Metagame USUM Metagame Discussion Thread

[SaveMeJebus]

and like I said, timid encapsulates a significant number of sets, not just Z electric, so you can’t exactly make an assumption off of pure usage stats like you are and have it be adequately educated. Additionally, Naive is most certainly NOT the most optimal nature used on Z Wild Charge. One of Tapu Koko’s biggest draws in the current metagame is its ability to check Torn-T arguably more consistently than anything else in the tier so throwing that away to do increase your damage output by such a slim margin is very stupid. Not only that, but a fair amount of people on the higher portions of the ladder have begun to run tbolt over taunt on dual screens as to not be sitting ducks in front of certain offensive threats and limit the pool of mons that wanna be out in front it of to ease prediction. These factors combined make your point that “no one runs jolly on z wild charge it’s only on screens” pretty silly as well all things considered. Z tbolt is easily kokos least common set at the moment besides maybe scarf and you’d be well served to do actual research into the pokemon you’re making statements about instead of making very flawed assumptions off of usage statistics

Ok, let's try to look more into the stats. Dazzling Gleam is used in about 35% of all Koko sets and it's a move I think we can both agree that is used almost exclusively on the Specs set. Electrium Z is Koko's most used item at 21% and Specs sits in 3rd with around 17% usage.

Wild Charge on the other hand is only used in 18% of all Koko sets and while I agree that the vast majority of Wild Charge sets run Electrium Z, the math just doesn't add up since it's move usage only makes up slightly more than half of the usage that Dazzling Gleam gets. If Dazzling Gleam is Used in 35% of sets and Specs is used around 17% of the time (also giving you the benefit of the doubt and not counting the times a different move like HP Ice or Roost gets used over Dazzling Gleam in the Specs set) Then Wild Charge should be seeing higher usage than just 18% if It's really much more common than the T-Bolt set like you say it is.

 

[discoplaygames]

Ok, let's try to look more into the stats. Dazzling Gleam is used in about 35% of all Koko sets and it's a move I think we can both agree that is used almost exclusively on the Specs set.

Specs sits in 3rd with around 17% usage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Hide

That's the way they have it posted on the Usage Stats. Also, I feel If I were wrong, I know there'd be a huge line of posters who'd like nothing more than to prove me wrong instead of just posting reacts

 

[Jordy]

While I obviously don't mind any discussion here because that's the point of the thread, please try to stay on topic and don't make inaccurate analyses of stats to support your argument.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

All I'm gonna say is that it was never meant to be a discussion as to which Z set is more popular and I kinda feel Mannat was mostly nitpicking at my reply (I even stated it in my original reply as an educated guess and not an actual fact). Also, it seems neither of us can prove which set is most popular or else we would've gotten some straight answers by now so I will drop it and change the subject.

So someone was posting in the q@a thread about how there is a rise in Sand Teams With World Cup going on. What do you guys think this means for Hawlucha?

 

[JTD783]

Any community opinions on Mega Venusaur, Hoopa-Unbound, Mimikyu, and Mega Pinsir? They all just dropped, the first two to UUBL and the latter two to UU. How has the meta shifted to make this happen? In mimikyu's case, why did the low ladder come to its senses finally?

Also, Azumarill moved to OU, what's up with that?

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Any community opinions on Mega Venusaur, Hoopa-Unbound, Mimikyu, and Mega Pinsir? They all just dropped, the first two to UUBL and the latter two to UU. How has the meta shifted to make this happen? In mimikyu's case, why did the low ladder come to its senses finally?

Keep in mind, these are my thoughts.

Mega-Venusaur is still a fine choice but I think the fact that It takes up the mega slot is what has caused it drop in usage. Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse does quite a lot to it and psychic types being common has made it less effective than some other grass and poison like Tangrowth and Amoonguss. Amoonguss in particular has spore to make psychics wary of switching in. Also relying on synthesis sucks because of stuff like Rain and low PP.

Hoopa-Unbound is weird, it keeps bouncing around OU and UUBL. I think it comes down to the fact that its not very consistent. If a team has more than one pokemon with U-Turn it really struggles to do anything. Because of this, I feel most players will go with the more consistent options for wallbreakers.

