a Lanturn or something and you're functionally useless outside of clicking Switcheroo. Hard to justify outside a very narrow group of teams.
Duosion: idk
Just wanted to say that if we're ranking this we should unrank Musharna this time. They cover the same bases.
Shiinotic: C- to D/Unranked
I know that this just rose, but cmon. It's a really slow breaker that doesn't have a typing that lets it come in on much; we have better breakers that abuse Fighting types (Victreebel, Jellicent) and it's only checking one of the four Guzzlord sets anyway, at best speed-tieing with them (though most Guzzlord seem to be trying to creep each other, so good luck with that). The votes were almost 50/50 on rising this last shift, so I'd be interested to hear on what the reasoning was; Lilligant leaving?
Also, while we're still experimenting with it, Cryogonal's presence as a new defensive threat is enough to warrant lowering this back down IMO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Cryogonal: 142-168 (39.1 - 46.2%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Cryogonal: 123-145 (33.8 - 39.9%)
I'll probably think of more noms to post later but this'll do for now.
Hello! So ive got a few noms that I wanted to make and also give some of my opinions regarding older ones if I feel like I can add a little something to the discussion.
Roselia: B -> B-.
While Roselia continues being a relatively solid Spiker, meta trends have really affected its status as Sp. Def wall. The decline of Pokemon such as Wallbreaker Jellicent and the appearance of other ones such as Guzzlord have made it way too vulnerable to the more used special attackers being used in the current meta. The aforementioned Guzz as well as Simisear, Rotom-Frost, offensive Mesprit, Aurorus and Abomasnow (to name a few) all give it trouble and have been used to different levels of success in PUPL, further proving to be threats that this Sp. Def mon simply cant take on. Even Pokemon such as Omastar are being used less since people tend to prefer Costa as a SSer in the current meta, which Rose isn’t able to counter.
Rotom-Frost: B+ -> A-.
The highest win rate of Rotom-Frost in PUPL has been of 100% while its lowest has been of 50%. This Pokemon has proven many times how much of a threatening asset it can be for teams. Everyone knows how busted Voltbeam can be, now pair that with decent stats all across the board and the ability to cripple your biggest counters with Trick and you’ve got a powerful mon that’s able to tear through lots of teams not carrying one of the hard counters to it and still function as a powerful pivot. High usage of Lanturn does hurt it, but the amount of matchups in which Rotom is able to shine is incredible, being able to easily wear down offensive pivots such as Eel as well as having decent utility in the form of Defog and Trick. I point out Trick so early on cause a lot of the Rotom-Frost used in PUPL were Scarf, but its also important to remember that Rotom is one of the best offensive Defog users in the tier, being able to beat most setters from Slash-Alola to even Regirock in a 1 v 1 scenario (Granted youd have the option of the Z-Blizzard if youre running the Defog set). The appearance of slower teams prior to Lilligants ban allows this mon to function as a reliable scarf user and a regular Z-user with a really great speed tier to function as an offensive wallbreaker.
Leafeon: B- -> B.
It is beyond me how this Pokemon is so low in the viability rankings. It has a great speed tier and Attack stat, access to Sword Dance, a more than decent Phys def stat and can even cripple physical walls with Knock Off.
The Grass-type eeveelution was one of the few Grass-types that didn’t go higher in the VR after the ban of Lilli, and I really think it has an incredible offensive presence and deserves more recognition: Teams utilizing Pokemon such as Carracosta and Metang as Normal-resists don’t want to come in on Leaf Blade or Knock off respectively. Leafeon is also able to cripple one of our best phys def walls, Tangela.
As shown by this calc, Leafeon can easily overwhelm Tangela by knocking it off and utilizing its Z-move. Sp Def. Sandslash-Alola is another Pokemon Leafeon can wear down and beat by virtue of eating an Icicle Crash due to its high Defense stat, while Flying-types such as Oricorio Pom-Pom are outsped by it and easily knocked out by a +2 Breakneck Blitz.
