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On my end yes I should have been more detailed in my initial post, I went for a short and consise response because I didn’t want to over complicate, but that was myb I couldve just laid it out.
Also something I thought I was more clear about. It’s not the implementation itself that is going to cause chaos and disrupt, it’s the means by which we would need to go about doing so that would disrupt the community since we can’t cross our boundaries with a council vote (explained why it crosses our boundaries above). The only method we could go about making an implementation like this without being at the start of a generation is via a suspect test. Right now the community is in the middle of one of the biggest competitions of the year while competition is at an all time high. We aren’t particularly interested in having a suspect for something that we feel could be solved with significantly less drawback at a different time. You can think about the distractions that suspecting swagger would cause during a major team tournament for us. We want to keep the focus on competing right now as these time periods are short lived and happen annually. And You can say we haven’t honored your proposition, and while I can sit here and say we have and you can say you don’t believe me is just he said she said. What I can tell you is that I wouldn’t be taking the time out of my day to be having a fair discussion with you over what myself and other council members have discussed today after seeing your post. If it gives you any closure I’m willing to let you know that this is something we feel we will revisit in the future. We know there is an argument there, if there wasn’t an argument there then the rest of smogon would still have it banned. Just understand that we aren’t in an ideal spot to do something like that and a forced decision, which is what it would have to be, is still forced and will cause unwanted disrupt solely by means of implementation regardless of whether or not the implementation itself is deemed viable or not. I look forward to this being revisited because I think we could get something done here, but for now I hope you at least see where we are coming from a little bit even if you don’t agree (which is fine btw) because you have a case, it’s just not appealing for the sake of the community right now.
I'm not sure if you misread one of my last sentences or not. When I said, "I don't think you haven't honored my request and talked about it among yourselves and I appreciate your responses regarding pokemon of all things," that means I am grateful you and whoever you have conversed with are having a discussion with me.
I could've put 2 and 2 together to understand that mwp is what you meant by "disrupt the community" in your second post, but spelling it out made it a lot clearer if that's what you meant before. If that is what is keeping you from doing a suspect or whatever it is that is going to involve the entire community, that makes sense to me. Why draw everyone's attention away from the tour? In the future knowing that, "we will not be able to fully honor tier changing discussion amidst large tournaments," is useful information. That would've saved us both some time.
On my end yes I should have been more detailed in my initial post, I went for a short and consise response because I didn’t want to over complicate, but that was myb I couldve just laid it out.
Also something I thought I was more clear about. It’s not the implementation itself that is going to cause chaos and disrupt, it’s the means by which we would need to go about doing so that would disrupt the community since we can’t cross our boundaries with a council vote (explained why it crosses our boundaries above). The only method we could go about making an implementation like this without being at the start of a generation is via a suspect test. Right now the community is in the middle of one of the biggest competitions of the year while competition is at an all time high. We aren’t particularly interested in having a suspect for something that we feel could be solved with significantly less drawback at a different time. You can think about the distractions that suspecting swagger would cause during a major team tournament for us. We want to keep the focus on competing right now as these time periods are short lived and happen annually. And You can say we haven’t honored your proposition, and while I can sit here and say we have and you can say you don’t believe me is just he said she said. What I can tell you is that I wouldn’t be taking the time out of my day to be having a fair discussion with you over what myself and other council members have discussed today after seeing your post. If it gives you any closure I’m willing to let you know that this is something we feel we will revisit in the future. We know there is an argument there, if there wasn’t an argument there then the rest of smogon would still have it banned. Just understand that we aren’t in an ideal spot to do something like that and a forced decision, which is what it would have to be, is still forced and will cause unwanted disrupt solely by means of implementation regardless of whether or not the implementation itself is deemed viable or not. I look forward to this being revisited because I think we could get something done here, but for now I hope you at least see where we are coming from a little bit even if you don’t agree (which is fine btw) because you have a case, it’s just not appealing for the sake of the community right now.
So i cant give my full standing on the scenario since i played ou back when swagger was allowed, but i feel as though almost no mons would take this and honestly it makes us look for lack of better word "silly" compared to other tiers if we havent removed something that is neither unbalanced nor promoting super rng based play, ofc rng is part of the game but swagger doesnt fully effect the difference in that like jahkem has stated even a move like confuse ray could be compared. If a suspect test is the ONLY way for swagger to come back then i feel this should be postponed till after mwp and the like, as not to disrupt the community like wanka has stated. Though i am curious if every choice is made into a suspect test nowadays also?
I have no interest in holding a council vote to unban Swagger. Even beyond how terrible a precedent that would set, it's literally against the very tiering philosophy that Paleo and I worked on (quoted above). The point of quickbanning is to quickly and immediately remove Pokemon or other elements from Monotype that are so good (or uncompetitive) they are destructive to the metagame. For these, a suspect would be too slow to correct the metagame and is essentially a waste of time. It should be fairly obvious, but Swagger is not a new element. Its ban is not a perilous part of Monotype or a mistaken policy that needs to be corrected. Second, you're asking for a council vote to unban not ban, which is also out of the question. Unbanning is necessarily not a time-sensitive issue. We have all the time in the world to unban something if it deserves to be unbanned, and making sure the community agrees with the council's consensus is much more valuable than moving forward without their consent. For these reasons, Swagger is not going to be unbanned by a council vote.
The metagame is as it has been since we banned Naganadel a year ago, and Swagger has been banned in Gen 7 Monotype since the games were released. There would have to be fantastic reason to break with this status quo that do not include the following: what people outside of Monotype think of the ban (since they don't play our tier), the expected usage of Swagger (if anything, this is more reason to uphold the ban), or the fact it was "nerfed". I haven't read a single argument that claims unbanning Swagger would benefit the tier enough to break the status quo. Nevertheless, as wanka said, a suspect is not out of the question. However, it is out of the question until at earliest the end of MWP and depending on our tournament schedule going into the next year, possibly longer. We'll address Swagger if we decide to at that future time when it is convenient to do so. Certainly not in the middle of our second most important tournament of the year.
You don't have to give a long response to this if you don't want to but from my understanding of what you're saying is:
You have to have a suspect if you guys wanted to make a decision about this, not just talk among yourselves and just ask for it to be removed. I'm not sure if you're required to have suspect tests after X amount of time after the start of the generation or if the council just prefers suspects at this point in time of the generation. If it's the latter, that's fine and understandable. I also understand that a suspect during MWP would be disruptive but if the council isn't required to suspect Swagger Clause, then what would be disruptive about just getting it removed and announcing it then back to focusing on MWP? I feel like a suspect test for Swagger would be a tad bit unnecessary but, like you said, I may not be seeing the decision as seriously as the council may see it.
