Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

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Scarf xern is an A+ set. The utility and cleaning from scarf xern is certainly a step above than the likes of kyogre and salamence. What else shuts down +1 zygarde, Yveltal, ultra necro and marshadow with ease while having the niche of scarf defog AND aroma? I agree that geoxern is probably like an A- set now. It's too easy to stop it without any compromises in team building. However, it does have a benefit of being able to bluff a scarf set and surprise opponents.
 

bigtalk

Banned deucer.
Ultra Necrozma A+ >> S- Ultra is definitely better than the other mons in A+, its ability to just blow past most of its checks with +2 Z/Outrage/coverage, force mindgames with its typing and lure in targets like primals/Ho-Oh in Dusk Mane forme is unmatched. I understand that it was lowered for technical reasons due to not wanting to overcrowd the S rank, if that's the issue then why don't we just introduce an S- rank for it?
 
Ultra Necrozma A+ >> S- Ultra is definitely better than the other mons in A+, its ability to just blow past most of its checks with +2 Z/Outrage/coverage, force mindgames with its typing and lure in targets like primals/Ho-Oh in Dusk Mane forme is unmatched. I understand that it was lowered for technical reasons due to not wanting to overcrowd the S rank, if that's the issue then why don't we just introduce an S- rank for it?
This wasn't the only reason. The majority opinion in the council was already that Ultra should be A+, it simply wasn't added to the sheet in time for opinions to go on paper. Calling people back to add new votes / opinions every time something new is mentioned would get very tedious and delay updates a lot, so I put a deadline on internal nominations. Ultra going A+ was a good solution to the S rank overcrowding, but it was already deemed A+ by the council to begin with.

As for my personal opinion behind why... teams are packing 2 checks to the mon in a vast majority of cases and while it has versatility, those sets don't really change its counterplay, only what soft checks it. Yveltal / Marshadow / (Scarf) Xerneas / Mega Gengar / Mega Mewtwo Y / Arceus-Dark/Fairy / Priority - there are at least 2 of these factors on any good team, and the main out for many of these checks Ultra has is to not burst, which means its not doing Ultra Necrozma things, so why rate it S rank? If we are separating the two formes (rightfully so imo), we still have to assess the ability of them individually as much as we do when considering the forme change potential. Ultra is one of the tier's best offensive mons, but it relies on Dusk a lot. As soon as it bursts its much more vulnerable to the multiple checks every team has for it. That's A+ territory in my view, but I can't speak for other council members - although Cynara did post similar thoughts prior to the update.

As for Xerneas it will be revisited in the final update, but bear in mind the same council that put it A will be reviewing the same change back to A+. Nominations should focus on what we said when moving it and try to offer a different perspective to change our opinions. I can see where Scarf is A+ on a good day, but its a scarfer thats loaded with 3 massive roles to a team and has to choose which one every time it comes in.
 

Mega Mewtwo X -> B

Mega Mewtwo X is actually really underused, and mega mewtwo Y is alot more common, but i believe that mega mewtwo x is really good. I run a max atk adamant nature, which, though it leaves mega mewtwo x at 359 speed, breaks through a ton of pokemon, especially with either sticky web on the opponent, having a life orb mashadow on your team, or both. It has a good move pool, and can run rock tomb, poison jab, and/or fire punch to counter common threats or pokemon in the battle. Though scarf yveltal would probably murder it with oblivlion wing, mega mewtwo x is extremely solid, and can usually switch into a hit against most pokemon, as it gets decent bulk of 100 in atk and defense.

If you really wanted to be cheeky, you could even run a mixed set with mega mewtwo, as the base 190 only needs a little support, and you could run special with around 160 put into it, though i've never actually tried to run this.

mega mewtwo x, in my team, usually cleans up the opponents, as it can usually one-shot most pokemon at 50% or lower. it counters ferrothorn with fire punch, xerneas with poison jab, and can keep dd mega sala in check with rock tomb, usually letting marshadow switch in once mega mewtwo dies, forcing a switch. not only that, but since everyone expects mega mewtwo y, its use of physical attacks is usually unexpected, and can lead to wrong switches into special tanks, such as chansey, letting it die to a drain punch.

