USM UU C&C Discussion Thread

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
By new, it literally means being allowed in the tier for a very short period of time. Moltres has been around for quite a while; it's just that only recently did that specific set start seeing more use. Mega Slowbro was only unbanned in the recent suspect test and hasn't even been ranked on the VR yet (which we base what mons we do analyses of on)
 
I do not know if this has already been reported but the Forretress analysis presents two perfectly identical sets (and there are also no differences between the respective explanations). Incidentally, as it was a D-rank in UU, the analysis should look more like that of Donphan or Jolteon in RU: UU per use but strongly discouraged to use.
 

Stoward

Ah, you're finally awake
Well in all honesty, I'm pretty sure the only reason said analysis existed in the first place was due to the fact that the mon was in the tier by usage. Honestly the better approach is probably to remove uu analysis entirely if we truly want to discourage people from using the mon.
 

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I do not know if this has already been reported but the Forretress analysis presents two perfectly identical sets (and there are also no differences between the respective explanations). Incidentally, as it was a D-rank in UU, the analysis should look more like that of Donphan or Jolteon in RU: UU per use but strongly discouraged to use.
The duplicate sets was likely just a copy/paste error. The entire analysis will be removed since it dropped to RU and has no significant use in the tier. As far as the way it's written, that varies by the writer, but as long as the its place in the meta is accurately depicted, there's no reason to force a certain style on someone.
 
Quick question (a little in the same vein as my previous post): among the few RUBLs (which in some way belong to the big family of UU mons), two are a priori totally useless (not even rank C- in the VRs) : it's
Sprite_6_x_632.png
Durant and
Sprite_6_x_571.png
Zoroark. Nevertheless will they have a strategic analysis in the near future? I would use the same formula used for Donphan and Jolteon: "UU by technicality but which is strongly discouraged to play".
 

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
They would not, as they aren't UU by technicality. Them not being RU is totally based on RU tiering, which is irrelevant to us. As far as we are concerned, they're RU.
 
They would not, as they aren't UU by technicality. Them not being RU is totally based on RU tiering, which is irrelevant to us. As far as we are concerned, they're RU.
So it's quite conceivable that they will have no analysis for Gen 7? I thought at the base that one necessarily added an analysis in the tier where the mon is playable (as depreciative as it is). Coming from watching the ORAS VRs, Kingdra and Pangoro were also unusable but they have an analysis (on the contrary Salamence, a useless UUBL in gen 6, has no analysis in OU). Maybe tiers policy vary on this point
 
Probably gonna get moaned at for this and maybe it's not the right place but:

Does every dex entry have to be perfect and reviewed 50 times before it goes in? I only ask this because there seem to be a few extremely viable pokemon that are completely missing UU entries, as well as a lot of viable sets which are pretty common knowledge missing as well. For example I tried to find an entry for Nihilego today and found it was completely missing an entry for UU. The only set on there is an OU choice scarf set with evs meant to live a Volcorona hp ground. Nihilego has been in UU for a long time and even simple scarf + specs sets, with evs meant to give spatk boosts or speed boosts or w/e should go up pretty quickly imo - the sets/spreads are pretty obvious and the explanations are not that complicated.

Would it not make sense to perhaps split the jobs for each entry in to:
1. Overview+checks and counters (With an asap turnaround for this once the mon becomes UU, even if it's kind of wrong, with a view to change it once it becomes more settled in the meta)

2. Individual sets (every section of them: Moves, Set details, usage tips, team options - but each set is written by a separate person as opposed to one person writing all the sets)

3. Other options (which gets updated slightly each time a new set is added by the person who created the set.)

I get that literary consistency is important in an entry and you don't want it to have any spelling errors, mistakes etc. but this shouldn't take precedent over actually getting the sets out there in my opinion. I think too much emphasis is put on waiting till everything is perfect in a tier which is inherently volatile.