I hope you see where I'm getting at from an outsider's perspective.
There isn't any necessary X time after which we cannot quickban or unban things, but these things should be handled on a rather immediate basis. I'd also note that whether the vocal community would be okay with it doesn't necessarily reflect the community as a whole that would be voting in a suspect. Imagine if the council had decided to quickban Sablenite in ORAS back in October of 2015 instead of run a suspect test. Would you have been okay with that? For all the reasons you would be against it, please apply them to Swagger. Exceptions to our tiering policy should not be made frivolously without serious benefit to our tier. Just look at the last time we had an exception to the rule; Aegislash ruined two entire suspect discussion threads just by existing as an exception to our tiering policy.
So i cant give my full standing on the scenario since i played ou back when swagger was allowed, but i feel as though almost no mons would take this and honestly it makes us look for lack of better word "silly" compared to other tiers if we havent removed something that is neither unbalanced nor promoting super rng based play, ofc rng is part of the game but swagger doesnt fully effect the difference in that like jahkem has stated even a move like confuse ray could be compared. If a suspect test is the ONLY way for swagger to come back then i feel this should be postponed till after mwp and the like, as not to disrupt the community like wanka has stated. Though i am curious if every choice is made into a suspect test nowadays also?
I haven't had a single non-Monotype player comment on the Swagger ban. I'm sure you can find someone to do it, but no one seriously cares about it. We want our tier to be as competitive as possible, and that is what we have done and will continue to do.
Its been 2 years since Mega-Mawile has been banned, since then we've had an entirely new generation of pokemon, its priority has took a 10bp hit and its so slow its unreal, Im for unbanning it if only to test it for a small period of time. If anyone agrees with me feel free, or if not please explain your reasoning,
~Thanks for Reading & Merry Christmas
~~ Miku-Chan
Its been 2 years since Mega-Mawile has been banned, since then we've had an entirely new generation of pokemon, its priority has took a 10bp hit and its so slow its unreal, Im for unbanning it if only to test it for a small period of time. If anyone agrees with me feel free, or if not please explain your reasoning,
~Thanks for Reading & Merry Christmas
~~ Miku-Chan
I think it’s worth stating while Sucker Punch is a decent option, all-out attacking sets that purely focus on its wallbrekaing potential are generally more consistent and harder to check in Gen 7. Mega Mawile lacks any reliable counterplay on most balance types with 4 attacks to choose from, being able to break alot of them with just 2 moves.
Water: Play Rough+Thunder Punch
Poison: Iron Head+Thunder Punch
Flying: Ice Fang+Thunder Punch
Steel: Fire Fang+Brick Break
Normal: Swords Dance is needed for Porygon2 but either STAB can be spammed freely if it is taken out.
Psychic: Play Rough+Fire Fang
Dark: Play Rough lol
Grass: Iron Head+Fire Fang
Defensive checks are basically invalidated with the right coverage move, making its threat level to a certain type often predetermined at the start of a battle.
The thing that mainly sets it apart as unbalanced in my eyes is how versatile Steel and Fairy are. Mega Mawile is quite customizable depending on what the rest of its team is vulnurable too, while other members can easily pick up the slack against other types it lacks the move to break.
For example Iron Head, Thunder Punch, Fire Fang, Brick Break can be used on Fairy to threaten Poison and Steel teams. Iron Head swapped for Play Rough on Steel teams let the set threaten Water, and Fire Fang and Brick Break can be swapped out for the likes of Ice Fang, Sucker Punch, Swords Dance, or Knock Off if wanted. Its also worth mentioning that its defensive typing is very good and it’s above average bulk can make revenge killing it difficult and letting hardly be dead weight against offense, often picking up a kill every time it gets a chance to attack.
This is all theorymonning of course but if Mega Mawile were to impact the metagame similarly as it has in OU it would being a nuissance to most archetypes and I see it being unhealthy for the metagame.
Since the metagames at a nice solid state at the moment and I'm bored this is something I've been having fun with lately as a discussion starter:
Mega Steelix is an interesting Pokemon in Monotype on sandless Ground teams with its extremely good physical bulk in conjunction with it's solid defensive Steel typing, and therefore serves as a nice defensive Pokemon for the archetype. Being able to live attacks from and check huge threats such as Azumarill and Tapu Bulu showcases what this Pokemon can do with its massive bulk and typing. As its able to check Azumarill, Mega Steelix also allows a Ground team to run Gastrodon over Seismitoad. I think that with Mega Steelixs positive traits, there are also some downsides that come to mind when using it, such as being extremely slow and letting in a lot of Pokemon that resist its Heavy Slam such as Heatran, Celesteela and Swampert in for free, while having no other way to reliably recover its HP other than putting itself to sleep with Rest.
Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
This is Mega Steelix's usual bread and butter; Curse and Heavy Slam allows it to become a devastating setup sweeper in matchups such as Fairy, Normal, Dark, and Dragon by boosting its Attack and Defense to unmatched levels. Rest is Mega Steelix's only form of recovery, and allows it to sponge status from Pokemon such as Mega Sableye which is also great for the rest of the Ground team. It becomes incredibly hard to physically break if it accumulates a few boosts and can always attempt to put in work if its checks and counters have been taken care of, even if the matchup at team preview isn't extremely favorable towards it.
Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Roar
- Heavy Slam
This is another set I've been trying out lately with Mega Steelix. I don't have a custom spread for it right now since I haven't got around to making it yet but the goal of the set is to take advantage of Steelix's monstrous bulk and Steel typing to set up rocks and pressure common Defoggers such as Mantine and Zapdos from freely removing them using Toxic, while phazing other Pokemon, namely setup sweepers, with Roar. Compared to the set listed above this set struggles because it gives up Rest along with its only form of recovery in place of other moves such as Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Roar, and as a result gets worn down much more easily. Study's nice since it means if anything gets out of hand, Steelix can guarantee living an attack in base form as a last ditch and phaze them with Roar or knock them out with Heavy Slam and if not that then getting up free Stealth Rock is always great. You sometimes have to keep an eye on Steelix's HP with this set in order to make sure that it is healthy enough to check stuff without getting worn down and maybe phaze or set Stealth Rock later on in the game, especially in matchups such as Fairy where it may be pressured to check both Azumarill and Tapu Bulu. Here's a replay in which Stealth Rock Mega Steelix switches into multiple resisted attacks and as a result consistently keep Stealth Rock up on the field because it threatened the opposing team's Defog user, Latias, out every time it decided to come in, which I think is pretty interesting. Mega Steelix is a pretty cool Pokemon so I'd like to hear more thoughts on it and maybe even sandless Ground as a whole, too.