Finally, this pokemon has been bad for a while now. I was never scared when I saw it in team preview and that fact that it has remained OU for so long is impressive considering how mediocre it really is. Mimikyu dropping comes down to one simple thing, its really weak and relies on Z moves to break past any neutral wall. Also steel types are everywhere so Mimikyu really can't keep up anymore.

Mega-Pinsir simply requires too much support for a mega evolution, and with Zapdos and Rotom-W being more common since Zygarde's ban has really not done it any favors. Overall, your really just better off using Mega-Medicham or Mega-Mawile instead. Because a mega restricting team building to such a degree is never appealing.

I know the post doesn't mention this but Azumarill has risen in popularity recently to the point where it is now OU. Not sure where this has come from but I can say I do fear this pokemon a lot. Its almost always gonna take out one of your mons and can even bait its defensive checks into a position where they come face to face with there own checks. Also Rain really helps it wallbreak as well. I think the best part about Azumarill is the fact that it doesn't need a Z crystal to break through the opposing team so it can actually give your team some flexibility. Also its a decent Volcarona check.

Alright I hope I've covered everything.

 

[Finchinator]

Any community opinions on Mega Venusaur,

Decent option with a lot of defensive perks, but also easy to take advantage of, which makes it useless sometimes.

Hoopa-Unbound,

Pretty poor atm. Inconsistent due to how slow and physically frail it is. Defensive typing does no favors, too.

Mimikyu,

You’re better off using a personal rubber band slingshot offensively if you want to do actual damage, but it has a niche on some more dedicated HOs due to the godsend of an ability it has.

Mega Pinsir?

Wouldn’t touch him in 2019, even with Magnezone. The metagame has too many common checks to it and it also takes a lot of support while not providing anything defensively in return. Pinsir has seen much better days.

How has the meta shifted to make this happen? In mimikyu's case, why did the low ladder come to its senses finally?

With a lot of the fringe cases, it’s just a matter of poplar teams used in the middle of the ladder growing in popularity and then eventually dying out. For example, people used that ORAS bird spam a bit more on the ladder easier this year and the Mimikyu rain as well. Now, both are not seen as much anymore. Both teams were dated and/or just plain bad in the SM metagame, but yea ladder usage dictates the tiering and that’s pretty much why they hung on for as long as they did.

Also, Azumarill moved to OU, what's up with that?

The RMTd rain team used in SPL finals and a few WCOP games. It’s a lot less consistent than classic rain with Magearna > Azumarill and it has a lot of auto-loss matchups, but there’s some upside and flash that comes alongside it that made it a cooler pick in the eyes of some.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Tournament usage is what made both Venusaur and Azumarill popular in the first place. The difference is that Menci showed Azumarill can also do equally as well in Ladder. If you look at the past months this year, Venusaur has at most risen and dropped like 2 spots always staying at around 50 in usage

 

[crystal lynn]

i mostly agree with everything mentioned abt venu, hoopau, mimikyu, pinsir, azu no. i thought the rmted rain team by menci is consistent on ladder, a lot of ho teams get overwhelmed dealing with priority from both azu and ashgren. also worth noting azu is also bulky enough to usually be able to setup on at least 1 member of those types of teams but it doesnt necessarily need to setup to be useful in those mu. its still excellent vs a decent amt of semistall to balance on higher ends on ladder, belly drum once on something like heatran or hippo and it will pick apart ferro/gastro/tangrowth/pex type cores. (its admittedly tougher if theres a venusaur but theres a taunt tornadust) can even belly drum on zapdos if ur using a bulkier spread when need be. standard steelium mag rain also is kind of weak to scarf kart which is popular on ladder since torn is offensive on that team.

i dont think im wrong in saying most of us are ladder players as in we dont get to play in biggest smogon tours and from trying out both rains on ladder, its my honest opinion the azu one is better there compared to standard one.

 

[Dj^3]

So to spark some discussion here I wanna bring up a certain play style that, through the generations, just doesn't wish to die. Staying wet in the spotlight is Rain!

Gen 7 seems to have brought rain back by giving Pelipper Drizzle. So I wish to ask you guys, what do you think about rain? Is it just brainless offense in spamming water attacks and stacking hazards so any would be checks/counters are eliminated? Or do you think it's healthy and just another play style for the meta?