And before you say 'well why aren't you contributing instead of complaining' I am happy to contribute sets or explanations or whatever I just think the system as a whole is handled slightly wrong. Again not taking anything away from the organizers or contributors, I appreciate your work.
 

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Probably gonna get moaned at for this and maybe it's not the right place but:

Does every dex entry have to be perfect and reviewed 50 times before it goes in? I only ask this because there seem to be a few extremely viable pokemon that are completely missing UU entries, as well as a lot of viable sets which are pretty common knowledge missing as well. For example I tried to find an entry for Nihilego today and found it was completely missing an entry for UU. The only set on there is an OU choice scarf set with evs meant to live a Volcorona hp ground. Nihilego has been in UU for a long time and even simple scarf + specs sets, with evs meant to give spatk boosts or speed boosts or w/e should go up pretty quickly imo - the sets/spreads are pretty obvious and the explanations are not that complicated.

Would it not make sense to perhaps split the jobs for each entry in to:
1. Overview+checks and counters (With an asap turnaround for this once the mon becomes UU, even if it's kind of wrong, with a view to change it once it becomes more settled in the meta)

2. Individual sets (every section of them: Moves, Set details, usage tips, team options - but each set is written by a separate person as opposed to one person writing all the sets)

3. Other options (which gets updated slightly each time a new set is added by the person who created the set.)

I get that literary consistency is important in an entry and you don't want it to have any spelling errors, mistakes etc. but this shouldn't take precedent over actually getting the sets out there in my opinion. I think too much emphasis is put on waiting till everything is perfect in a tier which is inherently volatile.

And before you say 'well why aren't you contributing instead of complaining' I am happy to contribute sets or explanations or whatever I just think the system as a whole is handled slightly wrong. Again not taking anything away from the organizers or contributors, I appreciate your work.
Hi so for Nihilego specifically, it's literally in the final stages of writing before it gets uploaded. There were complications with this being written as someone else used to write it. Literal consistency is barely an issue.

Every single analysis is mandatory to go through 3 quality control checks and 2 grammar and prose checks. So basically, splitting the analysis into those sections won't actually make things faster. It just makes things harder to keep track of while requiring more people to be interested (and interest in this section doesn't go very far after a while). Using the Nihilego example, you'd need 1 person to write overviews + checks and counters, 3 people to write the individual sets, and 1 person to costantly edit the other options (only 3 people are able to and have the right to do that). Each of those sections would individually require 3 qc checks and 2 gp checks. And from experience, if you're able to write out one set, it doesn't take that much more time to write out the entire analysis. It's just the first analysis that could take a while to get used to the standards.

An ASAP turnaround is understandable but it's also not something we can control because at the end of the day it's still based on the interest of users in getting it done, both from the writers and the ones checking through. We aren't just gonna abandon the protocol that every single tier follows to do it our way, a way that doesn't seem to actually have much benefits. Also, we intentionally wait before writing an analysis when a mon drops to UU because it takes time for a mon to get explored as well as potential bans. Having an overview "even if it's kind of wrong" is not an option when the ones reading are usually new people that genuinely don't know about the mon. I appreciate the input and would ofc love to speed things up but that's all I can say.
 

bigtalk

Banned deucer.
I think Crawdaunt needs an extra paragraph added to its "Checks and Counters" section.

Pokemon that resist Water- and Dark- type moves: Chesnaught, Mega Altaria, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and Primarina resist Crawdaunt's dual STAB and can threaten it out with their powerful or supereffective attacks. However, the latter two lack reliable recovery, and Hydreigon must watch out for Superpower.
 
Last edited:
I think Crawdaunt needs an extra paragraph added to its "Checks and Counters" section.

Pokemon that resist Water- and Dark- type moves: Chesnaught, Mega Altaria, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and Primarina resist Crawdaunt's dual STAB and can threaten it out with their powerful or supereffective attacks. However, the latter two lack reliable recovery, and Hydreigon must watch out for Superpower.
Thank you for the suggestion, will add soon.
 

Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
In this analysis: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/nihilego/, in the section Team option of the 1st set, there is a misprint: "Nihilego has a crippling 4x weakness to Ground and struggles to break through bulky Ground-types like Swampert, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior if not running Grass Knot;. Grass-types such as Tsareena can break through these Pokemon and also remove hazards. "
 

autumn

only i will remain
is a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
C&C Leader
In this analysis: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/nihilego/, in the section Team option of the 1st set, there is a misprint: "Nihilego has a crippling 4x weakness to Ground and struggles to break through bulky Ground-types like Swampert, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior if not running Grass Knot;. Grass-types such as Tsareena can break through these Pokemon and also remove hazards. "
I have fixed this. Nihilego is also currently being revamped to replace the current on-site analysis, so any other issues on it should be fixed when it has been uploaded.
 

bigtalk

Banned deucer.
So I've been browsing the UU analyses alot lately while making some teams, here are all of the nitpicks I've accumulated. You can feel free to apply which ones you think are relevant.

Checks and Counters
  • Scizor: Mention Steelix in Steel-types and Tentacruel/Jellicent in Water-types. Mention that Tentacruel can remove boosts from setup variants with Haze.
  • Infernape: Tentacruel, Jellicent and Slowbro should also be mentioned in Water-types.
  • Beedrill: Gligar should also be mentioned in Physically Bulky Pokemon, with the catch "although it doesn't like getting knocked off."
  • Klefki: Nidoking/queen should also get a mention, "as they are immune to Thunder Wave/Toxic, resist Play Rough and can potentially setup a sub on it."
  • Manectric: Rotom-H and Alolan Marowak (w/ Lightning Rod) should be mentioned.
  • Moltres: Rotom-H, Empoleon, and specially defensive Gastrodon should be mentioned. Rhyperior/Diancie should be mentioned in Rock-types
  • Mamoswine: Bronzong and Rotom-H should be mentioned, "although they don't like getting knocked off."
  • Terrakion: Mention Gligar and Nidoking/queen in bulky Ground-types.
Other Things
  • Volcanion: The spread should be 248 HP / 28 SpA / 16 SpD / 216 Spe, which prevents Amoonguss' Giga Drain from breaking your substitute
  • Amoonguss:
    • The spread should be 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 SpD, which lessens damage from entry hazards and burn damage (relevant because Primarina often carries Scald)
    • Now that Kommo-o is gone, Sludge Bomb should be the 4th option over Clear Smog
    • "...a Calm nature **with a spread of 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD** (from the old analysis) can be used..."
  • Altaria: The spread should be 136 HP / 188 Atk / 184 Spe, which lets it live 2 Dark Pulses from Choice Specs Hydreigon if the 1st was taken prior to Mega Evolution
  • Tentacruel: Sludge Wave should be the 4th option over Sludge Bomb, so that it is not walled by Chesnaught and can spin its Spikes away.
  • Jellicent: The spread should be 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe, so that it hits a jump point in defense.
 
Last edited:

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So I've been browsing the UU analyses alot lately while making some teams, here are all of the nitpicks I've accumulated. You can feel free to apply which ones you think are relevant.