IDK, this is my opinion on mega mewtwo X, and i totally get it if you don't agree with me.
 
Mega Gyarados C+ >> B
Mega Gyarados isn't seen a lot in Ubers. It can surprass alot of Pokemon in the C+ Tier once it goes for a Dragon Dance and could 2HKO a full health Xerneas with Waterfall, as well as 2HKOing a full health PDon with Earthquake. It's very strong when used against the right pokemon.
 
Mega Gyarados C+ >> B
Mega Gyarados isn't seen a lot in Ubers. It can surprass alot of Pokemon in the C+ Tier once it goes for a Dragon Dance and could 2HKO a full health Xerneas with Waterfall, as well as 2HKOing a full health PDon with Earthquake. It's very strong when used against the right pokemon.
yes it's only a 2hko, while xern's moonblast is a ohko and don's blades is an ohko after rocks.
 

Mega Mewtwo X -> B

Mega Mewtwo X is actually really underused, and mega mewtwo Y is alot more common, but i believe that mega mewtwo x is really good. I run a max atk adamant nature, which, though it leaves mega mewtwo x at 359 speed, breaks through a ton of pokemon, especially with either sticky web on the opponent, having a life orb mashadow on your team, or both. It has a good move pool, and can run rock tomb, poison jab, and/or fire punch to counter common threats or pokemon in the battle. Though scarf yveltal would probably murder it with oblivlion wing, mega mewtwo x is extremely solid, and can usually switch into a hit against most pokemon, as it gets decent bulk of 100 in atk and defense.

If you really wanted to be cheeky, you could even run a mixed set with mega mewtwo, as the base 190 only needs a little support, and you could run special with around 160 put into it, though i've never actually tried to run this.

mega mewtwo x, in my team, usually cleans up the opponents, as it can usually one-shot most pokemon at 50% or lower. it counters ferrothorn with fire punch, xerneas with poison jab, and can keep dd mega sala in check with rock tomb, usually letting marshadow switch in once mega mewtwo dies, forcing a switch. not only that, but since everyone expects mega mewtwo y, its use of physical attacks is usually unexpected, and can lead to wrong switches into special tanks, such as chansey, letting it die to a drain punch.

IDK, this is my opinion on mega mewtwo X, and i totally get it if you don't agree with me.
Fire punch is bad in mewtwo X, you have fight STAB for ferrothorn and the move don't hit anything relevant. Please don't use that.
You should use Low kick and no drain punch. I know that is unrealiable sometimes but has 120 base power against heavy targets (the majority of legends in ubers).
Can run ice beam for Mmence (with jolly nature because the majority of Mmences are ohkoed anyway).
Jolly is the best nature for mewtwo, really need that speed for outpace a lot of important mons (ultranecrozma, arceus forms with max speed, marshadow, etc....), adamant is hard to justify.
 
yes it's only a 2hko, while xern's moonblast is a ohko and don's blades is an ohko after rocks.
True, but what i'm saying is that if you switch Mega Gyarados in to the right pokemon, It can potentially cripple a lot of pokemon. it also OHKOes Xern with waterfall after rock damage.
 
it also OHKOes Xern with waterfall after rock damage.
However, the big issue here is that Mega Gyarados is slower than Xerneas, so that's never going to happen. In fact, even with a DD boost, Mega Gyarados still underspeeds Scarf and Geomancy Xerneas, both of which are quite common. Moreover, although it won't get OHKOed from defensive Xerneas's Moonblast, it can't 2HKO it before Xerneas wears it down to death with Moonblast. To be honest, I have nothing more to say than what @Rasengen777 has already said, so I'll leave it off here before Nayrz gets mad at me.
 
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Yeah. It's still odd to me how it can be put in the same tier as Arceus Poison despite being countered by Xerneas (no offense poisonceus isnt that bad.)
 

bigtalk

Banned deucer.
Yeah. It's still odd to me how it can be put in the same tier as Arceus Poison despite being countered by Xerneas (no offense poisonceus isnt that bad.)
I think the main issue is that it takes up a mega slot, so it's just really difficult to justify using over Salamence. If it didn't it would probably be higher, since its typing is actually pretty nice offensively/defensively.