Another question people might be wondering is why youd utilize this mon over other Grass-types. Well Leafeon has a greater speed than Vic and is able to beat Pokemon like the aforementioned yellow birb. Leafeon is also one of the only setup Grass-types in the tier outside of Bellossom, Abomasnow, Sawsbuck, all of which struggle with very noticeable issues in their speed (except for Saws), how prone they are to status, amount of weaknesses and difficulty in finding setup opportunities (not counting the very niche physical Vic or Simisage, the latter of which mostly runs an AoA set). Sawbuck, which is quite similar to it in terms of typing and stats, has a lower physical defense and is unable to cripple physical wall via Knock Off, while also being prone to the common Mach Punch.
Another point in favor of Leaf is the Pokemon it forces out and yet manages to beat under the right circumstances: Tangela, Metang, Pom Pom, special Attackers which are able to beat most of our other Grass-types.
Even a Pokemon such as Guzzlord doesn’t have the best time switching into this:
Now I wont sugar coat the fact that Leafeon has some issues of its own. Has a relatively low Special defense and is still prone to most Scarfers, yet most of them don’t want to come in on it and Leafeons physically defensive capabilities don’t make it an unreliable glass cannon, but a threatening wallbreaker and wincon that still has enough defensive capabilities to find many setup opportunities.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-914572750 This was a really valuable replay against a friend that first granted me the knowledge of how good Leafeon can be. As I said earlier, teams utilizing Pokemon such as Carracosta and Tangela as Normal resists or walls for most physical attackers are bound to struggle with this threat. I played rather passively with Leafeon earlier on but managed to knock off Tangela and Dod. When I first did this I was frankly unaware of the amount of damage a +2 Z-Double Edge was gonna do to the grass thing with shoes after the item had been knocked but it rapidly increased the value of Leafeon in the match, which already had a great MU against common threats such as Costa and Lanturn. The Toxic on Tang further wears it down though itll be healed later on yet its already been put in range of the +2 Z-move from Leaf. Eliminating Dodrio ended up being my main goal afterwards, which led to Leafeon sweeping in the endgame, beating Tangela with relative ease.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-926630583 Similar team configuration. From team preview I had noticed the value of my scarf mes and Leafeon, both putting enough pressure against my opponents team (hi, nerd, ly). I had considered Mes to be a pretty good wincon here and Leaf a means to obtain said wincon by hopefully knocking off Metang, wearing down Skunk and stopping Costa from setting up. Later in the match, after knocking off both Metang and Skunk I had noticed the great value of Leaf in the late-game, which I had kept as a sac or, in case it was useful for later, alive for a HW. After the HW and setup, Leafeon is able to break through the Metang as well as Victreebel and win the match by knocking out Costa, effectively showcasing the how it was able to break through two physical walls and through slower wallbreakers.
Pom-Pom: A+ -> A.
As much as I love this little birb, losing Lilli turned it into a much less essential part of the meta. While Sensu was a better Lilli check, Pom Pom offered more in terms of role compression, also being a great Gurdurr counter while having a great offensive presence over common threats such as Slash-A if using HP Fighting. The issue is that losing that initial role against Lilli, as well as the Pokemon that have rose in usage after its ban, have allowed for other Fighting checks to become more popular such as Victreebel and Muds. Furthermore, the omnipresence of Guzzlord doesn’t give the birb any favors.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think this birb is great at what it does and is still a fantastic stallbreaker, but all of the factors previously mentioned, further corroborated by its almost extinction from PUPL in the last week has proven how the lil birb might’ve hit a wall. ;-;
Beheeyem: D -> at least C.
Wow, another niche Psychic-type being nommed up! Ill try to be as quick and concise with this one: What does Beheeyem do that CM Mes, Duosion and Musharna cant? Has more Special attack (tied w Duo), further boosted by Analytic; can function as a TR abuser and is able to beat some of its potential checks such as Guzzlord and Skuntank.