Checks and Counters
  • Scizor: Mention Steelix in Steel-types and Tentacruel/Jellicent in Water-types. Mention that Tentacruel can remove boosts from setup variants with Haze.
  • Infernape: Tentacruel, Jellicent and Slowbro should also be mentioned in Water-types.
  • Beedrill: Gligar should also be mentioned in Physically Bulky Pokemon, with the catch "although it doesn't like getting knocked off."
  • Klefki: Nidoking/queen should also get a mention, "as they are immune to Thunder Wave/Toxic, resist Play Rough and can potentially setup a sub on it."
  • Manectric: Rotom-H and Alolan Marowak (w/ Lightning Rod) should be mentioned.
  • Moltres: Rotom-H, Empoleon, and specially defensive Gastrodon should be mentioned. Rhyperior/Diancie should be mentioned in Rock-types
  • Mamoswine: Bronzong and Rotom-H should be mentioned, "although they don't like getting knocked off."
  • Terrakion: Mention Gligar and Nidoking/queen in bulky Ground-types.
Other Things
  • Volcanion: The spread should be 248 HP / 28 SpA / 16 SpD / 216 Spe, which prevents Amoonguss' Giga Drain from breaking your substitute
  • Amoonguss:
    • The spread should be 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 SpD, which lessens damage from entry hazards and burn damage (relevant because Primarina often carries Scald)
    • Now that Kommo-o is gone, Sludge Bomb should be the 4th option over Clear Smog
    • "...a Calm nature **with a spread of 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD** (from the old analysis) can be used..."
  • Altaria: The spread should be 136 HP / 188 Atk / 184 Spe, which lets it live 2 Dark Pulses from Choice Specs Hydreigon if the 1st was taken prior to Mega Evolution
  • Tentacruel: Sludge Wave should be the 4th option over Sludge Bomb, so that it is not walled by Chesnaught and can spin its Spikes away.
  • Jellicent: The spread should be 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe, so that it hits a jump point in defense.
We'll look over these properly, but just from a cursory glance at your suggestions, I'd like to give some comments:
  • In Checks and Counters, it's not practical to list every single Pokemon within that category, especially if it's something like Water-types, so mentioning Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Slowbro under Infernape answers isn't quite necessary. We are just giving examples instead of listing all possibilities. Of course, if there is an answer in particular that deserves focus on, then we will put a bit of a spotlight on them.
    • For example, Tentacruel being able to resist both U-turn and Bullet Punch while being able to Haze is nice, so maybe that's worth consideration. Additionally, Nidoking and Nidoqueen for Klefki is not a bad idea, since they are also immune to Toxic, but again, nothing concrete yet.
  • Also note that most of these analyses were written before the popularity of Rotom-Heat shot up, so we wouldn't have mentions of them. Note taken, though.
  • Spreads will be revised as necessary, so we'll take those into consideration, but it all depends on what we're giving up versus what we're gaining. Taking a look at the Altaria spread, your scenario does seem extremely situational, so we have to see if it's actually worth it over what we have at the moment.
    • For Jellicent, jump point spreads are not written in analyses. The rationale is that if the jump point actually serves a purpose in taking specific hits, then that should be the reason for the spread. Otherwise, they are just arbitrary and does not make a difference in the utility of the Pokemon. If there is anything that the spread takes compared to what we currently have, do let us know.
 

Solaros & Lunaris

Hold that faith that is made of steel
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Revive

Per Gengar’s OO:
“Gengar can make use of Substitute, Focus Blast, and Fightinium Z to lure in and eliminate Krookodile and Empoleon.”

Should the above quote be removed due to Gengar now having a SubFightinium set? Also, you probably want to remove all mentions in Clanger (quite a few of them) because of OU stealing it.
 
Revive

Per Gengar’s OO:
“Gengar can make use of Substitute, Focus Blast, and Fightinium Z to lure in and eliminate Krookodile and Empoleon.”

Should the above quote be removed due to Gengar now having a SubFightinium set? Also, you probably want to remove all mentions in Clanger (quite a few of them) because of OU stealing it.
yes, I edited the page
 
Will there be an analyses on Mimikyu? It just got freed after the suspect test.

But just an overall info regarding the mon, it suffers because of its poor offensive typing. In a tier where Steels are capable and so commonly used , Mimikyu has a hard time breaking through common mons such as Mega Lix, Aggron, and even Scizor to an extent. Mimikyu is also outclassed by other mons such as Doublade, which provides a niche typing in Steel Ghost, giving teams an answer to staples such as Terrakion, Coballion, Mega Altaria, and other surprising threats like Lucario. Mimikyu also faces competition offensively, as other ghost such as Gengar and even Hoopa, which boasts a much better offensive stat and a better movepool. However, Mimikyu isn’t a completely atrocious mon, I can see it having niche roles within teams as a spin blocker, along with Disguise which helps it check threats such as Mega Altaria.
 

