Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

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Yveltal to S

Yveltal is once again proving to be one of the most difficult Pokémon to handle in UPL VII. With Dusk Mane Necro and Ultra Necro in the uppermost echelons of the tier, Yveltal is opted for a lot in team structures in order to pressure those two. However, a major trend in its advantage is players running less SR Groudon and more and more SR Dusk or even SR Ultra, which is a huge viability boost for Yveltal since none of those particular sets carry the necessary coverage to pressure Yveltal, making it a more solid check to both Necrozma forms. It is in general nigh impossible to abuse Yveltal, which is also shown in countless scenarios throughout UPL.

Another plus to its viability is the omnipresence of Arceus-Ground and the choices said Pokémon is forcing players to make in their team structures (e.g. SR SD Groudon usage has plummeted while in turn Eruption usage has skyrocketed, Spd Groudon is running Toxic a lot more often, SR Ultra Necro has emerged in order to win the hazard war against Arceus-Ground through an elevated speed tier, Spd Dusk Mane is seeing a lot of usage, Water Spout Kyogre is run a lot more often to punish Arceus-Ground defogging your hazards and to abuse it in general et cetera). Not only does Yveltal provide a useful Ground immunity to a lot of cores and team structures, it is also one of the few Pokémon around that can somewhat force Arceus-Ground out after pivoting into its Judgement.

All in all, I’d definitely say Yveltal is reaching the peak of its viability ceiling once again and is a lot more comparable to those in S rather than to those in A+.
 
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I somewhat agree with you RR, but yveltal is quite limited in its usages. there are only a couple sets you may see on any basis, being offensive yve and scarf. defensive is alright but pretty outclassed by ho-oh, and physical is pretty lackluster as well, leaving only slight variety to what it may run. other S tier mons, such as necrozma p-don and mega gengar can run quite a few sets equally as viably, and are never able to be reliably prepared for. For example, perish trap mega gengar can be a death sentence for stall, its normal offensive is very scary as well. p-don runs essentially whatever tf it wants. double dance, mixed polish, specially defensive, etc. necrozma can SD sweep, double dance, autotomize weakness policy, specially defensive, offensive rocks.

Not trashing on yve, not at all, but it has a xern esque issue. it is somewhat limited in its usefulness, and therefore makes it less slotable and viable than the goliaths such as dusk mane and p-don.
 
Just saw some of these posts but the only one I agree with is Scizor from A- to B. I'm not sure why it's ranked so high. With standard geoxern becoming more common now it can't even check it properly without the risk of getting hp fired. It provides some utility, momentum as a u-turner, and the curse set does really well vs stall, but is that really enough for A(-)? I feel like with everything and their mother now having access to defog, that niece is also gone. I guess the toxic immunity is nice, but that's about where it ends. So to state again, Mscizor from A- to B or B-

As for the Waterceus mention, I think it's fine where it is, especially with it being one of the more solid rp don answers and probably the most reliable arceus on any balance, besides groundceus.

Yveltal I think is fine where it is at the top of A+, as fairies are still very prominent, and pretty much on every team even if yveltal wasn't present.

I feel like Nagandel should move up to top of B or even somewhere in the bottom/middle of B+, as it shreds apart balance with the right support, and once it has a speedboost offense says pretty much goodbye as well.

I don't really see the point of arceus-grass in this gen besides checking pogre and non-cm waterceus, so I suggest to put it down in C with Arceus-Dragon and Poison.

I also believe that with the right support an offensive arceus-ice can be a threat, despite the presence of dusk-mane, to rank it somewhere in C- as opposed to D.


Edit: Move Ferro down to top/mid B+ as spout ogre is getting more and more common, along with the aforementioned geoxern. It defenitely has a good place in this metagame, but I don't agree with the top of A- It's bottom of A- at best.
 
Just saw some of these posts but the only one I agree with is Scizor from A- to B. I'm not sure why it's ranked so high. With standard geoxern becoming more common now it can't even check it properly without the risk of getting hp fired. It provides some utility, momentum as a u-turner, and the curse set does really well vs stall, but is that really enough for A(-)? I feel like with everything and their mother now having access to defog, that niece is also gone. I guess the toxic immunity is nice, but that's about where it ends. So to state again, Mscizor from A- to B or B-

As for the Waterceus mention, I think it's fine where it is, especially with it being one of the more solid rp don answers and probably the most reliable arceus on any balance, besides groundceus.