I had initially talked to EviGaro about how to fix some of the issues that this Pokemon has in terms of Speed and physical defense. We ended up coming up with a 252 HP/136+ Def/120 Speed spread that’s able to take on Knock Off from Pokemon such as Gurdurr, STAB moves from Skunk (non-banded) and enough Speed to outspeed Guzzlord (we tried to outcreep the speedier ones). The result is a powerful yet formidably somewhat defensive wallbreaker that’s able to 2HKO Pokemon such as Lanturn, Eel at +2 as well as OHKO Guzzlord and Skuntank with Bugium Z after the previously mentioned boost.
+2 0 SpA Beheeyem Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Guzzlord: 730-860 (124.3 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Analytic Beheeyem Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 471-555 (135.3 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 187-222 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 40 HP / 248+ SpD Lanturn: 262-309 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The next step when utilizing this set was trying out Trick Room, since the initial set had Recover. While I do enjoy both options, OTR will always have incredible match ups against offense and Beheeyem did not fail at doing incredible amounts of damage to teams thinking that their Dark-type was a safe switch in, or that their Scarfer would be enough to revenge kill the Psychic-type.
While this mon still has some big issues in the form of its not so great phys def and Speed, if not using OTR, I definitely think its worth of a higher ranking than D. It’s incredibly functional and it will always put in work by virtue of its special attack, without considering the option of Psyshock which I have admittedly not tested out yet but is obviously able to damage certain threats even harder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-924249282 In this first replay, a Behee with no Special Attack investment is able to take advantage of an asleep Eel and knock out almost 4 members of the opposing team. As said previously, Skunk dies to +2 Savage Spin Out but people often expect the lower physical defense of this mon to force out Behee, which often results in….this.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-923070074 Not so much a display of Behee putting in work as much as a showcase of how utilizing a OTR setter can benefit other members of your team and beat offense and weather (Tr functioning as anti-offense isn’t new but its still something great to have in certain occasions, mostly considering how bad my Rotom-F and Aurorus MU were with this team). As shown by this, Behee is able to set Trick Room and deal a bit of damage before fainting, allowing Gurdurr to clean by being able to outspeed Mesprit and Scyther.
Golurk: B -> B+.
Golurk is one of the tiers best offensive Stealth Rock setters, thanks to its almost superb offensive typing, moveset and speed which allows it to beat common hazard removers and set up rocks in multiple occasions during a match. Im quite surprised that it doesn’t seem more use, since its able to set rocks and spin block as well as counter most Primeape and Hitmonchan sets, to name a few mons it can come in on. I just personally feel like this mon is too solid and consistent in its offensive presence to warrant a rise to B+, having very limited safe switch ins outside of phys def walls such as Tangela or Quag, while also being able to beat Pokemon like Skuntank due to its Colbur. I also know of more niche sets such as Scarf that have functioned for players to great success. While its bound to be worn down and is weak to some very common typings, the player has to remember that this is an offensive setter and utilize it in that way.
I wish I had replays of this mon putting in work but I don’t feel like this is a mon that functions in flashy ways, its simply one that’s able to beat a plethora of stuff or threaten out common Pokemon such as defensive Mes, Sp Def Slash-Alola, Primeape, Eel, Lanturn while also granting it many chances to set up rocks and not function passively. While offensive SR Mesprit is one of our other good offensive setters alongside Lycan, its unable to keep up hazards on Pokemon such as Skuntank and loses on the utility of U-turn and HW, so I don’t see a reason why this 3 attacks monster isn’t able to also function as a great asset for offensive teams looking for a non-passive setter that’s able to provide a series of perks that no other setter can and not warrant a rise.
Bellossom: B -> B-.
Bello wishes it had 6 moves, but it doesn’t so it has decide what it wants to lose to: Painful toxic death, Ice-type or ultra-beast.
Carracosta: A- -> A. Agree.
Utilizing Carracosta quite a bit lately and working on its analysis has really given me a lot of reasons to consider this mon warrant of a rise. I wont go on about the same stuff that’s been said but I do wanna reiterate the fact that the coverage options that this mon is able to provide can turn a match upside down rather easily and its difference in options for Items and Z moves allows it to break through certain checks if your oppo isn’t careful.