Dusclops and Cofagrigus, despite being useful trappers within each other, haven't gotten much usage because unfortunately Ghost as a type is hardly used in tournament play due to how underwhelming it is, while Substitute + Swords Dance Tapu Bulu's found a nice place on Fairy teams as a setup sweeper and breaker since the last time it was discussed in this thread. I also think that Rain Water, an archetype that has evolved from the start of this generation from a more hyper offensive playstyle to what it is at the moment, a more bulky offensive playstyle that aims to punish opposing teams with threatening offensive Pokemon such as Mega Swampert under Rain, while the entire team still has Toxapex to fall back on if needed be, is worth trying out right now. There's still a lot of time left in MWP so it makes me wonder what it will bring to the table this time metagame wise.
Since the metagames at a nice solid state at the moment and I'm bored this is something I've been having fun with lately as a discussion starter:
Mega Steelix is an interesting Pokemon in Monotype on sandless Ground teams with its extremely good physical bulk in conjunction with it's solid defensive Steel typing, and therefore serves as a nice defensive Pokemon for the archetype. Being able to live attacks from and check huge threats such as Azumarill and Tapu Bulu showcases what this Pokemon can do with its massive bulk and typing. As its able to check Azumarill, Mega Steelix also allows a Ground team to run Gastrodon over Seismitoad. I think that with Mega Steelixs positive traits, there are also some downsides that come to mind when using it, such as being extremely slow and letting in a lot of Pokemon that resist its Heavy Slam such as Heatran, Celesteela and Swampert in for free, while having no other way to reliably recover its HP other than putting itself to sleep with Rest.
Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
This is Mega Steelix's usual bread and butter; Curse and Heavy Slam allows it to become a devastating setup sweeper in matchups such as Fairy, Normal, Dark, and Dragon by boosting its Attack and Defense to unmatched levels. Rest is Mega Steelix's only form of recovery, and allows it to sponge status from Pokemon such as Mega Sableye which is also great for the rest of the Ground team. It becomes incredibly hard to physically break if it accumulates a few boosts and can always attempt to put in work if its checks and counters have been taken care of, even if the matchup at team preview isn't extremely favorable towards it.
Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Roar
- Heavy Slam
This is another set I've been trying out lately with Mega Steelix. I don't have a custom spread for it right now since I haven't got around to making it yet but the goal of the set is to take advantage of Steelix's monstrous bulk and Steel typing to set up rocks and pressure common Defoggers such as Mantine and Zapdos from freely removing them using Toxic, while phazing other Pokemon, namely setup sweepers, with Roar. Compared to the set listed above this set struggles because it gives up Rest along with its only form of recovery in place of other moves such as Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Roar, and as a result gets worn down much more easily. Study's nice since it means if anything gets out of hand, Steelix can guarantee living an attack in base form as a last ditch and phaze them with Roar or knock them out with Heavy Slam and if not that then getting up free Stealth Rock is always great. You sometimes have to keep an eye on Steelix's HP with this set in order to make sure that it is healthy enough to check stuff without getting worn down and maybe phaze or set Stealth Rock later on in the game, especially in matchups such as Fairy where it may be pressured to check both Azumarill and Tapu Bulu. Here's a replay in which Stealth Rock Mega Steelix switches into multiple resisted attacks and as a result consistently keep Stealth Rock up on the field because it threatened the opposing team's Defog user, Latias, out every time it decided to come in, which I think is pretty interesting. Mega Steelix is a pretty cool Pokemon so I'd like to hear more thoughts on it and maybe even sandless Ground as a whole, too.
Dusclops and Cofagrigus, despite being useful trappers within each other, haven't gotten much usage because unfortunately Ghost as a type is hardly used in tournament play due to how underwhelming it is, while Substitute + Swords Dance Tapu Bulu's found a nice place on Fairy teams as a setup sweeper and breaker since the last time it was discussed in this thread. I also think that Rain Water, an archetype that has evolved from the start of this generation from a more hyper offensive playstyle to what it is at the moment, a more bulky offensive playstyle that aims to punish opposing teams with threatening offensive Pokemon such as Mega Swampert under Rain, while the entire team still has Toxapex to fall back on if needed be, is worth trying out right now. There's still a lot of time left in MWP so it makes me wonder what it will bring to the table this time metagame wise.
Mega Steelix has always been an interesting mon that I liked using as well. For the Curse set, those are the exact matchups that Steelix really helps Ground beat. I'd also like to point out that after two Curses, Steelix avoids a 2HKO from Jolly Choice Band Diggersby which is huge. Also, after one Curse, it avoids a 2HKO from Mega Lopunny's High Jump Kick as well. Steelix can almost single handedly eliminate Normal teams on its own. Same goes for the Fairy matchup where you lead Steelix and almost it's guaranteed a kill. There's been a few games where a Fairy user would lead Bulu and Wood Hammer (expecting it to OHKO or something, idk their thought process) then lose Bulu turn 1. If a Fairy player is a little more smart, they lead Klefki and set Reflect and Light Screen, however, that allows you to setup a few Curses. It's almost the same scenario with Azumarill where the Fairy player sets screens then goes Azu, thinking Reflect is enough to live a +2 or +3 Heavy Slam, depending on how long they waited to switch, and lose Azu after the Belly Drum setup. Even if Azumarill were to get a +6 Aqua Jet off vs Steelix, it avoids a OHKO against Jolly and only a 12.5% chance to OHKO with Adamant, highly in Steelix's favor. Although, this scenario is if you have not setup any Curses and fire off an unboosted Heavy Slam on an Azumarill setting up Belly Drum behind Reflect. You'd live the Aqua Jet and kill it with a second Heavy Slam.
Also, I'd like to say that I use Mega Steelix on a Sand Ground team to make some use of its Sand Force ability since it boosts Ground, Rock, AND Steel moves by 1.3x while sand is up. This gives Steelix a bit more immediate power if you need to switch it in to tank a hit and dish out some damage. That being said, I gave up Mamoswine's team slot for Steelix, which makes the Flying (and Dragon to an extent) matchup more difficult, but, as Decem mentioned, Steelix makes up for it by helping against a few more matchups. Putting Steelix on a Sand Ground team or a Sandless Ground team is really up to preference and what you're trying to beat.