Yveltal I think is fine where it is at the top of A+, as fairies are still very prominent, and pretty much on every team even if yveltal wasn't present.

I feel like Nagandel should move up to top of B or even somewhere in the bottom/middle of B+, as it shreds apart balance with the right support, and once it has a speedboost offense says pretty much goodbye as well.

I don't really see the point of arceus-grass in this gen besides checking pogre and non-cm waterceus, so I suggest to put it down in C with Arceus-Dragon and Poison.

I also believe that with the right support an offensive arceus-ice can be a threat, despite the presence of dusk-mane, to rank it somewhere in C- as opposed to D.


Edit: Move Ferro down to top/mid B+ as spout ogre is getting more and more common, along with the aforementioned geoxern. It defenitely has a good place in this metagame, but I don't agree with the top of A- It's bottom of A- at best.
Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt ferrothorn beat BOTH of those? Those arent valid reasons to move down ferrothorn. I would understand more if you said something about its crippling passivity vs necro forms and banded Ho-Oh ruining its day, but mentioning spout ogre and geoxern becoming more prominent only means that ferrothorn will rises FARTHER to help check these otherwise dangerous pokemon.
 
Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt ferrothorn beat BOTH of those? Those arent valid reasons to move down ferrothorn. I would understand more if you said something about its crippling passivity vs necro forms and banded Ho-Oh ruining its day, but mentioning spout ogre and geoxern becoming more prominent only means that ferrothorn will rises FARTHER to help check these otherwise dangerous pokemon.
It guess it somewhat checks spout ogre? To clarify, spout ogre pretty much always runs calm mind, which beats ferro. And xerneas just OHKOs with hp fire, which all geoxern run unless you want to deviate from the norm. Even unboosted it 2hitKOs.
 

pulsar512b

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Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt ferrothorn beat BOTH of those? Those arent valid reasons to move down ferrothorn. I would understand more if you said something about its crippling passivity vs necro forms and banded Ho-Oh ruining its day, but mentioning spout ogre and geoxern becoming more prominent only means that ferrothorn will rises FARTHER to help check these otherwise dangerous pokemon.
Xern can run focus blast/hp fire for ferro, and i think he's talking about the cm+spout ferro lure set.
 
Probably, but even CM needs a few boosts to dispatch ferro. even then, ferro is able to whittle down kyogres HP and weaken spout, while also stalling it out. (my b with xern tho, that wasnt right)
 
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 250-295 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 123-144 (34.9 - 40.9%) -- 60.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It cm's on the switch and gets 2shot. Even if it doesn't you do (over) half and go to your Pdon or whatever your free switchin is. Next time it can't come in. Not saying it's unviable as an ogre check now, but it's definitely not as reliable as it once was.
 

TheUndeclared243

Banned deucer.
Ferrothorn can counter Water Spout Primal Kyogre if (and only if) it has Protect, because after two rounds of Leftovers recovery, you can live the second Water Spout, and proceed to use Leech Seed, weakening the opposing Kyogre's Water Spout and healing yourself at the same time. Paired with Protect, it's very easy to get your HP back up to a serviceable level, while wearing the opposing Kyogre down. If you are running Protect on Ferrothorn, you turn a fair Kyogre counter into one of the best in the game, at the expense of either a coverage attacking move or a status move. The problem can be alleviated with a good team. By giving up Toxic for Protect, you weaken your 1v1 matchup against EKiller. The problem is fixed by fusing a different EKiller solution into your defensive backbone. By giving up Gyro Ball for Protect, you become a little less reliable against Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy (the former of which you were never a check for anyway, and the latter of which you're still a solid answer to, provided the opposing Arceus-Fairy is not running Fire Blast). The problem is fixed by running another Steel-type alongside Ferrothorn, or some other answer to the aforementioned Fairies.