Ludicolo: B+ -> A-. Agree.
Thought this was A- already.
Kabutops: A- -> B+. Disagree.
Simisear: A- -> A. Disagree.
Simisear is a high risk high reward wallbreaker in the tier. It offers almost no defensive utility and often has trouble finding setup opportunities in certain matchups. This inconsistency, as well as a p mediocre record for PUPL shows me that this mon just isn’t on par with some of the wallbreakers in A. While I utilize Simisear quite a bit and find its offensive presence to be superb, it cant utilize utility moves such as Taunt and Sub in the current meta since it would be unable to even touch Guzz without Focus Blast (which is almost forced out to use rn) and its still just as prone to common priority moves which means that it cant fulfill the role of a stallbreaker role it previously had,. Apart from this, weakness to rocks on a mon that is so easily forced out adds to the high risk high reward aspect of it and its lack of splashability means that its not on par withof the wallbreakers in A. (The SR point can be said about Aurorus but that actually can still setup hail for a teammate or for the sole purpose of maximizing chip). Also, while Specs and Scarf sets are usable but niche, a choice locked Simi is a lot easier to play around and the latter can be quite weak.
Type: Null: B+ -> A. Hard disagree.
My main issue with this mon is that it kinda forces you to build in a certain way to make up for its weaknesses and because of its passiveness. Its not like Tangela (physical wall but can still prove a point) that provides great utility even for the mon coming in. Type:Null is just incredibly passive and doesn’t add much to the table other than pivoting and functioning as the wall it is. Its also prone to getting worn down, and considering the amount of special wallbreakers we have with Fighting type moves (Simi, Aboma, Raichu-Alola, etc) it can have a hard time mostly when its pressured by Rocks and different forms of hazards (Tang has Regen to circumvent that as well as Leech Seed which is a lot more reliable than RestTalk).
Duosion: Rank. Hard disagree.
Ive gone over this a few times with some of my friends and I just think the nature of the tier doesn’t allow this mon to function as a setup sweeper. Its incredibly inconsistent and can only function well against slower teams that lack the offensive capabilities to knock it out (or to even knock it off). Its easily pressured by strong wallbreakers and, while it has a pretty great special attack, youre not even OHKOing Guzz at +2 unless youre running Modest and that’s a roll. As someone who utilized a lower ranked psychic-type and nommed it up myself earlier in this post, I find little reason to justify Duosion over CM Mes due to its initial passivity, reliance on Evio, and lack of utility other than to function as a Toxic absorber. CM Mes functions as an offensive wallbreaker able to punch holes on teams, and Magic Guard doesn’t give it that much of a niche unless youre running against very specific playstyles such as stall or the weakests of balance builds, which doesn’t really function in an offensive meta like this most of the time ;-;
We decided unanimously that Crygonal is fine to start out at B. This is a really weird case of even the fresh new Pokemon being something nobody really wants to use because it's just hard to justify with so many other better Ice-types, but once you get over that it's still a fairly average Pokemon. Its bulky sets can beat most other Ice-types and remove fairly passably and at the moment we just feel that if anyone were to use it, it'd be just fine. I do want to get a major update out before the big July shift so I'd get any noms out that you feel strongly about pretty soon.
c to b- or higher
this mon is criminally underrated, its defensive stats are more than impressive and its offensive stats arent half bad. in practice musharna acts as a nice reliable check to so many common mons (the meta's supply of fighting types, mudsdale, regirock, mesprit, kanga, whatever), it does well against guzz switchins, it just has a lot of redeeming features. i was reluctant to nominate this because i haven't saved any replays of me using it, and i feel as if i don't know how to phrase this nom properly, but i implore more people to try out physdef z-gleam in the current meta, it's more than impressive. seeing the comments made about musharna earlier on this page make me cringe a little, it's definitely a potent pokemon and ranking it any lower than it is now would be stupid.