But in general some of the best types are: Fairy, Flying, Dark, Electric, Poison and Psychic. Steel and Water had some so-so performance prior to the tour due to constant counter teaming, however they have been on the rise recently.
You can get a lot of subjective opinions such as above but if you want pure statistics i would recommend checking through this post by Moosical, which details the usage and winrates of the types used at latest Monotype Premier League which happened last summer. If you want something more recent, here are the stats from the Monotype ladder from november. Unfortunately they are in pretty raw form but still readable. We used to have a detailed look of all of the usages in here but that died when scpinion left (someone please start doing it again!)
Nobody is keeping record of the usage stats from the Monotype Seasonals or the latest Monotype Ladder Tournament but you are obviously free to go over the replays if you want to find out what people have been using at there! MWP2 is going on too right now, which has set some trends with Electric and other stuff.
If you ask for my subjective opinion: Water, Dark, Fairy, Steel, Flying, Psychic, Electric and Poison are all very good and consistent right now and I would without a doubt recommend you checking those out.
im kinda creating teams to every type, and the most successful to me until now are eletric, fairy, water and steel. Eletric i have a lot of trouble against poison ( most specifically mega Venusaur) , Fairy is cool except against steel team is almost no win for me, water team suffers A LOT against grass and steel suffers a lot against ground and fighting.
look at what i created so far:
im kinda creating teams to every type, and the most successful to me until now are eletric, fairy, water and steel. Eletric i have a lot of trouble against poison ( most specifically mega Venusaur) , Fairy is cool except against steel team is almost no win for me, water team suffers A LOT against grass and steel suffers a lot against ground and fighting.
look at what i created so far: View attachment 154051
Looks nice! If you want specific team-building help this thread isn't really the place for it though, try asking help in the Monotype room on Pokemon Showdown! There are usually nice Staff and helpful regulars ready to rate your teams or check https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-teambuilding-workshop-v2.3630267/ for help.
Looks nice! If you want specific team-building help this thread isn't really the place for it though, try asking help in the Monotype room on Pokemon Showdown! There are usually nice Staff and helpful regulars ready to rate your teams or check https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-teambuilding-workshop-v2.3630267/ for help.
Here are the statistics for the matchups of each type on several different parts of the ladder. These aren’t official but a friend of mine has been recording the win rates of each type vs type matchups.
That being said, the posts above by Azelea and KevinELF also tailor more to your question in tournament play while the stats I posted are for ladder. Hope we’ve helped out!
EDIT: I guess I should mention the colors on chart on the right determines good and bad win rates. Green means good win rate for the types along the right side of the chart and red means bad win rate for the types along the right side of the chart. The X’s Indicate a types that fight themselves. For example, Bug v Bug, Dragon v Dragon, Water v Water, etc. These will always result in a 50% win/lose, hence the X is placed there.
This is a mixed attacker set. Kommonium Z and Clanging Scales are there for obvious reasons. I put Soundproof on Kommo-o in order to prevent opposing Kommo-o or transformed Ditto using Clanging Scales against him. It also comes in handy when avoiding Pixilate Hyper Voices from Mega Gardevoir, Volcarona's Bug Buzz, and Azumarill's Perish Song. I invested into both attack stats and maxed out my speed to make him as fast as possible, giving him a Naive nature so his Attacks aren't lowered. I used Drain Punch over Close Combat to increase longevity for him, since he tends to get worn down pretty easily, especially with Clanging Scales' lowering his defense. Taunt is for dealing with Celesteela's Leech Seed and Protect, set-up sweepers, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc. I didn't have taunt anywhere else on my team ^^'
This is a mixed attacker set. Kommonium Z and Clanging Scales are there for obvious reasons. I put Soundproof on Kommo-o in order to prevent opposing Kommo-o or transformed Ditto using Clanging Scales against him. It also comes in handy when avoiding Pixilate Hyper Voices from Mega Gardevoir, Volcarona's Bug Buzz, and Azumarill's Perish Song. I invested into both attack stats and maxed out my speed to make him as fast as possible, giving him a Naive nature so his Attacks aren't lowered. I used Drain Punch over Close Combat to increase longevity for him, since he tends to get worn down pretty easily, especially with Clanging Scales' lowering his defense. Taunt is for dealing with Celesteela's Leech Seed and Protect, set-up sweepers, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc. I didn't have taunt anywhere else on my team ^^'
Hey guys! I'm wondering what specific attributes of a mon contributes to it being "ban-worthy". At what point do we differentiate between counterplay and over-centralization.
Hey guys! I'm wondering what specific attributes of a mon contributes to it being "ban-worthy". At what point do we differentiate between counterplay and over-centralization.
It's helpful to look at examples of established tiering policy to get an idea for what we're gauging.
ORAS Mega Sableye is pretty much the poster boy for your question, and it's important to look at it as a combination of issues. First, (almost) every team was running a dedicated Mega Sableye answer. While that isn't a dealbreaker itself, it's a red flag. The best types didn't have to waste a slot beating it, which is perhaps no coincidence. Given that it is such a centralizing Pokemon, we look at its counterplay. Mega Sableye's issue was that beating it frequently didn't require a standard "Dark-type check" or a "Ghost-type check" but instead a "Mega Sableye check". Can you imagine using Rivalry Nidoqueen because Poison teams struggle to beat Mega Sableye otherwise? I think of that as unhealthy counterplay because the only thing it does is beat Mega Sableye. Contrast that with counterplay for Mega Scizor. Mega Scizor is beaten by using Pokemon and sets that beat Steel-types in general. While it is a very good Steel-type, most Mega Scizor checks, Alolan Golem for example, can do other things very effectively like trapping all Steel-types in general.
Being able to beat a Pokemon doesn't mean the counterplay is necessarily good for the metagame. It's worth noting that Pokemon don't have to be overcentralizing to be banworthy. For example, Shadow Tag as a mechanic lacks real counterplay by definition, but no Shadow Tag user was centralizing in Monotype. I can't give you a quantifiable standard or a strict line that cannot be crossed before we consider something to be banworthy because there are ultimately too many variables to simplify down to just counterplay and overcentralization. I can suggest looking at other previous bans to get a sense for how we gauge Pokemon and the case-by-case justification for banning something. Here are a few highlights I think are best:
Zygarde is a great example of a Pokemon with dubious counterplay in the same vein as Mega Sableye. Baton Pass, while much less common than almost anything else in our tiering history, lacked reliable counterplay to the point where it was too uncompetitive. Mega Medicham and Naganadel are both examples of highly centralizing Pokemon that completely warped the metagame on release.