This, of course, is the minus point against Ferrothorn's viability. The fact that you struggle from textbook 4MSS when trying to check Kyogre, have dual coverage, utilize Spikes, AND pack a status move is easily Ferrothorn's biggest ailment. However, while its viability, by definition, is brought down by the fact that it needs other Pokemon around it to do all of the above, it is still very good at what you want for it to do, and it fits very easily into most defensive backbones. Therefore, I think Ferrothorn is fine where it is.
 
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Ferrothorn can counter Water Spout Primal Kyogre if (and only if) it has Protect, because after two rounds of Leftovers recovery, you can live the second Water Spout, and proceed to use Leech Seed, weakening the opposing Kyogre's Water Spout and healing yourself at the same time. Paired with Protect, it's very easy to get your HP back up to a serviceable level, while wearing the opposing Kyogre down. If you are running Protect on Ferrothorn, you turn a fair Kyogre counter into one of the best in the game, at the expense of either a coverage attacking move or a status move. The problem can be alleviated with a good team. By giving up Toxic for Protect, you weaken your 1v1 matchup against EKiller. The problem is fixed by fusing a different EKiller solution into your defensive backbone. By giving up Gyro Ball for Protect, you become a little less reliable against Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy (the former of which you were never a check for anyway, and the latter of which you're still a solid answer to, provided the opposing Arceus-Fairy is not running Fire Blast). The problem is fixed by running another Steel-type alongside Ferrothorn, or some other answer to the aforementioned Fairies.

This, of course, is the minus point against Ferrothorn's viability. The fact that you struggle from textbook 4MSS when trying to check Kyogre, have dual coverage, utilize Spikes, AND pack a status move is easily Ferrothorn's biggest ailment. However, while its viability, by definition, is brought down by the fact that it needs other Pokemon around it to do all of the above, it is still very good at what you want for it to do, and it fits very easily into most defensive backbones. Therefore, I think Ferrothorn is fine where it is.
Well, the problem with the protect variants is that they still lose to Calm Mind + Water Spout. If you switch into Water Spout and Kyogre Calm Minds on the following turn then Ferrothorn is dead (+1 Water Spout does 71 - 83.8% ). Of course, you can read this and go for Leech Seed immediately (which is already a risk), but you still lose the 1v1 in the long run (+1 Origin Pulse deals 51.9 - 61.3% ), which is a big problem considering that one of the main reasons to run Ferrothorn is to reliably check Kyogre.
Really, the best way for Ferrothorn to check Kyogre is to run Power Whip, so you can realiably kill it (Though if you don't run Protect+Whip than you really need to find a way to chip its health first, so Water Spout isn't at full strength... but that just goes back to the movepool issues).
Even if Kyogre is running Thunder>Calm Mind, it can still cause a lot of problems for Ferrothorn, since it can Water Spout->Switch out. Even if you read the switch and Leech Seed, you are still getting chipped, which is an issue next time you have to switch in.
I completely agree that Ferrothorn's main problem is its 4mss. I'm not sure if it should drop or not, but it seems better than everything in B+ except Giratina-O (who should be A- anyway).

Edit: Oops, messed up and used regular Kyogre in the calculations before, but they're fixed now. The points still stand.
 
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Thread Rules

  • Post intelligently. Random posts saying things like "X should be X rank" without context or supporting evidence isn't gonna fly here.
  • Be civil when debating with other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated and moderators will be keeping a special eye on this thread in particular to keep shitposting to a minimum - consider this your warning!
  • Avoid bringing up ban/suspect discussions in this thread. Any and all possible upcoming tiering policy decisions will be brought up from the Ubers tier leaders themselves, and it won't be done in this thread.
  • Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them. Make sure the replays are of good matches, from high ladder or high level tournaments. It's hard to take a bottom of the ladder replay seriously when discussing a Pokemon's viability.
  • A Pokemon not Ubers by tiering may require a skeleton or analysis in our C&C subforum before being placed on this list, unless the council all agree that it is viable anyway.
  • Nomination posts should include where in the sub-rank the Pokemon will place after the move. This is important to maintain an accurate sorting by viability list.
The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered by viability, rather than alphabetical order. D rank is an exception, as it is a ranking simply to cover Pokemon not viable in the metagame, but are Ubers by tiering.