(For my opinions)

Rain is everywhere is USUM:
| 33 | Pelipper | 5.645% |
| 34 | Swampert-Mega | 5.585% |
-Low ladder, mid ladder, and high ladder, there are so many variations of rain, and some really good pokemon to abuse it. The general checks for rain teams also have to be careful because rain teams are so flexible. Sure, they will always have M.Pert and Pelipper (duh), but they can easily build off of those to dealing with would-be counters.

Rain is definitely really strong, and good builds of rain are plentiful. One of my favorite, and one that still stands as a good build is Ske's "New Patek" teamM https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/new-patek.3641733/#post-7907807 . It uses some of rains biggest threats and just seeks to nuke even resisted mons. He makes valid points in the threats to the team, that really only Ferro (which can be dealt with smart play) and Pyukumuku stall can beat it. Counter-Offense from Ash-Gren also does numbers to the team, and so does Torn, which can counter spam Hurricane. I have also found that, good use of threats to common rain pokemon (Like Grassy-Terrain Scarf-Kart and Scarf-Serp) can easily turn the tides of the fight. Ofc, these pokemon only really shine once Ferro is gone, so it all just comes down to good play, as most matches do.

So what do you guys think? Is rain good or bad for the meta, and do you guys enjoy rain?

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I've been really liking this classic Heatran set that was kind of forgotten ever since Z moves came into the picture.

Sub 3 Attacks
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Moves

Since Heatran is known to force switches, this set punishes those switches because while behind a substitute it has no problem firing off its powerful attacks. Magma Storm is the preferred STAB move because it ability to trap and overwhelm Toxapex, a very important pokemon to get out of the picture. It also allows Heatran's teammates to freely switch in on a mon that Heatran can't touch without the fear of being doubled switch on. Earth Power hits opposing Heatran, Toxapex, Tyranitar, and Excadrill. It's also nice neutral coverage. HP Ice hits popular Heatran switchins like Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Gliscor. Flash Cannon can be used for decent STAB neutral coverage. Metal Sound can let Heatran break through Reuniclus and Chansey, but the loss on coverage means that It will have to rely on Magma Storms shaky accuracy to deal damage against Landorus-t and Gliscor. Toxic and Taunt are other options as well.

Now for Substitute. as stated above, it punishes switches. But it also allows Heatran to avoid taking M-Mawile's +2 Sucker Punch. Another thing to note is that Heatran's bulk is insane. I was having times where Toxapex's Scald wasn't enough to break the Sub. Theres also the fact that most people aren't prepared for this set. Since they'll assume its either Specially Defensive or Z Move.

Set Details

Max SpA with a Modest nature allows Heatran to cleanly remove Toxapex without being stall out. But it also makes Heatran a true pain while trying to get rid of the Sub. 76 Speed EVs allows Heatran to creep Rotom-W. Potentially allowing it to keep setting up Sub while hoping for a Hydro Pump miss. The rest of EVs go into Heatran's HP to make it bulky enough to still check Magearna and Clefable. Leftovers are the perfered item to allow Heatran to regain health for another Sub. However, a Z move can be used for 1 time nuke against the opponent but this mandates Grassy Terrain or Wish support to regain health for later Subs.

 

[Jordy]

In hopes of sparking some discussion, I want to talk about 2 Pokemon in the current metagame.


Heart Swap Magearna

About 2 months back, just before OLT started, I was a massive fan of Heart Swap Magearna. However, I've been really disappointed with it recently, despite its good matchup against Calm Mind users such as Magearna, Mega Latias, and Reuniclus, which have been on the rise as you probably know. This is because of how easily it is abused by the quickly rising Gliscor and Gastrodon. Although I don't really like how easily worn down it is by Spikes and repeated attacks, I've been running Assault Vest Magearna a lot more because it can actually afford to run Ice Beam.


Fightinium Z Tapu Bulu

Hide

Tapu Bulu @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 236 HP / 144 Atk / 32 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

I'll quickly go over the EV spread:

• 236 HP + 32 Special Defense EVs allow Tapu Bulu to avoid being 2HKOed by Ash-Greninja's Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump.
• 144 Attack EVs allow Tapu Bulu to OHKO 248 HP / 28 Defense Celesteela and Magearna.
• 96 Speed EVs allow Tapu Bulu to outspeed uninvested Rotom-W and Crawdaunt.