Every ban needs to be considered in the scope of the metagame it was decided in, so it's important to keep in mind how much Monotype changed between any two given bans. Hope that helps!
With the announcement of the next Pokemon games, and a release date planned for later this year, I believe it is only fitting to take a look at how the metagame of monotype has shifted for some types over the years.
I'll be doing a new weekly series here called: "The history of..." Where I look at one type in the metagame and how it has faired since the beginning of the generation up to now. I will be using stats from these tours: mpl3&4 and mwp1&2. Due to the lack of stats for MLT and SSNLS I decided to make it easier for everyone and just include the major team tournaments as they usually feature the biggest metagame trends. I will also be looking at general feedback the type has gotten from the casual community in our chatroom on Pokemon Showdown over time.
So without further ado, the first type I will be covering will be: Ground
General Overview:
Ground was not considered to be the best with the release of SM, as new threats like Tapu Bulu and Azumarill gaining Z-Belly Drum did not help its case at all. However, as time went on, new strategies were used and metagame shifts started to make Ground look better as a type. A brief generalization isn't going to be enough to give you an idea of how ground was perceived, so lets get into the details shall we?
Tournament performance:
MPL3 - As a brief reminder, during this tournament mega-medicham was banned (mid-way) while Magearna and Shadow Tag were still allowed. Also this is SM and not USM which means Kommo-o didn't have a Z-move and Blacephelon didn't exist, among other things.
Ground produced inconsistent results in MPL3 due to sets like Scarf Tapu Bulu being common and dugtrio not performing as well as it was intended to. Some players were able to make the type look unbreakable while others easily lost with the type. It can be inferred from both its 45% winrate overall and the quality of the matches that ground was relatively underdeveloped at the time, and did not perform well as a result.
The banning of Medicham-mega did benefit ground slightly as it made it easier for its defensive Pokemon to get in more often. However it also slightly hurt its viability due to players like Eien (who used Ground twice during this tournament) using the type to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame at the time. That being said, its safe to say that ground had a relatively humble start at the beginning of the generation when it came to tournament play.
MWP - During this tour, USUM was just released and both Shadow Tag and Magearna were banned. However Nagandel was still allowed during the first 3 weeks, which definitely affected Ground's viability in the metagame.
Now that psychic was not as prominent and with steel no longer being as strong as it was, Ground theoretically should have suffered immensely during the tournament. However, due to the prominence of Naganadel during the first 3 weeks, Ground was looked at as an option to deal with Poison and Dragon teams that would try to use it, since Excadrill in sand threatened most variants even after a speed boost as well as Excarill in Sand just being very strong. Naganadel also made Fairy less prominent during the three weeks it was allowed, which meant that Tapu Bulu was not as prominent, theoretically allowing Ground to see some usage. However, from the replays found, this was not the case. Ground still ended up meeting Fairy teams and didn't perform well against other types either. It barely won any games during the three week period naganadel was allowed, but naganadel was also not used as often as anticipated which may have played a role in Ground's performance. The rest of the tournament saw Ground suffer the same fate it did in MPL3 only this time it had no niche and suffered immensely. There are no solid usage stats of each type for MWP, but after watching every SM replay I could find for all 7 weeks, it can be inferred that ground was not used due to the rise of water usage and popularity of fairy teams. Ground only won twice out of the five times it was used that tournament (this could be wrong, please correct me if I have made an error), both times was because it had a positive matchup against Steel or Poison.
The naganadel ban only affected ground theoretically as this tour shows that Ground was not dominant or prominant at top level play when naganadel was around. After Naga got banned, Ground still did not see much usage at all for the reasons previously explained. So after MWP, Ground was relatively uncommon as a type, but still not inherently bad.
MPL4 - This tour follows our normal banlist that we have today. Also Zeraora got released midway.
After a really shoddy performance in MWP, there was a huge period of time where the metagame changed and many new sets and strategies were created. These include sets like Taunt + CM Keldeo and using sets that generally broke apart balance teams more. So Toxic Spikes, stallbreaking, and niche wallbreakers started getting more usage around this time. Due to this sudden metagame shift, more offensive teams were getting usage. Theoretically ground could capitalize off of this, but due to water still being prominent and other offensive types like Dragon getting more popular, it was not used that much. However one honorable mention is the fact that Sandless ground was used in this tournament and won a match. Player Attribute beat MJ in Week 4 of MPL4 by using a niche Ground build that tackled the bulky meta and offensive meta with pokemon in Quagsire and Gliscor. With no sand needed, Attribute had more options for Pokemon he could use, allowing him to patch up his weaknesses. It performed exactly as planned by beating normal, notable for being a very bulky type that can be hard to break.
Despite a rough start, Ground did end up doing significantly better than it did previously in MWP. While sandless did not become meta-defining it was still something that kept top players on their toes. Ground was finally worth thinking about as well with the rise of electric after Zeraora got released. This was the biggest break that ground had gotten in Gen7 history, and many people thought it was definitely a threat.
MWP2 - This tournament has recently concluded and also uses the current banlist.
Now that Tapu Bulu had began to run slower sets that didn't use a Choice Scarf, Ground did not have to worry nearly as much about getting swept by Fairy, although Azumarill still needed to be accounted for. After being used 11 times in the tournament, it felt almost as if history repeated itself as the type performed rather poorly despite its high expectations. This time around, it got counter teamed by unfavorable MU's that not even the best of players could work around. On the bright side, sandless Ground was the main way Ground was represented in this tournament, and while it did not perform as well as many wished, it still showed how far Ground had come in the metagame.
Conclusion - Over the years Ground was considered a niche type that wasn't often thought about, but now it has slowly risen in usage and has adapted to metagame trends. While it may not still be as consistent or good as Fairy and Psychic, it has definitely shown that it can put in work at even top level play.