Nominations will be run by our Viability Council before being accepted into the rankings. They may also make their own nominations or movements, but these will come with explanations typically shown via spreadsheet. The current members of the Viability Council are:

Nayrz
Serial EKiller
Melee Mewtwo
Mysterious M
iry
Cynara
Terracotta
Exiline

On-site USM dex entries will be added as links as they are completed for each Pokemon.


S Rank

S+


Primal Groudon

S

Dusk Mane Necrozma
Mega Gengar
Ultra Necrozma

A Rank

A+

Yveltal
Zygarde-C
Xerneas
Marshadow
Arceus-Ground

A

Mega Salamence
Primal Kyogre
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Normal

A-

Lunala
Ferrothorn
Magearna
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Fairy
Smeargle
Mega Scizor

B Rank

B+

Giratina-O
Toxapex
Arceus-Flying
Rayquaza
Mega Mewtwo Y
Deoxys-A
Skarmory
Cloyster

B

Klefki
Ditto
Blissey
Naganadel
Giratina

B-

Lugia
Palkia
Celesteela
Mega Sableye
Gothitelle / Gothorita
Mega Lucario
Mega Diancie
Tyranitar

C Rank

C+

Mega Blaziken
Mega Mewtwo X
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Tapu Lele
Arceus-Grass
Mega Lopunny
Mega Slowbro
Dugtrio

C

Mega Venusaur
Excadrill
Dialga
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Ribombee
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Poison
Mewtwo
Shaymin-S
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Rock
Kyurem-W
Alolan Muk
Aegislash
Wobbuffet
Mega Kangaskhan
Reshiram

C-

Darkrai
Kyogre
Tapu Koko
Zekrom
Arceus-Electric
Pheromosa
Mega Latias
Landorus
Arceus-Steel

D Rank

If you missed the intro explaining this, D rank is for Pokemon deemed unviable in the Ubers metagame, but are Ubers by tiering. There is no viability ordering on these Pokemon for this reason, so use them at your own risk.

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Psychic
Blaziken
Deoxys
Deoxys-D
Genesect
Groudon
Mega Metagross
Solgaleo
Lucario should be added as his mega has a great attack stat and abilit with STAB.If used correctly Lucario Can use a sword dance and wreck teams with STAB eg.Close combat, meteor mash,bullet punch
 
I mean to get him higher as he is really underrated because his STAB attacks are doubled which I find amazing in battle
 

Ropalme1914

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I mean to get him higher as he is really underrated because his STAB attacks are doubled which I find amazing in battle
Everyone knows what Lucario does and that Adaptability means that its STABs are stronger, it was ranked with that in mind. I'm open to hear what other people think about it since I see that some still like to use it, but I don't think that it should rise right now; webs are not as strong as before, and even there Diancie is more used due to SR + Magic Bounce, along with Ultra Necrozma being a better Sticky Web sweeper, Arceus-Ground is pretty dominant in this meta, Salamence and Gengar are hard to compete with as Megas on offensive teams (especially Salamence), and Necrozma-DM already fills the role of a offensive Steel-type on a team.
 
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TheUndeclared243

Banned deucer.
Yes, Mega Lucario is great at what it does, and it can demolish slow teams if it can get a free SD. Paired with almost perfect offensive STAB coverage in a metagame filled with Dark-, Fairy-, and Steel-types, along with respectable priority in Bullet Punch, and you have a formidable offensive presence in Mega Lucario. However, its current placement is best understood if you consider the definition of viability as it applies to Pokemon. On anything other than a very offensive team that can support it against faster Pokemon and resistances, Mega Lucario offers very little defensive utility, having all of the defensive synergistic drawbacks of a Steel-type (key weaknesses to Ground- and Fire-types) with almost none of the defensive synergistic advantages (namely, an inability to resist Fairy-, Psychic-, and Flying-type attacks). In other words, Mega Lucario contributes almost nothing to a team defensively, making it unviable to be splashed onto most archetypes. It’s very good at what it does in its own niche (and even then, as Ropalme1914 mentioned, it faces competition from Ultra Necrozma, which provides a Fairy resistance pre-Ultra Burst, and Mega Salamence, which provides obvious considerable defensive utility along with speed, power, and nearly unresisted STAB and coverage), but I don’t think we should oversell itself on its viability, as the term applies to this game.
 