I didn't come up with the idea to run this set again, but Fightinium Z Tapu Bulu is very solid right now. Thanks to its great typing backed up by respectable bulk, Tapu Bulu obviously doesn't struggle to switch into play, and once it gets to use Swords Dance, it can be really hard to deal with for many teams right now. I especially like it on Mega Latias teams; the fact that Tapu Bulu tends to bait in Steel-types such as Celesteela, Magearna, and Mega Mawile is great because it can easily KO them all with a boosted All-Out Pummeling, making Mega Latias so much harder to deal with for these type of teams. Obviously Mega Latias is an issue for Tapu Bulu, which is why I especially like to run it with a Pursuit trapper such as Weavile. I'm not really a fan of Synthesis because it makes Tapu Bulu unnecessarily passive against Tornadus-T, which is one of the most used Pokemon right now, so it's not really something that can be afforded.

 

[MANNAT]

Kartana @ Grassium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Synthesis
- Swords Dance / Defog

While we're talking about fun sets in the current metagame, I wanted to touch on synth kart. This set has been a really nice addition to teams that want it as more of a glue mon rather than just a pure breaker for its ability to pretty consistently check SD grounds, especially chomp. I've enjoyed using fog to take away rocks against the aforementioned offensive SD users, but SD is obviously very nice with it and sd synth can absolutely abuse the shit out of ferro balances and harass toxapex along with fini among other things. Kart is one of the best mons in the tier for sure and this set is one of the more unorthodox ways of showing that off. Honestly, I feel like kart really should be banned because of how much of an absolute migraine it can be to account for during teambuilding and how it can power through basically any of its "answers" with the right set, but this is a discussion for another day.

Also for people wondering about the EVs:

What does this spread do? I’m assuming it avoids the 2HKO from unboosted Chomp EQ?

That + OHKOs offensive Garchomp with Z Leaf Blade

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

EVs: 120 HP / 136 Atk / 252 Spe

What does this spread do? I’m assuming it avoids the 2HKO from unboosted Chomp EQ?

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 128 SpD / 80 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

Gliscor has been everywhere recently and since it can switch into Heatran when the opponent knows its Leftovers. This tect lures it in a gives it the middle finger. I thought that Heatran was gonna suffer from rise of Gliscor but its made a load of Mons run Ice type coverage like AV Magearna now runs Ice Beam a lot more now because of it. This tect is also great vs Garchomp and Landorus-T so Heatran is definitely in a good spot right now.

Sadly this set gets walled by M-Alakazam. However Zam has been struggling recently due to the rise of M-Latias. So I don't really worry about it. (Zam checks are easy fits on Heatran teams anyway).

 

[Marigold]

This is a set I’ve been running quite a bit lately and I feel like it has a great spot in the metagame at the moment.

LO Torn-T

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Knock Off / Taunt
- Superpower

Fire + Fighting coverage nails every rock and steel type in the metagame that usually checks Torn-T.

• AV and Mega TTar both get ohko’d by this Superpower (the latter after rocks)
• offensive Heatran dies to Hurricane + Superpower
• CM Split Magearna easily gets 2hko’d by Heat Wave
• spdef Celesteela gets 2hko’d by Heat Wave after rocks
• spdef Mega Aggron is 2hko’d by Heat Wave after rocks

I also want to emphasize how underrated Hidden Power Ice is on LO Torn-T in the current metagame. This lets you:

• ohko Rockium Garchomp
• 2hko spdef Gliscor
• 2hko Zapdos after rocks

Furthermore, the raw power of LO Hurricane is really something else.

• Without leftovers, Reuniclus will almost always get 2hko’d even at +1 during the second Hurricane
• bold Clefable is always 2hko’d
• physdef Mew is almost always 2hko’d
• Manaphy is 2hko’d
• Mega Swampert is 2hko’d
• Mega Latios is 2hko’d

Overall, LO Torn-T is a really good answer to the typical bulky offense builds in the current metagame and deserves more love. Don’t be afraid to put the defog on something else and let this bird do the breaking!

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

So to spark some discussion in this thread, I wanted to address two mons that I’ve been using a little bit lately.