The Progression of Teambuilding:
SM - Ground followed in the footsteps of its ORAS days and generally stayed as a weather based team. Hippowdon and Excadrill were essential and using Ground any other way was often seen as taboo. Landorus did not always run Gravity but eventually started to use it by the time USM came around. Dugtrio was also very important as people realized that it could check the ever so dominant Scarf Tapu Bulu with its access to Sludge Wave and ability in Arena Trap. While on paper this sounded great, but as time went on it would soon fall of as metagame trends progressed. Gastrodon was not seen as viable at all in the beginning of the generation, but thanks to later discoveries it soon found itself a spot as an important Pokemon for Ground teams. All in all, Ground was very basic and not as spread out in teambuilding as it would be in USUM. That being said it still had a solid archetype and a few options that were used here and there, such as Mamoswine, landorus-i or t, and Garchomp, although they varied in usability. This is what the viability rankings looked like by the end of SM: http://prntscr.com/msr8fd
USM - Ground would still follow the same trend it did in early SM until the metagame shift that happened after MWP1. The new wallbreaking metagame meant that Ground needed to catch up and use something new that would allow them to work well in this metagame. The answer would be found in MPL4, when Attribute and Charmflash used sandless Ground Stall teams that beat their respective opponents. While Ground stall didn't catch on, Sandless ground did, and many people started experimenting with new sets and teams with the many possibilities ground had to offer. Pokemon like Nidoking, Krookodile, Mega-Steelix, Gliscor, and Diggersby suddenly saw more usage on ground teams and different sets for Excadrill and Landorus were used to help them adapt as well. Dugtrio also heavily fell in usage, but is still represented as one of the best Pokemon the type has to offer. This major shift in the Ground metagame made people initially think it could be one of the best types in the game, up there with psychic and fairy. While it is still debated how good the type is (not as much anymore due to the conclusion of MWP2), Ground definitely saw one of the biggest teambuilding changes in the Gen 7 metagame.
Community Opinion:
I have contacted top players and regular casual players over the course of the week and asked them what their thoughts on ground in general have been as well as asking a few players a few specific questions about the type. Here is what I got:
Attribute:
Q: "What was your reasoning for using Stall Ground during MPL4?"
A: "After seeing the Charmflash vs Jase Duken game where Charmflash brought stall ground, I was inspired to build my own since the concept of stall ground seemed cool to me. I also noticed that my opponent, MJ, had a lot of replays using normal, so I thought this would be the opportunity to bring it."
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "Average"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "Ground is generally weak to too many common types in the metagame"
Havens:
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "I think it's underrated"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "The rise of mega steelix is actually very good for ground, it's not an autoloss for fairy anymore. Sandless Ground basically replaces Sand Ground as the best archetype and is pretty much better because of that."
Decem:
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "I think it's underrated"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "I feel like Ground has even mus but that's just me."
General Opinion from others:
After talking to other members of the chat room as well as other staff members, it is evident that a large portion of the community thinks Ground is an underrated type, and most agree that its most troubling flaw is how it loses many common MU's to standard types like Water and Psychic.
My own thoughts on the matter:
After doing this research and looking at how metagame trends heavily affected Ground, I actually grew surprised at how Ground managed to appear a lot more at tournaments than other lesser used types (Fire, Fighting, Ice, etc.), especially during the early days of the generation. Despite not having the best tournament results to back up its defining qualities, I still think its definitely a type that should be thought about when teambuilding. I believe that Ground is a pretty alright type.
Now with that out of the way, what are your thoughts on the type? Do you think it is underrated or do you think its nothing special? What do you think it may need in Gen 8? I would love to read everyone's thoughts!
A big thank you to everyone who helped make this post, especially: Eien, Attribute, Havens, Chaitanya, and Decem.
There will be another type retrospective next week! Let me know if you want me to cover anything else that you feel is important in a retrospective like this.
With the announcement of the next Pokemon games, and a release date planned for later this year, I believe it is only fitting to take a look at how the metagame of monotype has shifted for some types over the years.
I'll be doing a new weekly series here called: "The history of..." Where I look at one type in the metagame and how it has faired since the beginning of the generation up to now. I will be using stats from these tours: mpl3&4 and mwp1&2. Due to the lack of stats for MLT and SSNLS I decided to make it easier for everyone and just include the major team tournaments as they usually feature the biggest metagame trends. I will also be looking at general feedback the type has gotten from the casual community in our chatroom on Pokemon Showdown over time.
So without further ado, the first type I will be covering will be: Ground
General Overview:
Ground was not considered to be the best with the release of SM, as new threats like Tapu Bulu and Azumarill gaining Z-Belly Drum did not help its case at all. However, as time went on, new strategies were used and metagame shifts started to make Ground look better as a type. A brief generalization isn't going to be enough to give you an idea of how ground was perceived, so lets get into the details shall we?
Tournament performance:
MPL3 - As a brief reminder, during this tournament mega-medicham was banned (mid-way) while Magearna and Shadow Tag were still allowed. Also this is SM and not USM which means Kommo-o didn't have a Z-move and Blacephelon didn't exist, among other things.
Ground produced inconsistent results in MPL3 due to sets like Scarf Tapu Bulu being common and dugtrio not performing as well as it was intended to. Some players were able to make the type look unbreakable while others easily lost with the type. It can be inferred from both its 45% winrate overall and the quality of the matches that ground was relatively underdeveloped at the time, and did not perform well as a result.
The banning of Medicham-mega did benefit ground slightly as it made it easier for its defensive Pokemon to get in more often. However it also slightly hurt its viability due to players like Eien (who used Ground twice during this tournament) using the type to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame at the time. That being said, its safe to say that ground had a relatively humble start at the beginning of the generation when it came to tournament play.
MWP - During this tour, USUM was just released and both Shadow Tag and Magearna were banned. However Nagandel was still allowed during the first 3 weeks, which definitely affected Ground's viability in the metagame.
Now that psychic was not as prominent and with steel no longer being as strong as it was, Ground theoretically should have suffered immensely during the tournament. However, due to the prominence of Naganadel during the first 3 weeks, Ground was looked at as an option to deal with Poison and Dragon teams that would try to use it, since Excadrill in sand threatened most variants even after a speed boost as well as Excarill in Sand just being very strong. Naganadel also made Fairy less prominent during the three weeks it was allowed, which meant that Tapu Bulu was not as prominent, theoretically allowing Ground to see some usage. However, from the replays found, this was not the case. Ground still ended up meeting Fairy teams and didn't perform well against other types either. It barely won any games during the three week period naganadel was allowed, but naganadel was also not used as often as anticipated which may have played a role in Ground's performance. The rest of the tournament saw Ground suffer the same fate it did in MPL3 only this time it had no niche and suffered immensely. There are no solid usage stats of each type for MWP, but after watching every SM replay I could find for all 7 weeks, it can be inferred that ground was not used due to the rise of water usage and popularity of fairy teams. Ground only won twice out of the five times it was used that tournament (this could be wrong, please correct me if I have made an error), both times was because it had a positive matchup against Steel or Poison.