LBDC

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the viability ranking does not make a difference between Zygarde with aura break or power construct.
indeed, it's the same pokémon but with different ability. this vision also avoids to be obliged
to write one analyise on a pokemon that nobody plays.
hoping i've been helpful.
 
Saying "Zygarde with Aura Break should be D-tier" is like saying "Ho-Oh with Pressure should be D-tier". Giving Pokémon different rankings for different Abilities would just be arbitrary and pointless.
 

Oldamar999

Tien Time
Saying "Zygarde with Aura Break should be D-tier" is like saying "Ho-Oh with Pressure should be D-tier". Giving Pokémon different rankings for different Abilities would just be arbitrary and pointless.
that's not what they were saying at all? they were claiming that zygarde 50% should have been in D tier because zygarde 50 is sort of a different Pokemon and it got banned from ou not long ago. at least that's what I am getting from it.
 
that's not what they were saying at all? they were claiming that zygarde 50% should have been in D tier because zygarde 50 is sort of a different Pokemon and it got banned from ou not long ago. at least that's what I am getting from it.
It's important to note that Complete Zygarde always starts off in its 50% form, and it changes into its Complete form through its Ability (Power Construct) when it loses enough HP. So it really is a case of saying the same Pokémon should be rated differently for a good Ability versus a shit one - what is the point?
 
It's important to note that Complete Zygarde always starts off in its 50% form, and it changes into its Complete form through its Ability (Power Construct) when it loses enough HP. So it really is a case of saying the same Pokémon should be rated differently for a good Ability versus a shit one - what is the point?
Ultra Necrozma always starts off as Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings, and it's still ranked seperately. All Mega Evolutions start off as the base forms and are considered seperate pokemon. Zygarde 50% without Power Construct is a different form, so it should be ranked seperately (due to it's recent ban from OU) in D-tier cause it's unviable and Ubers by tiering. Keep in mind, that Zygarde 50% was tiered seperately from Zygarde Complete up until it's ban from OU. If we keep all of the unviable mons that are Ubers by tiering in D-tier, then Zygarde 50% should be in in D-tier for consistency.
 
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TheUndeclared243

Banned deucer.
Zygarde-50% should be ranked, because it is Ubers by tiering. It's only not ranked because it doesn't have an analysis. It really should have an analysis, even if the analysis just says that it's completely outclassed by Zygarde-C. I have no idea why it doesn't have an Ubers analysis.
 
Zygarde-50% should be ranked, because it is Ubers by tiering. It's only not ranked because it doesn't have an analysis. It really should have an analysis, even if the analysis just says that it's completely outclassed by Zygarde-C. I have no idea why it doesn't have an Ubers analysis.
Are you going to write it then? It makes sense to me that people don't want to waste their time on a mon that essentially needs no analysis. You could throw it under D-rank but honestly, It doesn't really matter because apart from some low-ladder lords no one is going to use it anyways without power construct to back it up.
 

TheUndeclared243

Banned deucer.
Are you going to write it then? It makes sense to me that people don't want to waste their time on a mon that essentially needs no analysis. You could throw it under D-rank but honestly, It doesn't really matter because apart from some low-ladder lords no one is going to use it anyways without power construct to back it up.
I'm 99% sure that Nayrz said that there will not be an analysis for Zygarde-50%, so no, I won't write it. I think it does matter, because this viability rankings list cannot be considered comprehensive if there is a Pokemon that is Ubers by tiering that is not on the list. I'm not one to really care for semantics; I'm just giving my support to the point brought up by Zapperrix.
 
I'm 99% sure that Nayrz said that there will not be an analysis for Zygarde-50%, so no, I won't write it. I think it does matter, because this viability rankings list cannot be considered comprehensive if there is a Pokemon that is Ubers by tiering that is not on the list. I'm not one to really care for semantics; I'm just giving my support to the point brought up by Zapperrix.
It was a rhetorical question. What you're doing is nitpicking over something no one wants to dedicate time towards, because it adds 0 value to the tier.
 
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