Also, responding to your earlier comment, it doesn't OHKO Xerneas after rocks damage even with very generous calcs (+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xerneas: 255-301 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
 
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Gyarados and Salamence do share their similarities. Both can take up mega slots and are countered by Xern, while their reglar forms are somewhat what you would see in OU.
 
Gyarados is basically a mence ditto. They both apply off pressure and they have good attack but mence has a way better spe stat and is doing way more dmg with double edge/return and even a facade if u get burned. gyarados dosent do much special.
 
Let's keep things on topic of VR rankings and avoid the one line posts.

The final update is in progress internally. If you have any nominations and want to see them voted on then you have until the weekend to have them heard on the voting sheet. We are aiming to have the final update live before the release of SS.
 
Ho-Oh -> Top of A

It's getting a ton of usage lately. Choice Band set hits like a truck and Ho-Oh doesn't mind recoil damage from Brave Bird due to regenerator. Sacred Fire cripples most physically offensive mons with burn, and provides excellent coverage alongside Brave Bird. Non-banded Ho-Oh is still great with options like Toxic, Whirldwind, Roost, Defog and Subsitute. Overall a very hard pokemon to counter and take down without rock type moves.

Mega-Salamence -> Bottom of A

It fails to KO most of the top Uber mons without boosting and don't get the chance to boost as often.
 

Ropalme1914

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Scolipede UR > C

I've been using Tspikes again and this thing is pretty nice. Not only I think Tspikes are pretty powerful once again since most good defoggers now are grounded with the exception of Yveltal and Ho-Oh, it also has a cool matchup against other leads due to Speed Boost + Earthquake (or Pin Missile if you want to, but that leaves it more vulnerable to Groudon and Necrozma-DM). It also can run Spikes on the same set if you think the other hazard is going to be better and has Toxic if they start with their supportceus, something that most other leads are going to struggle. Speed Boost allows it to react to other Scarf mons too, amd I think you can run a Endeavor set too, but I didn't test it. Its Poison-type also allows it to absorb Tspikes, which offense often doesn't have much for except for Mega Gengar. I for sure think it has its niches over Deoxys-S and Greninja (since they are the most similar ones to it, Cloyster works in a more different way than those) and the meta is allowing it to shine (tbh, I feel this can go even to the same ranking as Deoxys-S rn as a hazard setter, but I don't want to get ahead of myself)
 
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Symphonic Sorcerer

Banned deucer.
Probably one of the final posts for this gen, here are a few rises that I think should occur:

yveltal.png


Yvetal above Mega Gengar in S.

I think it is safe to say that Yveltal's prominence and usage have peaked towards late USM Ubers. Between its almost unmatched versatility, capable of running several potent sets such as LO, Bulky Scarf, Specs, Band, Charti, and Stallbreaker, and the fact that it has an extremely good MU against most of the tiers other top threats solidifies it as the third best mon in the tier. Many teams are forced to pack a Dark Resist to not get totally slaughtered by this thing. It is just that good.

xerneas.png


Xerneas to the bottom of A+.

While Geomancy and Scarf Xern are not as prominent as they once were, Xerneas is still a notch ahead of the other A-Rank mons. Every team in USM Ubers has to account for GeoXern while building or else they straight out lose. This alone isn't enough to warrant Xern into A+ but the same could be said for the other mons in A+ such as Ultra Necrozma and Groundceus. Scarf Xern is imo the second best scarfer in the tier, only behind Bulky Scarf Yveltal, and can give offense teams a nice form of speeed control, hazard removal, cleric, and potential status spreader (Thunder Wave anyone?) all packed into a single set. Sure you have to pick and choose what you want Xern to do in team preview, but these roles all combined into a single set imo make Xerneas too good to not be in A+.

800-u.png


Ultra Necrozma to the bottom of S.