my thoughts
unranked to c+/b- y
im not so sure about as high as b- but i definitely think it should be ranked somewhere. its offensive coverage is quite solid, lo ohkos pom pom, slash, the other kinda mons youd rely on to check grass types, at this current point in the meta it just runs through many bulkier teams with the right support.
a to b+ y
yes theres very little reason to use this anymore, never really thought it was ever worth a+ and even then i thought it deserved a-; this is more than justified imo.
b to b+ n
i really don't agree with this. the increasing prevalence of mudsdale, regirock & fairy silvally really hurt this mon. it's just not as powerful as it needs to be imho. it really requires a moxie boost before becoming scary against most teams honestly. i'd really advise using better cleaners than this.
b to b-/c+ y
manectric sucks, ngl it surprises me that it was this high, i didn't realise that. this is definitely worse than everything else in that rank, and the increased usage of mudsdale and lanturn and eel and every other mon in the tier bc manectric is shit really hurts manectric.
a- to a N
i can't justify my opinion as well as i'd like but here we go. simisear is not /that/ good. your nomination fails to take into account that 1) it really doesn't get set up opportunities often and that 2) it can only run one of these sets you're listing. 3) it relies on its zmove to take out so many common mons 4) it's frail and dies to any common scarfer from full. 5) its speed tier isn't super impressive. there are much better sweepers than simisear. it's niche is definitely well defined due to its great typing and lack of competition but a is definitely a stretch to say the least.
a to a- n
unpopular opinion but i really really like jellicent, and i try to use it quite a fair bit. i also think a lot of the disdain towards this pokemon comes from the fact that not many people have tried the spdef variant which walls a large chunk of the metagame, reliably defensively checks mons like omastar, mesprit, av eel, drampa; while not giving up its ability to competently check offensive fightings like ape and chan. deserving of a still in my opinion.
a- to b+ n
you don't know what kabu does and thats very evident given a reasoning about how it's "just not the best spinner anymore". u_u
c+ to unr N
use it please.
unr to d n
duosion is absolutely not better than musharna, your post mentions cm duosion as a nice set up sweeper, but cm mesprit covers many more bases that an immunity to toxic and hazards isn't close to equal with.
b+ to a- n
a few months ago i was very passionate about allowing ludicolo into the a- rank but since then guzzlord has dropped, the meta has changed significantly and i definitely don't see ludicolo as potent as it was then. specially offensive sweepers like omastar seem to be much more impressive nowadays. that being said i don't strongly oppose this nom so if it did move it'd still make sense.
c- to c+ y
in practice this mon is really nice, theres a very obvious lack of resists, idk it's just solid.
a+ to a y
i was also against ranking this lower just bc lilli left but this genuinely isn't as good as it used to be and its becoming increasingly harder to justify.
Quagsire A -> A-
The meta has been getting increasingly tough on Quag. Letting in threats like Guzzlord, Eelektross, and Victreebel without too much issue makes it pretty unappealing to fit Quag on your team. These two replays from PUPL are perfect examples of this. In both games Quag just gives Eel too many opportunities to weaken the Quag user's team. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-928662770 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-919699488
In addition, the mons that Quag is the best at checking like Aggron and Lycanroc have fallen off in usage quite a bit. These factors combined with Mudsdale being able to check most of what Quag can while also providing a soft normal resist and rocks make it hard to justify Quag outside of very bulky balance and stall. This feels like a no brainer for me and I'm surprised no one has made this nom yet.
Aggron A- -> B+
Aggron has a much harder time effectively breaking than what it used to be able to do. Bulky staples that Aggron used to take advantage of like Defensive Rocks Mes and Mono Hurricane Oricorios have fallen out of favor. Mudsdale usage is at an all time high and the current bulky staples like Spdef Slash, Eel, and Silv Fairy all have means of mitigating Aggron's effectiveness via coverage or Parting Shot. Aggron can still have its matchups, though it needs to be played much more aggressively than in the past and there are breakers that provide more utility like Guzzlord or Aurorus. All of these factors put Aggron more in line with breakers like Crabominable or Drampa.