The naganadel ban only affected ground theoretically as this tour shows that Ground was not dominant or prominant at top level play when naganadel was around. After Naga got banned, Ground still did not see much usage at all for the reasons previously explained. So after MWP, Ground was relatively uncommon as a type, but still not inherently bad.
MPL4 - This tour follows our normal banlist that we have today. Also Zeraora got released midway.
After a really shoddy performance in MWP, there was a huge period of time where the metagame changed and many new sets and strategies were created. These include sets like Taunt + CM Keldeo and using sets that generally broke apart balance teams more. So Toxic Spikes, stallbreaking, and niche wallbreakers started getting more usage around this time. Due to this sudden metagame shift, more offensive teams were getting usage. Theoretically ground could capitalize off of this, but due to water still being prominent and other offensive types like Dragon getting more popular, it was not used that much. However one honorable mention is the fact that Sandless ground was used in this tournament and won a match. Player Attribute beat MJ in Week 4 of MPL4 by using a niche Ground build that tackled the bulky meta and offensive meta with pokemon in Quagsire and Gliscor. With no sand needed, Attribute had more options for Pokemon he could use, allowing him to patch up his weaknesses. It performed exactly as planned by beating normal, notable for being a very bulky type that can be hard to break.
Despite a rough start, Ground did end up doing significantly better than it did previously in MWP. While sandless did not become meta-defining it was still something that kept top players on their toes. Ground was finally worth thinking about as well with the rise of electric after Zeraora got released. This was the biggest break that ground had gotten in Gen7 history, and many people thought it was definitely a threat.
MWP2 - This tournament has recently concluded and also uses the current banlist.
Now that Tapu Bulu had began to run slower sets that didn't use a Choice Scarf, Ground did not have to worry nearly as much about getting swept by Fairy, although Azumarill still needed to be accounted for. After being used 11 times in the tournament, it felt almost as if history repeated itself as the type performed rather poorly despite its high expectations. This time around, it got counter teamed by unfavorable MU's that not even the best of players could work around. On the bright side, sandless Ground was the main way Ground was represented in this tournament, and while it did not perform as well as many wished, it still showed how far Ground had come in the metagame.
Conclusion - Over the years Ground was considered a niche type that wasn't often thought about, but now it has slowly risen in usage and has adapted to metagame trends. While it may not still be as consistent or good as Fairy and Psychic, it has definitely shown that it can put in work at even top level play.
The Progression of Teambuilding:
SM - Ground followed in the footsteps of its ORAS days and generally stayed as a weather based team. Hippowdon and Excadrill were essential and using Ground any other way was often seen as taboo. Landorus did not always run Gravity but eventually strrted to use it by the time USM came around. Dugtrio was also very important as people realized that it could check the ever so dominant Scarf Tapu Bulu with its access to Sludge Wave and ability in Arena Trap. While on paper this sounded great, but as time went on it would soon fall of as metagame trends progressed. Gastrodon was not seen as viable at all in the beginning of the generation, but thanks to later discoveries it soon found itself a spot as an important Pokemon for Ground teams. All in all, Ground was very basic and not as spread out in teambuilding as it would be in USUM. That being said it still had a solid archetype and a few options that were used here and there, such as Mamoswine, landorus-i or t, and Garchomp, although they varied in usability. This is what the viability rankings looked like by the end of SM: http://prntscr.com/msr8fd
USM - Ground would still follow the same trend it did in early SM until the metagame shift that happened after MWP1. The new wallbreaking metagame meant that Ground needed to catch up and use something new that would allow them to wok well in this metagame. The answer would be found in MPL4, when Attribute and Charmflash used sandless Ground Stall teams that beat their respective opponents. While Ground stall didn't catch on, Sandless ground did, and many people started experimenting with new sets and teams with the many possibilities ground had to offer. Pokemon like Nidoking, Krookodile, Mega-Steelix, Gliscor, and Diggersby suddenly saw more usage on ground teams and different sets for Excadrill and Landorus were used to help them adapt as well. Dugtrio also heavily fell in usage, but is still represented as one of the best Pokemon the type has to offer. This major shift in the Ground metagame made people initially think it could be one of the best types in the game, up there with psychic and fairy. While it is still debated how good the type is (not as much anymore due to the conclusion of MWP2), Ground definately saw one of the biggest teambuilding changes in the Gen 7 metagame.
Community Opinion:
I have contacted top players and regular casual players over the course of the week and asked them what their thoughts on ground in general have been as well as asking a few players a few specific questions about the type. Here is what I got:
Attribute:
Q: "What was your reasoning for using Stall Ground during MPL4?"
A: "After seeing the Charmflash vs Jase Duken game where Charmflash brought stall ground, I was inspired to build my own since the concept of stall ground seemed cool to me. I also noticed that my opponent, MJ, had a lot of replays using normal, so I thought this would be the opportunity to bring it."
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "Average"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "Ground is generally weak to too many common types in the metagame"
Havens:
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "I think it's underrated"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "The rise of mega steelix is actually very good for ground, it's not an autoloss for fairy anymore. Sandless Ground basically replaces Sand Ground as the best archetype and is pretty much better because of that."
Decem:
Q: "What is your current opinion on Ground right now?"
A: "I think it's underrated"
Q: "Any reasoning for that opinion?"
A: "I feel like Ground has even mus but that's just me."
General Opinion from others:
After talking to other members of the chat room as well as other staff members, it is evident that a large portion of the community thinks Ground is an underrated type, and most agree that its most troubling flaw is how it loses many common MU's to standard types like Water and Psychic.
My own thoughts on the matter:
After doing this research and looking at how metagame trends heavily affected Ground, I actually grew surprised at how Ground managed to appear a lot more at tournaments than other lesser used types (Fire, Fighting, Ice, etc.), especially during the early days of the generation. Despite not having the best tournament results to back up its defining qualities, I still think its definitely a type that should be thought about when teambuilding. I believe that Ground is a pretty alright type.
Now with that out of the way, what are your thoughts on the type? Do you think it is underrated or do you think its nothing special? What do you think it may need in Gen 8? I would love to read everyone's thoughts!