I understand that this mon just dropped to A+, but I think it's more of a threat than any of the other mons in A+. Aside from being the single best wallbreaker in the tier, Ultra Necrozma is another mon that forces teams to run scarfers and/or Mega Gengar or else risk losing. Being able to run extremely potent sets like SD, CM, and even SR makes Ultra Necrozma versatile. However, its usual checks can be dealt with in the right kind of team structure and I personally feel Ultra Necrozma's ubiquitous nature and presence in USM Ubers makes it just too good not be in the bottom of S.

Edit: Minor changes.
 
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Ultra Necrozma to the bottom of S.

I understand that this mon just dropped to A+, but I think it's more of a threat than any of the other mons in A+. Aside from being the single best wallbreaker in the tier, Ultra Necrozma is another mon that forces teams to run scarfers and/or Mega Gengar or else risk losing. Being able to run extremely potent sets like SD, CM, and even SR makes Ultra Necrozma versatile. However, its usual checks can be dealt with in the right kind of team structure and I personally feel Ultra Necrozma's ubiquitous nature and presence in USM Ubers makes it just too good not be in the bottom of S.

Edit: Minor changes.
Post #328 goes into great detail about why Ultra Necrozma was dropped in S rank and the specifics given in that explanation hasn't changed. Its strengths and weakness definitely place it closer to A+ territory than S territory.

A message to the mods: in the last update (post #323) it was mentioned that Deoxys-A was dropped from B+ to B but it hasn't dropped on the VR. Is this a mistake or am I missing something?

mod edit: this was a mistake on our part that is now fixed, thanks!
 
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Symphonic Sorcerer

Banned deucer.
Post #328 goes into great detail about why Ultra Necrozma was dropped in S rank and the specifics given in that explanation hasn't changed. Its strengths and weakness definitely place it closer to A+ territory than S territory.

A message to the mods: in the last update (post #323) it was mentioned that Deoxys-A was dropped from B+ to B but it hasn't dropped on the VR. Is this a mistake or am I missing something?
Yes but I would like to think that Ultra Necrozma is more ubiquitous and a bigger threat than any of the mons currently in A+. We never did get to see a spreadsheet last VR regarding the opinions of each of the Council Members. But Ultra Necrozma is a mon that does not warp its team structure around it but warps other playstyles to the point that if they don't carry appropriate counter measures, it's an auto-loss. The spectacular duality of typing and surprise factor that Dusk Mane grants in its base form presents makes it difficult to guess whether you're facing Ultra or not, though as you bolded, certain choice of mons in a team structure can help overcome and defeat Ultra Necrozma's usual checks. When all is said and done, the reason for my nomination for Ultra Necrozma rising to S is similar to Xerneas rising to A+, while they undoubtedly have their weaknesses, they are significantly better than any of the other mons in the sub-rank, hence calling for a promotion.
 
Here's the final update right on time. Future updates will be covered in our old gens hub which will be remade and posted in our gen 8 forum... which is coming soon! Sheet is here, zoom to 75%, more was discussed than actually moved etc etc also note: Pearl has left the council. The same VR council will persist while we get Sword and Shield fully underway. As for when the SS VR will happen, who knows? maybe after Most Wanted...

Order Restructure

A rank is now:

Primal Kyogre
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Normal
Mega Salamence
Ho-Oh

Xerneas
Mega Salamence
Primal Kyogre
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Normal
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Fairy


Update List

Yveltal:
Moves above Mega Gengar in S
Xerneas: A >> A+ (bottom of A+)
Cloyster: B+ >> B
Deoxys-A: B+ >> B*
Skarmory: B+ >> B
Smeargle: B+ >> B
Giratina: B >> B+
Blissey: B >> B+
Ditto: B >> B+
Deoxys-S: B- >> B
Mega Diancie: B- >> C+


* This was actually decided on last update but I forgot to move it so it ended up being voted on again for the same result. whoops!

So that's us done for another generation. I'd like to thank all the contributors and council members in this thread for their efforts in getting a general consensus of the USM Ubers metagame! See you in the Sword and Shield VR... along with our new wolf friends. A moment of silence for the death of many of our legendary and mega pokemon.
 
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