Toxic Tapu Bulu

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Atk / 144 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Protect

Toxic is a very cool option on Tapu Bulu because of two things. First, it is very consistent at getting a Toxic off as most checks (Zapdos, Tornadus, Latis, Tang, Zards and Volcarona) will be the only means of checking Bulu on the team (occasionally they might pair with Steela but that can be trapped). This can allow Bulu to pressure the opposing much easier in tandem with Kart or Ttar or whatever. The second thing is that many of those checks are levitating mons, meaning they are unaffected by Grassy Terrain’s healing effect. This can be huge for teams that like to, for example, hazard stack, as instead of switching in a poisoned Spike-immune mon, they’ll switch in a check vulnerable to Spikes (Clef and Reuni can’t really come into Bulu so eh). The rest of the set is standard with 96 Spe outrunning Crawdaunt and 20 Atk OHKOing Megazam. Good partners for this set include Kart, Ttar, Heatran and maybe other Greninja checks such as Pex. I also brought up Zone because it traps Steels that aren’t annoyed by Toxic + Superpower.

Shedinja on stall

Shedinja @ Protective Pads
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Will-O-Wisp
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

Ok, you’ve heard about this mon 100x times over but I thought I’d use this thread to describe Shed’s cool niche in the metagame. It’s job is checking a number of threats to stall, the most notable of which is Rest Manaphy lacking Toxic. However, it also walls several other threats, like CM+Split Magearna (or any Mage without HP Fire, which is uncommon), Kommo-o, all of the Tapus unless they carry correct coverage, SD Normalium Kartana, SD Gliscor, CM Mega Latias, Mega Lopunny (which is only a real threat to Sab+Chans, but helpful nonetheless), non-Fire Clef (though it can’t do anything back) and Reuni. It also brings Will-o-Wisp, which cripples the SD Grounds in tandem with Unaware. Burning Mawile on a Sucker also pretty neat, as you’re just 2 points faster than the standard spread, but I don’t recommend this unless you have a crystal ball. And that’s really the only problem I have with Shed, that it is not a brainless wall, but a calculated mon. Well that, and the fact that Sand, status and hazards make you play 5-6. In other words, run MSab with this thing, as well as at least one Defogger (I recommend two). I’ve found SpDef Kommo-o to be really nice with this guy, countering Tran, M-Gyara and Ash-Gren while using Protect to properly predict an opponent’s moves. Overall, a mon that can be inconsistent, but def not a bad choice for higher-level players or people looking to have fun.

 

[PsyducksChili]

Has there been any discussion about sun? There are people like Ske and Zaza who have “popularized” sun, and even if it’s a mediocre weather, it still has a spot in the metagame at the moment.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I would like to talk about a form of trapping thats amazing in the current metagame.

Pursuit


​

Why is Pursuit so good?

Pursuit is a great way of abusing M-Latias teams as trapping and eliminating it can turn threats like Mega Charziard-Y into monsters that can tear teams apart. They can also abuse U-Turn users and physically frail Pokemon like Hoopa-U and Tapu Lele.

The Pursuit Users


Both Mega and Regular Tyranitar are probably the most common pursuit users in the tier. Mega Tyranitar is crazy good role compression, Stealth Rocks, Wallbreaker, and of course, Pursuit. It ability to switch in and abuse Tornadus-T (watch out of Focus Blast) is crazy good in this meta. Regular Tyranitar is also pretty good. Assault Vest can trap Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios from full. Choice Band is a powerful wallbreaker that can blast Mega Latias out of existence and dent anything that doesn't resist.


While it struggles with Magearna and Mega Mawile, Weavile has proven to be a good choice on Balance teams that need a fast wallbreaker with Pursuit to trap annoyances to the archetype. Weavile's biggest advantage is its speed stat allowing to outspeed the Mega Latis while being able to put a lot of pressure on Jirachi. It also has a powerful knock off so any switch in will get punished in some way.


Krookodile is a niche scarf user that can outspeed Mega Alakazam while also acting as a electric immunity. Intimidate is also pretty cool for being able to sponge hits from the likes of Mega Tyranitar. However as a ground type its only real selling point is pursuit so make sure to check that your team needs it.


On more bulker teams, Alolan Muk finds itself a niche of being able to stop some powerful special attackers like Mega Alakazam and Tapu Lele. It also able to pivot into Ash-Greninja. It also has Poision Point and Moves with a good chance to Poison switch ins. Poison Jab has a 51% to do so. However it pretty weak and easy to wear down so it only fits on Fat Balances and Semi Stalls that provide cleric support.