Eyan

sleep is the cousin of death
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hello there
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/venomoth/
I think this analysis is outdated, it's talking about Glisor
We'll do a more clean sweep of current analyses when wrapping up the gen as far as these minor edits go.

Will there be an analyses on Mimikyu? It just got freed after the suspect test.

But just an overall info regarding the mon, it suffers because of its poor offensive typing. In a tier where Steels are capable and so commonly used , Mimikyu has a hard time breaking through common mons such as Mega Lix, Aggron, and even Scizor to an extent. Mimikyu is also outclassed by other mons such as Doublade, which provides a niche typing in Steel Ghost, giving teams an answer to staples such as Terrakion, Coballion, Mega Altaria, and other surprising threats like Lucario. Mimikyu also faces competition offensively, as other ghost such as Gengar and even Hoopa, which boasts a much better offensive stat and a better movepool. However, Mimikyu isn’t a completely atrocious mon, I can see it having niche roles within teams as a spin blocker, along with Disguise which helps it check threats such as Mega Altaria.
Yes there will be.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Brought this up in cord, it’s a minor point but I didn’t rly get a reply so I’ll put it here too:

Current bulky SD Scizor spread: 244 HP / 16+ Atk / 148 Def / 96 SpD / 4 Spe with Bug Z first slash, lefties second

+2 252 SpA Celebi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 96 SpD Scizor: 255-300 (74.5 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Celebi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Scizor: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Is there a reason why the set doesn't just hit this benchmark? The reason given for 148 Def is to avoid 2hko from aero stone edge w/out rocks and scarf krook eq with rocks almost all the time which seem strange benchmarks to me but whatever, 248 HP / 144 Def gives the same aero odds and better krook odds, as well as a lower max roll for both.

https://pokepast.es/8aaebb6cf9d21d71 - Aero and Krook calcs

I think the spread should just be 248 HP / 16+ Atk / 144 Def / 96 SpD / 4 Spe, I also think 248 HP / 116+ Atk / 44 Def / 96 SpD / 4 Spe is worth a mention for always living Sharpedo Crunch with a rocks and a spike up while having a bit more power than the other spread. It’s what I always use anyway except for speed creep, I find the extra defense largely unnecessary. Iron Plate/Metal Coat are good options on this set too that aren't mentioned, especially if running the extra Attack.
 
Last edited:
Super small nitpick but in the SM UU Defensive set for Alomomola, since " Scald / Knock Off " is move 4 and there are no other special attacking moves on the set, shouldn't the recommended nature be Bold / Impish with a note that says to run impish nature if knock off is being used over scald?
 
Will there be a mew analysts, because it currently doesn't have one. Can't celebi have a u-turn dual stab z psychic giga drain max spe max sp attack because u can u turn on unfavorable matchups and shift momentum in your favor
 
Last edited:
Super small nitpick but in the SM UU Defensive set for Alomomola, since " Scald / Knock Off " is move 4 and there are no other special attacking moves on the set, shouldn't the recommended nature be Bold / Impish with a note that says to run impish nature if knock off is being used over scald?
This is small but something I will make an edit for as its valid enough.

Will there be a mew analysts, because it currently doesn't have one. Can't celebi have a u-turn dual stab z psychic giga drain max spe max sp attack because u can u turn on unfavorable matchups and shift momentum in your favor
The Mew analyses is currently being written by me and is going through the appropriate stages before being uploaded. U-turn NP Celebi has been seeing a lot more popularity and with Celebi's set already being revamped a few days ago, I will make an edit to accommodate that it can opt to run this.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top