Cryogonal B -> B+
When zard asked in council chat where we should rank this, I was one of the ones who had said B. I had admittedly not used it much at all and had dismissed it as a mon too difficult to fit on teams to justify any higher than B. However after giving it an honest try and changing my perspective a bit on how it fits on teams, I have come to appreciate how effective Cryo can be as wincon. Thanks to Cryo's bulk, great speed tier, and decent coverage between Freeze Dry and HP Fire, it can be surprisingly hard to switch into and also blanket check most special attackers in the tier. When you combine this with the spikes stacking that Cryo fits the best with, the extra switches Cryo forces can rack up damage quickly. Cryo is one of if not the best removal options for hazard stack offense and I believe that merits a spot in B+.
Camerupt Unranked -> C/C-
When Evi brought this up in our pupl chat I oel'd, but after testing with it I believe it has a small niche in the current metagame.
Camerupt @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast/Hp Ice/Flamethrower/Overheat
- Fire Blast/Hp Ice/Flamethrower/Overheat
Choice Specs Camerupt can take advantage of its dual STAB and ridiculously powerful Eruption vs a few key common pokemon to effectively break just about any defensive core. Froslass, Spdef Slash, some skunk sets, Eelektross, and Tangela are a few examples of common mons that Camerupt can come in on or double into with varying levels of safety and secure KOs afterwards. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-932191279 In this replay Camerupt is able to force Froslass and Metang to never get up hazards or lose a pokemon every time they try. Even AV Guzz is only able to come in once on a full powered Eruption.
While Camel is notably slower and doesn't provide as much defensive utility as other breakers like Aurorus or Guzzlord, it is one of the most effective and consistent ways to punish Volt Switch Eelektross. Virtually nothing can switch in safely bar the rare Spdef Jellicent or Altaria, even Type Null will get 2hkoed by Eruption after rocks. While Camerupt is mostly outclassed by other breakers most of the time, I still believe it has enough of a niche to warrant a placement on the VR.
This concludes LST's yearly contribution to the community.
I'm also going to be sneaking in a few nominations right before this VR update gets made (spoilers).
Dodrio A to A-
S through A is actually pretty representative of what's the top, best, and biggest threats in the tier right now imo, with A- more serving to catch the really strong Pokemon that are nevertheless a bit more matchup based and notably less common. This is where I see Dodrio, it doesn't have the consistency or threat level to warrant staying so high. I feel like it's a lot easier to support even Pokemon like Lycanroc or Primeape to be a consistent threat than you can Dodrio, and the difficulty of getting this mon to work should be reflected in the drop. To me if this happened alongside previous noms for Quagsire and Persian down and Carracosta up (and maybe pompom haven't decided), S through A- would be in pretty ideal shape.
Poliwrath B+ to B
Poliwrath doesn't really check our top threats anymore. This thing skyrocketed on the VR because most of our biggest mons (outside of Mesprit) had a lot of trouble dealing with it. But the tier's adapted and the meta's swung the other way. Froslass and Guzzlord are theoretically at a type disadvantage but aren't too bothered by its presence since it doesn't stop them from spamming Draco/Spikes. Aggron isn't a premier wallbreaker anymore, instead we use CM Mesprit and Victreebel, just to name a couple of Pokemon which can abuse Poliwrath really, really hard. Even Jellicent has mostly stopped running Specs and now I'd be surprised if people commonly use a set that's remotely bothered by Wrath's presence. It's not without its uses on specific teams and it can still be really annoying, Circle Throw is a genuinely good move in this meta and something has to be able to counter most Carracosta sets. But it doesn't need to stay so high.
Floatzel B to B-
Maybe I value consistency too highly but this Pokemon just does not work half the time. When Floatzel is performing at its maximum potential because it's because it has the perfect set and matchup, and at that point it's like a B+ threat maybe. But most of the time Floatzel consistently underperforms compared to B rank mainstays like Haunter and Alolan Dugtrio. At its best it's a better mon, but you never really know what you're getting with this thing and I was super let down by its PUPL performance.