A big thank you to everyone who helped make this post, especially: Eien, Attribute, Havens, Chaitanya, and Decem.
There will be another type retrospective next week! Let me know if you want me to cover anything else that you feel is important in a retrospective like this.
Before I begin, I'd like to thank you for writing this very interesting and helpful post. As it covers a type often seen on ladders (at least, in my experiences), I can very well imagine how some readers might be interested in seeing a possible explanation for this "trend". Furthermore, this post allows people to better understand the development Ground went through throughout gen 7, and think of what your conclusion might mean for the future.
But not only do I appreciate this retrospective, I also find it quite impressive and even admiring how much time and work you must have put into this post. You're even willing to continue that in the weeks to come. Chapeau. It shows that people like you care much about this community--a community where people from all walk of lives help each other and are open to discussions.
Now, with that said, I'd like to adress some aspects.
1) In MPL3 (Tournament performance), you said "The banning of Medicham-mega did benefit ground slightly as it made it easier for its defensive Pokemon to get in more often. However it also slightly hurt its viability due to players like Eien (who used Ground twice during this tournament) using the type to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame at the time."
Would you mind explaining to me how Eien using Ground to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame somewhat hurt Ground's viability? I don't really get this explanation, or maybe, I understood you wrong?
2) After reading this post, I'm still not sure what to think of Ground. On the one hand, you have sandstorm teams that can immensely pressure your team, which would be likely the high selling point of this type, on the other hand, they can be fairly predictable, and as some people already said, they have exploitable weaknesses. But even that is not enough to deter the type as you often have to play very carefully around them, in my opinion. This is because Ground has access to some very strong wallbreaker such as Excadrill or Landorus that deal so much damage that you likely don't have the luxus to make a wrong prediction. To me, this would put the type somewhat above average. Though, I wouldn't put it too high because Ground player also have to play very carefully due to their exploitable weaknesses, I think.
As for sandless teams, that's definitely a nice alternative, and only time can tell if they can still carve a niche in gen 8.
Before I begin, I'd like to thank you for writing this very interesting and helpful post. As it covers a type often seen on ladders (at least, in my experiences), I can very well imagine how some readers might be interested in seeing a possible explanation for this "trend". Furthermore, this post allows people to better understand the development Ground went through throughout gen 7, and think of what your conclusion might mean for the future.
But not only do I appreciate this retrospective, I also find it quite impressive and even admiring how much time and work you must have put into this post. You're even willing to continue that in the weeks to come. Chapeau. It shows that people like you care much about this community--a community where people from all walk of lives help each other and are open to discussions.
Now, with that said, I'd like to adress some aspects.
1) In MPL3 (Tournament performance), you said "The banning of Medicham-mega did benefit ground slightly as it made it easier for its defensive Pokemon to get in more often. However it also slightly hurt its viability due to players like Eien (who used Ground twice during this tournament) using the type to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame at the time."
Would you mind explaining to me how Eien using Ground to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame somewhat hurt Ground's viability? I don't really get this explanation, or maybe, I understood you wrong?
2) After reading this post, I'm still not sure what to think of Ground. On the one hand, you have sandstorm teams that can immensely pressure your team, which would be likely the high selling point of this type, on the other hand, they can be fairly predictable, and as some people already said, they have exploitable weaknesses. But even that is not enough to deter the type as you often have to play very carefully around them, in my opinion. This is because Ground has access to some very strong wallbreaker such as Excadrill or Landorus that deal so much damage that you likely don't have the luxus to make a wrong prediction. To me, this would put the type somewhat above average. Though, I wouldn't put it too high because Ground player also have to play very carefully due to their exploitable weaknesses, I think.
As for sandless teams, that's definitely a nice alternative, and only time can tell if they can still carve a niche in gen 8.
Hello! Thank you for reading my post. I am so glad that you enjoyed it and that you were able to get something out of it. Now I will answer the questions that you asked:
1) In MPL3 (Tournament performance), you said "The banning of Medicham-mega did benefit ground slightly as it made it easier for its defensive Pokemon to get in more often. However it also slightly hurt its viability due to players like Eien (who used Ground twice during this tournament) using the type to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame at the time."
Would you mind explaining to me how Eien using Ground to beat the hyper offensive Psychic metagame somewhat hurt Ground's viability? I don't really get this explanation, or maybe, I understood you wrong?
I think it may have been a little unclear but essentially what I am saying here is that Ground was originally used during the Megacham metagame to deal with those Hyper Offensive Psychic teams that were very dominant in the tournament scene. Due to Megacham's ban, it slightly lost that niche that it had, which theoretically made it less viable as an option. My apologies if that confused you.
2) After reading this post, I'm still not sure what to think of Ground. On the one hand, you have sandstorm teams that can immensely pressure your team, which would be likely the high selling point of this type, on the other hand, they can be fairly predictable, and as some people already said, they have exploitable weaknesses. But even that is not enough to deter the type as you often have to play very carefully around them, in my opinion. This is because Ground has access to some very strong wallbreaker such as Excadrill or Landorus that deal so much damage that you likely don't have the luxus to make a wrong prediction. To me, this would put the type somewhat above average. Though, I wouldn't put it too high because Ground player also have to play very carefully due to their exploitable weaknesses, I think.
This was the kind of discussion I wanted this post to start! Most of this is just opinion so I can't really give a definite answer, but I can surely tell you that I agree with your points about sand ground still being strong with its incredible wallbreakers. I personally feel that it can still serve very well in this metagame even if sandless ground is the trend that has caught on as of late.
If anyone else has questions/criticisms feel free to post them here as well! I enjoyed making this post and I am glad it was well received. Once again thank you BlueRay for reading the whole post, I really appreciate it :).
I think Buzzwole is currently a must-have on mono-bug teams. It's one of the most reliable revenge killers with scarf, and with beast boost, Unless it is dealt with in 1-2 turns, there is no stopping it from sweeping major parts of most teams. Here's the current set I run:
Buzzwole @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
I used to run Poison Jab instead of Ice Punch for Fairy coverage, but I don't use it right now because I run poison jab on Aranquanid and run Mega Scizor. If you switch smartly into frail mons or unsuspecting users who don't expect Buzzwole to be scarfed, you can quickly set up attack with beast boost and sweep away most teams. I don't see it that frequently, but I've used it so effectively that I feel like more people should use it (or perhaps I want to keep it to myself ;) ).
Let me know your thoughts on it!