Overall I think pursuit is amazing weapon against a ton of teams that rely on Mega Latias to wall certain threats like Heatran and Mega Charziard Y.

 

[sunbhie]

Is there some way we can suspect test M sableye?

It is a huge problem in the OU metagame right now and for a bunch of different reasons. It heavily centralises the hazard game, shutting out so many hazard setters and forcing balance teams to run SR Clefable if they even want to get rocks up against it. The support it provides to teams is incredible too and when you couple that with its ability to shut out almost all hazards and support from teammates, it's insanely restricting in terms of handling it and has such a large strain on teambuilding.

Essentially, Sableye makes stallbreaking a much more matchup-based process than it ever was. What happened before was a player could pressure a stall team down by setting up hazards and double switches. If you predicted a switch in to something, you could double out into the appropriate threat, and get 12.5% on whatever just came in, which could be crucial for bringing it in range of being 2hko'd on the switch in. Now, predicting a switch becomes useless if there is no reward for doing so, which is what a hazardless game vs a stall team does. Without the opportunity for hazards, you are simply left with the 6 pokemon in your party, and what is worse, they all work as individuals, rather than as a team. What I mean by this is that one pokemon which can effectively remove checks and counters for another does not work well if the opposing player can just keep switching out into their counter for each with no repercussions. It's really uncompetitive as many teams simply cannot beat stall no matter how well they play. Seeing how we got a sleep ban this late in gen 5, I don't see why we can't do another suspect test for this pokemon.

 

[GoTE_Heartless]

Is there some way we can suspect test M sableye?

It is a huge problem in the OU metagame right now and for a bunch of different reasons. It heavily centralises the hazard game, shutting out so many hazard setters and forcing balance teams to run SR Clefable if they even want to get rocks up against it. The support it provides to teams is incredible too and when you couple that with its ability to shut out almost all hazards and support from teammates, it's insanely restricting in terms of handling it and has such a large strain on teambuilding.

Essentially, Sableye makes stallbreaking a much more matchup-based process than it ever was. What happened before was a player could pressure a stall team down by setting up hazards and double switches. If you predicted a switch in to something, you could double out into the appropriate threat, and get 12.5% on whatever just came in, which could be crucial for bringing it in range of being 2hko'd on the switch in. Now, predicting a switch becomes useless if there is no reward for doing so, which is what a hazardless game vs a stall team does. Without the opportunity for hazards, you are simply left with the 6 pokemon in your party, and what is worse, they all work as individuals, rather than as a team. What I mean by this is that one pokemon which can effectively remove checks and counters for another does not work well if the opposing player can just keep switching out into their counter for each with no repercussions. It's really uncompetitive as many teams simply cannot beat stall no matter how well they play. Seeing how we got a sleep ban this late in gen 5, I don't see why we can't do another suspect test for this pokemon.

Doesn't M-Sable lose to M-Lopunny, M-Diancie and Mimikyu? Not to mention Clefable, Magearna, and MB Excadrill?

 

[volx757]

Doesn't M-Sable lose to M-Lopunny, M-Diancie and Mimikyu? Not to mention Clefable, Magearna, and MB Excadrill?

Also not to mention mawile, heatran and any competent z-move user, yes.

 

[sunbhie]

Doesn't M-Sable lose to M-Lopunny, M-Diancie and Mimikyu? Not to mention Clefable, Magearna, and MB Excadrill?

And lopunny gets completely walled against pex, diancie gets walled by chansey, unless they're worn down by entry hazards, which you can't put against m sableye.

The only pokemon that can set rocks against sableye are diancie, clefable, and mold breaker excadrill. Which further supports my point that M sableye is over centralizing and forces you to put one of these 3 pokemon on your team to ever set entry hazards against it.

 

[GoTE_Heartless]

And lopunny gets completely walled against pex, diancie gets walled by chansey, unless they're worn down by entry hazards, which you can't put against m sableye.

The only pokemon that can set rocks against sableye are diancie, clefable, and mold breaker excadrill. Which further supports my point that M sableye is over centralizing and forces you to put one of these 3 pokemon on your team to ever set entry hazards against it.

Zapdos checks Pex, Chansey is checked by anyone with knock off or taunt (e.g. Mandibuzz). M-Sableye loses to fairy type wall breakers and sweepers.

Not to mention one very important factor in your argument: those checks came from the top of my head, and there are more options still.